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View Full Version : Maybe Henin has more guts than u think


vllockhart
01-28-2006, 05:48 AM
With so many people bashing Justine Henin right now, I think they might have missed something. Sure, most people think she should have toughed out another 4 games of the match. Sure, most people didn't see any signs of physical trouble before the retirement. Brad Gilbert said that she just didn't lay it on the line last nite and that she couldn't have gotten that sick since she out-dueled Sharapova two days ago.

But, maybe the Sharapova match is when she laid it on the line. If she was already feeling poorly two days prior then maybe the naysayers should look back and see how hard she played Sharapova at the end. Hey, we already know she'll do anything to win, we haven't forgotten her shameful display at Roland Garros v Serena. So I'd say she would have fought to the bitter end if she could have. Just because she wasn't being demonstrative in her pain doesn't mean she was faking it.

EmGee
01-28-2006, 07:33 AM
Tennis was a proud sport back then, and at the home of tennis on Centre Court one is oft reminded of the Kipling line: "If you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two impostors just the same". In a game between two parties one will triumph and one will be defeated. They call the players Ladies and Gentlemen, people who are supposed to be both gracious in triumph and defeat.

Mauresmo acquitted herself well, gracious to her opponent, offering words of solace and even her refusal to stir more controversy. But not Justine. She has failed to acknowledge Mauresmo's part in this two-person race, she has failed to acquit herself in the very spirit of tennis.

Perhaps Justine's pain was as debilitating as she would have it, preventing her to play her usual game. Perhaps Justine's pain was stopping her to finish the match. But to say that Mauresmo was anything but masterful in her game was a low jab. Mauresmo didn't just "keep the ball on court", but she played it with a precision and determination that should be acknowledged. Maybe if Justine was feeling better the scoreline would be much closer and the match more toughly fought. It wasn't that Mauresmo failed to bring her A-game on court, and Justine shouldn't try to make it that way. My only sticking point is not that Justine retired before the match was concluded, but at the way she belittled Mauresmo's efforts.

My other point is how people seem to belittle Mauresmo through fault not of her own making. Winning a slam is about skill and luck, and maybe Lady Luck favored Mauresmo more than most at this slam. But she did not cause Krajicek to succumb to heat, she did not cause Kimmy to play with her hip and roll her ankle afterwards. She did not cause Justine's abdominal pain. She was the last person standing and it was a credit to her for looking after her body that she could be passed as injury-free. If anything, more props must go to her as she seems to know how to. And more importantly, she was probably playing her A-Game throughout the tournament, and I don't think the scoreline would be very much different had the three retired players were otherwise. A tighter-fought scoreline, perhaps.

Many people say that for tennis to be a news, for tennis to have a higher rating, it is good to have people who would do everything to win (even by engaging in questionable on-court practices a la Kiefer). People say that for tennis to be more interesting, it is good to stir up some controversy, to have people who would do everything to not lose. We need bad boys and bad girls, they say. We need orgasmic shrieks and porn-grade clothes, they say.

We need to ditch that old "winning and losing graciously" tenet, they say. Kipling is a washed-up dead bloke, they say. To hell with "Ladies and Gentlemen", they say.

Time has changed of course, and I would not begrudge Baghdatis and his cheering family (for they bring much joy and flavour to the arena). But I would also hope that I can still listen to the pure sound of the ball bouncing off the racquet, bouncing of the grounds.

Let's not turn Tennis into WWE. Let's not turn Tennis into football or soccer or rugby or hockey, and their attendant cheering section. It will draw in more audience, it will draw in more money, generate more interest from the general public.

But, can we not, for four times every year (at least), have our own little utopia, our own little paradise, where people acquit themselves nobly, in triumph and especially in defeat.

