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View Full Version : an explanation for 9-11(video)


(tg)
01-01-2006, 03:36 PM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2023320890224991194

its reallyyyyyyyyyyyy long but its interesting

rilokiley
01-01-2006, 03:47 PM
I've heard about it before but never got the chance to see it. thanks, tg.

umm let the flame war begin, then. heh

fishuuuuu
01-01-2006, 03:56 PM
I haven't watched this, and probably never will, but I wanted to chime in a little thing that's been bugging me.

I am not an expert in physics or demolitions, but why did the Twin Towers fall in a demolished fashion (the way buildings are destroyed commercially)?

Why is there footage lacking of the fall of the towers?

How did jet fuel expose and weaken the structural base of the towers? The second plane's fuel exploded outward away from the building not inward, due to a awkward collision angle, how does jet fuel weaken this structure?

Andy Hewitt
01-01-2006, 04:34 PM
Reminds me of something I saw a while back that shined some light on the "plane" that hit the pentagon. I think it was trying to show that it was a missle.... and it didnt take 1 hour to show you that.

Can someone summarize this? Just saw 4 minutes of it.

35ft6
01-01-2006, 05:02 PM
I am not an expert in physics or demolitions, but why did the Twin Towers fall in a demolished fashion (the way buildings are destroyed commercially)?

Why is there footage lacking of the fall of the towers?

How did jet fuel expose and weaken the structural base of the towers? The second plane's fuel exploded outward away from the building not inward, due to a awkward collision angle, how does jet fuel weaken this structure? The towers were designed to withstand the impact of a plane, but what the engineers didn't consider was extreme temperatures from a plane loaded with jet fuel. Those planes were loaded with enough fuel to go from Boston to California. The heat of the jet fuel fire pretty much melted the load bearing steel columns. Once the steel was softened up, it could no longer hold up the levels above it, causing them to collapse. The downward force of the collapsing floors started a chain reaction, a domino effect, causing the whole building to collapse.

And there's plenty of footage of this happening. Seriously, you haven't seen it?

fishuuuuu
01-01-2006, 05:12 PM
The towers were designed to withstand the impact of a plane, but what the engineers didn't consider was extreme temperatures from a plane loaded with jet fuel. Those planes were loaded with enough fuel to go from Boston to California. The heat of the jet fuel fire pretty much melted the load bearing steel columns. Once the steel was softened up, it could no longer hold up the levels above it, causing them to collapse. The downward force of the collapsing floors started a chain reaction, a domino effect, causing the whole building to collapse.

And there's plenty of footage of this happening. Seriously, you haven't seen it?

While not knowledgable with physics, I am familiar to chemistry. Steel columns at any rate were formed under thousands of degrees of heat and designed to withstand such, how does only several hundred degrees of heat (the temperature jet fuel burns at) degrade the columns? And as I mentioned before, the angular collision of the 2nd plane to the 2nd tower puts the jet fuel theory out of place, as most of the fuel was ignited outside of the building. Explanations?

And, since the 2nd building was struck less severely, why did it fall first? Why do the steel support columns collapse under this pressure when they're made to resist thousands upon thousands of tons, an architectural feat special to this building? Why does it look like demolition?

Okay okay ... say I believe you ... it was a domino effect ... WHERE THE HELL IS ALL THE RUBBLE AND DEBRIS? Regardless of the fall distance things don't disintegrate.

(tg)
01-01-2006, 05:33 PM
well the video has a pretty good reason- there were bombs in the buildings. The video says that 9/11 was setup by the governemnt. It sounds crazy but if you actually watch the video, it sort of makes sense.

Feņa14
01-01-2006, 05:50 PM
It really does make sense, you can never really get your head around terrorist attacks but that really makes sense.

Bin Laden being left handed, and that picture looked nothing like him! plus earlier in the documentary they said on 28th September Bin Laden denied being responsible.

That's really made me think, plus half the people who supposedly carried out the attacks are still alive and having all those phone calls that were almost certain not to ger through but did.

Chilling stuff.

theace21
01-01-2006, 09:04 PM
I checked it out, and ended up watching the entire one hour...You can't beleive everything you read or watch - but it makes you think. Thanks for the link!!!

Fee
01-01-2006, 09:26 PM
So Ted Olsen's wife died on a missile? Wow, he must be ****ed.

TEAM ZERO
01-01-2006, 11:42 PM
THat was an awesome vid! THanx for sharing! Definately more ppl should be watching this...!?

nViATi
01-02-2006, 08:42 AM
You guys seriously think the government is blowing up and killing their own people? :rolleyes:

fishuuuuu
01-02-2006, 08:59 AM
We have to get our oil from somewhere.

donnyz89
01-02-2006, 09:22 AM
I just watched the entire hour of this... First of all, I want people to know that a good lawyer can make ANY story believable to lay people like us. Thats what makes a good lawyer/debater. He gathers the information he needs to prove his point and he does it. I'm sure there are PLENTY of information that supports the other side of the story as well.

are there anyways to download this video?

(tg)
01-02-2006, 09:58 AM
I just watched the entire hour of this... First of all, I want people to know that a good lawyer can make ANY story believable to lay people like us. Thats what makes a good lawyer/debater. He gathers the information he needs to prove his point and he does it. I'm sure there are PLENTY of information that supports the other side of the story as well.

are there anyways to download this video?

i dont think theres any website that you can download this. Its an hour long :rolleyes:

donnyz89
01-02-2006, 10:07 AM
always can try limewire...

ibemadskillzz
01-02-2006, 04:01 PM
http://www.question911.com/
here you can find all the videos

tonyjh63
01-02-2006, 04:11 PM
Are you people serious?! Now the Bush administration carried out the attack on the WTC and the Pentagon?!! I suppose it was all just to get us in a war? This sounds like some of those crazy nuts who say that FDR knew all about the attack on Pearl Harbor long before it took place, but allowed it to happen so the U.S. would join in the war. Seriously people, y'all need to stop drinking the kool-aid!!!

