the clock analogy...spin serves [Archive]

floran ivanisevic

02-23-2006, 06:23 AM

Just a thought...

Reading again the kick serve threads and the debate between Marius, Bungalo B, everybody...reading different tennis magazines...the debate is still open on the success you can earn from using the clock analogy to hit spin serves...

But I thought it might be a confusion...

I feel that if you imagine the ball as a clock and try to hit it from 7 to 1 you will end supinating and not pronating, because you will try to focus on hitting the ball only and therefore to round and force your hand around the ball, ending left to right...and slicing it, at best a bit topslicing it...

While if the clock is your HEAD and not THE BALL, and you swing from 7 yo 1behind your head, your head as the clock-axis, you will actually image a swing path , and you won't have the wrist problem, and the pronation will occur naturally in the end...
It might not be a new information but as I am confused...
Could my thought be somehow correct ?

By the way Rod Laver says, forget your arm and your racket and be agressive with your body to influence the ball...:) so it might be the body that has to move from 7 to 1...but just forgetting Rod for a moment what do you think of my interpretation of the clock analogy ?

Freedom

02-23-2006, 11:56 AM

Swinging from 7 to 11? Where did you hear that? Maybe you need to look at a clock- if you swing from 7 to 11, you're swinging straight up. That's a problem.

You need to swing like 7 to 1.

floran ivanisevic

02-23-2006, 03:51 PM

sorry big misprint and typing error, I mean 7 to 1 of course, but by question stands...

floran ivanisevic

02-23-2006, 04:07 PM

I just went over 2 tennis magazines...Ace tennis says imagine the ball as a clock and swing from 7 to 1. Tennis Magazine says, swing your racquet head from 7 to 1...as you now maybe understand better my first comment up there, it is completely different no ?
One is a ball contact theory, the other is a swing path theory...
I think like Bungalo Bill that the swing path theory is the correct one :)

TENNIS_99

02-23-2006, 04:25 PM

Guys, No offense, But I hate "the clock analogy". Just bring too much thinking to the serve. How the ball bounces is just simple physics.

One of the best serve tips I kown of was "get your flat serve works first". Once you get your flat serve where you want to hit, spinners are around the corner.

floran ivanisevic

02-23-2006, 04:45 PM

It is a point of view indeed :)
But if you want to hit top spin like Pat Rafter or Stefan Edberg, it won't be around the corner I fear...

TENNIS_99

02-23-2006, 05:00 PM

Fair enough, my serve will never be closer to Pat Rafter or Stefan Edberg. But I also bet neither of them thinking about the clock or the time(s) during their serves. Anyway, this thread is not about this, sorry to hijack it. Hope someone comes along and resolves the debate long pending...

cheers

floran ivanisevic

02-23-2006, 05:03 PM

Thanks tennis 99, yes...please can someone resolve my question and debate ?? going back to my first comment on top...

gzhpcu

02-23-2006, 10:09 PM

Another way to look at it, is that you see yourself in the center of a clock, and you think of placing the ball (seen from the back) at 12 o'clock for a first serve, and 11 o'clock for a second serve with lots of spin.

floran ivanisevic

02-23-2006, 10:53 PM

Very interesting GZHCPU...I'll try that...:)

So with your way of doing it, and I agree, ( It's actually close to my head clock analogy) you placing the entire body instead of the head only, I guess you definitely get the right swing path...and it's better than imaging the ball as the clock ...

But it might sometimes also end up as a being a good topslice not a high bounding top spin, even if you swing from 7 to 12...

There to get the real good bounce of the top spin like Rafter or Edberg...
I would guess 3 points...

1- Getting the good knee bend and exploding release upward like Agassi, Courrier, or Becker...
2-Getting the racket head to drop low behind your back... some people image that to having the butt pointing the sky, or the elbow right under the ball...and swing up severely before contact...
3- Hitting the ball when it is on the way down, to lift it up, instead of hitting it at the peak which would lead to topslice, a bit like Nadal or Leconte...

What do you all think ?

And by the way to bring it down extremely in the box, like a Beckham freekick or a plane turbulence fall, would you increase swing speed or is it a natural effect of a good swing path and follow thru that went to the end lwithout stopping on the way ?

munk3y

02-23-2006, 10:59 PM

tennis 99 is right, the clock analogy only makes things more complicated. I mean, if you understand what topspin is, then it is logical enough to say that hitting up in a serve will automatically generate topspin anyway, its just a matter of racquet head speed.

I mean, do you really need to hit 7 to 1 all the time to generate a kick serve? I think not. I mean no offense but the logic surrounded a kick serve isn't really that complicated.

