View Full Version : The greatest trick Wilson every pulled ...

Tim Tiger Henman
02-28-2004, 02:42 AM
... was convincing the world that the tour 90 was a decent racquet. It isn't. It is made of that horrible material known as "hyper-carbon". This stuff is so stiff it will do your elbow in.

I challenge anyone to name a pro (mens) player who actually uses hyper-carbon in their frame.

Hyper-carbon = Hyper elbow problems.

We were hustled, conned, bamboozled, flim-flamed, taken for a ride, led up the garden path.

02-28-2004, 03:03 AM
I always thought HyperCarbon was to blame for Wilson's stiff, brittle feeling racquets but now realize after using a HH 6.6 Rollers and HPS 7.1 Zone which are very comfy, that it is just the construction of the individual racquets.

02-28-2004, 05:36 AM
I'm sure they can make Hyper Carbon flexy if they want to, they just want to associate the stuff with stiff power.

Tim Tiger Henman
02-28-2004, 06:11 AM
@wright - Yep - power it has aplenty.

Just no touch/control/bio-friendliness.

It is my understanding that Pro and advanced players do not need extra power. What we need is consistent touch and control.

The Tour 90 really reminds me of the Hyper Pro 5.0. Very similar. The whole feel of the racquet is dictated by the hyper material.

In which case it is very much a tweener.

02-28-2004, 07:01 AM
Tiger, IMHO every player I met that uses the HPS 5.0, 6.5, or 6.1 95 either ends up with shoulder or elbow problems. Players rave about the Wilson stiff feel yet their arms are in a bag. No genius here, used an Ultra 2 for 10 yrs and wondered why my arm was sore. Moved on to a Profile to finish the abuse.

louis netman
02-28-2004, 09:02 AM
agreed. hyper carbon = hyper arm problems. with the exception of the rok and maybe the 7.1 zone, wilson (and prince) have been coming up with some pretty stiff entries.
a proposed theory: i think the average person becomes used to the stiffer/lighter frames during the learning of the game.....then as they get better and seek more of a "player" oreiented frame, they desire and seek that same stiff feel they're accustomed to. hence, all of that stiff "player" crap coming from wilson & prince equals big bucks$$$!!!. beginning (and some advanced) players need to be educated...

02-28-2004, 09:08 AM
I used a tour 90 weighted to 13 oz yesterday strung at 60 with nxt 17 and leather power pads under the throat, no vibration dampener.

No arm problems at all and I was hitting out.

My go-to raquet is the 85 but I do faver the older heavier and more flexible versions.

Lighter raquets and bad technique will give you arm problems for sure. If you have arm problems with a heavier stick, and you have good technique, try a softer string.

02-28-2004, 10:59 AM
with the high performance racquets like the tour 90 you have to lift weights and keep your arms in shape or they'll kill you, happened to me with the tour 90 but it was my fault, the 2-3 weeks before i played with it i wasn't able to lift and keep my arms in shape, and also that particular time hurried up with my stretching cause i wanted maximum indoor time, and the elbow problems came, now i'm back and lifting and making sure i do the stretches. i had an elbow problem with the prince triple threat hornet same thing happened i didn't lift for like a month and my stretching program wasn't good enough, don't blame the racquet to use the tour 90

My tips for the tour 90
-make sure you hit dead center it will decrease impact on elbow
-make sure you stretch the forearms
-use good technique
-have an advenced knowledge of the game

don't blame the tour 90 its like a magic wand if the person who uses it uses it correctly

i also have a cream for tennis elbow, i will post a review on it in the health and fitness section in the upcoming weeks

02-28-2004, 03:28 PM
The only real problem with my Tour 90 is its balance. Wilson and TW say it's 9 pts HL but mine balances at only 6.6 and feels quite unwieldy. If only it is around 10 pts HL like my PS 6.0 85 which I can swing rather sharply! As for stiffness, it certainly tires my arm more but seems to give instead more crisp feel and solid resistance against heavy balls. And to me Tour 90's stiffness feels positively different from that of thicker but hollow framed lightweight sticks.

Craig Sheppard
02-28-2004, 04:50 PM
Agreed Tim, HyperCarbon is HyperCrap. Wilson had turned downhill with the Hammer System, and then went faster down with the Triad, and now HyperCarbon is just speeding up the decent.


