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View Full Version : Federer Does and Did use the real Tour 90


Chie Mishe
05-24-2004, 04:26 PM
I know a person who strung Rogers sticks early this year and last year and Federer does indeed use the tour 90. Im not sure if he is going to use the real ncode, but I know for a fact that Federer does use the Tour 90, his is just alittle modififed. With the handle being abit shorter. His racket is also pretty close to even balance. He also uses a very small handle like 4 3/8 pr 4 1/8 dont remember

So there you go.

AAAA
05-24-2004, 04:38 PM
Are you telling the truth?

alexdedo81
05-27-2004, 11:45 AM
you must be joking... have you ever had a look to a Federer picture while holding his raquet? The grip size is huge... I just wonder if it is a 4 1/2 or a 4 5/8... does anyone have a clue about that?

Anonymous
05-27-2004, 01:22 PM
On his website it says he uses 4 3/8

drakulie
05-28-2004, 06:48 AM
Federer plays with a PS 85.

gofederer
05-28-2004, 09:49 AM
this seemingly perpetual question would be solved once and for all if somebody who's got access to fed's purported tour 90 measured the size of the hoop (not the area but the simple diameters) because size doesn't lie, does it?

the horizontal diameter of t90's outside hoop is 259mm while ps85's is 252mm, and the verticals are 339mm and 330mm... so, anybody?

LordRaceR
05-28-2004, 03:57 PM
Yesterday on eurosport, federer and some German commentator was talking about RG on FedEx training session on the tournament. They play a little and federer was using his old Tour90 painted racquet. I found that very interesting. Why hi is using old paint on TV when hi is supposed to promote new ncode stuff?

Verbal_Kint
05-28-2004, 05:44 PM
Are you sure that was filmed this week? I saw a Federer special last week..

Marnix

Redferrari350
05-28-2004, 09:36 PM
Drakulie, you are correct sir. I wish everyone can get it through their thick skull and stop posting this nonsense.
Federer never used tour 90. That's the bottom line.

StewieGriffin
05-28-2004, 10:39 PM
Evidence that he is(or was) using a Tour 90:
1) 19x16 string pattern
2) Throat and Bridge intersection has flanges or tapered sections. (PS 85 doesn't have this ..... and it's kind of hard to fake that. This is the smoking gun.)
3) Head is definitely bigger than the PS 85's - maybe not ... but it really looks like it is.
4) The PWS on his is the same size as the Tour 90's PWS in front of me (the creases are in the same spots in the "Wilson" logo in Yellow.http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/viewtopic.php?t=6386) I have a PS 85 and a Tour 90 side-by-side, and the PS 85's PWS is a lot smaller.

Evidence that he is (or was) using a PS 85:
1) 4 cross strings going into the Perimeter Weighting System instead of 5 like on the retail Tour 90
(.... but..... a 19X16 string pattern, and his string pattern for crosses is denser on the bottom, and wider in the middle than the retail Tour 90's, so only 4 cross strings go into the PWS and more are on the bottom.)
2) Longer Shaft above handle
(...but.... it's a shortened handle.... an easy modification to make - just mold on a shorter handle and you've got a longer shaft.)
Using Engineering Analysis, Manufacturing Knowledge, and Common Sense.
It's most likely that his is a heavily modified/customized Tour 90. The flanges (or tapers) between the throat and bridge is overwhelming evidence that a Tour 90 Mold was used. The holes are drilled differently, and a different handle was molded on.

If they modified the hole drilling pattern and the handle, they could have easily used a differently material composition in the Tour 90 mold...... We can never know what he is actually using now.... it could be NTour material, or the original Tour 90 material.

One thing I am certain of... whatever it is he is and was using was made using a Tour 90 mold (NTour uses the same mold), and he's using the same unique string pattern (drill-hole pattern), different from the retail model.

A unique 85-square-inch mold like the PS 85, but with Tour 90 flanges/tapers in the throat would be way too much trouble to make just for him... but I wouldn't be surprised.

Conclusion: Whatever he is using is a freakish mutation/blend of different racquets... depends on what your definition of a Tour 90 is...

PrestigeClassic
05-29-2004, 03:55 AM
Excellent analysis. I would like to add that it was evident in a close-up picture of Fed's Masters Cup-winning racket that the make-up is boxier than the retail Tour 90, and is more like that of the 6.0 85. In other words, the sides do not bulge out as much, corners are sharper, and it is more like right-angles. It is noticeable around the throat. My guess is that this adds feel at the expense of not-so-much stability.