Sure there are biomechanics that will/will not enhance a kicker but a kicker is just the racquet hitting the ball in an upwards motion. Anyway, thats my opinion on this debate :) good day now.

floran ivanisevic

02-23-2006, 11:12 PM

fair enough munk3y...
what you say about the top spin physics, hitting up is point number 1 on my last answer ( the hip coil and knee bend released to the sky )
Racket head speed is point number 2 ( from the racket drop )
We might discuss point number 3...
But what about my PS, on bringing it down severely like Rafter and getting it up twice as severely again like Pat...:)

munk3y

02-23-2006, 11:19 PM

PS? What is PS?

vinky

02-23-2006, 11:24 PM

ps = prostaff?

floran ivanisevic

02-23-2006, 11:39 PM

post scriptum in Latin... that's the note coming after the conclusion...
In that case the reference to sending the ball down severely like Rafter...
but I might use PS as Pro Staff from now on :)

munk3y

02-24-2006, 12:09 AM

What do you mean by sending the ball down severely?
lol sorry I dont quite understand this

floran ivanisevic

02-24-2006, 12:32 AM

well you know, with severe topspin the ball seems to sink down like a plane turbulence, just swooshhh...Have you ever seen Jim Courrier or Pete Sampras Heavy ball top spin, it just sinks like a rock...
Of course theoritically it is only the amount of heavy spin...
Therefore I come back to my question to increase heavy spin to you swing faster ( racket head speed ) or do you finish the follow thru more exagerated...
Anyway I guess we are a bit drifting away...

the debate was from this post...

"placing the entire body instead of the head only, I guess you definitely get the right swing path...and it's better than imaging the ball as the clock ...
But it might sometimes also end up as a being a good topslice not a high bounding top spin, even if you swing from 7 to 12...
There to get the real good bounce of the top spin like Rafter or Edberg...
I would guess 3 points...
1- Getting the good knee bend and exploding release upward like Agassi, Courrier, or Becker...
2-Getting the racket head to drop low behind your back... some people image that to having the butt pointing the sky, or the elbow right under the ball...and swing up severely before contact...
3- Hitting the ball when it is on the way down, to lift it up, instead of hitting it at the peak which would lead to topslice, a bit like Nadal or Leconte...

What do you all think ?

And by the way to bring it down extremely in the box, like a Beckham freekick or a plane turbulence fall, would you increase swing speed or is it a natural effect of a good swing path and follow thru that went to the end lwithout stopping on the way ?"

ShooterMcMarco

02-24-2006, 01:32 AM

For me, what helped is pretending like I'm going to hit the ball to the sky and high fiving it with my racquet. My toss is more towards my left so brushing for topspin comes naturally as a result of the swing path without having to think about clockfaces.

floran ivanisevic

02-24-2006, 01:47 AM

I know John Yandell is a big fan of the high five analogy...but for me it just ends in a flat canonball :)
But I'll try it again...thanks shootermcmarco...

gzhpcu

02-24-2006, 02:13 AM

I would add:
- think of hitting up and hitting inside-out. All very loosely, pronation occuring naturally
- therefore the rackethead and arm go from left to right through impact
- elbow high after impact and palm of racket facing the backfence (racket pointing downwards).

brucie

02-24-2006, 03:02 AM

I just think "hit up the back of the ball" and use the correct "chopper" grip or continental if thats what you like to call it, making the grip more extreme like federer and bending knees and back help generate more fizz if your hitting a "Top spin Americian twist serve" also where you throw the ball federer throw it over his head and arches his back i have tried this it is good but gives you back ache if your playing 5 sets so no good to me.

munk3y

02-24-2006, 01:16 PM

Pomeranian

02-24-2006, 03:44 PM

gzhpcu

02-24-2006, 10:52 PM

Here is an article of interest: Serve Toss (http://www.stms.nl/augustus2003/artikel9.html)

Many players hit their serve when the ball they toss up reaches its peak. If instead, the player were to toss the ball up about 8 inches (20 cm) above the eventual impact point and hit the ball as it was falling, topspin would automatically be added to the ball, with no additional effort by the server. It would not be a lot of topspin (about 10 revolutions/second), but enough to open up the window and allow more serves to go in.
If you are already hitting the ball at a height of 9 feet or more and not hitting it very hard (about 120 mph or 193 km/h), this extra spin will open the window by about 29% since the window is already large. If you try to hit the serve very hard (150 mph and you succeed) you will have a small acceptance window, but the 10 rps of topspin will help you to get an extra 41% of your serves in.

TennisAsAlways

02-24-2006, 11:14 PM

Hrm, but I would think a topslice (...isn't the name for that a twist serve?) would be more advantageous as the wierd bounce would cause more errors from your opponent?A serve with a combination of topspin and slice is also called a twist serve. The "topspin-slice" however is a bit different from the "twist". For both serves, the ball curves in the same horizontal path but the difference is when they bounce. For the "twist" serve, (For a right-handed server) the ball curves to the servers left in the air and bounces towards the returners left side. For a "topspin-slice" serve, the ball also curves towards the server's left in the air but when it hits the ground, it bounces and or skids in the same path as it was traveling whilst midair.