As they say: many people can be gracious when they are winning, but the true measure of a person is how they carry themselves in the depth of their own adversity.

slice bh compliment
01-28-2006, 07:50 AM
Tennis was a proud sport back then, and at the home of tennis on Centre Court one is oft reminded of the Kipling line: "If you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two impostors just the same". In a game between two parties one will triumph and one will be defeated. They call the players Ladies and Gentlemen, people who are supposed to be both gracious in triumph and defeat.

Mauresmo acquitted herself well, gracious to her opponent, offering words of solace and even her refusal to stir more controversy. But not Justine. She has failed to acknowledge Mauresmo's part in this two-person race, she has failed to acquit herself in the very spirit of tennis.

Perhaps Justine's pain was as debilitating as she would have it, preventing her to play her usual game. Perhaps Justine's pain was stopping her to finish the match. But to say that Mauresmo was anything but masterful in her game was a low jab. Mauresmo didn't just "keep the ball on court", but she played it with a precision and determination that should be acknowledged. Maybe if Justine was feeling better the scoreline would be much closer and the match more toughly fought. It wasn't that Mauresmo failed to bring her A-game on court, and Justine shouldn't try to make it that way. My only sticking point is not that Justine retired before the match was concluded, but at the way she belittled Mauresmo's efforts.

My other point is how people seem to belittle Mauresmo through fault not of her own making. Winning a slam is about skill and luck, and maybe Lady Luck favored Mauresmo more than most at this slam. But she did not cause Krajicek to succumb to heat, she did not cause Kimmy to play with her hip and roll her ankle afterwards. She did not cause Justine's abdominal pain. She was the last person standing and it was a credit to her for looking after her body that she could be passed as injury-free. If anything, more props must go to her as she seems to know how to. And more importantly, she was probably playing her A-Game throughout the tournament, and I don't think the scoreline would be very much different had the three retired players were otherwise. A tighter-fought scoreline, perhaps.

Many people say that for tennis to be a news, for tennis to have a higher rating, it is good to have people who would do everything to win (even by engaging in questionable on-court practices a la Kiefer). People say that for tennis to be more interesting, it is good to stir up some controversy, to have people who would do everything to not lose. We need bad boys and bad girls, they say. We need orgasmic shrieks and porn-grade clothes, they say.

We need to ditch that old "winning and losing graciously" tenet, they say. Kipling is a washed-up dead bloke, they say. To hell with "Ladies and Gentlemen", they say.

Time has changed of course, and I would not begrudge Baghdatis and his cheering family (for they bring much joy and flavour to the arena). But I would also hope that I can still listen to the pure sound of the ball bouncing off the racquet, bouncing of the grounds.

Let's not turn Tennis into WWE. Let's not turn Tennis into football or soccer or rugby or hockey, and their attendant cheering section. It will draw in more audience, it will draw in more money, generate more interest from the general public.

But, can we not, for four times every year (at least), have our own little utopia, our own little paradise, where people acquit themselves nobly, in triumph and especially in defeat.

As they say: many people can be gracious when they are winning, but the true measure of a person is how they carry themselves in the depth of their own adversity.

Wow. Nice. Lemme guess, you drive an MG and you read stuff other than magazines. And one of your favorite books is The Sporting Gentleman by E. Digby Baltzell?
Well done, EmGee. Keep 'em coming.

erik-the-red
01-28-2006, 08:30 AM
I think all this bashing is unfair to her. What's up with all this "not being gracious" crap? As tennis players, do you find anything more frustrating in the short run than not being able to play your best when you need to?

There's a lot of really harsh comments toward JHH that I think are very unfair. Do you guys think you could tolerate losing both your parents at a young age and still have the determination to prove yourself on a show court like Suzanne Lenglen?

