separation between hips and shoulders?

[tom-selleck]

i've notice that golf instruction has gone crazy on ratio between hip turn and shoulder turn on both backswing and impact position.

they call it the X-factor and you want larger shoulder turn than hip turn (twice as big) on backswing. and hips open at impact with shoulders lagging.

basically loads your shoulders and arms (wrist??) to rip thru the ball. and i always think it's good to rely alot on your big muscles in your golf swing.

is this relevent in tennis? wondering about forehand and backhand. seems obvious it would be true for 2HB (as alot of similarities to golf swing), not sure for forehand... problem i see is that tennis swing is so much shorter and takes less time than golf swing that not sure you really want to consciously lag the shoulders (and wrists too). edit: also, often jammed for time in tennis. not a concern in golf (unless you're sergio regripping).

any thoughts? i know i posted something somewhat similar the other day without much response, but i think i've thought about it alot more now....

does tennisplayer.net get into this stuff heavily?

[JohnYandell]

I'll be honest I think all these comparisons golf/tennis, tennis/baseball, golf/ice skating, tennis/whatever, almost always are misleading and do more harm than good.

There is no doubt that you can see this relationship in the difference in the angle of the hips and shoulders in all the shots in tennis.

You can see it on about 19,000 stroke clips on Tennisplayer. It's interesting and something to look for and maybe even a measure of the amount of coilng of which you are capable BUT...

Trying to create that displacement consciously in the course of the tennis swing is just crazy and wrong headed. The displacement occurs naturally as a result of a great turn and the right set up of the feet and the right swing shape with the racket.

I don't care how much you know about the X factor in golf--that's not going to turn you into Arnold Palmer. (Greatest turn ever, probably???) The great athletes are going to maximize the key technical factors and the rest of us can only aapproximate them.

Remember you are moving, the ball is moving. You have about a second or a little more between hits. So it happens much faster than the golf swing and under completely different circumstances. The implement the ball the position of the ball, the contact point in relation to the plane of the body, etc etc--all these are reasons not to try to translate these "insights"
directly from one sport to another.

Learning to do something is more a function of understanding cause and effect and making key positions than trying to isolate one factor is a very complex chain of movements.

[tom-selleck]

john, thanks for the response! and i agree with most of what you said.

except....are any of us trying to be arnold palmer (or roger federer?)??... OR,
just trying to get more efficient strokes and i find there's alot more good stuff on the physics (???) of golf than there are on the same for tennis.

i'll prepare to be flamed for this: but i think tennis is more athletic-oriented whereas golf is more complex AND more technical... just my thoughts having played tons of both. so mostly agree with you.

[Bungalo Bill]

i'll prepare to be flamed for this: but i think tennis is more athletic-oriented whereas golf is more complex AND more technical... just my thoughts having played tons of both. so mostly agree with you.

You are flamed! :)

I think each sport calls for its own athleticism. Tennis just happens to be more of a move while you hit sport.

Tennis is a technical sport and so is golf. Tennis is a complex sport as well. There are many different things a player has to learn in order to be more efficient and effective.

Each swing motion is different: Serves, volleys, backhands, forehands, half-volleys, swinging volleys, etc... and each has its own technical characteristics. Which is why I scratch my head when people blow off the technical side of tennis and think people are just going to "get it" in tennis.

[Match Po¡nt]

i'll prepare to be flamed for this: but i think tennis is more athletic-oriented whereas golf is more complex AND more technical.
Yes.....why of course! I agree with you.

I see golf more as like bowling, billiards, pitching baseball, archery, markmanship, etc. It demands fine motor-skills in order to be a pro golfer.

Tennis on the other hand requires fine motor-skills and athleticism (gross motor skills).

Of course both sports require other things as well such as strategic skills tactics etc.

I think tennis is the most difficult sport to master (not that I believe anyone can master anything in general). This is why tennis is my favorite sport to learn and play.

