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Hops
11-19-2005, 02:00 PM
most references cite Nastase with 15 titles in 1973, e.g.

http://www.tennisfame.org/enshrinees/ilie_nastase.html

"His finest season was 1973, when he was regarded as No. 1 in the world after winning the Italian, French, and l3 other tournaments, and downing Tom Okker in the Masters final, 6-3, 7-5, 4-6, 6-3. That season he won 15 of 31 tourneys on a 118-17 match record"

ATP site lists 14 titles:

Barcelona (April)
Barcelona (October)
Calgary
Cincinnati
Florence
Gstaad
London
Madrid
Monte Carlo
Omaha
Paris
Roland Garros
Rome
Masters

anyone know what the 15th title was?

urban
11-19-2005, 03:10 PM
In the book 'Nastase' by Richard Evans, 1978, they cite two further titles for 1973, Merryfield and Istanbul, and 3 runner up: Hampton, Dewar Cup and Bristish Hard Court..

Hops
11-19-2005, 09:02 PM
In the book 'Nastase' by Richard Evans, 1978, they cite two further titles for 1973, Merryfield and Istanbul, and 3 runner up: Hampton, Dewar Cup and Bristish Hard Court..

thanks ... just to give you an idea what I'm doing -

most are familiar with 'official' list of most Open Era titles:

109 Connors
94 Lendl
77 Mac
64 Sampras
62 Borg
62 Vilas
60 Agassi
57 Nastase

However if you look on the ATP site all the 70s-80s players have missing titles - Jimbo 105; Mac 76; Borg 57. These are usually Pepsi Grand Slam/WCT Challenge Cups - very small invitationals with 4-8 players.

Nastase the same - listed with 52, but add

1970 Salisbury pro indoor (per HOF site)
1976 Honolulu WCT CC
1976 Las Vegas WCT CC (Pepsi)
1978 Montego Bay WCT CC

up to 56. So looking for final Nastase title, was one short in 1973 ... I only needed one, not two! :|

Couldn't find any reference to 'Merryfield' ... Istanbul titles are here:

http://www.tedclub.org.tr/eng/tedopenwinnerlist.asp

except that ATP only recognizes Dowdswell title in 1975 - it became a challenger at some point - and if I take both Istanbul titles (1971/73) that puts Nastase over 57 - and that's not even taking into account this:

http://www.momas.ro/turism/Romsite/bekende_sport.htm

what's with all those 1968/69 titles? were they all amateur or ... ?

The earlier one goes back into 1970s, the murkier it gets.


Would appreciate advice on what Bud Collins and other encyclopedias show on this topic (ATP titles in general, for all players).

urban
11-19-2005, 11:41 PM
Yes, Hops, because i did a little research for this part of tennis history, i know the difficulties very well. As i posted before, the best books on that subject are for the pre open pro game Joe McCauley, History of Professional Tennis, 2001, and Michel Sutter, Winners-Vainqueurs 1946-1991, Paris 1992. I think Nastase was official amateur until 1973 and played the ITF Grand Prix Circuit and the weak Riordan circuit (since 1972) in those years. His amateur status made him always eligible to Davis Cup. In the first years of open tennis there were contract pros (NTL and WCT, who merged in 1970) who could not play Davis Cup until 1973, licensed players and still official amateurs. There were few open tournaments, pro tournaments and since 1970 Grand Prix and WCT tournaments (where the lot of the best players played). On the ATP webside the tournaments and match results are not complete. I can track for Laver for instance 11 titles in 1968, 18 (some count 17) in 1969 and 13 in 1970. I cannot understand why the ATP doesn't count at least the open tournaments like the South African Open, the British Covered Court open or the US pro at Boston. They even have not the very first open- the British HC at Bournemouth in 1968, which Rosewall won.

urban
11-19-2005, 11:53 PM
On that Istanbul question. In the cited Sutter's book i found:
30.7.1973 Istanbul: Nastase-Gisbert (Spain) 62 36 63 62.

Hops
11-20-2005, 06:37 PM
On that Istanbul question. In the cited Sutter's book i found:
30.7.1973 Istanbul: Nastase-Gisbert (Spain) 62 36 63 62.

thnx Urban

Moose Malloy
02-14-2007, 12:59 PM
most are familiar with 'official' list of most Open Era titles:

109 Connors
94 Lendl
77 Mac
64 Sampras
62 Borg
62 Vilas
60 Agassi
57 Nastase


hops, according to wikepedia, some of these title counts are low. the atp website says that Borg won his 1st pro title in '74, but wikepedia says it was 1973 Helsinki.

also I came across many results on the itf website that aren't on the atp site. You have Pancho Gonzales' open era title count on your site as 3, on the itf site I found at least 2 more titles.