ibemadskillzz
01-02-2006, 04:16 PM
9/11 did not happen. I believe it was all setup by the government. This was designed to make it look like terriorists had done it

alexmath2
01-02-2006, 04:56 PM
I have been visiting this website for a couple weeks now and have been amused at how somethings get so personal and vitriolic. Now I am going to be guilty of the very things I abhor, but you people are crazy. To believe that your government would intentionally blow up the towers and crash a plane into the pentagon is beyond foolish. I will agree, that the video was interesting, but it is noteworthy that the director made only cursory attempts to show viewpoints opposed to his own. It was designed to for conspiracy theorists and to line the directors own pockets. Just checkout his website.

theace21
01-02-2006, 05:10 PM
Are you people serious?! Now the Bush administration carried out the attack on the WTC and the Pentagon?!! I suppose it was all just to get us in a war? This sounds like some of those crazy nuts who say that FDR knew all about the attack on Pearl Harbor long before it took place, but allowed it to happen so the U.S. would join in the war. Seriously people, y'all need to stop drinking the kool-aid!!!
Makes people think, I am not drinking the Kool-Aid, but I also don't beleive the gov't tells us everything. You can spin things alot of different ways, and he showed that several people thought they heard multiple explosions before the buildings collapsed. He used bits and pieces of a variety of news stories to make his point. I thought it was interesting, and worth watching...

35ft6
01-02-2006, 05:14 PM
If you want to watch a more credible show about 9/11 -- not really about 9/11 per se, but explains its role in current world events -- then check out The Power of Nightmares (http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares ), a three part series produced by the BBC.

I don't believe that our government KNEW that planes were going to be used as guided missiles to take down the WTC on that particular day, but one COULD make the argument in retrospect that there was enough evidence floating around to suggest that such an attack was imminent, something the government should have taken more seriously.

Basically, 9/11 was the perfect event for the neo-cons to create their myth around, a story which would enable them to sell the American people on going to war with Iraq, which is but one part of their grander scheme. The Power of Nightmares explains it all much better. Check it out.

El Diablo
01-02-2006, 05:31 PM
fishuuuuu answered his own question....steel is FORMED at intensely high heat because it is VIRTUALLY LIQUID at those temperatures and CAN BE FORMED. Well before reaching those temperatures, it is soft, and quite unable to support a load of any kind. Those buildings also had so much more steel facing than window that they functioned as ovens, further raising the temperature inside.
As for government, it is notoriously incompetent (civil servant has come to be something of an insult in this culture) and generally incapable of keeping things secret, especially if one imagines the number of people who would have had to have known of such a secret.

35ft6
01-02-2006, 05:57 PM
^ And as for why the building hit second collapsed first, if you watch the video you see that it was hit much closer to the middle, whereas the first building was hit closer to the top. Common sense would suggest that the second building would collapse first because there was more weight stressing the areas being compromised by the jet fuel.

I love a good conspiracy theory just as much as anybody else and I agree that governments don't tell us everything, blah blah blah. But 9/11 is one of the most well documented significant world event in history. Lots of video, film footage, etc. What happened is pretty much plain to see, and most engineers agree that how the buildings collapsed is understandable considering the circumstances. You don't have to resign yourself to a lifetime of guessing, creating wild scenarios in order to fill your gaps of knowledge. There's been butt loads of research done on the collapse of the buildings, if you don't understand physics or engineering, then go find an article written by somebody who does. Fill the holes with actual knowledge, not with random speculation.

As for what led up to 9/11, and how the Islamic fanatics and our neo-con fanatics have spun the event in their favor, now there's definitely a lot of unanswered questions there, and even the stuff that the neo-cons said outright, things that are now a matter of public record, have been proven to be lies, so just imagine what's going on behind the scenes. But as far as the building's collapsing goes, there's no credible reasons to believe a missile hit the Pentagon, or that bombs were inside the WTC, or that the plane in Pennsylvania was taken down by a US fighter jet.

Be a responsible conspiracy theorist. Don't believe everything and the alien kitchen sink. :p

RiosTheGenius
01-02-2006, 08:24 PM
You guys seriously think the government is blowing up and killing their own people? :rolleyes:
it's always been a part of human history. leaders do things to make people think they're being attacked, that way they have grounds for attacking back and have their support. People like Hitler, Pinochet, and Bush understand this perfectly.
if you think about it, after thousands of american soldiers have died in Iraq... do you really think Bush and his administration really gives a bloody crap about the civilians who died on 9/11????.... I don't fcuking think so, he is a threat to americans as well as to the human kind.

he speaks about freedom and democracy...... not such thing.... if the US was a real democracy, people would be able to elect their own president. instead, the voting system is a big joke and Dush gets re-elected. but of course everyone thinks their vote counts.
a country where all the media is controlled and there's no access to information that doesn't come from a channel with corporate interests is not a free country, I'm sorry. .... this government will totally kill its own people for oil or whatever it's sought.

If you want to watch a more credible show about 9/11 -- not really about 9/11 per se, but explains its role in current world events -- then check out The Power of Nightmares, a three part series produced by the BBC.

why would I trust the BBC as a source of information?

35ft6
01-02-2006, 09:09 PM
why would I trust the BBC as a source of information? Are you being serious?

RiosTheGenius
01-02-2006, 09:16 PM
what makes you think that I'm kidding.

35ft6
01-02-2006, 09:47 PM
I would think a rational person would at least check the message out before condemning the messenger. Does the BBC have a reputation for broadcasting unreliable news or something?

Jack the Hack
01-02-2006, 11:13 PM
^ And as for why the building hit second collapsed first, if you watch the video you see that it was hit much closer to the middle, whereas the first building was hit closer to the top. Common sense would suggest that the second building would collapse first because there was more weight stressing the areas being compromised by the jet fuel.

I love a good conspiracy theory just as much as anybody else and I agree that governments don't tell us everything, blah blah blah. But 9/11 is one of the most well documented significant world event in history. Lots of video, film footage, etc. What happened is pretty much plain to see, and most engineers agree that how the buildings collapsed is understandable considering the circumstances. You don't have to resign yourself to a lifetime of guessing, creating wild scenarios in order to fill your gaps of knowledge. There's been butt loads of research done on the collapse of the buildings, if you don't understand physics or engineering, then go find an article written by somebody who does. Fill the holes with actual knowledge, not with random speculation.