156MPHserve
01-28-2006, 09:32 AM
All I can say is, at the French, Agassi at 35, with problems WAY more serious than Hardenne played out a best of FIVE sets to his best so that his opponent would at least feel like he won the match. Hardenne just doesn't have what it takes, she's a coward.

slice bh compliment
01-28-2006, 09:37 AM
She may be selfish, but she is not a coward. She was not a coward when she beat Capriati in a US Open semifinal. What a comeback. She is a tremendous player who has psychological problems and a huge [albeit bruised] ego. This was a cry for help.

vllockhart
01-28-2006, 09:46 AM
[QUOTE=EmGee]

Many people say that for tennis to be a news, for tennis to have a higher rating, it is good to have people who would do everything to win (even by engaging in questionable on-court practices a la Kiefer). People say that for tennis to be more interesting, it is good to stir up some controversy, to have people who would do everything to not lose. We need bad boys and bad girls, they say. We need orgasmic shrieks and porn-grade clothes, they say.

QUOTE]


People get interested in tennis more for the player's exposure outside of the game than in it. How would the average non-tennis fan know these girls were shrieking or wearing too small clothes if they are not tuned in? Players like Serena and Venus and Agassi who make such a big splash off the court bring new fans in.

I think the way most of these players dress these days is just awful. I mean, I'm kind of sick of looking up their butts. What ever happened to a pair of nice shorts and a shirt? Tennis is not a glamorous sport, I don't care what you're wearing. When you're sweating and running and all stretched out and screaming you're just not looking good right then.

The Sharapova/Hantuchova match was a battle of the worst tennis outfits ever. The maternity thing Sharapova had on was beyond hideous. She's never worn a nice dress in life. And Hantuchova's tiny low ride shorts showing 3 inches of skin below the belly button made me want to puke. Contrary to modern fashions, that is NOT an attractive part of the female body. The area around the belly button is. That area Hantuchova was showing just looks like an unidentifiable piece of skin. Add to it that she is uber skinny and sickly looking and I could barely watch. Yech.

vicnan
01-28-2006, 09:48 AM
Yes, I don't think she is a coward. It is not her fault if she got dropped on her head as a new born, thereby losing the mental faculties that impart graceful and unselfish behaviour.

Sadyv
01-28-2006, 09:51 AM
Matt Lindland, Olympic silver medalist, when he was a high school wrestler, once used a pair of pliers to remove wires from his own broken jaw so that he could wrestle in the state championships.

JHH quit because her tummy hurt, and she was being destroyed by the better player that day. Out of arrogance and immaturity, she quit. She took her ball and went home, robbing her opponent and the fans of a complete match. She is a gutless coward, and a disgrace to true fighting champions.

sureshs
01-28-2006, 09:58 AM
Tennis was a proud sport back then, and at the home of tennis on Centre Court one is oft reminded of the Kipling line: "If you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two impostors just the same". In a game between two parties one will triumph and one will be defeated. They call the players Ladies and Gentlemen, people who are supposed to be both gracious in triumph and defeat.

Mauresmo acquitted herself well, gracious to her opponent, offering words of solace and even her refusal to stir more controversy. But not Justine. She has failed to acknowledge Mauresmo's part in this two-person race, she has failed to acquit herself in the very spirit of tennis.

Perhaps Justine's pain was as debilitating as she would have it, preventing her to play her usual game. Perhaps Justine's pain was stopping her to finish the match. But to say that Mauresmo was anything but masterful in her game was a low jab. Mauresmo didn't just "keep the ball on court", but she played it with a precision and determination that should be acknowledged. Maybe if Justine was feeling better the scoreline would be much closer and the match more toughly fought. It wasn't that Mauresmo failed to bring her A-game on court, and Justine shouldn't try to make it that way. My only sticking point is not that Justine retired before the match was concluded, but at the way she belittled Mauresmo's efforts.

My other point is how people seem to belittle Mauresmo through fault not of her own making. Winning a slam is about skill and luck, and maybe Lady Luck favored Mauresmo more than most at this slam. But she did not cause Krajicek to succumb to heat, she did not cause Kimmy to play with her hip and roll her ankle afterwards. She did not cause Justine's abdominal pain. She was the last person standing and it was a credit to her for looking after her body that she could be passed as injury-free. If anything, more props must go to her as she seems to know how to. And more importantly, she was probably playing her A-Game throughout the tournament, and I don't think the scoreline would be very much different had the three retired players were otherwise. A tighter-fought scoreline, perhaps.