Andres
02-14-2007, 02:48 PM
Most of them played tournies, but not ATP Tour official tourneys.

For example, Vilas, in 1977, won 17 titles (one unofficial) and his streak was 50 matches (4 unofficial), and that's why the record is Borg's with 49, followed by Vilas' 46.

urban
02-14-2007, 10:55 PM
You are right Andres, but the term 'ATP official tournament' has some irony in it. The ATP was a players union in those days, founded by people like Newcombe and Drysdale, who where playing the WCT circuit. The didn't have own tournaments, with a few exceptions (since 1974 they had the event at Tucson or Indian Wells)or sanction events. They simply need to review their webside. On smaller tournaments, thex are not consistent. They count for instance the Pepsi Grand Slam for Borg (with a 4 or 8 men field), but not the Rye tournament for Vilas, which would give him the cited streak of 50. Also in Vilas case the definitions of surfaces are not true. He couldn't have gotten artithmetically a clay streak of 53, if some summer US tournaments were hard, as given by the webside. The must have been har tru, which is clay.

Moose Malloy
02-15-2007, 08:49 AM
urban, do you know who Borg beat to win Helsinki in '73? what was the surface? can't find the result at itf website.

urban
02-15-2007, 09:12 AM
Michel Sutter, whom i cited in the thread above, has a Borg win 4/02/1973 at Helsinki over an unknown (Pole) Niedzwicki. Must be on carpet indoors, because of the arctic temperature in Finnland. I assume, that was a minor event, comparable to a satellite tournament today.

Hops
02-16-2007, 07:05 PM
hops, according to wikepedia, some of these title counts are low. the atp website says that Borg won his 1st pro title in '74, but wikepedia says it was 1973 Helsinki.

also I came across many results on the itf website that aren't on the atp site. You have Pancho Gonzales' open era title count on your site as 3, on the itf site I found at least 2 more titles.

as urban notes the farther you delve back into early 1970s the murkier it gets as to what is an 'official' tournament. should stuff like pepsi-challenge really count? and of course back then WCT was separate tour entirely; imagine if today Fed and Nadal played on different tours and only could meet at slams (and maybe not even then if slam bans Fed from entering because he plays WTT)

Wikipedia has some excellent articles attempting to account for everything (is that your doing urban)

Check out Rosewall's entry, e.g. Very comprehensive.

Moose Malloy
02-20-2007, 01:13 PM
as urban notes the farther you delve back into early 1970s the murkier it gets as to what is an 'official' tournament.

True, but I believe that the itf website only has legitimate tournament results.

Gonzales won the 1969 & 1971 WCT Las Vegas events in addition to the 3 events listed on the atp site, you should change his total title count on your site.

here is a list of the 1970 season, with far more results available than the atp website:

http://www.itftennis.com/mens/tournaments/tournamentsearch.asp

Gizo
05-22-2007, 06:39 AM
Apologies for bumping up an old thread and skewing the subject slightly, but virtually every source apart from Borg's regular profile on the ATP website credit him with 62 titles (the ATP even contradict themselves because on their legends section,http://www.atptennis.com/5/en/legends/borg.asp, they state a total of 62).

Here are the 61 titles that the ATP are crediting him with:
1974 - Adelaide, Bastad, Boston, London WCT, Roland Garros, Rome, Sao Paulo WCT;
1975 - Barcelona, Bologna WCT, Boston, Richmond-WCT, Roland Garros;
1976 - Boston, Dallas WCT, Dusseldorf, Sao Paulo WCT, Toronto Indoor WCT, Wimbledon;
1977 - Barcelona, Basel, Cologne, Denver, Madrid, Memphis, Monte Carlo WCT, Nice, Pepsi Grand Slam, Wembley, Wimbledon;
1978 - Bastad, Birmingham WCT, Las Vegas, Milan WCT, Pepsi Grand Slam, Roland Garros, Rome, Tokyo Indoor, Wimbledon;
1979 - Bastad, Las Vegas, Masters, Monte Carlo, Montreal / Toronto, Palermo, Pepsi Grand Slam, Richmond WCT, Roland Garros, Rotterdam, Tokyo Indoor, Wimbledon;
1980 - Las Vegas, Masters, Monte Carlo, Nice, Pepsi Grand Slam, Roland Garros, Stockholm, Wimbledon;
1981 - Geneva, Roland Garros, Stuttgart Outdoor

Does anyone know what the mysterious 62nd title was, that everyone else is crediting him with.