As for what led up to 9/11, and how the Islamic fanatics and our neo-con fanatics have spun the event in their favor, now there's definitely a lot of unanswered questions there, and even the stuff that the neo-cons said outright, things that are now a matter of public record, have been proven to be lies, so just imagine what's going on behind the scenes. But as far as the building's collapsing goes, there's no credible reasons to believe a missile hit the Pentagon, or that bombs were inside the WTC, or that the plane in Pennsylvania was taken down by a US fighter jet.

Be a responsible conspiracy theorist. Don't believe everything and the alien kitchen sink. :p

:) !!!!!AMEN!!!!! :)

(Great post 35ft6!)

nViATi
01-02-2006, 11:28 PM
Man.. you guys are all crazy ;)

Phil
01-03-2006, 06:05 AM
It's actually obscene that members of this board are playing up this Internet conspiracy theory. No one THINKS any more; if it's on the Internet or TV, then GEEZ...it's got to be "true". Think for a moment, you morons who actually suck this garbage up...regardless of how poor our current leaders are, both morally and performance-wise, no one, NO ONE would allow this to happen. Many of the Arabs, Europeans and other anti-American types push this garbage...I would have expected better of the people on this board. Then again, we DO have some '***** among us.

Brettolius
01-03-2006, 06:35 AM
I would like to see some actual footage of any kind of the plane (or whatever) hitting the Pentagon. There's tons of surveillence camera's there, no one has seen footage from those various angles, and the camera's at all the business's close by, well, haven't seen anything from those, and the employees claim that the film was confiscated by government agents. Also it is interesting to look at pictures of the hole in the Pentagon before and after the wall collapsed. There is NO plane wreckage whatsoever in any of the Pentagon pictures, and the before the wall collapsed, the hole was not nearly big enough for the plane to fit, let alone the wings or tail. And no footage of this stuff, at a place I would assume has every square inch under watch.

I'm not drawing any conclusions about what really happened, but it is some interesting stuff to check out, and we are surely not getting the whole story. Something bizzarre happened that day... just show me a piece of plane debris.

RiosTheGenius
01-03-2006, 09:55 AM
It's actually obscene that members of this board are playing up this Internet conspiracy theory. No one THINKS any more; if it's on the Internet or TV, then GEEZ...it's got to be "true". Think for a moment, you morons who actually suck this garbage up...regardless of how poor our current leaders are, both morally and performance-wise, no one, NO ONE would allow this to happen. Many of the Arabs, Europeans and other anti-American types push this garbage...I would have expected better of the people on this board. Then again, we DO have some '***** among us.
another stupid *** post by Phil.

Jack the Hack
01-03-2006, 10:50 AM
It's actually obscene that members of this board are playing up this Internet conspiracy theory. No one THINKS any more; if it's on the Internet or TV, then GEEZ...it's got to be "true". Think for a moment, you morons who actually suck this garbage up...regardless of how poor our current leaders are, both morally and performance-wise, no one, NO ONE would allow this to happen. Many of the Arabs, Europeans and other anti-American types push this garbage...I would have expected better of the people on this board. Then again, we DO have some '***** among us.

LMAO!!! :lol:

Geez Phil, tell us how you really feel about your fellow posters... don't hold back now... let us have it!!!

Phil
01-03-2006, 11:08 AM
another stupid *** post by Phil.

America, that Great Satan, has GIVEN you the opportunity to live and work in its greatest city. So, from your free and democratic platform, you can sit and spew this garbage. Figures-those who hate us most want what we have.

Jack the Hack
01-03-2006, 11:13 AM
I would like to see some actual footage of any kind of the plane (or whatever) hitting the Pentagon. There's tons of surveillence camera's there, no one has seen footage from those various angles, and the camera's at all the business's close by, well, haven't seen anything from those, and the employees claim that the film was confiscated by government agents. Also it is interesting to look at pictures of the hole in the Pentagon before and after the wall collapsed. There is NO plane wreckage whatsoever in any of the Pentagon pictures, and the before the wall collapsed, the hole was not nearly big enough for the plane to fit, let alone the wings or tail. And no footage of this stuff, at a place I would assume has every square inch under watch.

I'm not drawing any conclusions about what really happened, but it is some interesting stuff to check out, and we are surely not getting the whole story. Something bizzarre happened that day... just show me a piece of plane debris.

Here is a picture of some plane debris from the Flight 77 crash into the Pentagon on 9/11:

http://tinypic.com/jl42zd.jpg

Also, there is surveillence camera footage from the Pentagon of the plane hitting the side of the building posted here:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/03/07/gen.pentagon.pictures/index.html

And finally, here is a great write-up refuting the 9/11 Pentagon conspiracy theories:

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

Conspiracy theories are great fun, and sometimes there is some truth to them. However, don't take everything hook, line, and sinker just because it is posted on an "underground" site on the Internet. As 35ft6 posted earlier, use your brain, do some research, and be a responsible conspiracy theorist!

Brettolius
01-03-2006, 11:51 AM
Here is a picture of some plane debris from the Flight 77 crash into the Pentagon on 9/11:

http://tinypic.com/jl42zd.jpg

Also, there is surveillence camera footage from the Pentagon of the plane hitting the side of the building posted here:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/03/07/gen.pentagon.pictures/index.html

And finally, here is a great write-up refuting the 9/11 Pentagon conspiracy theories:

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

Conspiracy theories are great fun, and sometimes there is some truth to them. However, don't take everything hook, line, and sinker just because it is posted on an "underground" site on the Internet. As 35ft6 posted earlier, use your brain, do some research, and be a responsible conspiracy theorist!

Oh, no doubt Jack, and I'm not leaning one way or the other, but also the don't take everything hook, line, and sinker applies to the other side too. As far the gov. story. I'm at work now, but when I get a chance, I'll find the pictures I saw which look a bit more conclusive than those that a plane didn't hit the pentagon. Again, I can't say that I've done research on the subject that I can really present any facts, just seen some interesting things in passing. It is kinda fun to look at both sides and speculate. Regards, and I'll post some those photos soon, for fun's sake, ya' know?

