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scotus
02-11-2006, 01:52 PM
Here is a quote from the March 2006 issue of Tennis magazine, p. 25:

"None!... When the serve comes into play, it's crazy! Without a serve, I could beat any single one of them."
--Venus Williams on which male pros she could beat, in New York magazine."

So, it seems that she has finally given up on the idea that she could beat the ATP players. But on the other hand, she still thinks that she could beat "any one of them" if serves are taken away.

Hmm, can she beat Federer, Nadal, Agassi, or even Coria?

PM_
02-11-2006, 02:05 PM
ahhh, just some fun speculation. no harm in that.

Steve Dykstra
02-11-2006, 02:10 PM
I would say she is technically correct. If the male pros did not have serves, I am not sure how they would start the point when it was their turn to serve. They would probably double fault a lot without a serve, and Venus would only have to win a few points on her serve to win.

SteveI
02-11-2006, 02:10 PM
Here is a quote from the March 2006 issue of Tennis magazine, p. 25:

"None!... When the serve comes into play, it's crazy! Without a serve, I could beat any single one of them."
--Venus Williams on which male pros she could beat, in New York magazine."

So, it seems that she has finally given up on the idea that she could beat the ATP players. But on the other hand, she still thinks that she could beat "any one of them" if serves are taken away.

Hmm, can she beat Federer, Nadal, Agassi, or even Coria?

Hummm,

Only problem is that Venus would have to get the ball over the net more than 5 times in row to have a chance to beat any male player. On the WTA tour most ladies miss the court after about 5 balls. Once again.. the Williams Sister Act needs a nice dose of reality. Is she for real???

Regards,
Steve

ACE of Hearts
02-11-2006, 02:21 PM
It would be nice to have a match like that, both sisters against the in the middle of the pack players in the atp.I would love too see Bags vs Venus, pound her with those serves:) and then after the match Williams is all but humble:mrgreen:

Tim Tennis
02-11-2006, 02:58 PM
"None!... When the serve comes into play, it's crazy! Without a serve, I could beat any single one of them."
--Venus Williams on which male pros she could beat, in New York magazine."

Surely, she was just joking.

Shabazza
02-11-2006, 03:02 PM
she can't be so delusional, can she? must be a joke

superman1
02-11-2006, 04:36 PM
Venus at her very best could not even push...I don't know...Danielle Braccialli? I hope she was joking. If Agassi dinked his serves in, she still wouldn't win a game off of him. And Federer? Wow...

mellofelow
02-11-2006, 04:46 PM
Nuts!!! Imagine this, Venus against #200 male pro, let's let Venus serve a whole set. She'll still lose.

superman1
02-11-2006, 04:52 PM
It's just delusion. Men's tennis requires far more skill than women's. You can't just overpower the men from the baseline, especially if you're not as strong, fast, or skilled. If Martina Hingis was stronger and faster, she'd have a shot against a man even with a decent serve, she's a better volleyer than most of the men and has better court sense. But Venus Williams??

dozu
02-11-2006, 05:12 PM
it's another reflection of the inferiority complex for someone grown out of the gheto.

VGP
02-11-2006, 05:14 PM
Skill aside, if you've got a -32 differential on winners to unforced in two sets, Venus is high if she thinks she could beat "any single one of them."

snowpuppy
02-11-2006, 05:15 PM
This ones easy, just have male pro beat her on a type of match where only she serves.

progman_2000
02-11-2006, 05:29 PM
I thought Donald Trump tried to get Venus to play an exhibition with John Mac. a couple of years ago and Richard Williams was having none of it - a shame, would love to see Johnie Mac have a field day with her (and he would)

vllockhart
02-11-2006, 06:01 PM
Damn, yall are haters. Venus could certainly hold her own against male players. Hell, I've played male players in singles and beaten them. They are in better shape, have better serves and hit the ball harder than I do, but I compete better.

(I'm ranked a very humble 3.0, so I'm not talking about any high level tennis with here. ;) )


Don't forget, she's won grand slams in mixed doubles as well as singles, and I believe that a man was on the other side of the court during those matches.

Maybe she couldn't beat the men, but she'd win some games. So would Davenport, given that they are taller than a lot of the men. But gosh, yall are just haters, haters, haters.

johnathan smith
02-11-2006, 06:10 PM
I don't have a problem with the Williams, but to think that they could even win games against the top men in the world is crazy. They would get crushed and probably bagled against most d-1 college tennis players.

andfor
02-11-2006, 06:24 PM
Damn, yall are haters. Venus could certainly hold her own against male players. Hell, I've played male players in singles and beaten them. They are in better shape, have better serves and hit the ball harder than I do, but I compete better.

(I'm ranked a very humble 3.0, so I'm not talking about any high level tennis with here. ;) )


Don't forget, she's won grand slams in mixed doubles as well as singles, and I believe that a man was on the other side of the court during those matches.

Maybe she couldn't beat the men, but she'd win some games. So would Davenport, given that they are taller than a lot of the men. But gosh, yall are just haters, haters, haters.

There's a big difference between hating and knowing WTH you're talking about.

West Coast Ace
02-11-2006, 07:03 PM
Here is a quote from the March 2006 issue of Tennis magazine, p. 25:

"None!... When the serve comes into play, it's crazy! Without a serve, I could beat any single one of them."
--Venus Williams on which male pros she could beat, in New York magazine."

So, it seems that she has finally given up on the idea that she could beat the ATP players. But on the other hand, she still thinks that she could beat "any one of them" if serves are taken away.

Hmm, can she beat Federer, Nadal, Agassi, or even Coria?Venus must have a new hobby - stand up comedy.

DashaandSafin
02-11-2006, 07:07 PM
Damn, yall are haters. Venus could certainly hold her own against male players. Hell, I've played male players in singles and beaten them. They are in better shape, have better serves and hit the ball harder than I do, but I compete better.

(I'm ranked a very humble 3.0, so I'm not talking about any high level tennis with here. ;) )


Don't forget, she's won grand slams in mixed doubles as well as singles, and I believe that a man was on the other side of the court during those matches.

Maybe she couldn't beat the men, but she'd win some games. So would Davenport, given that they are taller than a lot of the men. But gosh, yall are just haters, haters, haters.
So your a 3.0. What males did you beat? 1.0s? Nice valid opinon buddy.

Venus surely you jest. I would be 1k on you not even getting 1 game in a set against a male pro.

West Coast Ace
02-11-2006, 07:14 PM
So your a 3.0. What males did you beat? 1.0s? Nice valid opinon buddy.

Venus surely you jest. I would be 1k on you not even getting 1 game in a set against a male pro.I was thinking about some friendly wagers to back her silly claim - I'd like to see any the top 20 males challenge her - $100k of their own money - put the ball in play underhand. I agree with you - if she won 1 game it would be surprising.

andfor
02-11-2006, 07:19 PM
So your a 3.0. What males did you beat? 1.0s? Nice valid opinon buddy.

Venus surely you jest. I would be 1k on you not even getting 1 game in a set against a male pro.

Getting a point would be a stretch.

VGP
02-11-2006, 07:20 PM
OK, take the guy's serve away. If that quote is correct, she says that she can beat any single one of them. I just don't think anyone in the top 40 would lose a match. Points....games....

I'm not trying to be a hater. Having seen Venus Williams play lately, her lack of variety, her inconsistency, I just don't see it happening. Sorry.

goober
02-11-2006, 07:20 PM
So your a 3.0. What males did you beat? 1.0s? Nice valid opinon buddy.

Venus surely you jest. I would be 1k on you not even getting 1 game in a set against a male pro.


Actually on the 3.0 level I think it is very possible for a female to beat a male. 3.0s are just trying to keep the ball in play and their serves have nothing on them.

As you go up in levels is where the difference in men and women begins to show. At the highest levels is where the biggest differences will be at.

fishuuuuu
02-11-2006, 07:23 PM
Getting a point would be a stretch.

Ah ah ... maybe if they doublefault once ... maybe ...

edberg505
02-11-2006, 07:49 PM
So basically she's saying she could beat Guillermo Coria? I think not! I'd love to see Fed serve underhand to her and she would just get owned!

arnz
02-11-2006, 07:58 PM
One time an instructor told me that the top women's player can be beaten by the 1000th ranked mens player, or a very good college player. Wasnt it Davenport who said she still cant beat her husband, and I dont think he plays anymore (if he even was a pro)

If the men didnt have a serve, they would still break her serve, so I still dont think she can beat them

Queensryche
02-11-2006, 08:08 PM
She's freaking high on crack.

If Michael Chang can serve underhand to beat Lendl.

What on earth does Venus have on lendl.

Lendl moves/returns/serves/passes better and he still lost if i recall.


And thats just Chang...

West Coast Ace
02-11-2006, 08:14 PM
She's freaking high on crack.Did anyone else think it was only a matter of time for someone to say this?

Klippy
02-11-2006, 08:31 PM
Welllllll, I think that if Venus got the whole doubles court to play into, her male opponent had no serves- she would just have to serve the whole match, she'd be able to get maybe one game. Maybe not. She'd definitely get a few points here and there. You gotta be happy with that. Common.