Many people say that for tennis to be a news, for tennis to have a higher rating, it is good to have people who would do everything to win (even by engaging in questionable on-court practices a la Kiefer). People say that for tennis to be more interesting, it is good to stir up some controversy, to have people who would do everything to not lose. We need bad boys and bad girls, they say. We need orgasmic shrieks and porn-grade clothes, they say.

We need to ditch that old "winning and losing graciously" tenet, they say. Kipling is a washed-up dead bloke, they say. To hell with "Ladies and Gentlemen", they say.

Time has changed of course, and I would not begrudge Baghdatis and his cheering family (for they bring much joy and flavour to the arena). But I would also hope that I can still listen to the pure sound of the ball bouncing off the racquet, bouncing of the grounds.

Let's not turn Tennis into WWE. Let's not turn Tennis into football or soccer or rugby or hockey, and their attendant cheering section. It will draw in more audience, it will draw in more money, generate more interest from the general public.

But, can we not, for four times every year (at least), have our own little utopia, our own little paradise, where people acquit themselves nobly, in triumph and especially in defeat.

As they say: many people can be gracious when they are winning, but the true measure of a person is how they carry themselves in the depth of their own adversity.

Hear, hear.

ktownva
01-28-2006, 10:24 AM
Before the AO final, I thought JHH was a fighter, a true warrior, someone who consistently showed the remarkable will to fight her way back into a match. She has gone to great lengths to win in the past, even resorting to poor sportsmanship, questionable injury timeouts, smack talk, ect... Of all the players she is the last one I would expect to just fold the way she did. She is known for gamesmanship of all types, but just quitting is a new one. Congrats to Amelie for her well-deserved win.

skip1969
01-28-2006, 10:41 AM
All I can say is, at the French, Agassi at 35, with problems WAY more serious than Hardenne played out a best of FIVE sets to his best so that his opponent would at least feel like he won the match. Hardenne just doesn't have what it takes, she's a coward.


um . . . er . . . we don't even know what she's got, really. so how can you be sure agassi had "problems WAY more serious?" unless you're her friggin' doctor.

irrelevant comparison. circumstantial conclusion, at best.

pain is pain. and it's also relative.

skip1969
01-28-2006, 10:42 AM
She may be selfish, but she is not a coward. She was not a coward when she beat Capriati in a US Open semifinal. What a comeback. She is a tremendous player who has psychological problems and a huge [albeit bruised] ego. This was a cry for help.

thank you, oprah. or was that dr. phil?

skip1969
01-28-2006, 10:45 AM
Yes, I don't think she is a coward. It is not her fault if she got dropped on her head as a new born, thereby losing the mental faculties that impart graceful and unselfish behaviour.

and apparently, you were NOT dropped on your head as a child. yet, you're still so insightful, compassionate and non-judgemental.

skip1969
01-28-2006, 10:50 AM
Matt Lindland, Olympic silver medalist, when he was a high school wrestler, once used a pair of pliers to remove wires from his own broken jaw so that he could wrestle in the state championships.

JHH quit because her tummy hurt, and she was being destroyed by the better player that day. Out of arrogance and immaturity, she quit. She took her ball and went home, robbing her opponent and the fans of a complete match. She is a gutless coward, and a disgrace to true fighting champions.

im sorry to interrupt you, lord . . . but did you want the sinners to the left or to the right of the altar of judgement, your heavenliness.

slice bh compliment
01-28-2006, 11:03 AM
Hahah. You can't win with skip1969! Loved the Oprah/Phil McGraw jab!
Full of healthy doses of humor, sarcasm and a little bit of contradiction.