RiosTheGenius
01-03-2006, 03:09 PM
America, that Great Satan, has GIVEN you the opportunity to live and work in its greatest city. So, from your free and democratic platform, you can sit and spew this garbage. Figures-those who hate us most want what we have.
firstly, I earned my way into the greatest city with honest hard work.
and second. I love america and most of its people, what I really dislike is its government and stupid policies at different levels.

if I didn't speak out only because I'm doing awesome in the great NYC I would be another fool , like CNN, and all those who will sell their soul to satan.

anyway.... I don't like your language so that's as far as I'm gonna go with this

tonyjh63
01-03-2006, 04:27 PM
It's actually obscene that members of this board are playing up this Internet conspiracy theory. No one THINKS any more; if it's on the Internet or TV, then GEEZ...it's got to be "true". Think for a moment, you morons who actually suck this garbage up...regardless of how poor our current leaders are, both morally and performance-wise, no one, NO ONE would allow this to happen. Many of the Arabs, Europeans and other anti-American types push this garbage...I would have expected better of the people on this board. Then again, we DO have some '***** among us.

Brilliant post Phil!! I couldn't agree with you more!

35ft6
01-03-2006, 05:57 PM
America, that Great Satan, has GIVEN you the opportunity to live and work in its greatest city. So, from your free and democratic platform, you can sit and spew this garbage. Figures-those who hate us most want what we have. That last sentence really isn't true at all despite what Fox and the Republican party might have you believe. One, I don't really think there's any negotiating to be done with people like Osama, unfortunately killing them is the only way of resolving our problems with them in our favor. But there's not a lot of people as fanatical as Osama, although our actions in the middle east has certainly gone a long way in creating Osama sympathizers. Anyway, Osama doesn't want what we have, they want to destroy our way of life. They see the liberal west as being the cause of all that is bad and anti-Islamic in the world and wish to see the entire program deleted. And there is no evidence of an al qaeda, or any organization remotely like it, existing. None. Zilch. But in order to get your citizens to willingly hand over their freedoms, you have to create a boogeyman, and that's what Osama is.

Bush keeps saying that 'they hate our freedom,' but he's done more to take away our freedoms than any foreign power ever has. :confused:

RiosTheGenius
01-03-2006, 07:11 PM
That last sentence really isn't true at all despite what Fox and the Republican party might have you believe. One, I don't really think there's any negotiating to be done with people like Osama, unfortunately killing them is the only way of resolving our problems with them in our favor. But there's not a lot of people as fanatical as Osama, although our actions in the middle east has certainly gone a long way in creating Osama sympathizers. Anyway, Osama doesn't want what we have, they want to destroy our way of life. They see the liberal west as being the cause of all that is bad and anti-Islamic in the world and wish to see the entire program deleted. And there is no evidence of an al qaeda, or any organization remotely like it, existing. None. Zilch. But in order to get your citizens to willingly hand over their freedoms, you have to create a boogeyman, and that's what Osama is.

Bush keeps saying that 'they hate our freedom,' but he's done more to take away our freedoms than any foreign power ever has. :confused:
thank you....

Docalex007
01-04-2006, 01:24 AM
That last sentence really isn't true at all despite what Fox and the Republican party might have you believe. One, I don't really think there's any negotiating to be done with people like Osama, unfortunately killing them is the only way of resolving our problems with them in our favor. But there's not a lot of people as fanatical as Osama, although our actions in the middle east has certainly gone a long way in creating Osama sympathizers. Anyway, Osama doesn't want what we have, they want to destroy our way of life. They see the liberal west as being the cause of all that is bad and anti-Islamic in the world and wish to see the entire program deleted. And there is no evidence of an al qaeda, or any organization remotely like it, existing. None. Zilch. But in order to get your citizens to willingly hand over their freedoms, you have to create a boogeyman, and that's what Osama is.

Bush keeps saying that 'they hate our freedom,' but he's done more to take away our freedoms than any foreign power ever has. :confused:

I must say though, I am not so sure. I think deep in Osama's mind he's wishing he were in a jacuzzi in America after going to the gym, getting ready for a nice night out.

Let's face it, he's in some dumpy hideout/cave right now. You think he enjoys that? I'm not so certain. He knows he's faced with living this way the rest of his life....i'm sure he'd trade that in for high quality US/European living. Just as i'm pretty sure all the other high ranking terrorists would give up what they do if they were guaranteed all the perks of high class living and freedom.

With most of them, it's their lack of perspective and/or education that make them hate free societies, i.e. America. We all know their upbringing was skewed and very twisted in form which accounts for their extreme ways of processing information. But given the proper opportunity and reintroduction of these societies in a neutral manner, I believe they would choose the more "logical" way of living life.

However, this may not imply to the very rich and/or royal madmen of the Middle East (i.e. Saudi royals). I understand they live like kings and can get away with beaking laws that may or may not be there. I understand that they would have to give up this control of power if they choose to move to the US or Europe....but most "terrorists" are not so well off and would choose the higher quality of life for them and their families.

35ft6
01-04-2006, 03:38 AM
I must say though, I am not so sure. I think deep in Osama's mind he's wishing he were in a jacuzzi in America after going to the gym, getting ready for a nice night out.

Let's face it, he's in some dumpy hideout/cave right now. You think he enjoys that? I'm not so certain. He knows he's faced with living this way the rest of his life....i'm sure he'd trade that in for high quality US/European living. What makes you so sure of that? The guy could have had that life. You're projecting your own set of priorities to somebody who is radically different from you.With most of them, it's their lack of perspective and/or education that make them hate free societies, i.e. America. We all know their upbringing was skewed and very twisted in form which accounts for their extreme ways of processing information. Ditto for Americans. Most people in general are NOT well informed. But the architects of the Islamic Jihad movement are very well educated, and from what I know, a "skewed" and "very twisted" upbringing really had nothing to do with it either. They're not just doing what they do to kill time, they have a pretty well thought out worldview driving their actions.