Now as far as the word kick/kicker, it bascally means "jump up" or "topspin" (because topspin makes balls jump). Some people use the term "kick/kicker" to describe an American twist serve (aka "twist serve"). Others may use the terms to describe a pure topspin serve. Because people tend to use the terms loosely and interchangeably, this can cause a lot of confusion when it comes to terminology usage by different people.

Other names that I can think of for the "topspin-slice" serve at the moment are: kicker-slice serve, kicking-slice serve, topspin-slider serve, kicking-slider serve, kicker-slider serve, sidespin-kicker serve, and topspin-sidespin serve.

Technically, a lot of people's (what they call) topspin serves are actually twists, reverse twists, topspin-slices, and reverse topspin-slices. That is because the chances of "perfectly" producing spin in the 6 o'clock - 12 o'clock direction is very very low when considering that all the variables are there that could more likely cause a result in "some" sidespin due to mishitting. You could say the same to the slice as well; technically when a lot of times when people attempt to hit pure slice, they are actually getting some topspin on it as well. It is highly unlikely for anyone to consistently hit a ball with true topspin or true sidespin.

Good day now. 8)

TennisAsAlways

02-27-2006, 09:10 PM

http://www.filelodge.com/files/room13/314282/Twist%20-%20Yellow%20-%20slowmo%20%2B%20regular%20speed.gif
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room13/314282/MY%20diagram%20of%20toss%20loactions.bmp

Good day now. 8)

mucat

02-27-2006, 10:36 PM

Topspin-slice and twist serve are NOT the same.

Almost all of us here knows how to hit a topspin groundstrokes, the topspin serve is exactly the same thing, you have to have low to high motion to apply topspin, just think low to high, brush up, etc. For a faster topspin serve, hit thru the ball more, just like a topsin groundstrokes, hit thru more for power.

Pomeranian

02-27-2006, 10:46 PM

According to that little animation, that looks like a twist to me. The tossing hand looks right, if you toss in an arc the ball will end up to the left and behind you like a twist should be. Define your definition of twist. Mine is that for a right hander it will curve to the reciever's forehand (right hander) but then bounce high towards the backhand of the reciever. To get the ball to dip and bounce up quicker, you need more spin. Hitting through the ball more will have a less spinny shot, it can be a good thing, but you comprimise the safe height you can put on the ball.

There is also slice and sidespin. Both those spins have more of a sidespin. The animation, imo, is a twist. Any serve even topspin doesn't have a straight topspin, but some degree of sidespin on it. That being said, a twist will have a higher degree of sidespin. And slice and sidespin the highest degrees of sidespin.

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 08:17 AM

Topspin Slice

Most people naturally serve with light spin at an angle about halfway between topspin and slice. We call this kind of serve a topspin-slice. You can think of it as a blend of both topspin and slice, because it blends the effects of both. That is, the ball's flight path curves leftward and dives, bouncing high.

American Twist

Usually, when people refer to the "twist" serve, they mean the American twist, a topspin-slice serve with mostly topspin. This serve's flight path curves slightly leftward (the effect of slice) and dives (the effect of topspin). This angular spin causes the ball to break RIGHTWARD after the bounce, bouncing high (the effect of topspin). Ideally, of course. You have to get heavy spin on a fluffy new ball to really see a pronounced leftward curve and rightward break.

Twist serves are also called "kick" serves. But note that some use the term "kick" for any serve with topspin on it, not just twist serves.

There are, however, some trick serves with clockwise sidespin (reverse slice) on them. For example, before the American twist was invented, players got clockwise sidespin on a serve by swinging right-to-left across the back of the ball, following through over the top of the head! So, I guess reverse twist and reverse slice are possible. In fact, I heard of a serve struck with the backhanded face of the racket. Chances are, you'll never encounter these trick serves. But if you do, just think of this reverse sidespin as lefty slice.

[Source]:

http://operationdoubles.com/index.htm?spindoctoringserve.htm

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 09:11 AM

Define your definition of twist. Mine is that for a right hander it will curve to the reciever's forehand (right hander) but then bounce high towards the backhand of the reciever. My definition of a "twist" is the same as yours; that is (for a right-handed person's twist serve), while in flight, the ball dives downward quickly and at the same time it curves to the left (left of the server/ right or the receiver). When it bounces, it jumps towards the right (right of the server/ left of the receiver).

This is what I am talking about. The terminologies cause so much confusion among different people. For instance, some people consider the "twist" the same as the "topspin slice" with the only difference being that a "twist" jumps vertically more than it bounces to the right horizontally, and the "topspin slice" bounces to the rightward direction more than it jumps up vertically.

Do you people see how insane everything is?........http://www.filelodge.com/files/room13/314282/Clock_3.gif

Goo day now. 8)

cruzersi99

02-28-2006, 09:50 AM

Clock analogies are just a tool. They work for some people they don't work for others. Once a person figures out how to hit one type of spin serve it will open the doors to understanding how to hit others.