CyBorg
05-22-2007, 07:06 AM
Borg actually won 77 singles titles - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B6rn_Borg .. scroll down a bit .. but the ATP recognizes 61 of them, not 62 (62 appears to be a mistake on their part).

I believe this is all of them. I wish I could find the exact scores somewhere for the 16.

CyBorg
05-22-2007, 07:09 AM
List of Auckland winners:

http://www.atptennis.com/en/tournaments/profile/301.asp

It's interesting that the list begins at 1975. Borg was the winner in '74. Perhaps this is the title that the ATP can't decide whether not recognize or not.

CyBorg
05-22-2007, 07:11 AM
Another link to Auckland history: http://www.heinekenopen.co.nz/3/history/

It should count.

Gizo
05-22-2007, 07:18 AM
Thanks a lot for the info CyBorg. The ITF website mention 62 titles, but they miss out his 1977 Pepsi Grand Slam title (despite mentioning the fact that he won this event from 1978-1980). They say that he won the tournament at Johannesburg in 1977 (that is dubious as the final between Vilas and him was never played, and they also credit Vilas with this title when no-one else does), and unlike the ATP, they credit him with his title at the WCT Challenge Cup in Montreal in 1979, where he beat Gullikson and Connors to win the tournament.
So I'm guessing that you are right and the 62nd title that websites like tennis28 are taking into account was his 1974 Auckland title, which was played on grass.

CyBorg
05-22-2007, 10:32 AM
Just checked out the ITF site - thanks for mentioning it. It has his 1972 tournament info there, which I didn't have on me.

vive le beau jeu !
05-23-2007, 01:19 AM
Apologies for bumping up an old thread and skewing the subject slightly, but virtually every source apart from Borg's regular profile on the ATP website credit him with 62 titles (the ATP even contradict themselves because on their legends section,http://www.atptennis.com/5/en/legends/borg.asp, they state a total of 62).
there is another contradiction :
His left-handed nemesis, McEnroe, followed up on Wimbledon by beating Borg in a second successive U.S. Open final to take over the No. 1 ranking that the Swede had held in 1979 and 1980. That defeat, 4-6, 6-2, 6-4,6-3, effectively ended Borg’s career. He won only two more matches, reaching the quarters of Monte Carlo in 1982. Shortly after that he retired, having won 62 singles (of 88 finals) and four pro career doubles titles, including the Masters of 1979-80, and $3,655,751.
but according to his activity, he won the geneva tournament, held one week after the US open (destroying his future RG successor wilander 61 61 in the 1st round !) and also played tokyo (lost in the 2nd round).
http://www.atptennis.com/5/en/players/playerprofiles/playeractivity.asp?prevtrnnum=0&year=1981&query=Singles&selTournament=0&player=B058&x=15&y=7
i've been wondering if the date indicated for the geneva tournament is really correct : it's rather surprising that the burned out borg played a tournament so early after this famous US open final... isn't it ?

CyBorg
05-24-2007, 03:10 PM
there is another contradiction :

but according to his activity, he won the geneva tournament, held one week after the US open (destroying his future RG successor wilander 61 61 in the 1st round !) and also played tokyo (lost in the 2nd round).
http://www.atptennis.com/5/en/players/playerprofiles/playeractivity.asp?prevtrnnum=0&year=1981&query=Singles&selTournament=0&player=B058&x=15&y=7
i've been wondering if the date indicated for the geneva tournament is really correct : it's rather surprising that the burned out borg played a tournament so early after this famous US open final... isn't it ?

Borg wasn't really as burned out as some would claim. He actually wasn't as devastated by the defeat as he was a year earlier. He simply played like he barely cared - at a very high level but with less concentration.

Borg had many breaking points - not one. He first showed frustration at the tennis masters in late-1980, early-1981. He lost to Sandy Mayer, bageled in one of the sets. Later in a match against McEnroe that he had to win in order to play the semi he uncharacteristically argued a line call, albeit quietly. He went on to win the match and the tournament. Regardless, he was clearly less motivated than before. The argument wasn't as much about frustration as it was aggravation.

