Question to all those spin doctors and biomechanics specialist !

[floran ivanisevic]

Being a good tennis player but with a serve a la Roscoe Tanner or Kevin Curren , at best Greg Rudsedsky...without being a "waiter serve" still a quick motion lacking good bounding spin...
I have been training on my spin serves for the last 10 months and I still only could hit slice or a mild top-slice.I was disouraged, really low...
I read all the threads on Kick serve here, studied all the videos and articles of Tennisplayer.net and other online mags, but nothing would be going on for me...nothing !
Actually I think I was emphasizing to much the wrap a la Bob Brett, or the pronation a la Boris Becker or Stefan Edberg, and above all I was trying to speed up my swing a lot...( raquet head speed ) but too late in the swing ?
I noticed that by sending the message "speed up your swing" to my brain from the point of contact or a little before, that would lead to an overpowered follow thru...and therefore no pronation, spin yes, but only slice ( just a cut from right to left) and to much lenght ( always a bit too long slice serves ).
And last week I changed two things...
and for the first time I had 10 serves on a row with good Top-slice and half as good mild kickers...( not there yet with the top spins )
I emphasized on forgetting my arm and swinging from the core and the hip rotation plus knee bend ( nothing really new it is written everywhere )
that is for my racquet head speed to pick up a bit more...
BUT HERE IS MY POINT AND MY QUESTION
I also emphazized on imaging the swing speed burst much much before the point of contact, and I realized because I must have a slow brain hand coordination relay, that It would be just perfect...
From there my pronation would occur naturally, and the good spin was there for the first time in 1 all year of focus !!!
Is my approach correct ?
Emphazising the raquet head speed just after the lowest point on the raquet head drop would create a natural pronation and natural spin for those amateur slow brainers like me ?
It's like the top of your swing speed is just before contact in your head...
Hope it helps some people and bring some debate...
Someone to help me ?

[raftermania]

Hi Floran, are related to Goran???

First, you need to have a better attitude, if you believe you have a "amateur slow brain" you will likely find a way to prove that to yourself. Be more positive about your self-image.

You seem to be very consciously aware of your service motion. You will not get racquet head speed by telling certain parts of your body to do what. Racquet head speed stems from a loose, more connected motion. Try to execute a single idea instead of many.

Is that what you are concerned about, racquet speed? You need to make your topic more concise and to the point.

Floran, you have a very fast brain.

[gzhpcu]

Do you have a consistent toss? Too many players neglect practicing their toss. The first point is to make sure you have a toss to always the same spot, to avoid having too many different serve motions. Then try to keep loose as cooked spaghetti. If your toss is out in front of your left foot and you hit up with an inside - out swing, you should get a good combination of topspin and sidespin. Pronation occurs naturally if you are loose.

[floran ivanisevic]

Thanks Raftermania and Gzhpcu !!
Sorry for the long monologue...I agree I have to make my point more concise and clear...I just love tennis and when I start, I just can't stop ! :)

I do emphazise on a very loose connected body motion a la Federer, and a spaghetti arm, it is actually the first tip from Bob Brett to Goran Ivanisevic... but it was just not enough for me...
My toss in not as perfect as the Rafter 9'oclock, but a good medium toss, a bit like Kafelnikov at 11 for spin...

MY POINT IS my swing speed peak seemed to really pick up JUST AFTER CONTACT,even if I was telling my brain to bring the peak AT CONTACT.
And therefore I would end up hitting sliced and long... like forcing the follow thru instead of peaking at impact (which I was imaging though)...

And 3 days ago...by trying to release the burst into the ball a bit earlier than I would image to myself, like bursting behind the head like Henri Leconte, I was able to pronate naturally from left to right for the first time, while before I would always end up with my hand from right to left in the end.

By the way I don't think you can really tell your arm to swing purely left to right as of the correct pronation, I believe it is a result, not an intention...
Am I wrong ?
And therefore if it is a result, the cause is the beginning of the motion, the bow release burst just after the racket drop...cf John Yandell in Advanced Tennis, the toss myth....