One good thing about the clock analogy is that if it is followed your contact on the ball should be a brush on the ball. Lots of times when I see people learning to hit spin serves, they catch too much of the ball. There next reaction is to swing slower (which is wrong). As far as hitting an american twist serve the clock may or may not work for some people envisioning hitting 7/8 to 1/2 works, but for others it will do nothing more the create a topsin serve or maybe even a flat serve depending on the followthrough. If you want to stick to the clock analogy (in this scenario) then I try and tell students to angle the clock 30 degress to the baseline > (imagine the bottom line is the baseline, and the top line is the clock). To hit the american twist you still want to hit 6 to 12.

As far as pronation, supination etc., i wouldn't worry about it. The natural swing motion will take care of this. Relax your grip and your arm, and it will happen.

Other tips:

Swing speed should remain the same.
Adjust your toss. I think the easiest spin serve to learn is the slice serve. Adjust your toss by tossing it out 6-12 inches further right (for rightes)Really exagerate it. In order to get the ball to land anywhere close the the correct service box will require you to make an adjustment in your swing. After you hit a couple in move your toss back to a more normal position but maintain that swing path.

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 10:44 AM

Here is how the "About" site elaborates a Topspin-slice and a Twist:

Topspin-slice

The topspin-slice serve is the most common first serve used at the intermediate and advanced levels in tennis.

As the name implies, it uses a combination of topspin and slice (which on serves is sidespin, not backspin). The topspin increases the margin of error over the net, the height of the bounce, and the effective speed of the serve (by decreasing deceleration on the bounce). The slice makes the ball curve to the left (for right-handed servers). The topspin-slice serve can generally be hit with the most power of any of the spin serves. This serve is often called a "slice serve," which causes an unnecessary confusion with the pure slice serve that only has sidespin.

Twist

The twist serve is one of the two kick serves. The other is its close cousin, the topspin serve. At the pro level in tennis, more than 90% of second serves are kick serves, primarily because of their reliability. The "kick" in these serves is the high bounce created by their heavy topspin, and that bounce makes them more difficult to return. Heavy topspin also creates a generous margin of error over the net, providing the safety needed for a second serve. The twist serve is more difficult to return than the topspin because it curves in the air to the receiver's right (from a right-handed server), then bounces up and to the receiver's left. Where it will end up is hard to predict even for an experienced receiver. The twist serve is also more difficult to generate than the topspin.

mucat

02-28-2006, 10:47 AM

DUHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! You "MUST" be really confused!! The term "topspin-slice" doesn't mean "topspin or slice"; it means "topspin with slice"!

In that diagram that I have provided, why else do you think there is the postion reserved solely for "topspin"? Look at the 11-12 o'clock postion. That's topspin. The 1-1:30 position is "topspin-slice" or "topspin with slice combined". "Topspin-slice/ topspin with slice" is also known as "twist" and "topspin-slider". The term "topspin-slider" tranlaslate with the word "topspin - slice" word for word almost; topspin means topspin and slice means slider. The only thing is that "slice" has a double meaning; it is used to refer to underspin/backspin and sidespin. "Slider" refers to only sidespin. (Since you do not understand and are assuming the I don't know what I am talking about when in fact I do and you don't I have to elobarate even further.)

Assuming both player are righthanded. Before the bounce, both topspin-slice and twist will have the same flight-path, curve to the right of the returner. After the bounce, topspin-slice serve will bounce to the RIGHT of the returner while twist will bounce to the LEFT of the returner. So, Topspin-slice is NOT also known as twist.

Depending on what you want to do with the serve, topspin serve doesn't necessary needs to bounce high, you can always trade spin for a little more power, aim it a little down, hit thru more, you will have a slower (compare to flat) but more reliable 1st serve. If you want to, you can even put a little twist into it, the ball will bounce low (almost but not as low as flat) to the BH of your opponent.

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 10:51 AM

So going with the elaboration from the "About" website, the "twist" and the "topspin-slice" have a similar directional curve in the air. The difference is that the topspin-slice doesn't jump over to the leftwards direction of the returner (Note how the ariticle did not describe that the topspin-slice bounces to the receiver's left, it just describes the flight direction.) That's because going with their definition, the topspin-slice had more sidespin than a twist therefore the topspin-slice doesn't bounce to the returner's left, and that is due to the skid action from the more pure sidespin.

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 10:58 AM

Topspin-slice is NOT also known as twist.

Technically it is not. If you search the web though and look through the teaching materials then you would see how mixed up people are with these terms and use them differently from other people.

What I was saying is that with the mixed up terminology in tennis, it is also known as that; just like how people incorrectly refer to the term American Twist when they actually mean "topspin" (pure topspin). Sometimes people will call a "twist" plainly " kicker". That would be technically not very precise because although the twist does kick, just calling a "twist" "kick" doesn't describe the difference between it and a pure topspin because kicker essentially means jump.