And anyway, maybe Venus was just clowning around?

Klippy
02-11-2006, 08:38 PM
I'd love to see Fed serve underhand to her and she would just get owned!
She would get owned?There's no word to describe how owned she's get. If Feds got to serve underhanded with his left hand, played in sandals, played in a straight-jacket, played with a patch over one of his eyes, maybe even both of his eyes (who knows, the guy's a genius?) played with a broken string, played in a wooden racquet, played in jeans, maybe even played with a saucepan, she's STILL get mega owned.

Klippy
02-11-2006, 08:43 PM
Hmmm...just another question. Getting a little weeny bit off-topic but anyway... It's funny how men are always stronger than women, if you think about it. I mean, is there at least one woman in the whole world that is stronger than a man? I bet there could be.

And another funny thing, I always beat all the guys in my class in arm wrestles, and I'm a girl. But they will probably be stronger than me when they're adults.

FalconX
02-11-2006, 08:53 PM
Mary Carillo was on Costas Now show last season on HBO and Costas asked her a question about whether a female pro would stand chance against male players. And she just shook her head like don't even go there. And I think she did say something along the lines of female players not being able to beat even top college players.

edberg505
02-11-2006, 08:57 PM
One other way to look at it is do you guys think Sherryl Swopes could take Kobe Bryant one on one? I THINK NOT!

Matt Riordan
02-11-2006, 09:34 PM
She would get owned?There's no word to describe how owned she's get. If Feds got to serve underhanded with his left hand, played in sandals, played in a straight-jacket, played with a patch over one of his eyes, maybe even both of his eyes (who knows, the guy's a genius?) played with a broken string, played in a wooden racquet, played in jeans, maybe even played with a saucepan, she's STILL get mega owned.


I would love to see her get humiliated - then just maybe she'd shut up! Speaking of frying pans, I once saw Tim Henman at an exhibition in London; he took turns rallying with a few of the (pretty good) locals... nothing unusual in that except he was rallying with a CRICKET BAT! I'm not kidding! Venus can't even get the ball in court half a dozen times with that enormous Wilson of hers! Now if she were to lose to a male pro using a cricket bat (or a frying pan) that would be a joy to see :)

devila
02-11-2006, 10:00 PM
Dementieva and Sharapova boasted that top 5 male players with big serves don't have an advantage over them.

Slazenger
02-11-2006, 10:02 PM
Umm... it was IN JEST. While I'm sure Tennis Mag expected that ppl would get that she was being facetious, they still should have kinda put her quote in context.

ssuHeartsRivald
02-11-2006, 10:05 PM
Hmm, can she beat Federer, Nadal, Agassi, or even Coria?
Dream on

superman1
02-12-2006, 12:03 AM
I think she probably played a charity match one day against Roddick and he was fooling around and she didn't realize it. "Hey, without that serve of his, he kind of sucks! He just hit the last ball into the stands, ironically where someone was waiting to catch it. Maybe I could beat him..."

The key thing is movement. The women just aren't fast enough. If Davenport punched me in the face, I'd be lights out, she's huge. But she'd have to catch me first!

DaveGrable
02-12-2006, 12:10 AM
If she played a match against Agassi and he served under-hand the entire time, he would still beat her 6-0, 6-0

superman1
02-12-2006, 12:14 AM
And after the match she would need an IV. She'd run more in that match than any she's ever played.

Shabazza
02-12-2006, 01:00 AM
Hmmm...just another question. Getting a little weeny bit off-topic but anyway... It's funny how men are always stronger than women, if you think about it. I mean, is there at least one woman in the whole world that is stronger than a man? I bet there could be.

And another funny thing, I always beat all the guys in my class in arm wrestles, and I'm a girl. But they will probably be stronger than me when they're adults.
simple biology: testosterone > estrogen in terms of pure power and endurance - nothing you can do about it, when it kicks in in a male the gap becomes huge!!!

superman1
02-12-2006, 02:29 AM
There are plenty of tiny, puny men out there that would get pummeled by an amazon woman. That's all negated on the tennis courts. I've seen plenty of small guys hit the ball as hard as anyone. They expend more effort, but they they make up for it with great endurance. It's just the physiology of men. It's why the average man off the street uses his whole body when he throws a baseball while the average woman doesn't. Those kinds of motions are built in.

slice bh compliment
02-12-2006, 03:17 AM
Welllllll, I think that if Venus got the whole doubles court to play into, her male opponent had no serves- she would just have to serve the whole match, she'd be able to get maybe one game. Maybe not. She'd definitely get a few points here and there. You gotta be happy with that. Common.

And anyway, maybe Venus was just clowning around?

Totally. I just read the article. I agree she was trying to be funny, saying that the men have incredible serves. In her insular world, this was actually meant as a compliment to male pros. It must be easy to sound like an *** when you're around non-tennis people who constantly feed your delusions. Why did she open up this old can of worms? It is not even interesting.

That said, women's tennis has come a long way, baby, but not far enough to dent a result like Braasch over the Williams sisters 1 and 2 four[?] years ago. Playing a ATP guy in the 200s, if Venus lost meekly while serving each game, she would say that the man's big return game is the difference.

rilokiley
02-12-2006, 04:39 AM
Ryan Sweeting, 2005 U.S. Open Junior Champ, beat MaSha 5 and 3. Venus beat a top male player? N**** please.

vllockhart
02-12-2006, 05:40 AM
There's a big difference between hating and knowing WTH you're talking about.

No, every one of you are being viscious haters. She'd probably beat the pants off half the guys on the pro tour and yall know it, that's what's drudging up all this venom.

FalconX
02-12-2006, 06:24 AM
No, every one of you are being viscious haters. She'd probably beat the pants off half the guys on the pro tour and yall know it, that's what's drudging up all this venom.

surely you can't be serious.

vllockhart
02-12-2006, 06:29 AM
surely you can't be serious.

As a heart attack.:mrgreen:

Don't hate, appreciate.

FalconX
02-12-2006, 07:08 AM
As a heart attack.:mrgreen:

Don't hate, appreciate.

while I appreciate you for standing up for women and I resist the notion that women are somehow inherently less athletic than men which some of posts here indicates I do believe I do believe females are at disadvantage as far as tennis is concerned. One is obviously that they are not allowed to compete against men. I do wonder how their game would develope if from the beginning they play against men and go on to compete against them as well. 2 is that I think as far as serving women are missing a lot of pectoral muscle tissue which develops more in men based on anatomy. If I'm not mistaken that can be overcome with hormones though.

Certainly if you look at athletics competitions male and female world records aren't that far distant from eachother. And I think within next 20-30 years women will even close in more and might overtake men in some fields.
http://www.gbrathletics.com/wrec.htm

andfor
02-12-2006, 07:43 AM
Ryan Sweeting, 2005 U.S. Open Junior Champ, beat MaSha 5 and 3. Venus beat a top male player? N**** please.

I am sure he was not even trying. He was probably trying to ensure his contact with her after the match though.

andfor
02-12-2006, 07:45 AM
No, every one of you are being viscious haters. She'd probably beat the pants off half the guys on the pro tour and yall know it, that's what's drudging up all this venom.

Here, this will make you feel better. Venus is the gratest and she could beat any male if they did not serve to her. Feel better, I do after hitting that crack like your on.

vllockhart
02-12-2006, 07:49 AM
Here, this will make you feel better. Venus is the gratest and she could beat any male if they did not serve to her. Feel better, I do after hitting that crack like your on.

Try not to speak directly to me in the future.

slice bh compliment
02-12-2006, 07:57 AM
So let's see, in this thread so far:
that's one 'Ni**a please' and
two references to crack-cocaine.

Hmmm.

andfor
02-12-2006, 07:58 AM
Try not to speak directly to me in the future.

OK Mr./Ms. taking themselves so seriously. You invited these responses by your silly assumptions. This is not the first time "girls are better than boys" has been debated on this board or anywhere else for that matter. This is the last time you and I will talk. Feel better?

DashaandSafin
02-12-2006, 08:00 AM
Try not to speak directly to me in the future.
Why don't you take your over the top feminist views out of the way and open your eyes and SEE that Venus would be beat by a Division I top college player?

Feminists like you are disgusting, just becuase a man can beat a woman in something and he speculates so, you jump on his back and call him a male chavunist. Please, have more valid opinons on this board before you get flamed off.

vllockhart
02-12-2006, 08:12 AM
Um, I never called anyone a chauvanist, so don't put words in my mouth. Nor did I say I was a feminist, don't put words in my mouth.

Venus can beat some male players, deal with it. Yall are the ones having such a big problem with Venus speculating on whether or not she could beat a man.

Several years ago when McEnroe was making such a big deal out of trying to challenge Venus and Serena, Venus said if she played an ATP player, she'd probably lose 2 and 2. Let's not harp on one out of context quote.

So you flame off. No, lose the "lame" and and add "uck"

Kobble
02-12-2006, 08:12 AM
I would like to see if she could beat Muster's right-handed game. Honestly, I think the idea that she could beat anyone inside the top 1000 is a joke.