Seriously, watch The Power of Nightmares. Yes, there's a lot of editorializing going on the three episodes, but they also provide a lot of objective info relevant to this discussion. This essay on Occidentalism (https://www.math.rutgers.edu/~sussmann/papers/occidentalism.html) is also an excellent resource.But given the proper opportunity and reintroduction of these societies in a neutral manner, I believe they would choose the more "logical" way of living life. Logic has nothing to do with it. We live in a country where 85% of the people believe in angels. Love of free market capitalism isn't hardwired into our brains.However, this may not imply to the very rich and/or royal madmen of the Middle East (i.e. Saudi royals). I understand they live like kings and can get away with beaking laws that may or may not be there. I understand that they would have to give up this control of power if they choose to move to the US or Europe....but most "terrorists" are not so well off and would choose the higher quality of life for them and their families. The Saudi's are our friends because they cooperate with the USA's economic policies. We could just as easily have made them part of the Axis of Evil. 11 of the 12 september 11 terrorists were Saudi nationals, and so is Osama. Iraq used to be our friend, remember? And we used to court the Taliban, seeing as how a US oil company wanted to build a pipeline from Turkmenistan to Pakistan through Afghanistan.

Anyway, back to Saudi Arabia:The push for political reform, occurring simultaneously with an increasingly unsettled security situation, has created a very unpredictable human rights environment. Killings by both government security forces and armed groups occur periodically, either in attacks or shootouts. The pardon and release of prominent reform advocates by King Abdullah may signal a more consistent support for reform, but torture and ill-treatment persist, as do incommunicado detention, prolonged detention without charge, and unfair trials.

There are still scores of political prisoners and possible prisoners of conscience. Saudi Arabia continues to use flogging and amputations as punishments. Executions, beheadings with a sword, occur regularly and are disproportionately carried out against foreign nationals. Foreign workers are vulnerable to abuse and exploitation, particularly female domestic workers, who have virtually no protection at all. About 600 Iraqis remain stranded in Rafha refugee camp since the 1991 Gulf War, denied the opportunity to seek asylum in Saudi Arabia. Guys like Osama, they hate the Saudi royals, too.

Phil
01-04-2006, 06:27 AM
That last sentence really isn't true at all despite what Fox and the Republican party might have you believe. One, I don't really think there's any negotiating to be done with people like Osama, unfortunately killing them is the only way of resolving our problems with them in our favor. But there's not a lot of people as fanatical as Osama, although our actions in the middle east has certainly gone a long way in creating Osama sympathizers. Anyway, Osama doesn't want what we have, they want to destroy our way of life. They see the liberal west as being the cause of all that is bad and anti-Islamic in the world and wish to see the entire program deleted. And there is no evidence of an al qaeda, or any organization remotely like it, existing. None. Zilch. But in order to get your citizens to willingly hand over their freedoms, you have to create a boogeyman, and that's what Osama is.

Bush keeps saying that 'they hate our freedom,' but he's done more to take away our freedoms than any foreign power ever has. :confused:

First, I didn't say that Osama bin Laden wanted what we have. What I was referring to were the Eurotrash, non-fundumentalist Arabs, and people like RiostheGenius (who is from Chile and, as far as I know, NOT a jihadist), who take pot shots at the US and have done so for years, regardless of who sits in the White House. RTG does so from his comfortable NYU dorm in New York, where he is receiving the kind of education that he could not get in his home country. There is nothing wrong with criticizing the leadership of the USA, but when it comes to pushing nasty Internet conspiracy theories-the same ones being pushed by the Saudis and Arabs and the French (the Pentagon "missile" conspiracy theory originated in France), that betrays another agenda totally.

Secondly, there IS evidence of the existence of al Qaeda; the history of the organization has been documented, and information on its organization and methods is based on volumes of information left behind by AQ or captured, and other intelligence. Who do you think was in those training camps in Afghanistan before they were taken out? You really think these guys are all "free agents" and we're chasing around a bogeyman?. Maybe you meant, there is no evidence of organized AQ activity IN THE USA. Not SINCE 9/11, but the fact is, these people operated freely in the US leading up to 9/11 and they may have had help.

I don't disagree with anything else you said, but...most of THAT is supposition. Based on what I've read, OBL et al. MAY NOT "want to destroy our way of life", not totally at least. His main objective-and he has written this-is the overthrow of the brutal, corrupt and pro-Western Arab dictatorships and oligarchies that rule the Arabs with an iron fist. The jihadists feel that those lands are rightly theirs and they want to establish a new caliphate-an Islamic-based empire-like the one that existed in the Middle Ages that was based first in Damascus and then Baghdad.

If they COULD, they would destroy us, but their first targets are the governments of their own countries and Israel. I think OBL and his henchmen are tactically savvy and are aware that they cannot defeat the US militarily. However, causing mayhem and murder at least, is a viable tactic for keeping the West off balance. It has also had the added effect of damaging civil liberties in the US. The USA Patriot Act, the suspension of habeus corpus for "terrorist suspects" and the Presidents unleashing of the NSA to collect domestic intelligence without warrants has crossed the line from minor inconvenience to a roll-back of civil liberties. Our government and transportation authorities are clueless, and OBL is laughing at that unexpected victory in his campaign against the west.

donnyz89
01-23-2006, 02:32 PM
First of all, I just want to say that its a lot more complicated than a few pictures and stats. Its not as easy as did Bush blow up the buildings, yes/no... We have to interpret the videos our own ways, there isnt one right or wrong answer because for now, we dont know. From the video, I think that maybe what we are TOLD about 9-11 is not what really happened. What really happened? that can not be confirmed yet with the information given.

Its just like a good debator, he is able to gather the information NEEDED, throw out the ones that are not and use the "good" information to create an argument. He is presenting one side of the story.

If you are foolish enough to watch this and completely go against the US government, then so be it, but I wont draw conclusions just yet.

khs_tennis
01-23-2006, 04:28 PM
Isn't it ironic how we all as a nation came together after 9/11 but we are now picking this tragedy apart and trying to blame Bush. Aren't we all just full of patriotism? lol

lude popper
01-23-2006, 08:12 PM
I haven't watched this, and probably never will, but I wanted to chime in a little thing that's been bugging me.