Also, the cross-section of the neck on Fed's racket looks about 2-3 mm smaller than on the retail Tour 90, and is similar to that of the 6.0 85. Again, I believe the same principle at work here. If you can't notice this from a close-up picture, you can denitely point it out when you scrape away some of the soft polyurethane around the neck. The neck of the frame has a completely different shape to it.

These have probably very minute playing differences, but additional variables that Fed dare not mess with at the same time. It seems like Fed is mindful of small details like that since he varies his racket mass slightly according to court surface.

These things, along with the string pattern density being more like that of the 6.0 85, just makes it seem like Fed was looking for a 6.0 85 that was more like 90 sq. in. And that is a far, far cry from the retail Tour 90.

That being said, whether Fed has n-code or not is probably something that only some obscure engineer at Wilson knows. First of all, it's not like n-code was born overnight, and not only that, but last week, too. Furthermore, if Fed is employing n-code, who says it is in the same density and location as on the retail n-code? It would be nice if it was, because I think Fed would know a thing or two as to what works in a tennis racket and what doesn't. Obviously, more than 99 percent of the public would develop arm problems if they were to swing Fed's racket as much as he does, but the retail n-code *should* still employ some of Fed's (current) preferences in it. I mean, come on, things like where to put n-code and how much should be pretty universal. I just think it's a bad idea that on retail sticks Wilson changed the string pattern density to more closed among the center mains/crosses. It makes the racket play even more inconsistently and harsh. Due to its small sweetspot, it could also use slightly more power according to most people. But Wilson couldn't change the string pattern entirely to that of Fed's rackets because some stringer said that he had to tube the bottom one or two crosses while stringing them hybrid.

drakulie
05-29-2004, 09:34 AM
Redferrari350, you and I seem to be some of the few people that do not believe this nonsense.

perfmode
05-29-2004, 09:38 AM
Someone needs to be brave and steal one of his racquets so all this speculation can end and we can have a real answer.

Hewittfan22
05-29-2004, 10:56 AM
i will steal one if u give me 5 dollars

StewieGriffin
05-29-2004, 11:04 AM
I think they should offer a special edition racquet that is the same as his - I think some people would like a bit more spin with a wider string pattern. And there are a lot of racquet freaks reading this post. They could charge more, and it would another way to price discriminate and increase profits.

There is also a distinct difference in the PWS of his racquet and the PS 85's. The PS 85's PWS has sharper angles to it, while Fed's racquet's PWS blends into the head at flatter angles.

I believe that the PWS along with the throat flanges (the upper 2 corners of the inner triangle of the neck) is completely convincing evidence that Fed's racquet was made using the same mold as the Tour 90.

It is easy to drill holes in different locations on a racquet - it's probably computerized and reprogrammable. However, I imagine it is much more difficult to recreate a new mold that's 85 square inches but with flanges and PWSs just like the Tour 90's.... and even if that's the case - It's no longer a PS 85, nor is it a Tour 90.

-------Think about this-------
If he wanted an 85 sq in. racquet, wouldn't they just have used a PS 85 mold?

.... instead of going through the trouble of creating a 85 sq.in. mold with flanges and PWSs similar to a Tour 90, and still not convincing people ??? And if they went through the trouble of doing that, as you're suggesting - It's no longer a PS 85, nor is it a Tour 90.

If you're not saying this, you're saying that they chipped away or carved out part of a PS 85 to make it look like a Tour 90 with the flanges. What happens to a racquet when you remove a large chunk of graphite???

PrestigeClassic
05-30-2004, 03:29 AM
Stewie, are you talking to me? In my post I'm not saying that Fed is playing the 6.0 85. From pictures, it is clearly an ever-so-slightly modified Tour 90, with the minute modifications making its characteristics more like the 6.0 85's. ..except for the more noticeable differences that you pointed out, to make it more believeable, in my opinion. I agreed with your post and just added one or two details to it.. Just because Fed's stick has the same PWS bulges and other such noticeable differences, doesn't mean it was made using the exact same mold. You can see this more clearly if you chip away at some of the handle, as I said. It is CLOSEST TO THE TOUR 90, HOWEVER!!! It is still far and away from the retail Tour 90! 357g with a close-to-even balance??

You are on the right track in that Fed is not playing 85 sq. in., so you can stop with these assumptions: *if* he was playing with this, and so on! Leading up to the switch Fed even said he wanted a slightly bigger head so he would shank less balls on a windy day on clay . . .