Then came the loss to Pecci at Monte Carlo. Borg's refusal to make it to many quasi-important tournaments (Philly, Dallas), taking much time off doing God knows what to himself between majors (most likely partying it up). He won the French at will, at times losing focus in the final against Lendl which extended the match to five sets even though he should have won it in 3. At the Wimbledon semi he fell behind to Connors 2 sets to love including a bagel in the first set, before getting his **** together and blowing him out and take it in five. In the final he wasn't the same - it was close but Mac wanted it more. In the US Open it was worse. I still remember the fourth set where Mac went a break up and Borg broke back. Shockingly, he relinquished the break almost immediately after. I don't care how well McEnroe player - Borg just gave up.

If you want my personal opinion, the first breaking point was the marriage to Marianna after '80 Wimbledon. Like many men who don't want to commit Borg felt like he was in a prison. It went downhill from there.

Q&M son
06-05-2008, 11:51 AM
deleted........

Q&M son
06-05-2008, 12:00 PM
In this thread : http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=190987

jeffreyneave says:

"Nastase had a win over connors in Washington on the riordan circuit,

Nastase won 17 titles in 1973

14 listed by atp; washington: istanbul ; and kingston played in dec '73 missed in the evans biography.

never rely on the atp web site for total historical coverage."

"nastase's win over connors is certainly no challenger event; the washington win is on the same circuit as Nastase's wins at Omaha.

He beat gottfried at kingston in the final; a top 30 player.

the istanbul win over Gisbert is a decent win. Gisbert was a top 50 player."


Draws for that ones?

Q&M son
06-14-2008, 04:13 PM
Thanks a lot for the info CyBorg. The ITF website mention 62 titles, but they miss out his 1977 Pepsi Grand Slam title (despite mentioning the fact that he won this event from 1978-1980).

64 now, only inactive player to keep winning titles in the world! ;)

Moose Malloy
06-16-2008, 10:07 AM
After hearing that Nadal was the 1st to win Queen's & RG in the same year I looked up Nastase's record that year.

He won the French, Rome(held after RG??) & Queens in a row, quite impressive.

urban
06-16-2008, 10:27 AM
Laver did it too in 1962, winning Rome, RG and Queens (and Wim for that matter). Interesting, that the last Spaniard to win Queens, was Gimeno in 1960. After 1960, he turned pro.

Q&M son
02-18-2012, 01:06 PM
Another link to Auckland history: http://www.heinekenopen.co.nz/3/history/

It should count.

It counts now ;)

kiki
02-23-2012, 06:24 AM
Laver did it too in 1962, winning Rome, RG and Queens (and Wim for that matter). Interesting, that the last Spaniard to win Queens, was Gimeno in 1960. After 1960, he turned pro.


Nasty a spaniard?

kiki
02-23-2012, 06:26 AM
most references cite Nastase with 15 titles in 1973, e.g.

http://www.tennisfame.org/enshrinees/ilie_nastase.html

"His finest season was 1973, when he was regarded as No. 1 in the world after winning the Italian, French, and l3 other tournaments, and downing Tom Okker in the Masters final, 6-3, 7-5, 4-6, 6-3. That season he won 15 of 31 tourneys on a 118-17 match record"

ATP site lists 14 titles:

Barcelona (April)
Barcelona (October)
Calgary
Cincinnati
Florence
Gstaad
London
Madrid
Monte Carlo
Omaha
Paris
Roland Garros
Rome
Masters

anyone know what the 15th title was?

I canīt remember what did he do at Forest Hills that 1973.Anyone helping here?

Limpinhitter
02-23-2012, 06:55 AM
After hearing that Nadal was the 1st to win Queen's & RG in the same year I looked up Nastase's record that year.

He won the French, Rome(held after RG??) & Queens in a row, quite impressive.

The data on the ATP website just isn't very reliable. Among other things, it lists Ken Rosewall at 5'9". C'mon!!!

urban
02-23-2012, 08:04 AM
I think, Nasty lost early at Forest Hills 1973 to Andy Pattison or Byron Bertram.

kiki
02-23-2012, 09:23 AM
I think, Nasty lost early at Forest Hills 1973 to Andy Pattison or Byron Bertram.

thank you, maybe Pattison?