So what I am saying is that calling a "twist" serve a "kicker" wouldn't point out that the serve has sidespin and so it is not a good choice to call a "twist" "kicker". Now if you call a pure topspin serve a "kicker" then at least that is somewhat acceptable.

mucat

02-28-2006, 11:04 AM

So going with the elaboration from the "About" website, the "twist" and the "topspin-slice" have a similar directional curve in the air. The differnece is that the topspin-slice doesn't jump up high (Note how the ariticle dod not describe that the topspin-slice bounces to the receiver's left, it just describes the flight direction.) That's because going with thier definition, the topspin-slice had more sidespin than a twist therefore the topspin-slice doesn't bounce much.

For topspin slice and twist, now it has 3 variables, pace, topspin, and sidespin.

Pace makes the ball go faster,
topspin makes the ball bounce higher,
sidespin makes the ball curve in the air and bounce side way.

These 3 variables can all be adjust by the server. The only different between topspin-slice and twist is after it bounce, one bounce to the right, the other bounce to the left.

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 11:07 AM

Assuming both player are righthanded. Before the bounce, both topspin-slice and twist will have the same flight-path, curve to the right of the returner. After the bounce, topspin-slice serve will bounce to the RIGHT of the returner while twist will bounce to the LEFT of the returner. So, Topspin-slice is NOT also known as twist.

Depending on what you want to do with the serve, topspin serve doesn't necessary needs to bounce high, you can always trade spin for a little more power, aim it a little down, hit thru more, you will have a slower (compare to flat) but more reliable 1st serve. If you want to, you can even put a little twist into it, the ball will bounce low (almost but not as low as flat) to the BH of your opponent.Where did you even get the post reply from anyways? I deleted it literally like 1 minute after I posted it, while your light status showed that you were offline. Maybe you weren't offline but were on invisible mode and now you have decided to turn invisible mode on? :confused:

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 11:12 AM

For topspin slice and twist, now it has 3 variables, pace, topspin, and sidespin.

Pace makes the ball go faster,
topspin makes the ball bounce higher,
sidespin makes the ball curve in the air and bounce side way.

These 3 variables can all be adjust by the server. The only different between topspin-slice and twist is after it bounce, one bounce to the right, the other bounce to the left.(ASSUME EVERYTHING THUS FAR IS FOR A RIGHT HANDED SERVER)

The reason why a correctly executed-"topspin-slice" wouldn't bounce to the receivers left is because with more extreme sidespin the ball skids more than it bounces. The toss location of the topspin-slice enables an easier accessiblity to impart more sidespin. Now obviously you don't have to toss the ball in that location in order to get a lot of sidespin. That's just the general location that allows one to impart the sideways swing path easily.

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 11:23 AM

mucat

02-28-2006, 11:25 AM

Where did you even get the post reply from anyways? I deleted it literally like 1 minute after I posted it, while your light status showed that you were offline. Maybe you weren't offline but were on invisible mode and now you have decided to turn invisible mode on?

Anyways, my point is that I find it very strange that you would reply to that post hours after I had posted it and deleted it. It's almost as though you clicked on the quote botton, logged off and waited to come up with a reply. :coinfused:

I didn't know there are light status (what is that?) and invisible mode here. The reply was from the email I received from subscribed thread. You need to cut down on posting, it is not good to your health. ;)

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 11:30 AM

sidespin makes the ball curve in the air and bounce side way.

Not always true. For instance, perfect sidespin that's parallel to the ground will not cause the ball to bounce sideways. The ball would skid in the direction in which it was travelling in flight. When non-true sidespin is imparted, that's when the ball rolls/bounces to the direction in which it is spinning. It's a gyro effect.

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 11:34 AM

I didn't know there are light status (what is that?) and invisible mode here. The reply was from the email I received from subscribed thread. You need to cut down on posting, it is not good to your health. ;)I forgot about email. Basically with th email feature, I guess when someone takes back their words, nothing goes unkown.

As far as the lights, look at the green indicator light under my user name. When it's green, that tells others that I am logged online. If it is not lit then that means that either I am logged off or that I am on invisible mode. Invisible mode enables one to be logged on but privately, so that others do not know that you're here.

mucat

02-28-2006, 11:38 AM

The reason why a correctly-executed-"twist" jumps to the left of the receiver is because it has more of a truer topspin on it than a "topspin-slice serve" has. That allows more kick to be imparted on the ball and also the serve typically has less pace -- due to the more upwards swing path -- and so that gives the ball enough time to hop to the direction in which it is rolling (rather than skid like how a "topspin slice" does) which should be towards the left of the receiver.

Good day now. 8)

No, it is NOT because it has a more truer topspin. No, it is NOT due to the more upward swing path, you don't swing more upward to hit the twist.

The reason the twist bounce to the BH of the returner is because of sidespin, you don't have to have a slow pace ball to create this bounce, you just need to have a fast enough swing and correct swing path (swing from left to right) and correct toss (a little to the left).

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 11:46 AM

No, it is NOT because it has a more truer topspin. No, it is NOT due to the more upward swing path, you don't swing more upward to hit the twist.