Lemme guess, 36 years old, amateur stand-up (minus the guts to take it on an actual stage at a comedy club), little bit negative at times, very unhappy with the ol' love life....am I warm? Not quite sure how he feels about the situation, and has not really found his voice...probably only skimmed the majority of this thread....takes swipes at the last few posts.

Now THAT, skippy, was Doctor Phil (minus the southern vernacular and colloquialism, of course).

No dis intended. Like you, just horsin' around ... kinda bored / excited about tonight's match.
later,
--slice.

vicnan
01-28-2006, 11:15 AM
and apparently, you were NOT dropped on your head as a child. yet, you're still so insightful, compassionate and non-judgemental.

Wow, what a way to put me where I belong. Wonderful post mate. Btw, did you know that there is more to making an argument than being to able form grammatically correct sentences?

Michael Haller
01-28-2006, 11:23 AM
All I can say is, at the French, Agassi at 35, with problems WAY more serious than Hardenne ...

"Way more serious"?
Where do you that from, dumbo?

shawn1122
01-28-2006, 11:29 AM
I agree with almost everything skip1969 says. Making assumptions like Agassi's sickness was 'way more serious' can really only be speculation, unless someonme has actually reported the exact cause of her sickness. For all we know, Justine Henin-Hardenne's might be found dead in the next couple of days because of her sickness (even though thats a bit of an exxageration.) All I'm trying to say is: everyone who calls her a coward or a weakling for not finishing the match are basing this on what they think they know about her personality. But, I can understand where the selfish comments are coming from (even though that may be the result of a language barrier.)

shawn1122
01-28-2006, 11:29 AM
I don't know why I double clicked the button...

skip1969
01-28-2006, 01:02 PM
Hahah. You can't win with skip1969! Loved the Oprah/Phil McGraw jab!
Full of healthy doses of humor, sarcasm and a little bit of contradiction.

Lemme guess, 36 years old, amateur stand-up (minus the guts to take it on an actual stage at a comedy club), little bit negative at times, very unhappy with the ol' love life....am I warm? Not quite sure how he feels about the situation, and has not really found his voice...probably only skimmed the majority of this thread....takes swipes at the last few posts.

Now THAT, skippy, was Doctor Phil (minus the southern vernacular and colloquialism, of course).

No dis intended. Like you, just horsin' around ... kinda bored / excited about tonight's match.
later,
--slice.

LOL! well, thanks for the laugh. i WOULD answer your post, but i'm not so sure how many posters actually want to know about little ol' me. i've already been scolded for being too sarcastic today (which i cannot deny).

but i will say this. i've never tried stand-up (cos i don't like attention). not negative at all. the love life is fine (though i'm not in love at the moment). and i read as many posts as i can, and as thoroughly as i can (cos i don't want to be careless).

i am 36, though. i know how to laugh at myself. i'm here to have a little fun, no harm intended. and i am very excited about the men's final.

tommytom11
01-28-2006, 02:43 PM
Matt Lindland, Olympic silver medalist, when he was a high school wrestler, once used a pair of pliers to remove wires from his own broken jaw so that he could wrestle in the state championships.

JHH quit because her tummy hurt, and she was being destroyed by the better player that day. Out of arrogance and immaturity, she quit. She took her ball and went home, robbing her opponent and the fans of a complete match. She is a gutless coward, and a disgrace to true fighting champions.

very well put. and don't forget she got paid for this crap!

Max G.
01-28-2006, 03:25 PM
I agree with almost everything skip1969 says. Making assumptions like Agassi's sickness was 'way more serious' can really only be speculation, unless someonme has actually reported the exact cause of her sickness.

Actually, even the "actual seriousness" of the injury is relatively irrelevant. What matters, with respect to whether-the-player-retires, is how much pain the injury causes. An injury that is pretty trivial but causes a lot of pain is much more difficult to play through than an injury that is serious but can be ignored with the help of painkillers.

Nalbandian
01-28-2006, 03:27 PM
"Way more serious"?
Where do you that from, dumbo?