StewieGriffin
05-30-2004, 02:19 PM
Gotcha!!

gregraven
06-01-2004, 07:59 AM
Drakulie, you are correct sir. I wish everyone can get it through their thick skull and stop posting this nonsense.
Federer never used tour 90. That's the bottom line.
Hmm. I spoke with one of Wilson's top racquet designers, one who worked directly with Federer, and he told me that it was ridiculous to think that Federer did not use the Tour 90, as it had been designed expressly for him.

drakulie
06-01-2004, 08:22 AM
I spoke with one of Wilson's top racquet designers, one who worked directly with Federer, and he told me that it was ridiculous to think that Federer did not use the Tour 90, as it had been designed expressly for him.

I spoke to the same guy you are referencing above, and he told me he has no recollection of ever telling you that.

Federer plays with a PS 85!

dax_q
06-01-2004, 08:48 AM
That is hilarous drakulie. post of the year

ProStaffTour90
06-01-2004, 09:02 AM
Totally wrong, but wholely hilarious!!!

BreakPoint
06-01-2004, 11:03 AM
Hmm. I spoke with one of Wilson's top racquet designers, one who worked directly with Federer, and he told me that it was ridiculous to think that Federer did not use the Tour 90, as it had been designed expressly for him.

I thought the ONE THING that we were all in agreement on was that the Tour 90 was originally designed specifically for PETE SAMPRAS, and NOT specifically for Federer. That's why the Tour 90 is predominately black in color as Pete told Wilson that he will only play with a racquet that was predomintely black. Wilson made it swing heavier than the PS 6.0 85 so that Pete wouldn't have to use so much lead tape on the head. Of course, this was all before Pete abruptly decided to retire. When that happened, I think Wilson made Federer the poster boy to promote the new Tour 90. Had they made the Tour 90 for Federer to begin with, they would have made it red in color as I understand that's Federer's favorite color. That's why the nSix-One Tour is red and white (like the Swiss flag). This one IS supposed to be made for Federer.

pstour90
06-04-2004, 07:24 PM
great job analyzing, and i'm sure most of what you guys are saying is true. 90 in head, flanges, etc all points to the tour 90 mold. 2 huge and decisive differences, however, between his stick and the marketed T 90 are: 1) the weight of his stick (probably about an ounce above the T90, like 13.7 to 14 oz) and 2) the material. i guarantee you hes not messing around with hyper carbon junk (to pros its junk). im sure hes using a 100% graphite racquet. you can also see in a picture of an autographed racquet of his posted on another post, that he doesnt have the double braid either on his racquet. the material, as well as the weight, is totally different.

PrestigeClassic
06-04-2004, 09:36 PM
great job analyzing, and i'm sure most of what you guys are saying is true. 90 in head, flanges, etc all points to the tour 90 mold. 2 huge and decisive differences, however, between his stick and the marketed T 90 are: 1) the weight of his stick (probably about an ounce above the T90, like 13.7 to 14 oz) and 2) the material. i guarantee you hes not messing around with hyper carbon junk (to pros its junk). im sure hes using a 100% graphite racquet. you can also see in a picture of an autographed racquet of his posted on another post, that he doesnt have the double braid either on his racquet. the material, as well as the weight, is totally different.

1.) How would you know the weight of Federer's racket? Someone else took it to a scale and it actually weighs less than a Tour 90, especially considering the overgrip. The difference is the BALANCE.

2.) Do you make Federer's rackets? How else would you know their composition?

3.) How can a picture show whether or not a racket has a "double braid"? Where exactly is this picture?

4.) Why do you think Federer does not like Kevlar? His old 6.0 85 surely had Kevlar, and quite a bit more than none--20 percent.

5.) Even if Federer was playing with HyperCarbon, the racket could still be 100 percent graphite. HyperCarbon is graphite. HyperCarbon is carbon. Graphite is carbon. What you're saying is that after viewing a picture that was "posted on another post" somewhere, you know what probably only a few engineers and racket makers at Wilson knows. Have pros come up to you saying that HyperCarbon is junk?

pstour90
06-07-2004, 08:22 AM
notice half the pros "using" the liquidmetal prestige use the prestige classic? they dont want to mess around with these new materials (i dont know why exactly, but they obviously dont in that case) kevlar part, probably true, it may contain some; who weighed his racquet? i seriously doubt hes using that light of a racquet.

pstour90
06-07-2004, 08:29 AM
http://users.adelphia.net/~racquetdoctor/images/P1040138.JPG

on my t90 the double braid is clearly visible around the throat, not there on his.

@wright
06-07-2004, 08:43 AM
I think he meant that Federer wouldn't mess around with these "flash in the pan" materials that are only in 1 series of racquets and are replaced the next year. Kevlar is a tried and true material found in many classic frames.