The reason the twist bounce to the BH of the returner is because of sidespin, you don't have to have a slow pace ball to create this bounce, you just need to have a fast enough swing and correct swing path (swing from left to right) and correct toss (a little to the left).You don't get what I am saying. Of course I am NOT saying that topspin generates the sidewards bounce. I am not saying that the topspin "ALONE" contributes to the ball hopping to the left of the retievier. It's a combination of the topspin and sidespin.

What I am saying is that without "any" upwards bounce, even if the ball had sidespin on it, there would be no way that the ball could bounce in any direction!

Now because the twist is tossed at the 11-12 position, the swing path tends to impart more topsin, therefore the ball has more bounce. That upwards bounce combined with the directional sidespins enables the ball to jump to the left of the receiver.

Now picture a ball with no bounce but with sidespin, spinning in the left to right direction. Although that ball has more sidespin than topspin(more sideways directional roll), there's no way that it will bounce to the left of the receiver since if has no bounce to begin with! Topspin would give it more bounce!

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 12:46 PM

No, it is NOT because it has a more truer topspin. No, it is NOT due to the more upward swing path, you don't swing more upward to hit the twist.

The reason the twist bounce to the BH of the returner is because of sidespin, you don't have to have a slow pace ball to create this bounce, you just need to have a fast enough swing and correct swing path (swing from left to right) and correct toss (a little to the left).The discussion was about why "twist serves" cause the ball to jump to the receiver's left and why correctly-executed-"topspin-slices" do not jump to the left as much or at all (again this pertains to right-handed servers). I wasn't at all questioning as to how and or why the "twist" bounces to the left of the retreiver.

Anyways, if you are implying that the reason why "twists" jump to the left of receivers because they have more sidespin than "topspin-slices" then that is NOT exactly the reason as to why "twists" jump to the receivers left and "topspin-slices" do not. If that was what you were implying then it is NOT correct because it would be like implying that "more" sidespin causes the ball to jump "more" to the receiver's left -- that is not true, as I have described how pure slices almost doesn't even jump much at all.

In conclusion, there's a threshold at which the spin ratios (sidespin/topspin) that enable the most horizontal-vertical ball bounce, lie within. Too much topspin and the ball would have less sidewards bounce. Too much sidespin and the ball would have less jumping height to overcome the forward momentum (This is why I mentioned the pace being a contrinbuting factor as well. Pace is not the sole factor but it is should also be taken into account).

mucat

02-28-2006, 12:59 PM

You don't get what I am saying. Of course I am NOT saying that topspin generates the sidewards bounce. I am not saying that the topspin "ALONE" contributes to the ball hopping to the left of the retievier. It's a combination of the topspin and sidespin.

What I am saying is that without "any" upwards bounce, even if the ball had sidespin on it, there would be no way that the ball could bounce in any direction!

Now because the twist is tossed at the 11-12 position, the swing path tends to impart more topsin, therefore the ball has more bounce. That upwards bounce combined with the directional sidespins enables the ball to jump to the left of the receiver.

Now picture a ball with no bounce but with sidespin, spinning in the left to right direction. Although that ball has more sidespin than topspin(more sideways directional roll), there's no way that it will bounce to the left of the receiver since if has no bounce to begin with! Topspin would give it more bounce!

I dont understand what you mean by without "any" upwards bounce, any serve will have upward bounce, the different is how high they bounce. When tossing the ball to the 11-12 position, you can actually toss the ball more into the court to trade spin for pace, that's the reason I said twist serve doesn't require more upward swing path.

I agree with you sidespin analogy, but for the twist serve, I believe the "sidespin" is not actually a slice side-to-side, otherwise, you will just have a topspin-slice which both curve and bounce to the left of the returner. But the twist serve is not, the twist serve acts like a topspin-slice serve in the air, then bounce the opposite way than the topspin-slice. So obviously, it is not just a sidespin serve. From what I can tell, I think it is more a spin along the plane perpendicular to the ground and parallel to the baseline, that why it has the effect of bounce to the BH of returner, but I am no physicist, I still don't understand the slice-alike curve in the air. The reason I believe this is because, when I hit the twist serve, I have to exaggerate the left to right element of my swing path to increase the twisted bounce, and I don't hit upward at the ball, I hit thru the ball. And if I really whack at it, I can hit a relatively flatter serve with twist in it, but I doubt I can sustain it for a set.

mucat

02-28-2006, 01:18 PM

The discussion was about why "twist serves" cause the ball to jump to the receiver's left and why correctly-executed-"topspin-slices" do not jump to the left as much or at all (again this pertains to right-handed servers). I wasn't at all questioning as to how and or why the "twist" bounces to the left of the retreiver.

Anyways, if you are implying that the reason why "twists" jump to the left of receivers because they have more sidespin than "topspin-slices" then that is NOT exactly the reason as to why "twists" jump to the receivers left and "topspin-slices" do not. If that was what you were implying then it is NOT correct because it would be like implying that "more" sidespin causes the ball to jump "more" to the receiver's left -- that is not true, as I have described how pure slices almost doesn't even jump much at all.