STFU, troll. Your post has no value at all.

iscottius
01-28-2006, 03:41 PM
I think all this bashing is unfair to her. What's up with all this "not being gracious" crap? As tennis players, do you find anything more frustrating in the short run than not being able to play your best when you need to?

There's a lot of really harsh comments toward JHH that I think are very unfair. Do you guys think you could tolerate losing both your parents at a young age and still have the determination to prove yourself on a show court like Suzanne Lenglen?

Erik the red, you sound like eric the wussy. Yes, she has overcome graet tragedy in her life, but that is irrelevant to her behaviour, and her quiting in the middle of the finals. It is unfair to AM, the fans in the stadium who paid money, the people watching on TV, and lastly herself. She should no guts or grace in defeat. If she had toughed out the loss, and gave credit to Amelie she would have done alot to change her tarnished image, instaed she has turned off the tennis world.

williams planet
01-28-2006, 03:43 PM
Erik the red, you sound like eric the wussy. Yes, she has overcome graet tragedy in her life, but that is irrelevant to her behaviour, and her quiting in the middle of the finals. It is unfair to AM, the fans in the stadium who paid money, the people watching on TV, and lastly herself. She should no guts or grace in defeat. If she had toughed out the loss, and gave credit to Amelie she would have done alot to change her tarnished image, instaed she has turned off the tennis world.

I agree Scott. It was clear to me that Justine COULD carry on. Heck! She won the 33 stroke game against Amelie. If she couldn't carry on then she wouldn't be able to move. It wasn't her stomach that was bubbling up.....it was her PRIDE. Now the rest of her life she will be known as a disgrace.

skip1969
01-28-2006, 03:54 PM
Wow, what a way to put me where I belong. Wonderful post mate. Btw, did you know that there is more to making an argument than being to able form grammatically correct sentences?

oh, i'm sorry vicnan. i didn't realize that when you said, "It is not her fault if she got dropped on her head as a new born, thereby losing the mental faculties that impart graceful and unselfish behaviour" that you were actually putting forth a hypothesis that merited an ACTUAL reply. was i suppose to argue that little theory within the realms of fact and reason? and all the while i thought you were trying to be clever. my bad.

ok, lemme try again. so justine got dropped on her head as a child and THAT'S why she's so screwed up?? well, THAT explains everything. man, thanks for the info!

Max G.
01-28-2006, 04:12 PM
I agree Scott. It was clear to me that Justine COULD carry on. Heck! She won the 33 stroke game against Amelie. If she couldn't carry on then she wouldn't be able to move. It wasn't her stomach that was bubbling up.....it was her PRIDE.

I'm sorry, would you care to enlighten us as to how you know what Justine was feeling? Do you have a remote neuro-sensor that can somehow detect how many pain receptors were activated in her brain, and from this deduce that she could carry on?

vicnan
01-28-2006, 06:00 PM
was i suppose to argue that little theory within the realms of fact and reason?

It is not my theory mate. Perhaps you should read my earlier posts quoting from JHHs pre- and post-final interviews. I do like many things about JHH (again see earlier posts) and I often wonder why she hasn't won more. But this ******** behaviour (+ the hand incident) was too much for me esp. since all she had to do was stand there for ~10 min for the whole thing to be over. When an otherwise reasonable person makes dumb mistakes, you don't know how to explain it other than *may be* she was dropped on her head.

Rodeo
01-28-2006, 06:03 PM
I'm sorry, would you care to enlighten us as to how you know what Justine was feeling? Do you have a remote neuro-sensor that can somehow detect how many pain receptors were activated in her brain, and from this deduce that she could carry on?

The problem is that Justine has pulled some unsporting stunts in the past so people will no longer believe her. She has become kinda notorious for it. Remember the boy who cried wolf Max..:D

CoASH
01-28-2006, 06:28 PM
Maybe Henin has more Y chromosomes than you think