West Coast Ace
02-12-2006, 08:29 AM
One is obviously that they are not allowed to compete against men. I do wonder how their game would develope if from the beginning they play against men and go on to compete against them as well. Have you been to a pro tournament? It's very common to see the women pros have male hitting partners. And don't think they don't play sets.

Vllockhart, you've probably ensured with your childish silliness ("please don't talk to me directly") on this thread alone that none of your future posts will be taken seriously - if read at all. You sound like the bitter one with issues.

vllockhart
02-12-2006, 08:31 AM
Have you been to a pro tournament? It's very common to see the women pros have male hitting partners. And don't think they don't play sets.

Vllockhart, you've probably ensured with your childish silliness ("please don't talk to me directly") on this thread alone that none of your future posts will be taken seriously - if read at all. You sound like the bitter one with issues.

You should also try to not speak directly to me.

VGP
02-12-2006, 08:58 AM
Venus could probably beat someone on the ATP tour. The original quote was that she said that she could beat "ANY SINGLE ONE OF THEM" which implies guys like Agassi, Roddick, and Federer. That I don't see.

Oh, and I realized that on this board, I can say anything I want, but please, no one respond directly to me and my opinions.....

hee. hee. Just poking fun. :cool:

sureshs
02-12-2006, 09:06 AM
Have you been to a pro tournament? It's very common to see the women pros have male hitting partners. And don't think they don't play sets.

I watched Daniela Hantuchova hitting with a guy at the Acura last year. This was a couple of hours before her doubles match, and it was being supervised by her coach. She was giving him a tough time. I watched for about 10 minutes, and it looked like she had the edge. On the other hand, he was probably not a pro - maybe a college player of some sort.

The gap is not as wide as it seems. In golf, Michelle or Annika might compete with the men one day, and we will see what happens.

156MPHserve
02-12-2006, 09:08 AM
any single one of them? I guess Federer is included in the mix... this will be fun =)

DashaandSafin
02-12-2006, 09:32 AM
Um, I never called anyone a chauvanist, so don't put words in my mouth. Nor did I say I was a feminist, don't put words in my mouth.

Venus can beat some male players, deal with it. Yall are the ones having such a big problem with Venus speculating on whether or not she could beat a man.

Several years ago when McEnroe was making such a big deal out of trying to challenge Venus and Serena, Venus said if she played an ATP player, she'd probably lose 2 and 2. Let's not harp on one out of context quote.

So you flame off. No, lose the "lame" and and add "uck"
? Seems like someones having her period:rolleyes:

Honestly, you are a feminist. She cant beat some male PRO players. She cant beat any male PRO players.

You state that Venus says she probably would lose 2 and 2. Then you claim that she would beat some male players. Am i the only one who sees a problem here?

BTW its not smart to tell some of the senior members here to get lost.

alexmath2
02-12-2006, 09:39 AM
I saw Martina Navritilova beat the number one player on our collegiate tennis team. It was a D1 school, but by no means a power. The school was Youngstown State and she was in town and wanted some practice. This was in 1989 or 1990 or 1991. She played him twice on successive days and won both times. The first time she crushed him 2 and 2. The next day it was a much better match, but she still won 4 and 5. The male opponent played an aggressive baseline game and she carved him up, even though when watching them warm up, you thought that there is nothing she did better than him. Pretty impressive, though she still would have lost to any male inthe top 100.

vllockhart
02-12-2006, 09:43 AM
? Seems like someones having her period:rolleyes:

Honestly, you are a feminist. She cant beat some male PRO players. She cant beat any male PRO players.

You state that Venus says she probably would lose 2 and 2. Then you claim that she would beat some male players. Am i the only one who sees a problem here?

BTW its not smart to tell some of the senior members here to get lost.

I get accused of being on crack and I'm the one who is wrong? You resort to saying I have my period and I'm wrong? Whatever people. This is a hate spewing thread and I'm done with it.

jaskey
02-12-2006, 10:01 AM
I watched Daniela Hantuchova hitting with a guy at the Acura last year. This was a couple of hours before her doubles match, and it was being supervised by her coach. She was giving him a tough time. I watched for about 10 minutes, and it looked like she had the edge. On the other hand, he was probably not a pro - maybe a college player of some sort.

The gap is not as wide as it seems. In golf, Michelle or Annika might compete with the men one day, and we will see what happens.

don't shoot me, but is golf really a good comparison to tennis? i think golf takes less muscles and more tactics, where as tennis takes more muscles, insticts, and strategy. and no i'm not putting down golf nor tennis, just an observation.

goober
02-12-2006, 10:02 AM
I saw Martina Navritilova beat the number one player on our collegiate tennis team. It was a D1 school, but by no means a power. The school was Youngstown State and she was in town and wanted some practice. This was in 1989 or 1990 or 1991. She played him twice on successive days and won both times. The first time she crushed him 2 and 2. The next day it was a much better match, but she still won 4 and 5. The male opponent played an aggressive baseline game and she carved him up, even though when watching them warm up, you thought that there is nothing she did better than him. Pretty impressive, though she still would have lost to any male inthe top 100.


Well you are right Youngstown state is not a powerhouse in D1 or even probably a top 50 school in D1. The number #1 singles player was almost certainly not even ranked in the top 100 for college singles and probably closer to the 200 range. I wonder how she would have done against any college player ranked in the top 10. If Martina really thought that men and the women were equal why didn't she seek out the #1 female player on the womens team?

fantenam08
02-12-2006, 10:11 AM
I get accused of being on crack and I'm the one who is wrong? You resort to saying I have my period and I'm wrong? Whatever people. This is a hate spewing thread and I'm done with it.

And that is exactly why I don't post to threads about the Williams sisters any more, if I even open them that is. Let people take their aggression outs on the Williams in cyber space, that's all they can do. :rolleyes:

And I'm sure someone will state they dislike the Williams sister because of their negative attitude, the same attitude displayed by players who happen to be in the ATP. Oops, guess this statement makes me a feminist. Oh well. :roll:

alexmath2
02-12-2006, 10:11 AM
Well you are right Youngstown state is not a powerhouse in D1 or even probably a top 50 school in D1. The number #1 singles player was almost certainly not even ranked in the top 100 for college singles and probably closer to the 200 range. I wonder how she would have done against any college player ranked in the top 10. If Martina really thought that men and the women were equal why didn't she seek out the #1 female player on the womens team?


I don't know how martina felt about men and women being equal. YSU was fairly successful then and the player , whose last name I forget, went on to play satelittes. He wasactually quite successful in college and was a level or two above his teammates. My post wan't meant to convey anything about the equality of men's and women's tennis at the top levels. Just an observation that I think the top women would be "somewhat competitive" with lower ranked men.

Andres
02-12-2006, 10:14 AM
Venus would beat me, that's for sure ;)

ShooterMcMarco
02-12-2006, 10:22 AM
I am sure he was not even trying. He was probably trying to ensure his contact with her after the match though.

:mrgreen:

Yeah, if Federer can bagel top 10 players, a 3 set match between him and Venus would be over in 30 minutes.

fishuuuuu
02-12-2006, 10:25 AM
:mrgreen:

Yeah, if Federer can bagel top 10 players, a 3 set match between him and Venus would be over 30 minutes.

All hostilities aside, this is just the plain and simple truth.

Tennis_Nickmo
02-12-2006, 11:32 AM
30minutes?!!?!?
Maybe 10?

devila
02-12-2006, 12:26 PM
Federer can bagel top 10 players when they can't move due to injury.
venus can't serve her way out of a match against great female players.

croatian sensation
02-12-2006, 12:44 PM
Venus could probably beat someone on the ATP tour. The original quote was that she said that she could beat "ANY SINGLE ONE OF THEM" which implies guys like Agassi, Roddick, and Federer. That I don't see.



Hm...could she take a few games of a junior player...i.e the one that's just started to play at the ATP level?? Like Cilic, who's only 17 and his testosterone is still kicking in :-) (ok, maybe the #1 junior isn't the best choice...but without the serve?!)

I believe she was joking...it's different when you read something and hear somebody say it. Even she couldn't be so crazy to assume that.

pero
02-12-2006, 01:00 PM
I believe she was joking...it's different when you read something and hear somebody say it. Even she couldn't be so crazy to assume that.

agree

andfor
02-12-2006, 02:11 PM
Hm...could she take a few games of a junior player...i.e the one that's just started to play at the ATP level?? Like Cilic, who's only 17 and his testosterone is still kicking in :-) (ok, maybe the #1 junior isn't the best choice...but without the serve?!)

I believe she was joking...it's different when you read something and hear somebody say it. Even she couldn't be so crazy to assume that.

I would have to agree. Unfortunately some folks here who take themselves a little to seriously also take everything in print literally and as fact. Then when debated defend themselves with the "ya'll are haters" line. It's an old internet debate tactic for those who can't back up their arguments with fact.

sureshs
02-12-2006, 03:33 PM
don't shoot me, but is golf really a good comparison to tennis? i think golf takes less muscles and more tactics, where as tennis takes more muscles, insticts, and strategy. and no i'm not putting down golf nor tennis, just an observation.