Oh wait....I'll have to disagree with you on the part where you said you think golf is more complicated and technical. Tennis can be complicated and technical as well. It depends on the style of play someone is aiming for and the type of plays that someone wishes to attempt that would then determine the complication level. That's what's great about tennis. There's a lot to tennis.

Pete Sampras was a "technician" with finess who made complicated delicate shots at net. He was athletic and was able to keep up with long rallies, which is rare for a S&Ver. He was also powerful, having explosive serves.

[Bungalo Bill]

YIt demands fine motor-skills in order to be a pro golfer.

Wait, I thought golf develops gross motor skill...what about that six pack I end up struggling through. :) It takes a lot of energy to lift up those cans.

[Match Po¡nt]

Wait, I thought golf develops gross motor skill...what about that six pack I end up struggling through. :) It takes a lot of energy to lift up those cans.Yeah......you are right. I've noticed that my arms and shoulders are huge from playing golf. You know when you flip out and then you need something to break?......well clubs are usually convient in hand and when you go to snap them upwards against your knee...well graphite is tougher to break than I thought......! :D

[Bungalo Bill]

Yeah......you are right. I've noticed that my arms and shoulders are huge from playing golf. You know when you flip out and then you need something to break?......well clubs are usually convient in hand and when you go to snap them upwards against your knee...well graphite is tougher to break than I thought......! :D

Exactly, tough workout throwing clubs and rolling golf carts over. but after the 13th hole my biceps get tired lifting those beers. :)

[tom-selleck]

the reason i said golf was more technical is that your game can get way out of sorts and you can have no idea why... i find tennis game doesn't get anywhere near as off and it's easier to fix with basic, general principles.

[Bungalo Bill]

the reason i said golf was more technical is that your game can get way out of sorts and you can have no idea why... i find tennis game doesn't get anywhere near as off and it's easier to fix with basic, general principles.

But wouldn't that be true with golf? I mean if I am spraying the ball (which happens a lot) aren't there basic fundamentals to review? Things like head down, let the club do the work, relax, etc.???

Tennis is a very technical sport in that there are a lot of different motions performed while moving. I also agree with you that golf is also very technical.

But in a vote for what sport was the most difficult (cant remember who did the poll) to get good at, tennis and golf were at the top.

Where is PUMA when you need him. He is someone on these boards that plays excellent golf and knows a lot about it. He is now a tennis player, I would like to hear his perspective.

[Puma]

Thanks Bill, I will toss in my .02


The x factor relates to shoulder turn versus hip turn. It is a measure of how much more the shoulder turn than the hips, which creates tension/torque. Look at Tiger and see in slo mo just how big his shoulder turn is "early" in his back swing. His back will be facing the target often before the club is at the top. This is very difficult to do. Just try it. And, don't bend the elbows or break over at the wrists. Also, keep the right leg still during this process.

For tennis, the one hander, we all do the same thing. Look at Federer, if I am not mistaken he dips his right shoulder down some and turns against his back foot. Same type of move as in golf. But, in tennis the turn is not as great and is done on the move. No need for such a big turn in tennis I guess. In both sports, weight transferring to the front foot leads the swing. This is why Bill keeps telling us to plant the front foot and we need to bend our knees. No foot planted no place for weight to go and no bent knees no ability to to contol weight shift.

I am not a tennis instructor, so I will stop shy of saying this is something we shouldn't concern ourselves with. It seems to me if a player gets into postion with foot work and uses proper (or his best) techniques he will make the turn his athletic ability will allow him to do. Thinking of a bigger turn will not do any good unless many other factors are spot on....

One thing I have learned about tennis is this: When I am hitting well, I will be moving my feet well which enables me to align my body so my shoulders operate as well as my ability allows at the moment. When I am hitting poorly it is usually because of slow feet. In this case I am often out of position and try to force something that will not work. So for me, in tennis, feet first and everything else follows. In golf, when I play, I think of making a good turn. A good turn leads to good shots.