In conclusion, there's a threshold at which the spin ratios (sidespin/topspin) that enable the most horizontal-vertical ball bounce, lie within. Too much topspin and the ball would have less sidewards bounce. Too much sidespin and the ball would have less jumping height to overcome the forward momentum (This is why I mentioned the pace being a contrinbuting factor as well. Pace is not the sole factor but it is should also be taken into account).

Again,
Topspin-slice serve bounce to the RIGHT side of the returner.
Twist serve bounce to the LEFT side of the returner.

Twist DOES NOT bounce to the right cause by more sidespin than a Topspin-slice, it is cause by a totally different sidespin directionally. Please reread what I posted.

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 01:38 PM

Again,
Topspin-slice serve bounce to the RIGHT side of the returner.
Twist serve bounce to the LEFT side of the returner.

Twist DOES NOT bounce to the right cause by more sidespin than a Topspin-slice, it is cause by a totally different sidespin directionally. Please reread what I posted.You know what?..................Just forget it! I think we are on the same page but are just confusing the heck out of each other and other readers. For instance, you stated that you do not see the sidespin on a twist as a side to side motion but more of a topspin motion. That right there made me realize that we are on the same page. You see it like that, but i see it differently. Even though the side to side spin of the ball on a twist is not going from a true 3-9 o'clock path, I still see it as a side to side motion; it just so happens to be a more slanted upwards side to side motion. Yes it is true that once the true side to side 3-9 o'clock motion has been shifted to the slanted upwards motion that it also enters into another plane (as how you pointed out) but some of it is still in the original 3-9 o'clock plane (how I see it). Bottom line is, we are seeing the SAME thing but interpreting it differently.

I think we just confused a bunch of members following this thread now.

Good day now. 8)

cruzersi99

02-28-2006, 01:43 PM

You know what?..................Just forget it! I think we are on the same page but are just confusing the heck out of each other and other readers. For instance, you stated that you do not see the sidespin on a twist as a side to side motion but more of a topspin motion. That right there made me realize that we are on the same page. You see it like that, but i see it differently. Even though the side to side spin of the ball on a twist is not going from a true 3-9 o'clock path, I still see it as a side to side motion; it just so happens to be a more slanted upwards side to side motion. Yes it is true that once the true side to side 3-9 o'clock motion has been shifted to the slanted upwards motion that it also enters into another plane (as how you pointed out) but some of it is still in the original 3-9 o'clock plane (how I see it). Bottom line is, we are seeing the SAME thing but interpreting it differently.

I think we just confused a bunch of members following this thread now.

Good day now. 8)

hahahah...i was thinking the same thing to myself as I read through your guy's posts.

The reality is that no matter what you want to call it. Several different types of spins serves can be generated. Some are more effective then others, and what you hit well may very.

mucat

02-28-2006, 01:49 PM

Not always true. For instance, perfect sidespin that's parallel to the ground will not cause the ball to bounce sideways. The ball would skid in the direction in which it was travelling in flight. When non-true sidespin is imparted, that's when the ball rolls/bounces to the direction in which it is spinning. It's a gyro effect.

My post
"For topspin slice and twist, now it has 3 variables, pace, topspin, and sidespin.

Pace makes the ball go faster,
topspin makes the ball bounce higher,
sidespin makes the ball curve in the air and bounce side way.

These 3 variables can all be adjust by the server. The only different between topspin-slice and twist is after it bounce, one bounce to the right, the other bounce to the left."

You quoted my post
"sidespin makes the ball curve in the air and bounce side way."

Please stop partially quoting other people's post to make it looks like it is wrong.

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 02:00 PM

My post
"For topspin slice and twist, now it has 3 variables, pace, topspin, and sidespin.

Pace makes the ball go faster,
topspin makes the ball bounce higher,
sidespin makes the ball curve in the air and bounce side way.

These 3 variables can all be adjust by the server. The only different between topspin-slice and twist is after it bounce, one bounce to the right, the other bounce to the left."

You quoted my post
"sidespin makes the ball curve in the air and bounce side way."

Please stop partially quoting other people's post to make it looks like it is wrong.Well in that particular instance, it wouldn't have mattered if I had quoted your partial post or entire post. My reply would still apply to that single sentence reguardless.

mucat

02-28-2006, 02:05 PM

You know what?..................Just forget it! I think we are on the same page but are just confusing the heck out of each other and other readers. For instance, you stated that you do not see the sidespin on a twist as a side to side motion but more of a topspin motion. That right there made me realize that we are on the same page. You see it like that, but i see it differently. Even though the side to side spin of the ball on a twist is not going from a true 3-9 o'clock path, I still see it as a side to side motion; it just so happens to be a more slanted upwards side to side motion. Yes it is true that once the true side to side 3-9 o'clock motion has been shifted to the slanted upwards motion that it also enters into another plane (as how you pointed out) but some of it is still in the original 3-9 o'clock plane (how I see it). Bottom line is, we are seeing the SAME thing but interpreting it differently.

I think we just confused a bunch of members following this thread now.