When Annika has played with men, the fairway was made smaller for her - she started from a different point. The strength in golf comes from the requirements for the drive. I don't play golf, but I know that the upper body rotation and musculature is the reason that women have not been able to compete with men. But they are catching up and Michelle Wie is considered to be the potential woman to break thru.

DaveGrable
02-12-2006, 03:57 PM
Let's not turn this into a golf disussion. Let's stick to the topic and the facts.... those being Venus Williams would lose to ANY male pro.

Sometimes the turth hurts, huh Vlokhard? He can't handle the truth.

Bones08
02-12-2006, 05:46 PM
Jokin or Not, she could win some games. I don't know how many, but atleast 3 games. Some of the ATP pro's are not that great.

Bones08
02-12-2006, 05:46 PM
Jokin or Not, she could win some games. I don't know how many, but atleast 3 games. Some of the ATP pro's are not that great.

Tennis_Monk
02-12-2006, 08:01 PM
Venus can beat Federer in no time. For that matter Hewitt and Agassi as well.

....wait a minute. we are talking tennis here right....sorry all bets are off.

Phil
02-12-2006, 09:22 PM
Um, I never called anyone a chauvanist, so don't put words in my mouth. Nor did I say I was a feminist, don't put words in my mouth.

Venus can beat some male players, deal with it. Yall are the ones having such a big problem with Venus speculating on whether or not she could beat a man.

Several years ago when McEnroe was making such a big deal out of trying to challenge Venus and Serena, Venus said if she played an ATP player, she'd probably lose 2 and 2. Let's not harp on one out of context quote.

So you flame off. No, lose the "lame" and and add "uck"

I'm not sure why ANYONE who knows ANYTHING about tennis and has played the game, even bothers to justify these comments with a response.

thelazerbeam
02-12-2006, 09:44 PM
...so shes saying she can beat federer.....if federer had his left ball blown off, he would still own her

Lee
02-12-2006, 10:27 PM
...so shes saying she can beat federer.....if federer had his left ball blown off, he would still own her


....or right hand. I am pretty sure Federer will beat Venus using his lefthand with a tiny wooden racket.

mellofelow
02-12-2006, 10:55 PM
no wait... Venus can beat a male pro IF.... he pulls a Justine Henin.

LOL :mrgreen:

bluegrasser
02-13-2006, 03:16 AM
Venus couldn't beat a good Div II college player, and take away the serve, and she'd still get trounced by a low level tour player.

random1
02-13-2006, 09:30 AM
When Annika has played with men, the fairway was made smaller for her - she started from a different point. The strength in golf comes from the requirements for the drive. I don't play golf, but I know that the upper body rotation and musculature is the reason that women have not been able to compete with men. But they are catching up and Michelle Wie is considered to be the potential woman to break thru.
That's not true. When she played the Colonial, she played the same course, as everyone has to in a PGA event. She played pretty well, just missed the cut.

Sorenstam outdrives some of the men, though the top men drive some 30yds longer. The biggest difference is that with irons, the men hit with more spin, and therefore, more control. I think there is a real possibility of women competing on the PGA tour, but there is no possibility of women competing on the ATP tour.

DanN
02-13-2006, 10:37 AM
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=26010

pretty much sums it up...

thelazerbeam
02-13-2006, 11:19 AM
good find danN...NOW, if the sisters cant beat a male tennis player whos rank is 200~....how far would they go against federer -_-

Chadwixx
02-13-2006, 11:26 AM
Many of the top women's hitting partners beat them very easily when they play. Its a different game, the only way to explain it is to get out there and see for yourself.

Ive had two buddys who were hitting partners with top women. One was narvatilova's when she was her prime, he was only allowed 1 serve and couldnt hit winners on her. The closest she got was like 6-3, and they played alot.

Another friend of mine was sanchez vicario's hitting partner. He would beat her regularly 6-1.

The top women against the top state nation juniors maybe. But vs a good college player or atp pro its not even an arguement.

The womens ball is different, its not heavy and usually bounces around waist lvl. Clisters hits alittle bit like a man but isnt there yet.

Lets face the facts, what does venus have that can hurt a good male player?

Andres
02-13-2006, 11:27 AM
good find danN...NOW, if the sisters cant beat a male tennis player whos rank is 200~....how far would they go against federer -_-

They not even took a set out of a #200. Just 1 and 2 games.
Against Federer, he would ace them every serve, and winners out of his return of serve. Double bagel in around 20, or 25 mins.

DMich
02-13-2006, 12:07 PM
I dont really think she believes she can beat any male pro. She was probably joking but really was emphasizing the differences in serving on the tours.

Ronaldo
02-13-2006, 12:12 PM
Many of the top women's hitting partners beat them very easily when they play. Its a different game, the only way to explain it is to get out there and see for yourself.

Ive had two buddys who were hitting partners with top women. One was narvatilova's when she was her prime, he was only allowed 1 serve and couldnt hit winners on her. The closest she got was like 6-3, and they played alot.

Another friend of mine was sanchez vicario's hitting partner. He would beat her regularly 6-1.

The top women against the top state nation juniors maybe. But vs a good college player or atp pro its not even an arguement.

The womens ball is different, its not heavy and usually bounces around waist lvl. Clisters hits alittle bit like a man but isnt there yet.

Lets face the facts, what does venus have that can hurt a good male player?
Her grill?????????????????

Kaptain Karl
02-13-2006, 12:43 PM
The following is my POV -- having played NAIA III and transferring to an NCAA III college. (Our NCAA III team beat most of the Div II teams we played. We had a really good Tennis Team.)

Here’s my take on the ranking of abilities of players:
... Any Top 1000 ATP player
... Satellite Males
... Futures Males
... NCAA Div I Males
... Top NCAA Div II Males and NAIA I Males
... Middle NCAA II Males and Top NAIA II Males
... Bottom NCAA II Males, Mid NAIA II Males
... Bottom NAIA II Males - to - “True” 5.5 Males
* * * Somewhere in this orange/red range -- the Top 5 WTA players on a good day. (Probably closer to the bottom of the RED than the Orange. * * *
... Most 5.0 Males
... WTA #6 - #50
... Most 4.5 Males
... WTA #51 - #200
(By now you get the idea....)

Be nice to me, ladies. (Please!)

- KK

arosen
02-13-2006, 01:08 PM
I like it when Serena or Venus trashtalk, it adds spice to the bland experience of women's tennis players interviews. It would be awesome if Serena came out saying she can top any male player. It would sound so appealing.

West Coast Ace
02-13-2006, 02:23 PM
It would be awesome if Serena came out saying she can top any male player.Top them in weight? :-)

Shabazza
02-13-2006, 02:36 PM
Top them in weight? :-)
She's working on it and she's damn serious!! She might even catch Safin! :p

goober
02-13-2006, 03:29 PM
The following is my POV -- having played NAIA III and transferring to an NCAA III college. (Our NCAA III team beat most of the Div II teams we played. We had a really good Tennis Team.)

Here’s my take on the ranking of abilities of players:
... Any Top 1000 ATP player
... Satellite Males
... Futures Males
... NCAA Div I Males
... Top NCAA Div II Males and NAIA I Males
... Middle NCAA II Males and Top NAIA II Males
... Bottom NCAA II Males, Mid NAIA II Males
... Bottom NAIA II Males - to - “True” 5.5 Males
* * * Somewhere in this orange/red range -- the Top 5 WTA players on a good day. (Probably closer to the bottom of the RED than the Orange. * * *
... Most 5.0 Males
... WTA #6 - #50
... Most 4.5 Males
... WTA #51 - #200
(By now you get the idea....)

Be nice to me, ladies. (Please!)

- KK


I think that is too harsh on the WTA players. I would say that most 4.5 males could not beat a WTA player ranked #51-200. WTA players in this range definitely = 5.0-5.5 males.

Midlife crisis
02-13-2006, 03:42 PM
The following is my POV -- having played NAIA III and transferring to an NCAA III college. (Our NCAA III team beat most of the Div II teams we played. We had a really good Tennis Team.)

Here’s my take on the ranking of abilities of players:
... Any Top 1000 ATP player
... Satellite Males
... Futures Males
... NCAA Div I Males
... Top NCAA Div II Males and NAIA I Males
... Middle NCAA II Males and Top NAIA II Males
... Bottom NCAA II Males, Mid NAIA II Males
... Bottom NAIA II Males - to - “True” 5.5 Males
* * * Somewhere in this orange/red range -- the Top 5 WTA players on a good day. (Probably closer to the bottom of the RED than the Orange. * * *
... Most 5.0 Males
... WTA #6 - #50
... Most 4.5 Males
... WTA #51 - #200
(By now you get the idea....)

Be nice to me, ladies. (Please!)

- KK

Really? I've beaten some solid 5.0 males and I don't think I could win a game off a WTA #50 player even playing out of my mind. Jelena Kostanic is #50 right now and I'm sure she'd double-bagel me. #51 is Samantha Stosur and I'm sure she'd be whacking forehand winners all over the place on me too.