I am not an expert in physics or demolitions, but why did the Twin Towers fall in a demolished fashion (the way buildings are destroyed commercially)?

Why is there footage lacking of the fall of the towers?

How did jet fuel expose and weaken the structural base of the towers? The second plane's fuel exploded outward away from the building not inward, due to a awkward collision angle, how does jet fuel weaken this structure?

http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html

fishuuuuu
01-24-2006, 06:21 PM
http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html

Thank you lude, that was one of the articles I referenced years ago when this subject originally came up. But it's apparent that the patriots won't be swayed.

Phil
01-25-2006, 08:58 AM
Thank you lude, that was one of the articles I referenced years ago when this subject originally came up. But it's apparent that the patriots won't be swayed.

The weak-minded and ignorant are easily suayed by lies, half-truths and garbage conspiracy theories with just enough background facts to make them sound "credible". This article (and who is this Griffin guy anyway?) has holes all the way through it-the guy wouldn't know "logic" if it bashed his skull in. Absolute garbage.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

jhhachamp
01-25-2006, 10:18 AM
It's actually obscene that members of this board are playing up this Internet conspiracy theory. No one THINKS any more; if it's on the Internet or TV, then GEEZ...it's got to be "true". Think for a moment, you morons who actually suck this garbage up...regardless of how poor our current leaders are, both morally and performance-wise, no one, NO ONE would allow this to happen. Many of the Arabs, Europeans and other anti-American types push this garbage...I would have expected better of the people on this board. Then again, we DO have some '***** among us.

It would be nice if we could know for sure that this sort of conspiracy absolutely did not happen. However, the reality is that there is that possibility, no matter how much you try to convince yourself and others differently. I think this video is interesting to say the least, but I know not to just buy into it without thought. I will maintain that there is a possibility of a government conspiracy as the cause of 9/11.

I also think the article posted by lude popper seems more credible to me than the movie. I am curious how you would address the section of the article called Multiple Evidence of Controlled Demolition.

jhhachamp
01-25-2006, 10:35 AM
I must say though, I am not so sure. I think deep in Osama's mind he's wishing he were in a jacuzzi in America after going to the gym, getting ready for a nice night out.

Let's face it, he's in some dumpy hideout/cave right now. You think he enjoys that? I'm not so certain. He knows he's faced with living this way the rest of his life....i'm sure he'd trade that in for high quality US/European living. Just as i'm pretty sure all the other high ranking terrorists would give up what they do if they were guaranteed all the perks of high class living and freedom.


Well, he probably has no understanding of what our sort of living is like, so I don't think he would rather have it. He was raised in his way of life, and that seems like the right way to him I am sure.

But given the proper opportunity and reintroduction of these societies in a neutral manner, I believe they would choose the more "logical" way of living life.

What exactly do you mean here? Are you talking about a neutral introduction to all societies or to our society in the US? And I don't know what you mean by reintroduction. Are you talking about if they were born here instead?

nuskool
01-25-2006, 01:12 PM
First of all I am a redneck right wing @ss hole conservitive that bleeds red, white, and blue and fcking proud to be american and I'm not saying that you nut jobs can't have crazy conspiracys but please go somewhere else to do it out side America to do it. I here Iraq's nice this time of the year. The goverment is not behind 911 and to say that is to disrespect the memory of all those who died on 911 expecally the firefighters who went in just to save lifes. That's my 2 cents if you have a problem with I don't give a *** and shove your opinion up your @ss because no one cares about what nut jobs think except for nut jobs. (pardon my French)

Phil
01-25-2006, 05:21 PM
It would be nice if we could know for sure that this sort of conspiracy absolutely did not happen. However, the reality is that there is that possibility, no matter how much you try to convince yourself and others differently. I think this video is interesting to say the least, but I know not to just buy into it without thought. I will maintain that there is a possibility of a government conspiracy as the cause of 9/11.

I also think the article posted by lude popper seems more credible to me than the movie. I am curious how you would address the section of the article called Multiple Evidence of Controlled Demolition.

I would say that A) The buildings did not "neatly" fall in on themselves, pancake like, hence saving other buildings. The collapse destroyed or badly damaged a number of buildings in the area, regardless of what you think you saw on some video circulated on the Internet-I was at Ground Zero a couple months after 9/11 and saw the damage to buildings that I once frequented, when I lived in NYC. And B) "Controlled" demolition of a sort DID occur because 350,000 pound aircraft filled with half that much fuel bored into the buildings and then, while inside the building with all that fuel, exploded. These asswipes can make all the calculations they want, but no one has engineering or scientific data on the damage done by such a "weapon" because it never occured before. There is no "base" to calculate from. I can rip this article to shreds, but this is not the place, and I don't have the time.

Anyway, Steve, get out your tin foil hat and go to work-I think those government radio waves are doing a job on your gray matter. Do you attend Cornell-are you the stuff that the so-called Ivy League is turning out these days? Jeez, you and Breakpoint-amazing what you can do if you pay (or otherwise) the right people.

fishuuuuu
01-25-2006, 05:30 PM
I would say that A) The buildings did not "neatly" fall in on themselves, pancake like, hence saving other buildings. The collapse destroyed or badly damaged a number of buildings in the area, regardless of what you think you saw on some video circulated on the Internet-I was at Ground Zero a couple months after 9/11 and saw the damage to buildings that I once frequented, when I lived in NYC. And B) "Controlled" demolition of a sort DID occur because 350,000 pound aircraft filled with half that much fuel bored into the buildings and then, while inside the building with all that fuel, exploded. These asswipes can make all the calculations they want, but no one has engineering or scientific data on the damage done by such a "weapon" because it never occured before. There is no "base" to calculate from. I can rip this article to shreds, but this is not the place, and I don't have the time.

Anyway, Steve, get out your tin foil hat and go to work-I think those government radio waves are doing a job on your gray matter. Do you attend Cornell-are you the stuff that the so-called Ivy League is turning out these days? Jeez, you and Breakpoint-amazing what you can do if you pay (or otherwise) the right people.

I don't really mean to keep this fire burning upon high (Hah! I made a funny), but just as a person who personally visited Ground Zero ... where/did you see any minor debris? Only dust and ruined rubble remained from pictures circulating the internet ... by logic other debris should be all over the place mostly intact.