PrestigeClassic
06-08-2004, 02:49 AM
Who weighed his racket? I thought it was the same person that owns/owned that racket. Along with that picture there was some specs on the old TW boards. It doesn't really swing that light when the balance is just a few points head-light, and I assume that is with the overgrip laid. That would rip my shoulder a new ***hole. But for Federer, maybe he likes a "light", whippy racket, with swingweight "only" around 350, or whatever was posted? You can't see Double Braid because Fed's racket seems to have black paint on it, whereas the Tour 90 does not. At least, that's what it seems.. I don't know, how can you tell which braids are HyperCarbon, graphite, and Kevlar? And what material is in the flat blocks around the white W in the red box on the neck? As far as Fed goes, I still say, who other than the people that help make the rackets really knows if Fed is employing HyperCarbon or nano or anything? And if so, how much and where? Top pros in most all sports are open to trying new things all the time to see what gives them an edge. They are the optimal testers. Personally, I think one potential good thing about HyperCarbon is that it makes the frame as stable as adding lead tape while actually savign weight. There's been crazier things that have happened, like Sampras trying out the Tour 90; "weird" polyester strings becoming the norm; etc.

gregraven
06-08-2004, 08:24 AM
http://users.adelphia.net/~racquetdoctor/images/P1040138.JPG

on my t90 the double braid is clearly visible around the throat, not there on his.

I'd be a little surprised if you can actually see the double braid. A lot of racquets have graphics that make it appear that you are seeing the inner workings of the racquet, but you actually are looking at a decal. One good example of this is the i.prestige.

PrestigeClassic
06-08-2004, 11:01 AM
You're right--it is a decal--sometimes. But on the Tour 90, it appears real. It is hard to fake when you can see light reflecting at a set angle off of the braids as you turn the racket around. It would have to be a hologram or something of that nature. On the Super RD-Tour (at the hoop), same thing. The i.prestige? Until now I had no idea that Head might have intended for it to seem like the inner workings of the racket. I wouldn't know what intelligence fibers look like..

pstour90
06-08-2004, 06:53 PM
i agree, maybe black paint, but why would he want to cover it up if he used the materials (and assuming it really is the double braid, as prestige classic and i believe, not just decals). if it is paint, why would he intend for the double braid to be covered up?

jings
06-08-2004, 09:01 PM
I think the light isn't good enough in the picture to tell - certainly looking at my Tour 90 you can't always see the braiding at certain angles and light etc ...

tennisnoob
06-08-2004, 09:08 PM
enough said already, Fedex is using some "Freakish" racket we can never get our hands on!

BreakPoint
06-08-2004, 10:25 PM
LOL. Yeah, maybe Fedex doesn't really use a tennis racquet at all. Maybe it's actually some sort of highly engineered electro-mechanical device with micro motors that catches the ball and then shoots it to exactly the spot that he aims this device at. It's got an infinite number of ball trajectories, speeds, and spins pre-programmed in so all Fedex has to do is to push a few buttons on the handle and the device produces the perfect shot to the perfect location for every possible situation. :lol:

tennisnoob
06-09-2004, 02:22 AM
LOL! Sounds like Fedex is some secret agent "Triple XXX Fedex"!

epoc
06-09-2004, 08:12 AM
I once saw a test version of the Tour 90 (with test or demo in red letters) on a pro shop that had the "view" of the braid on the throat enhanced, so it looked like it was plastified, something like a visor. Well, there are many braided wilson rackets without visible braid. And, for the record, you can only see one braid, the other is an inner braid... :roll:
I find hard to believe that people are even sugesting that federer changed from a PS 6.0, double braided with kevlar, for something (custom or not) that doesn't use this tech, an all graphite...

pstour90
06-10-2004, 11:03 AM
the paint on feds is also darker than on mine, doesnt seem possible that in different light you could see the double braid, or db hologram. why would he want to cover it up?

drakulie
06-10-2004, 12:42 PM
PS 85!PS 85!PS 85!PS 85!PS 85!PS 85!PS 85!PS 85!PS 85!PS 85!PS 85!PS 85!PS 85!PS 85!PS 85!PS 85!PS 85!PS 85!PS 85!

bcaz
06-11-2004, 02:20 PM
It can't be an 85 -- it has 19 crosses.

bsandy
06-11-2004, 07:07 PM
Wilson supplies their pros with undrilled racquets that are simular to the models they are supposed to be using.

Think of it like NASCAR and get over not being able to use the sticks they use.