I've played some very good women's players now and again and never find myself unable to overpower them, but in doing so I'm making two or three errors to every really good shot I make. If I cut the pace down, they're way more consistent than I am. Strategically, they just stand there and bash away without any real strategy, but as a 4.5 to 5.0 player, I don't have the variety and consistency of weapons to dominate, and clearly don't have the consistency to rally. I'm just not sure how I would even try to go about beating a top professional women, much less the better open women I've played.

If you were kidding, well, nevermind. . .

Kaptain Karl
02-13-2006, 03:48 PM
I think that is too harsh on the WTA players.That's okay. You (and a handful of other TW-ers whose opinions I respect) disagree with me. I'm 'sticking to my guns," though.

I would say that most 4.5 males could not beat a WTA player ranked #51-200.Whereas I have "no question" the 4.5 male would take these one-dimensional girls...

WTA players in this range definitely = 5.0-5.5 males.Nah! Not even close. You're buying into the MYTH of "the depth of the WTA."

- KK

Chadwixx
02-13-2006, 04:03 PM
Sorry Karl, but you would have to be a 5.5 male (or very good 5.0 by old ntrp rating system) to compete with the pro women.

A 4.5 doesnt have the weapons to compete with a pro women. Depends on the 4.5 though. Some hit a very strange ball that could give players trouble.

The guys i mentioned were damn good players, the first was a top national junior from the 12's-18's. Then got to like 190 in the world. The second didnt do as well but still played the satallites. A 6.0-6.5.

Midlife, give them the spin when you want the point. If your banging toe to toe they are tough, but mix it up with short/deep and spin and they struggle.

edberg505
02-13-2006, 04:09 PM
I think that is too harsh on the WTA players. I would say that most 4.5 males could not beat a WTA player ranked #51-200. WTA players in this range definitely = 5.0-5.5 males.


I'd have to agree with that.

Kaptain Karl
02-13-2006, 04:21 PM
Really? I've beaten some solid 5.0 males and I don't think I could win a game off a WTA #50 player even playing out of my mind. ... <cut/paste> ... as a 4.5 to 5.0 player, I don't have the variety and consistency of weapons to dominate, and clearly don't have the consistency to rally. I'm just not sure how I would even try to go about beating a top professional women, much less the better open women I've played.Then I would submit one of two conclusions:
a) Those guys were not really 5.0.
b) You are not really "a 4.5 to 5.0 player."

From the NTRP:
4.5 -- You have developed your use of power and spin and can handle pace. You have sound footwork, can control depth of shots, and attempt to vary game plan according to your opponents. You can hit first serves with power and accuracy and place the second serve. You tend to over hit on difficult shots. Aggressive net play is common in doubles.

I still contend the one-dimensional game of the majority of the WTA players cannot handle the variety of spin and stroke a solid 4.5 male can deliver. (If the 4.5 is "brain dead" and tries to out-hit her, the WTA player probably will win.)

Jelena Kostanic is #50 right now and I'm sure she'd double-bagel me. #51 is Samantha Stosur and I'm sure she'd be whacking forehand winners all over the place on me too.See above.

I've played some very good women's players now and again and never find myself unable to overpower them, but in doing so I'm making two or three errors to every really good shot I make.Umm. You're proving my point. Variety is what wins against these -- very mechanical -- WTA players. (One of the reasons Hingis is moving back up the ranks so quickly is ... she knows how to mix up pace, spin and placement. Soon she'll be match tough enough to break the Top 10. This is because she IS NOT like most of the girls; she doesn't bother trying to overpower them. She just beats them with smart tennis.)

- KK

Chadwixx
02-13-2006, 04:36 PM
I dont think the 4.5 player would have the weapons to win points or force errors. These girls dont miss casual rally shots like club players do.

The women also have very good serves (compared to the best 4.5), the 4.5 would begin the point in the hole.

The return of serve is also a huge issue here. They will pound that 90mph serve u throw at them. Dementiavia would never lose a point vs a 4.5 if the 4.5 is serving.

I dont see how a 4.5 could win if they cant begin the point in an offensive position.

35ft6
02-13-2006, 04:36 PM
I know a buy who wins 5.5 tournaments in So Cal. During a stretch, he won or got to the finals of every 5.5 tournament, so he's legit. He wouldn't do very well against WTA top 50 IMO. I've beaten this guy 2 and 2, so I'm thinking I must be a legit 5.5 player, and I admit the top women would smoke my ***.

Another guy, a dude with a monster serve, is about the same level. He's a bitter rival of guy mentioned above. Anyway, he beat UCLA's number 1 girls player 8-6 (they didn't play a tie-breaker), then the next time he beat her 6-2, and I would think that indicates he wouldn't stand much of a chance against the WTA top 20. (he was once asked to practice with Conchita Martinez).

I think the WTA is probably between 5.5 and 6.0 guys.

Midlife crisis
02-13-2006, 04:37 PM
Midlife, give them the spin when you want the point. If your banging toe to toe they are tough, but mix it up with short/deep and spin and they struggle.

I've been thinking more about these few matches I've had, and yeah, I probably didn't play as intelligently as I could have. I'm by nature a very aggressive, hard hitting all court player, and the balls I got were medium-fast paced with little spin, what seemed like prime slugging practice, so that's how I played. I had success in just plain hitting winners off both wings, but like I said I would make mistakes hitting that hard. I also had some success in hitting a good shot and coming to the net to pick off floating returns, but if I hit a shot, realized it was going to be a good shot, then did a delayed charge of the net, it would have to be a floating return or I got into trouble hitting a low midcourt volley that would undoubtedly be coming back. I didn't do well then because giving them a target to hit past helped their games more than me not being up there, so my winning percentage if I had to hit two volleys was probably not 50%.

I can't actually think of a time now that I tried to hit looping topspin shots at them. Some of it probably was that I felt I had to give them a good game, which I did by playing the way I did. I guess I was too caught up in the moment to really think about using a wider variety of strategies. What the heck, it's a learning experience, and I've only been playing again for about ten months. Maybe in the next year or two I'll get enough of these matches under my belt to play smarter.

gzhpcu
02-13-2006, 04:38 PM
Remember this? Karsten Braasch vs Williams sisters (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/909637.stm)

ohplease
02-13-2006, 04:39 PM
"Rabbit, paging rabbit. TW carpet smokers in aisle 12."

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=73984

Progressive10s
02-13-2006, 04:41 PM
Arosen said he missed the trash talking of the Williams sisters. I loved to read the banter between Richard Williams and Martina Hingis when she was still at the top. I really don't think the current Williams' play could hold a candle to NCAA Division I male players. The sistas used to talk the talk and walk the walk, but they are just a shadow of their former selves.

Chadwixx
02-13-2006, 04:44 PM
I've been thinking more about these few matches I've had, and yeah, I probably didn't play as intelligently as I could have. I'm by nature a very aggressive, hard hitting all court player, and the balls I got were medium-fast paced with little spin, what seemed like prime slugging practice, so that's how I played. I had success in just plain hitting winners off both wings, but like I said I would make mistakes hitting that hard. I also had some success in hitting a good shot and coming to the net to pick off floating returns, but if I hit a shot, realized it was going to be a good shot, then did a delayed charge of the net, it would have to be a floating return or I got into trouble hitting a low midcourt volley that would undoubtedly be coming back. I didn't do well then because giving them a target to hit past helped their games more than me not being up there, so my winning percentage if I had to hit two volleys was probably not 50%.

I can't actually think of a time now that I tried to hit looping topspin shots at them. Some of it probably was that I felt I had to give them a good game, which I did by playing the way I did. I guess I was too caught up in the moment to really think about using a wider variety of strategies. What the heck, it's a learning experience, and I've only been playing again for about ten months. Maybe in the next year or two I'll get enough of these matches under my belt to play smarter.

Ya if you junk it up too much they wont play with you. In practice i would probably play the same way just to keep them happy. After all they are the star not you :)

Use the rise-peak-decline rule and give them all shots on the decline, if they try to pound through them, the fence will be in for a beating :)

The short slice in the mid court drives them nuts too. Even if they get it they are stuck at the net and their net movenment isnt great, so the pass/lob is a breeze.

Midlife crisis
02-13-2006, 04:46 PM
Then I would submit one of two conclusions:
a) Those guys were not really 5.0.
b) You are not really "a 4.5 to 5.0 player."

From the NTRP:
4.5 -- You have developed your use of power and spin and can handle pace. You have sound footwork, can control depth of shots, and attempt to vary game plan according to your opponents. You can hit first serves with power and accuracy and place the second serve. You tend to over hit on difficult shots. Aggressive net play is common in doubles.

I still contend the one-dimensional game of the majority of the WTA players cannot handle the variety of spin and stroke a solid 4.5 male can deliver. (If the 4.5 is "brain dead" and tries to out-hit her, the WTA player probably will win.)

See above.

Umm. You're proving my point. Variety is what wins against these -- very mechanical -- WTA players. (One of the reasons Hingis is moving back up the ranks so quickly is ... she knows how to mix up pace, spin and placement. Soon she'll be match tough enough to break the Top 10. This is because she IS NOT like most of the girls; she doesn't bother trying to overpower them. She just beats them with smart tennis.)