Only Becker was intending the pronation of the forearm and the wrist,and intending the swing left to right to an eccess because he was hitting his serve with an open stance and an eastern forehand grip even for top spin...

Oh ...I made it too long again...sorry guys...

[floran ivanisevic]

By re-re-reading your 2 answers...would you actually mean that the swing speed is constant and that there is no such thing as speed burst or acceleration during the swing ?

That the racket is accelerated from the body loose motion at the start of the release of the entire body coil, and that from there you don't have to control it ( speed up or down ) ?

In that case my question is about the same, but that would mean that for better optimum speed and natural pronation I was not reaching behind enough on the drop, therefore causing the speed to pick up too late and after contact...causing Dementievas slice and no pronation.
And now I reach down a lot behind, and speeding up from there I pronate at the right moment of contact...gaining kick and top spin at last...
But I don't think I have changed my swing path nor my swing speed or loose body, I just changed the start and start position of the swing burst.

[raftermania]

Hey Floran, very eloquent lol.

I think your contact point is very important in determining your "peak racquet head speed" You should be hitting the ball at full stretch, when all your muslces are blasting. If you are peaking early, you could be hitting the ball too early!

[gzhpcu]

Here is a link: Racket head speed (http://wings.avkids.com/Tennis/Project/serve-02.html)

It shows the racket head speed during the phases in the loop.

As mentioned, maybe you are hitting too early. It could also be that your "virtual target" is too far ahead. You should think of hitting up at the ball. This might help.

[Freedom]

For topspin, you hit up at the ball first, through it second. 'Spin' serves (I hate that term) should be focused on the spin, not the pace. Just focus on hitting the ball up with solid contact. Forget about the service box, or the pace, or where it lands. Just get it over the net a hundred million times, then figure out how to control it.

[Pomeranian]

Watch and listen to the video and try out what this guy says about rolling the ball in your hand with your racquet, gives an idea of how the wrist movement is, practice that before hitting any balls. Then use that motion still without hitting balls and look at where you need to toss the ball in order for your racquet to hit the ball at the right place. If you toss to your right (assuming you're right handed) you can't use that motion. You want to toss so it would land on your head if you didn't catch it or slightly behind you and to your left.
http://www.tomavery.com/video_clips/52859.mov
That was from the sticky.

Don't worry about swinging extremely fast, that makes you lose your racquet head control in this new motion. Work on the idea hitting that ball up, as if you are trying to launch it into the air. Get under that ball and hit up. Signs that you are doing it right is, (for a right hander) the ball curves left and bounces right. A straight topspin bounce is also a good 2nd serve. If the ball goes into the net toss behind you more. If it still goes into the net then choke up on your racquet and work on getting that ball high over the net.

http://tennis.about.com/od/serve/a/servetwistvid_2.htm
Check out the point of contact suggested. (the whole article is very helpful btw) Don't arch your back, for safety reasons and the fact you can bend your knees instead.

And finally don't get discouraged. It is an unusual motion for those used to slice or flat shots. But once you get the motion, contact point, and the toss, the rest is cake. You can then add more spin by using your legs and body and head racquet speed. But for now work on those 3 very important things.

[floran ivanisevic]

Thanks guys !! Sorry for the late answer, it was night time in Asia :)
Actually the tomavery video link by pomeranian is very nice and simple.
I still want to say that I do understand the video statement, I already knew that concept about brushing up with the top edge towards the sky and left to right, I can visualize...
but I just don't seem to be able to do it right. Because I would always end up turning that wrist to the left in the end and facing forward, causing slice...
picking up the swing speed to late, my body would drift to the left too...
but I guess I will train another 10 months !! :)
Won't get discouraged, thanks pomeranian...
I will just focus on trying to launch it in the air to the sky...
And eventually someday I will wake up and my muscle memory will pick up...
It will be a happy day, I can just tell you that !! :)