OBTW . . . why don't you eMail Wilson and ask them.

. . . Bud

tennisnoob
06-11-2004, 07:14 PM
I would agree with Drakulie that Fedex is using the PS 85, he's been using that racket all his life!

drakulie
06-11-2004, 11:00 PM
tennisnoob, I foresee you will become the greatest of all Jedi.

"Too small for you I am. Cut your feet off I will." --- Yoda

LordRaceR
06-12-2004, 02:51 AM
Maybe hi is using PS 85 original and the racquet was drilled in 16x19 pattern ???

tennisnoob
06-13-2004, 07:41 PM
[quote="drakulie"]tennisnoob, I foresee you will become the greatest of all Jedi.

I would like to join the dark side though....would love to do the choke hold on them stubborn ppl insisting Fedex was using the Tour 90, LOL!

rokkefella
06-14-2004, 10:54 PM
You guys are almost right... Fed uses an custom size 88 racquet, 100% graphite that is made from a modified PS 85 mold.

Why would I know this? If you hang around some major tournaments and get to know some stringers, you may even check out some pro's racquets from time to time.

rokkefella
06-14-2004, 10:54 PM
....oh and it IS really heavy. Probably somewhere in the 14-14.5 oz. range...maybe even more

tennisnoob
06-14-2004, 11:12 PM
Is this info reliable....no offence, but this would mean Fedex's racket weight is similar to Sampras's racket...

Rookie
06-21-2004, 07:39 AM
Believe it or not. I have a chance stringing 2 Fed'd racquet earlier this year, when he came to HK for an exhibition match, Watson's Challenge. He is definitely using a Tour90 with with 4 1/2 inches lead tape on both side of the throat. It was strung with Wilson Natural Gut and Alu Power Rough 63/63lbs. Grip size is 4 3/8 with white wilson over grip.

jorel
09-18-2008, 05:27 AM
just wanted to bring this old post back from 2004 to show us how much we have learned in 4 years

jorel
09-18-2008, 05:28 AM
nothing..............

Azzurri
09-19-2008, 07:26 AM
^^so true. I sometimes read old threads based on today's theories and its funny to read them.

Tennisguy777
09-19-2008, 07:47 AM
He's using the [F]ed [F]actor 90 nowadays!

hoodjem
09-19-2008, 08:05 AM
Believe it or not. I have a chance stringing 2 Fed'd racquet earlier this year, when he came to HK for an exhibition match, Watson's Challenge. He is definitely using a Tour90 with with 4 1/2 inches lead tape on both side of the throat. It was strung with Wilson Natural Gut and Alu Power Rough 63/63lbs. Grip size is 4 3/8 with white wilson over grip.

Is the 4 1/2 inches of lead tape on the inside or outside of the throat?

tennis_guy
09-19-2008, 08:33 AM
You guys are almost right... Fed uses an custom size 88 racquet, 100% graphite that is made from a modified PS 85 mold.

Why would I know this? If you hang around some major tournaments and get to know some stringers, you may even check out some pro's racquets from time to time.

I believe this guy.

jorel
09-19-2008, 09:43 AM
I believe this guy.
can he BE any more general?

Echo676
09-30-2008, 02:26 PM
I think he meant that Federer wouldn't mess around with these "flash in the pan" materials that are only in 1 series of racquets and are replaced the next year. Kevlar is a tried and true material found in many classic frames.

Agreed.

And at your sig, Fed has already given Nadal a bagel :D. LOL @ King of Clay

15_ounce
10-01-2008, 03:05 AM
i will steal one if u give me 5 dollars

:):):):) ROFL ROFL ROFL that made me laugh a lot.

smart_player
10-04-2008, 04:14 AM
I thought the ONE THING that we were all in agreement on was that the Tour 90 was originally designed specifically for PETE SAMPRAS, and NOT specifically for Federer. That's why the Tour 90 is predominately black in color as Pete told Wilson that he will only play with a racquet that was predomintely black. Wilson made it swing heavier than the PS 6.0 85 so that Pete wouldn't have to use so much lead tape on the head. Of course, this was all before Pete abruptly decided to retire. When that happened, I think Wilson made Federer the poster boy to promote the new Tour 90. Had they made the Tour 90 for Federer to begin with, they would have made it red in color as I understand that's Federer's favorite color. That's why the nSix-One Tour is red and white (like the Swiss flag). This one IS supposed to be made for Federer.

so this means that sampras had an active input in the development of the tour 90. shouldn't this mean that the tour 90 should be very close to sampras's modified ps85?