- KK

Well, see my reply above to Chadwixx. I played a year of college tennis at a division one school twenty years ago, and now probably play as well as I did back then if not better. At least one of the 5.0 players I beat has won one of the larger 5.0 tournaments in this area, but I've only been playing tennis again for about ten months and my level of play still depends a lot on who I play.

It just didn't occur to me to try and coerce short balls by changing up spins and speeds. I have a background in table tennis too, where it's almost all about spin. It is definitely food for thought. I guess I was probably just too hung up on hitting clean winners (which feels DARNED GOOD, I'll tell you), rather than using the strategy that would give me the best chance to win. For that, I owe you and Chadwixx a big thanks - I have a match tonight and I'll see how it goes.

Midlife crisis
02-13-2006, 04:49 PM
Ya if you junk it up too much they wont play with you. In practice i would probably play the same way just to keep them happy. After all they are the star not you :)

This is the absolute truest statement ever said. I think I've succumbed to feeling that pressure too.

Now the question is: Will I have the guts to play like I should the next time I get that chance?

arosen
02-13-2006, 04:58 PM
Top them in weight? :-)

More like, be on top of them?

West Coast Ace
02-13-2006, 05:44 PM
More like, be on top of them?I hope I don't have nightmares...

West Coast Ace
02-13-2006, 05:53 PM
I don't think 4.5 or 5.0's could beat the Top 50 women who are big and hit hard. But against the Ruana Pascals and Morigami's (watched them play at Carson last July), I think as a 4.5, I could definitely play with them - and beat them if I played very clean - and 5.5 guys would maul them. I know I could easily return their 1st serves and hit winners off their floating, spinning 2nd serves.

And I agree with those who think the top Div 1 male players would easily handle Venus.

Steve Dykstra
02-13-2006, 08:16 PM
Some of the ATP pro's are not that great.

Huh, that is interesting...

My thoughts on this issue are that if there was one ranking system for men and women, the top women would be around the 1000 range.

Bones08
02-13-2006, 09:16 PM
tHAT WAS VENUS AND SERENA AT 17, 16 YEARS OLD. TAKE THEM AT THEIR BEST, THEY COULD STEAL A COUPLE OF GAMES.

Rabbit
02-14-2006, 05:45 AM
It's my experience that a 4.5 isn't going to beat anyone who does this for a living regardless of gender. Win games? Maybe from a tier 2 player, but a club player is dellusional if they think they can compete with a world class athlete. No offense meant as I too am a club player.

bc-05
02-14-2006, 08:00 AM
well i wouldnt know about this.. but i am a div 1 player and play single number 1 for my club.. and u may have read my post b4 that i got beaten by a girl who played in the state team.. i dunno wat my ntrp is.. but if anyone can tell me wat ntrp rating a div 1 player is classified into it'll be great.. hmm and i also wanna know if martina hingis had lindsays power and strength wat ntrp rating (men) would she be?

mctennis
02-14-2006, 01:56 PM
I'm tired of this dead issue. She CANNOT beat the ATP players even without the serve. I'll take a money bet from her about this. She is so full of BS about this issue I have to laugh when they ( both Williams sisters) mention this. They can't even beat their own female players. Nuff said.

Kaptain Karl
02-14-2006, 03:33 PM
It's my experience that a 4.5 isn't going to beat anyone who does this for a living regardless of gender. Win games? Maybe from a tier 2 player, but a club player is dellusional if they think they can compete with a world class athlete.With all due respect to your (ought to be famous) thread recounting your session with that girl, I still disagree.

(The most impressive part of that story of your -- to me -- was the Coach who skipped rope the entire time of your practice match. Whoa!!!)

No offense meant as I too am a club player.TILT!!! I object to anyone who terms you a "club player." My "soft" definition is that the label "Club Player" pretty much tops-out at the 4.0 level. If you are above a 4.0, you are a player.

(Don't insult my friend, Rabbit's, game again. Thanks.)

- KK

Phil
02-14-2006, 04:33 PM
With all due respect to your (ought to be famous) thread recounting your session with that girl, I still disagree.- KK

Rabbit has played a female pro, and his post on that experience, to me, is the definitive reference on this Board. Nothing comes close. And, it should close the book on this "issue".

Karl, have YOU ever played a woman pro or a high-ranking Div. I player? If your answer is "No", then it's end of discussion, and you should just give it a rest before making more of a fool of yourself and allowing your ignorant bias to come through. Experience trumps bias. Everytime.

DashaandSafin
02-14-2006, 06:45 PM
;) Careful Phil. He could edit your posts!

antonapoulos
02-14-2006, 07:24 PM
Fed beat Gaudio 6-0, 6-0 at Shanghai. I am certain that Gaudio could do likewise to Venus or Serena even without serves. For Venus to even propose that she could compete with top male players playing seriously (unlike Braach at the expo) is absolutely proposterous. Imagine an overweight Williams sister playing a spanish journeyman on clay. Without serves, he would run her to death.

Rabbit
02-15-2006, 03:45 AM
With all due respect to your (ought to be famous) thread recounting your session with that girl, I still disagree.

(The most impressive part of that story of your -- to me -- was the Coach who skipped rope the entire time of your practice match. Whoa!!!)

TILT!!! I object to anyone who terms you a "club player." My "soft" definition is that the label "Club Player" pretty much tops-out at the 4.0 level. If you are above a 4.0, you are a player.

(Don't insult my friend, Rabbit's, game again. Thanks.)

- KK

While I'm sure Rabbit appreciates your defending his game, the truth still hurts....ouch!

In all seriousness, had we actually played, my serve probably would have helped a bunch. But, her movement, and ball striking were far and away better than most of the 4.5s and 5.0s I know around here. There has been much talk about junking her and keeping the ball low and away. And, logically, that would seem to work. Trust me, I keep second guessing my post and saying "Ahhh...you coulda taken her". However, when Uncle Reality rears his ugly, but truthful head, the fact is that she would have worn my old *** out.

I would like to correct one thing. The coach did not skip rope, it was the number 500 player in the world who was on court next to me. She was to him what I was to her in terms of hitting.

Also, KK, I will have to take you up on one other issue. I'm a solid 4.5, and if I tried, could for sure play 5.0 doubles. I have to say that a player is someone who actually does this for a living. I've been on court with enough players to know the difference. ANYONE who has an NTRP rating is a club player. Here is a note of disclosure, before anyone jumps ugly and says that a world class pro has a 7.0 rating, read the fine print. The NTRP scale clearly says that their ratings do not apply to world class pros or satellite players, or Div 1 college players. These people do not need a rating. The rating system is used only to group players by ability and these people are grouped by the fact that they can beat everyone else.


Careful Phil. He could edit your posts!

LMAO...that was a good one, close to a Dedans.

Without serves, he would run her to death.

I disagree. Serena would have to run before he could run her to death.

TheNatural
02-15-2006, 04:23 AM
anyone in the top 2000 wuold beat venus with her pathetic forehand. The only time it goes in is when she has half an hour to prepare and when she stands 3 metres behind the baseline for more margin into the court, otherwise she misses every second forehand - her technique sux.

bc-05
02-15-2006, 06:00 AM
my goodfriend rabbit.. so do u think u can answer my question? i've never really hit with a pro.. but i've hit with a state female player.. and she whooped my *** and i play division 1 tennis number 1 single for my club.. i dunno wat it is in ntrp, coz in aus we dont rate using ntrps.. but she sure is pretty safe and hits the ball damn hard..

but someone like martina hingis.. do u think she can beat a just say a division 1 college player? or maybe a satellite player? if she can serve and hit the ball like lindsay just say.. but the smartness and touch and volley of martina?

Rabbit
02-15-2006, 06:20 AM
You say you play division 1 number 1....I think everyone here is referring to U.S. college division 1 school as defined by the NCAA. A Div 1 (D1) player is usually a satellite level player, 6.0 or 6.5. Some, not all, go on to professional careers.

Your question about Hingis beating a D1 college player. She could certainly beat any female D1 college player. However, I don't think she could beat a good D1 male player. The gray area comes in the use of "good". I think Hingis would probably lose to any D1 male player ranked in the top 100 in the U.S. But, this is speculation on my part. Further, I think that the top half of D1 college players in the U.S. are probably satellite level; maybe more than that.

Back when her namesake, Martina Navratilova issued the same challenge saying she thought she could beat the #100 male player in the world if she chose surface, it proved to be a fairly devisive issue. Her good friend, Chris Evert said that a good male college player could beat any of the top women. Now, what is a good college player to Chris Evert? At the time, I think John McEnroe was a good college player at Stanford. You see the problem with quanitfying this. The only way you'll be sure is if you get a range of college players on court with the top professional women. Vitas Gerulaits was so sure of the result that he best his, at the time, million dollar home against Navratilova's boast. She didn't follow through.