02-28-2004, 05:32 PM
I don't find the whole Hyper Carbon thing to be so conducive to elbow problems. I hit with the Hyper PS 5.0 when it came out and I didn't think it was that bad...it was stiff, but it wasn't that bad. I have a pair of Tour 90's and I think they're great racquets. They aren't overly stiff, and they force me to not be lazy, which is always a good thing for me.

I don't think that Hyper Carbon is to blame for elbow problems and arm problems. The majority of those come from a lack of stretching or strength training to protect the tendons and ligaments. Bad form is also one of those things that can accelerate elbow and shoulder problems, IMO.

As a side note, I used to hit with a Pro Staff Classic 6.1, which is really stiff as well. My Tour 90 feels very soft and flexy compared to the 6.1. Also, it may help to not stick strings that are as stiff as wire in the racquet if you're trying to avoid arm problems.

02-28-2004, 05:47 PM
also demoed the tour90, but didn't like it, the weight/balance/hyper, whatever it was. i've played w/ the psc6.1 and ps6.0 85 previously.

some pros that use the hyper i think are the bryan bros (hps 5.0 stretch), and i think there are many out there that use the hps 6.1. supposedly federer uses a customized tour 90 (does customization mean that they took out the hyper stuff? lolz, who knows)

i do agree that the hyper carbon is a stiff, lightweight material. i think that's the cause of arm/elbow problems.

02-28-2004, 05:52 PM
I dont think the tour 90 has hyper carbon in it..... because according to TW it is 80% Graphite and 20% Kevlar

02-28-2004, 05:57 PM
Tim ,

first it was the string - you wanna switch .
Now it is the racquet - adoring it at first and now this .
next thing you know you might ditch tennis and play basketball instead.

Kidding aside - different strokes for different folks .
you need to demo and demo and demo all the racquets and strings to come up with a combo that works for you .

i use a tour 90 and i dont get any arm problems .
maybe you need to look at your string .
I even had a flexy racquet before but with a stiff string and a lot of tension - i get some elbow pain as well .

work out a bit on your overall fitness and strength , and pick the right gear combo .

Alley Cat
02-28-2004, 06:17 PM
I think the Tour 90 is one of the most popular racquets on the earlier "favorite racquet poll" on this board. The HPS 6.1 is probably one of the most used racquets on the pro tour...go to a tourney and look at what most of the mid level pros are using (Bryan's, Bjorkman, Bhupati, Paes, etc.). Ironically, the only racquet that ever gave me elbow problems was the Pro Braided Henman (talk about stiff!). I think the Wilson conspiracy theory re: elbow pain is a little weak....I would just demo heavier, flexible sticks if I had a tender elbow

02-28-2004, 07:24 PM
Alley Cat, I really believe you are right as two years ago the 6.0 85, 6.1, and Bab PC just tweaked my inner elbow. Today after nearly 4 hrs of singles drills, 90 min yesterday, 2 1/2 hrs thursday, I am pain-free. Can use those racquets without a hitch, it was just meeting the ball late and off-center. Now I like a comfortable racquet like one of those comfort bikes with the big seat unlike riding the rails with a small head racquet.

02-28-2004, 07:30 PM
I can't say that all Hypercarbons are created equal. I've got some good impressions with some frames and poor impressions with others.

02-29-2004, 02:10 AM
Am I missing something? The Tour 90s composition is 80/20 graphite/braided kevlar acc. to TW specs. No hyper-carbon. Same as the PS 85.

Tim Tiger Henman
02-29-2004, 02:32 AM
Thanks for all the replys guys. Very welcome - even those I disagree with.

Actually the weight/balance is fine for me. Just to compare - I use up to 14oz (approaching even balance) racquets with no problems.

Its something about the material itself. And it is exactly the same problem I had with the hyper 5.0. Never had any problems with any other racquet - and I can tell you now I've used a lot. :wink:

I seriously doubt Federer uses hypercarbon. Why would he need the extra power and loss of control?

Maybe if I used perfect technique, stretched before hand, spent an hour warming up with a different racquet etc. it would be fine. But then I wouldn't need hypercarbon right???