Phil
01-25-2006, 05:40 PM
I don't really mean to keep this fire burning upon high (Hah! I made a funny), but just as a person who personally visited Ground Zero ... where/did you see any minor debris? Only dust and ruined rubble remained from pictures circulating the internet ... by logic other debris should be all over the place mostly intact.

Yeah, you're a real bundle of laughs.

I saw destroyed buildings-some were damaged so badly that they were eventually demolished. The store where I often buy outlet-priced designer business clothes, Century-21, which was located across the street from WTC, had it's entire facade shredded. Massive damage, and it was almost condemed, but they decided to refurbish and it opened again for business 6 months later. So, something-parts of the buildings, debris, etc. had to fly off the WTC in order to do that kind of damage to neighboring buildings. By the time I visited, much of the larger debris were gone.

This is my last post on this subject-it has no business on this board-you and your tin foil friends can play among the yahoos and find plenty of "information" from the many conspiracy sites that pollute the Internet.

fishuuuuu
01-25-2006, 05:44 PM
Yeah, you're a real bundle of laughs.

I saw destroyed buildings-some were damaged so badly that they were eventually demolished. The store where I often buy outlet-priced designer business clothes, Century-21, which was located across the street from WTC, had it's entire facade shredded. Massive damage, and it was almost condemed, but they decided to refurbish and it opened again for business 6 months later. So, something-parts of the buildings, debris, etc. had to fly off the WTC in order to do that kind of damage to neighboring buildings. By the time I visited, much of the larger debris were gone.

This is my last post on this subject-it has no business on this board-you and your tin foil friends can play among the yahoos and find plenty of "information" from the many conspiracy sites that pollute the Internet.

I'm glad you enjoy my posts, but it was in earnest. Too bad about the clothes store.

Phil
01-25-2006, 06:13 PM
Too bad about the clothes store.

"Earnest", huh? A real bundle of laughs...

fishuuuuu
01-25-2006, 06:19 PM
"Earnest", huh? A real bundle of laughs...

Haha I'm glad you're still finding enjoyment ... but really, what kind of guy doesn't like to be well dressed ...

DashaandSafin
01-25-2006, 08:07 PM
"Earnest", huh? A real bundle of laughs...
Eh, if your such an anti-conspiracist, then try to find facts that would disprove that video. I dont want to belive it but that video does provide some chilling "facts". I normally hate conspiracists and i do temporarily get sucked into a conspiracy video, however normally i just look up some facts and such and move on with life. This video, however, provides some good facts as well as bullsh*t facts. The fact on voice changing blah blah, its doubtful. However, the fact of only less than one percent for a call to get through at cruising altitude is intresting.
Again, i normally despise conspiracists, but they do make our lives intresting, or fill it with garbage.


BTW, has anyone seen the conspiracy video on the subject of the landing on the moon? I found that one intresting as well. Some facts were good, others were a bit off. Another surpising video to watch.

Fee
01-25-2006, 09:50 PM
Go to the link that Phil provided. Read the entire site.

jhhachamp
01-25-2006, 10:45 PM
Anyway, Steve, get out your tin foil hat and go to work-I think those government radio waves are doing a job on your gray matter. Do you attend Cornell-are you the stuff that the so-called Ivy League is turning out these days? Jeez, you and Breakpoint-amazing what you can do if you pay (or otherwise) the right people.

Hey, easy there. I admit that I do not know all that much about politics, but I am starting to get interested in them. Right now, I have a very open mind. I did not say that I believed the article, just that it sounded somewhat legit. I know that people can make absolute garbage sound legit to those who don't know all that much, which is why I was asking for you to point out the flaws.

Phil
01-25-2006, 11:01 PM
Hey, easy there. I admit that I do not know all that much about politics, but I am starting to get interested in them. Right now, I have a very open mind. I did not say that I believed the article, just that it sounded somewhat legit. I know that people can make absolute garbage sound legit to those who don't know all that much, which is why I was asking for you to point out the flaws.

Okay, no problem. For a start, you can read the link I posted, as Fee suggested. I suggest you read whatever you can based on your interests, but if it's comes from the Internet and is not a source that has been verified-take it with a grain of salt-a big grain.

nViATi
01-25-2006, 11:23 PM
tin foil friends
You made my day Phil! Thanks :p

Kevin T
01-26-2006, 08:31 AM
There's a great alien autopsy video out there, as well. Convincing stuff, indeed. I'm with Phil. If we as a nation are producing "critical thinkers" like the conspiracy buffs here, we're done as a nation.

jhhachamp
01-26-2006, 08:57 AM
Okay, no problem. For a start, you can read the link I posted, as Fee suggested. I suggest you read whatever you can based on your interests, but if it's comes from the Internet and is not a source that has been verified-take it with a grain of salt-a big grain.

I can't seem to find the link you posted. Repost it?

Fee
01-26-2006, 09:25 AM
Post #49

(which is on page 4 of this thread)

donnyz89
01-26-2006, 05:36 PM
there is no need to debate about what really happened. if you watched the vid, its obvious that its saying 911 was a government planned attack not a terroist attack. unless you have other facts, its useless to repeat what was on the video.

jhhachamp
01-26-2006, 06:56 PM
there is no need to debate about what really happened. if you watched the vid, its obvious that its saying 911 was a government planned attack not a terroist attack. unless you have other facts, its useless to repeat what was on the video.

Yawn.

tennis_nerd22
08-10-2006, 04:57 PM
2 questions, one supports the conspiracy theory, the other doesnt.

1) What happened to the pilots of the "planes" that hit the pentagon and the one that crashed down in pensylvania (sorry cant spell that). Who would've have piloted those planes? especially if they were smaller military planes and not boeing 757's.