I don't know if the above is an answer or not. My opinion has not changed since my encounter with her. I will offer this though. I will speak to the pro that I take from who coaches her. Next time she's in town, I'll see if I can play her a couple of sets. I will post the results of the match and we'll see how well I fare.

bc-05
02-16-2006, 11:36 AM
ahh i get it.. now i know what u mean.. college div 1 in america is basically like what we call 'pennant' here.. division 1 is just 1 division below that.. so maybe i fall into the category of 5.5.. not really sure.. but then again u said most of the top half of the college div 1 players are sattelite players or even more.. therefore wat ur saying is most of them are nearly as good as the pros? now i get y ur saying top women can't beat div 1 college players.. i thought by div 1 u mean like just club player's div 1 which is okay.. but no where near as good as the pennant (or sattelite).. i've filled in in the pennant sections for a couple of games last season.. i got my *** whooped 6-4 6-3 was probably my best result in there..

but then again i got beaten by a state player (a female)... i mean i dunno if i really played my best.. but it was kinda a handicap match.. i wasn't allowed to serve my bullets (1st serve) and she gets the double tram line to hit to.. i still lost.. i mean i would just serve a dinker and she'd smash the crap out of the ball..

goober
02-16-2006, 12:01 PM
ahh i get it.. now i know what u mean.. college div 1 in america is basically like what we call 'pennant' here.. division 1 is just 1 division below that.. so maybe i fall into the category of 5.5.. not really sure.. but then again u said most of the top half of the college div 1 players are sattelite players or even more.. therefore wat ur saying is most of them are nearly as good as the pros? now i get y ur saying top women can't beat div 1 college players.. i thought by div 1 u mean like just club player's div 1 which is okay.. but no where near as good as the pennant (or sattelite).. i've filled in in the pennant sections for a couple of games last season.. i got my *** whooped 6-4 6-3 was probably my best result in there..

but then again i got beaten by a state player (a female)... i mean i dunno if i really played my best.. but it was kinda a handicap match.. i wasn't allowed to serve my bullets (1st serve) and she gets the double tram line to hit to.. i still lost.. i mean i would just serve a dinker and she'd smash the crap out of the ball..


I wouldn't say that the top half of D1 are satellite level players which are 6.5 level players essentially. Probably only those ranked in the top 50 are going to go on to pros and probably only those in the top 10 have a shot of actually getting to the top 100 on the ATP tour and for most of them it is a long shot.

bc-05
02-16-2006, 12:09 PM
so wat would u rate someone like martina hingis (say she can have lindsays power, or even better karolina sprems) in the men's ntrp rating?? i've watched live tennis in real life.. but i've only ever hit with roger rasheed and paul baccanello.. and they're good but not special.. and from wat i've seen lindsay davenport could probably beat either of them.. but then again i wouldn't know since we've never tested them together.. but wat do u think goober?

Mattle
02-16-2006, 12:15 PM
Federer vs. V. Williams : 6-0 6-0

goober
02-16-2006, 12:22 PM
so wat would u rate someone like martina hingis (say she can have lindsays power, or even better karolina sprems) in the men's ntrp rating?? i've watched live tennis in real life.. but i've only ever hit with roger rasheed and paul baccanello.. and they're good but not special.. and from wat i've seen lindsay davenport could probably beat either of them.. but then again i wouldn't know since we've never tested them together.. but wat do u think goober?

Hingis got blown out recently by Demientieva and there are tons of ATP players who hit harder and have much bigger serves than her. I would be surprised if any top 10 WTA player could beat a top 10 D1 college player. I guess she would probably still be a 6.0 though on mens rating NTRP.

bc-05
02-16-2006, 01:22 PM
yah i get it thats why i said IF she had power like a davenport or a sprem.. but i guess henin is better than hingis yeah? wat about henin? u think she could beat a d1 player?

slice bh compliment
02-16-2006, 01:27 PM
Federer vs. V. Williams : 6-0 6-0

Wow, so Venus is just as good as Gaston Gaudio on a bad day in China?
[no need to respond....only kidding]

That of course reminds me of the Dennis Miller line about Walter Mondale in the 80s, "2 electoral votes? I didn't even run and I almost got as many as Mondale."

SO if RF beats GG O and O...RF beats Venus 6-negative 3, 6-negative 3?

Andy Zarzuela
02-16-2006, 07:40 PM
There was a time when Venus had the first serve and first serve precentage good enough to be on the mens' tour. Venus used to hit in the 120s consistantly. I've seen Venus hit a serve that clocked at 135 mph, but it was called out. It looked as if it was in, but apparently it was out. This was at the 03 Aussie Open. But her serve isn't what it used to be....although she may be able to get it back if she puts her heart into it. Venus' 2nd serve is what gets her in trouble. It's not a bad serve, she just gets tentative on that shot... But you have to admit, Venus is damn good when she's on. I think when she's on, she's better than anyone in the WTA. Monica Seles said that Venus was the only person she played that could hit harder than her. She said that Venus would probably go on to be a tennis legend.

Bones08
02-16-2006, 08:12 PM
Someone has some since!!!!!

35ft6
02-17-2006, 04:55 AM
Hingis got blown out recently by Demientieva and there are tons of ATP players who hit harder and have much bigger serves than her. I would be surprised if any top 10 WTA player could beat a top 10 D1 college player. I guess she would probably still be a 6.0 though on mens rating NTRP. I'd be surprised if they could beat the number 6 guy at Baylor.

Turning Pro
02-17-2006, 06:09 AM
I like the way she says this,when she is ISNT even NEAR the top in the womens game,to be saying this.Even if she was at the top,thats a ridiculous statement.She must be INSECURE.

Turning Pro
02-17-2006, 06:16 AM
Ok,seriously though,venus could beat ANY male pro,by pulling off her mask and intimidating her opponent with her real face.

Raj
02-17-2006, 09:08 AM
I think some are making this quote out to be more than what it should be -- I think it's a personality thing of hers to say "Oh, I could beat the guys." I don't think it's her being arrogant or cocky.

Bones08
02-17-2006, 02:53 PM
Keep it going, Now Venus knows that this many people care about her to spend their time writing on this. Go Venus!!!

gts072
02-17-2006, 03:32 PM
There was a time when Venus had the first serve and first serve precentage good enough to be on the mens' tour. Venus used to hit in the 120s consistantly. I've seen Venus hit a serve that clocked at 135 mph, but it was called out. It looked as if it was in, but apparently it was out. This was at the 03 Aussie Open. But her serve isn't what it used to be....although she may be able to get it back if she puts her heart into it. Venus' 2nd serve is what gets her in trouble. It's not a bad serve, she just gets tentative on that shot... But you have to admit, Venus is damn good when she's on. I think when she's on, she's better than anyone in the WTA. Monica Seles said that Venus was the only person she played that could hit harder than her. She said that Venus would probably go on to be a tennis legend.

Great. Another diehard Williams’ fan who thinks they can compete with men. I was wondering when your biased opinion would chime in. Get a dose of reality, man. The William sisters are done, nada, out of it. They can't compete anymore on the WTA level let alone beating a ATP ranked player. The men’s and women’s games are at two different levels and it’s not changing anytime soon.

The Dav
02-18-2006, 06:27 AM
Yevgeny Kafelnikov practiced with the sisters a few years ago, and he said they hit as hard as some of the men, I think he knows what it takes more than us, him being a former PRO ;)

I reckon Venus would whip Coria if they played a set, 6-3...

Against Federer, that's a tough one, I reckon if Venus plays her very best, she'd win 7-6 :D

courtrage
02-18-2006, 06:44 AM
Yevgeny Kafelnikov practiced with the sisters a few years ago, and he said they hit as hard as some of the men, I think he knows what it takes more than us, him being a former PRO ;)


hitting hard doesnt get you anywhere. Look at how agassi played fed in the USO...he was killing everything and fed still won when andre cooled off. Fact is, they hit hard and overpower their opponents, but look at the weak shots they get from their opponents...if they played the men, they wouldnt get the chance to hit the hell out of everything because the men hit harder than any woman they'd play...as for Yevgeny, i dont remember him being a big hitter...he played smart didnt he and could hit big if the chance came? a buddy of mine who was at a level of #1 at a division1 college played one of the female pros(dont know rank but i THINK it was in the top 100) and she beat him the first day in a tight match...he'd never played a girl before and was a little nervous....the next day he came out and beat her 1-1

equinox
02-18-2006, 06:59 AM
Be serious floppy, Venus coudn't even take a set off ray charles on crack.

Venus coudn't even take a set off an international d2 college or futures qualifer player.

Those male practice partners of wta females hit at 1/2-3/4 pace and don't hit very deep, basically giving them easy shots.

I bet a solid 5.0 could atleast push venus, being that 7.0 women are about 2.0 full levels behind males.

The Dav
02-18-2006, 07:27 AM
hitting hard doesnt get you anywhere. Look at how agassi played fed in the USO...he was killing everything and fed still won when andre cooled off. Fact is, they hit hard and overpower their opponents, but look at the weak shots they get from their opponents...if they played the men, they wouldnt get the chance to hit the hell out of everything because the men hit harder than any woman they'd play...as for Yevgeny, i dont remember him being a big hitter...he played smart didnt he and could hit big if the chance came? a buddy of mine who was at a level of #1 at FSU played one of the female pros(dont know rank) and she beat him the first day in a couple of tiebreaks...he'd never played a girl before....the next day he came out and beat her 1-1

Kafelnikov is still a man though, isn't he? And this is about Venus beating a man, which she absolutely could...