Bottom line: People complain about the balance/flex of the Tour90 but in my experience that is miniscule. The major love/hate factor is the material. No prizes for guessing which side of the fence I fall on.

02-29-2004, 04:28 AM

Uh, all Hypercarbon is is high modulus graphite. It allows manufacturers to make lighter racquets than standard graphite, or it can be used as a strengthening material in the weaker spots of the frame.

Tendonitis simply because of Hypercarbon? Uh, I don't think so. You need to look elsewhere for that.

02-29-2004, 04:44 AM
Actually, Wilson introduces Tour 90 as follows:

Introducing the new Pro Staff Tour 90 for serious players with fast, long strokes. The Pro Staff Tour 90 is equipped with Hyper Carbon for the ultimate in power and strength. Double Braid technology gives the TOUR 90 exceptional feel. If you loved the 6.0 original, this stick is for you.

And its spec reads:

Sugg. Retail: US $159.99
Stock Number: T7496P
Balance: 9 pts HL Strung
Cross Section: 17 mm Flat Beam
Grip Size: 4 1/4"-4 5/8"
Headsize: 90
Length: 27"
Material: 80% braided Hyper Carbon Graphite, 20% Kevlar
Series: Hyper Pro Staff
SI: 6.0
String Pattern: 16x19
Swing Style: Fast and Long
String Tension: 50-60 lbs
Weight: 12.5 oz. Strung
And there's a print of "hyper-carbon" on the throat of my Tour 90 as well. BTW Tim, I envy your strong arm that can wield almost even-balanced 14oz rackets, but doesn't Tour 90's flex get affected by the very material you hate?

stainless steel rat
02-29-2004, 10:53 PM
The tour 90 is a good bit stiffer than 85 which is a good thing. I always felt the 85 to be too flexy for my tastes. And as far as the balance, if you're like me and put lead tape at 3 and 6 o'clock on the 85, you're already used to a little bit more weight in the head , which was the best setup for the 85 anyways, imho.

Hawaii 5.0
02-29-2004, 11:41 PM
Hyper Carbon is just a higher modulous graphite(stiff), but comparatively it's not that much stiffer than the graphite used in the rest of the frame.Tennis elbow and pain can be caused by increased weight,sw,lack of conditioning,predisposition to injury,too large or too small a grip size,bad technique,taking a long break,change in physical condition,strings,tension,balance.Any combo of those could lead to the tenderness in your arm so saying that Hyper Carbon is the cause isn't all that fair.Look at the Intellifiber series now that's a crock.Piezoelectric fibers that stiffen upon impact(milliseconds) will have a much stiffer feel than the RDC #'s people based things on which is taken over a few minutes or something and there is no way you can feel the actual RDC # unless you can keep the ball on the strings or frame for that long.Look at the TiRadical(very popular and comfy) to the IRadical(stiff and painful) and yet it seems the only real change was the Intellifibers???Sounds like your barking up the wrong company.Now the Intellifiber's are being somewhat countered by LM,Twin Tube and rubber coatings.

03-02-2004, 07:05 PM
I've never forgiven Wison for replacing the PSC 6.1 with the HPS 6.1. The racquets do not play at all like one another. I cannot speak to Hyper Carbon causing injuries because it took me all of 5 minutes to put away the HPS I was trying out and returning to the PSC. I bet the PSC 6.1 will return with the other "classics" (read: racquets Wilson stupidly discontinued) very soon.

04-13-2004, 06:50 PM
I dont know about the tour 90/95 but regarding the Hyper Carbon, I had a HPS 5.0 and I can say that it was as stiff as a baseball bat, although I have a very strong arm I sometimes felt pain in my forearm, and about the power, although they say it has too much power, it didnt feel nice every time you hit hard. Now I bought a new Prestige Tour 660 and I hit twice as hard and without pains. Wilson racquets are too damm stiff, they tried to compensate with the ROK which is a very flexible racquet.

04-13-2004, 07:25 PM
first it was the string - you wanna switch .
Now it is the racquet - adoring it at first and now this .
next thing you know you might ditch tennis and play basketball instead.

Kidding aside - different strokes for different folks .
you need to demo and demo and demo all the racquets and strings to come up with a combo that works for you