2) related to the above, the plane that hit the pentagon could not have been a 757. the 16 foot hole went though to the second ring of the pentagon (something like that), but the point is, the plane would've had to go through 9 feet of steel and concrete to create that hole. however there was nothing else left of the plane at the end of that hole, which means it could NOT have been the nose of the plane. what else could it have been other than a missile?


i think this is an interesting theory, yes you cant believe everything you hear/see on the internet, like you said Phil, but when you look at the facts, and how things are now, with Bush in Iraq with the war and no weapons have been found. the only thing they have to show for it is capturing Saddam. and who knows? maybe the capturing of Saddam was fake too? the way 9/11 was planned by the high levels of the government (according to that theory in the OP's vid), i wouldnt be surprised if what we see on the news and what we have seen is fake as well.

sportsfan92
08-10-2006, 05:14 PM
check out http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...tml?page=1&c=y and http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1227842.html yes - it's from popular mechanics - a magazine that has built it's reputation on scientific fact, not political persuasion. it addresses many of the 'theories' out there... i am with whoever said there is no way you could keep everyone quiet that it would take to keep this 'conspiracy' a secret...

and if you want something more personal....i went to two memorials in the weeks following 9/11 for two people on the plane that went into the Pentagon. mother & father in-law to my sister. grandmother and grandfather to my niece and nephew. father to my brother-in-law. real people. while there visited with a pilot who was in line for take-off at Logan (Boston) between the two planes that hit the towers. he actually saw one of them veer off to go toward NYC after take off. there was no media there (left or right) for him to play to - he was simply remembering the eeriness of that day and the reality that it could have just as easily have been his flight.

that first hand enough for you?

Phil
08-10-2006, 05:16 PM
I guess the news yesterday has contributed to reviving this LONG DEAD thread...anyway, glancing over it just confirms what a mush-brain 35foot6ofnothing really is...

It's only a matter of time before this thread morphs into something like "UK Plane Plot Really a Scam by Whitehall and Washington" or something to that effect. We should see the conspiracy theories on the Internet any....now! Some people don't have the capacity to understand that we DO have enemies.

tennis_nerd22
08-10-2006, 05:54 PM
I guess the news yesterday has contributed to reviving this LONG DEAD thread...anyway, glancing over it just confirms what a mush-brain 35foot6ofnothing really is...

It's only a matter of time before this thread morphs into something like "UK Plane Plot Really a Scam by Whitehall and Washington" or something to that effect. We should see the conspiracy theories on the Internet any....now! Some people don't have the capacity to understand that we DO have enemies.

maybe we have enemies because we (well not we, the US) tried to frame them? think about it... im just wondering.

EDIT: btw Phil, im still waiting for your reply to my above 2 questions...

Phil
08-10-2006, 06:10 PM
maybe we have enemies because we (well not we, the US) tried to frame them? think about it... im just wondering.

EDIT: btw Phil, im still waiting for your reply to my above 2 questions...

Yeah, we're trying to "frame" Osama bin Laden, your hero...he certainly doesn't act like a man unfairly framed. Those scumbags caught yesterday? We framed them. Hopeless.

Your first question is strange. Unless our evil goverment sucked the pilots out of their planes before impact with its uber secret transport technology, I would venture to make a really wild guess and say that they DIED along with the rest of the hijackers and passengers.

#2, read my link posted in #49. Otherwise, I'm not going to argue dumbass Internet conspiracy theories.

sportsfan92
08-10-2006, 06:23 PM
Eh, if your such an anti-conspiracist, then try to find facts that would disprove that video. I dont want to belive it but that video does provide some chilling "facts". I normally hate conspiracists and i do temporarily get sucked into a conspiracy video, however normally i just look up some facts and such and move on with life. This video, however, provides some good facts as well as bullsh*t facts. The fact on voice changing blah blah, its doubtful. However, the fact of only less than one percent for a call to get through at cruising altitude is intresting.
Again, i normally despise conspiracists, but they do make our lives intresting, or fill it with garbage.


BTW, has anyone seen the conspiracy video on the subject of the landing on the moon? I found that one intresting as well. Some facts were good, others were a bit off. Another surpising video to watch.


go to http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html and see how Popular Mechanics, a magazine with a reputation for scientific fact, addresses many of the conspiracies talked about in this thread.

d_frank
08-10-2006, 07:01 PM
if you clowns still believe these conspiracy theories, check this.

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html

Lakoste
08-11-2006, 05:08 AM
I watched this a while ago as a form of entertainment, I found it to be clever, but didn't really think it was what really happened, and I still dont.

I think people get carried away when they read/watch something like this, but then forget there are tons of other sites/movies that directly refute what this movie is trying to say. So I'm cool with people believing the whole "our government was responsible for 9/11", but I'm not cool with people watching this and basing their entire arguement on it.

tennis_nerd22
08-11-2006, 05:39 AM
Yeah, we're trying to "frame" Osama bin Laden, your hero...he certainly doesn't act like a man unfairly framed. Those scumbags caught yesterday? We framed them. Hopeless.

Your first question is strange. Unless our evil goverment sucked the pilots out of their planes before impact with its uber secret transport technology, I would venture to make a really wild guess and say that they DIED along with the rest of the hijackers and passengers.

#2, read my link posted in #49. Otherwise, I'm not going to argue dumbass Internet conspiracy theories.

wow i love americans when they get mad or you insult their government, just asking for OPINIONS :rolleyes: thanks phil, you put a smile on my face. and phil, osama isnt really my hero, your my hero. a regular senseless american.

i didnt say the conspiracy is what really happened, because even Bush isnt stupid enough to kill people in his own country... (i hope). i just had a couple of questions/theories regarding whether the conspiracy is true or not, to which i wanted to hear people's opinions. and you respond by saying Osama is my hero.

thank you very much, have a great day

tennis_nerd22
08-11-2006, 05:41 AM
I think people get carried away when they read/watch something like this, but then forget there are tons of other sites/movies that directly refute what this movie is trying to say. So I'm cool with people believing the whole "our government was responsible for 9/11", but I'm not cool with people watching this and basing their entire arguement on it.

your right, its really hard to trust things on the internet. the only thing im intrigued by is how the WTC collapsed, with the bottom collapsing first, when the top (well not the exact top, but a lot closer to the top) was hit. and that 16 foot wide hole in the pentagon that could not have been the plane's nose... maybe for the pentagon it was fire? :| i was just really "awed" by that.