As I say, Coria would be no match, especially if he serves her 23 DFs :mrgreen: , as for Fed, Agassi hit hard and lost, this is true, but he won plenty of games, didn't he?

I still say that Venus wins 7-6 :p

Kaptain Karl
02-18-2006, 07:42 AM
... this is about Venus beating a man, which she absolutely could...No. It's about Venus beating an ATP player; not just "a man." And your dreaming.

- KK

The Dav
02-18-2006, 08:35 AM
No. It's about Venus beating an ATP player; not just "a man." And your dreaming.

- KK

But wasn't Yevgeny an ATP player? And not just any old ATP player, a two-time Slam champion, and he said Venus hit as hard as most of the men...

Stop being so damn sexist :rolleyes:

Kaptain Karl
02-18-2006, 09:00 AM
But wasn't Yevgeny an ATP player? And not just any old ATP player, a two-time Slam champion, and he said Venus hit as hard as most of the men...

Stop being so damn sexist.1 - Now you've changed your claim. Up there ^^^ you quoted him as saying Venus hit as hard as "some" of the men. Which is it?

2 - This isn't about hitting hard. It's about winning against an ATP player. HUGE difference. And you're still dreaming.

3 - I'm being practical. YOU are being sexist, to think Venus could beat any ATP player. (But you keep telling yourself this kind of thing if you want....)

- KK

The Dav
02-18-2006, 09:12 AM
1 - Now you've changed your claim. Up there ^^^ you quoted him as saying Venus hit as hard as "some" of the men. Which is it?

2 - This isn't about hitting hard. It's about winning against an ATP player. HUGE difference. And you're still dreaming.

3 - I'm being practical. YOU are being sexist, to think Venus could beat any ATP player. (But you keep telling yourself this kind of thing if you want....)

- KK

1. Some players/most players, it doesn't matter, the bottom line is that he said she could hit as hard as male tennis players...

2. This is about hitting hard, as most of the reasons stated for why she wouldn't win were because 'she would be blown off the court', now going by what two-time Slam champ Yevgeny said, this would not be the case...

3. You are being sexist, according to what Kafelnikov said, they'd have a shot, and I genuinely believe that she could beat Coria 6-3, this is without serve right? How could Venus NOT beat Coria...

Your masculinity is being threatened by Venus' claims, it's understandable, but still sexist :D

arnz
02-18-2006, 09:16 AM
But wasn't Yevgeny an ATP player? And not just any old ATP player, a two-time Slam champion, and he said Venus hit as hard as most of the men...

Stop being so damn sexist :rolleyes:

Can you show me the link to the quote by Kafelnikov About Venus? I cant find it in google

courtrage
02-18-2006, 09:25 AM
did Kafelnikov play a match or points with her or did they must hit around...if i just go out and rally and not care i can hit the hell out of the ball too...

as for a solid 5.0 player beating her..i dont know about that..she is a proffessional athlete and all...the sisters played with a guy ranked in the 400 or 600s (was a former top 60 player though) and he beat them 1-0 or worse...he was better than 5.0 cause he was a pro, but thats still an easy victory...

Kaptain Karl
02-18-2006, 09:32 AM
[KK pats The Dav on the head....]

- KK

RiosTheGenius
02-18-2006, 10:06 AM
you can set up a match between Venus Williams and any random player in the top 200 and she won't even hold her own serve. so, does it matter if the male player isn't serving?... double bagel... no doubt

Bones08
02-18-2006, 10:44 AM
did Kafelnikov play a match or points with her or did they must hit around...if i just go out and rally and not care i can hit the hell out of the ball too...

as for a solid 5.0 player beating her..i dont know about that..she is a proffessional athlete and all...didnt they (the sisters) play a set with a guy ranked outside of the top 100 or 200 and he beat the first one 6-1 and the second one 6-0?...i heard that story somewhere back when they were getting big and winning everything...i mean it was only a set, but still

nO BUDDY, THEY WE'RE 16 AND 17 YEARS OLD. They we're not that good back then.

RafaN RichardG
02-18-2006, 10:49 AM
she was probably just making a joke in the interview....i think some people took it a bit too literally

either way i do think there is a chance that she could beat a guy, if shes serving at the 120+ range, seeing as how coria gets by with an average of like 115?, plus her strokes are harder than his, but this is only a scenario...

Steve Dykstra
02-18-2006, 11:41 AM
Yevgeny Kafelnikov practiced with the sisters a few years ago, and he said they hit as hard as some of the men, I think he knows what it takes more than us, him being a former PRO ;)

So what??? The major differences between men and women players is the serve and quickness around the court. I have played with many girls who hit as well or better than me on groundstrokes and have crushed them in matches.

I played a girl on the varsity team here. She had better groundstrokes, but I beat her 6-0 before she quit. How was I able to beat her? She could not touch my serve and she was pretty damn slow compared to even the slowest guys.

Venus might be able to hit almost as hard as some of the ATP pros, but so what? They would still kill her no problem.

I reckon Venus would whip Coria if they played a set, 6-3...

Against Federer, that's a tough one, I reckon if Venus plays her very best, she'd win 7-6 :D

You obviously have no clue, go back and read about when Venus got her *** beat by a low-ranked ATP player who was not even trying.

The Dav
02-18-2006, 01:40 PM
So what??? The major differences between men and women players is the serve and quickness around the court. I have played with many girls who hit as well or better than me on groundstrokes and have crushed them in matches.

I played a girl on the varsity team here. She had better groundstrokes, but I beat her 6-0 before she quit. How was I able to beat her? She could not touch my serve and she was pretty damn slow compared to even the slowest guys.

Venus might be able to hit almost as hard as some of the ATP pros, but so what? They would still kill her no problem.



You obviously have no clue, go back and read about when Venus got her *** beat by a low-ranked ATP player who was not even trying.

Come into this discussion late have we?

Venus acknowledged that she has no chance with the serve in play, she's talking about beating a guy without him serving, she could absolutely do that...

And thank you Rafa, good point, Venus' best serve is 125 mph, Coria, on a grass court, would be whipped by Venus...

Andres
02-18-2006, 02:18 PM
Come into this discussion late have we?

Venus acknowledged that she has no chance with the serve in play, she's talking about beating a guy without him serving, she could absolutely do that...

And thank you Rafa, good point, Venus' best serve is 125 mph, Coria, on a grass court, would be whipped by Venus...

Coria is one the best out there at return of serve. A 125 mph in grass isn't that big deal.

A Venus just hits one 125 per match... usually 110. That's a piece of cake for Coria...

Bones08
02-18-2006, 05:32 PM
Venus and Serena got beat when they we're 16 and 17. Give me a break, they we're not even good back then. Keep it going, you'll must care a lot about Venus to use your time on her.

Steve Dykstra
02-18-2006, 05:49 PM
Come into this discussion late have we?

Nope, I was the third person to post in this thread, nice try...

Venus acknowledged that she has no chance with the serve in play, she's talking about beating a guy without him serving, she could absolutely do that...

Go read about what happened with that low ranked ATP player, Karstan Brassch or something like that. He was ranked outside the top 200 and smoked both Williams sisters without trying. Venus could not even hold her own serve against this guy, so if you take away his serve she still gets smoked. And this is a guy who would get smoked by any of the players you think Venus can beat.

And thank you Rafa, good point, Venus' best serve is 125 mph, Coria, on a grass court, would be whipped by Venus...

So what, Coria's best serve is in the 130s. I am sure Coria gets more spin on his serve than Venus as well. Coria has a better serve than Venus, yet this is his weakness while it is Venus's strength. Coria would double bagle Venus without breaking a sweat, give it up. Ok, she might win a game or two if she played out of her mind and Coria choked.

Bones08
02-18-2006, 07:07 PM
Nope, I was the third person to post in this thread, nice try...



Go read about what happened with that low ranked ATP player, Karstan Brassch or something like that. He was ranked outside the top 200 and smoked both Williams sisters without trying. Venus could not even hold her own serve against this guy, so if you take away his serve she still gets smoked. And this is a guy who would get smoked by any of the players you think Venus can beat.



So what, Coria's best serve is in the 130s. I am sure Coria gets more spin on his serve than Venus as well. Coria has a better serve than Venus, yet this is his weakness while it is Venus's strength. Coria would double bagle Venus without breaking a sweat, give it up. Ok, she might win a game or two if she played out of her mind and Coria choked.

Once again, that was Venus and Serena at age 16 and 17. They we're not good at all.

Steve Dykstra
02-19-2006, 09:35 PM
Once again, that was Venus and Serena at age 16 and 17. They we're not good at all.

Venus went to the US Open finals just after turning 17.

fishboy
02-20-2006, 06:24 AM
Even if you don't count the coffee table, any D1 player could to a better interior design than Venus.

fb

Brettolius
02-20-2006, 07:18 AM
Even if you don't count the coffee table, any D1 player could to a better interior design than Venus.

fb

LOL, good one dude.

a guy
02-20-2006, 07:37 AM
i could beat her

Bones08
02-20-2006, 06:07 PM
Venus went to the US Open finals just after turning 17.

And look what Hingis did to her? She was not that good at it.