Good day now. 8)

No, I did not say it is more a topspin motion. What I meant was it is not the side-to-side spin similiar to topspin-slice serve. You have to think in 3 dimensions, the ball is a sphere, not a circle, thats one of the reason the clockface analogy doesn't work for some people. It is not a more upward motion, it is more related to where the racket contact the ball. I believe the ball is spin on the axis it travel from left to right, but this is just from personal observsation.

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 02:12 PM

I dont understand what you mean by without "any" upwards bounce, any serve will have upward bounce, the different is how high they bounce. When tossing the ball to the 11-12 position, you can actually toss the ball more into the court to trade spin for pace, that's the reason I said twist serve doesn't require more upward swing path.

I agree with you sidespin analogy, but for the twist serve, I believe the "sidespin" is not actually a slice side-to-side, otherwise, you will just have a topspin-slice which both curve and bounce to the left of the returner. But the twist serve is not, the twist serve acts like a topspin-slice serve in the air, then bounce the opposite way than the topspin-slice. So obviously, it is not just a sidespin serve. From what I can tell, I think it is more a spin along the plane perpendicular to the ground and parallel to the baseline, that why it has the effect of bounce to the BH of returner, but I am no physicist, I still don't understand the slice-alike curve in the air. The reason I believe this is because, when I hit the twist serve, I have to exaggerate the left to right element of my swing path to increase the twisted bounce, and I don't hit upward at the ball, I hit thru the ball. And if I really whack at it, I can hit a relatively flatter serve with twist in it, but I doubt I can sustain it for a set.Of course just about every serve will have an upwards bounce. I was just trying to go to the extreme by giving you an example of a ball with no bounce in order to paint a clear picture so that you could see how I was trying to explain the different degrees of ball rebound and it's impact on directional movement.

mucat

02-28-2006, 02:18 PM

Well in that particular instance, it wouldn't have mattered if I had quoted your partial post or entire post. My reply would still apply to that single sentence reguardless.

The problem is, you are not even quoting a single sentence.

What I said
"For topspin slice and twist, now it has 3 variables, pace, topspin, and sidespin.

Pace makes the ball go faster,
topspin makes the ball bounce higher,
sidespin makes the ball curve in the air and bounce side way.

These 3 variables can all be adjust by the server. The only different between topspin-slice and twist is after it bounce, one bounce to the right, the other bounce to the left."

Then you quoted me
"sidespin makes the ball curve in the air and bounce side way."

and you said
"Not always true. For instance, perfect sidespin that's parallel to the ground will not cause the ball to bounce sideways. The ball would skid in the direction in which it was travelling in flight. When non-true sidespin is imparted, that's when the ball rolls/bounces to the direction in which it is spinning. It's a gyro effect."

Please do not partial quote people's post to make it looks like it is wrong.

mucat

02-28-2006, 02:22 PM

Of course just about every serve will have an upwards bounce. I was just trying to go to the extreme by giving you an example of a ball with no bounce in order to paint a clear picture so that you could see how I was trying to explain the different degrees of ball rebound and it's impact on directional movement.

Stop watching Prince of Tennis. It wouldn't help your game.

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 02:25 PM

No, I did not say it is more a topspin motion.[ What I meant was it is not the side-to-side spin similiar to topspin-slice serve. You have to think in 3 dimensions, the ball is a sphere, not a circle, thats one of the reason the clockface analogy doesn't work for some people. It is not a more upward motion, it is more related to where the racket contact the ball. I believe the ball is spin on the axis it travel from left to right, but this is just from personal observsation.Well you technically did not say that but you did describe how it's more of a rotation on an axis parallel to the ground.

My translation of spin that is on an axis that's parallel to the ground is a topspin-like rotation. Now I do not mean "topspin rotation" as in the same rotation as a topspin serve, I mean topspin rotation as in: Imagine a regular pure topspin serve. Now imagine that the spin of the ball was shifted a few degrees in either direction. That's what I meant.

The reason why I still considered that there was some side-to-side motion in a "twist" serve is because: (As I have mentioned earlier) chances are people do not usually impart perfect spin therefore it's not always on that axis that's perfectly parallel to the ground.

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 02:28 PM

Stop watching Prince of Tennis. It wouldn't help your game.You're joking? You are the one who knows what "Prince of Tennis" is and now you are telling me to not watch it. I didn't even know what the heck that is until today. Maybe you're the one who should stop watching Prince of Tennis. :rolleyes:

Mattle

02-28-2006, 02:39 PM

I guess the clock theory is made so you can't misunderstand it. For example, if you just said: "to the right" and you had a continental, knowing you HAD to turn your side to the net, not even a compass would help you.

Not all of us are using eastern bh grips for serving, facing the net and looking straight at the ball

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 02:44 PM

That's why, as they say, "hands on training is always best".

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 08:46 PM

I dont understand what you mean by without "any" upwards bounce, any serve will have upward bounce, the different is how high they bounce. When tossing the ball to the 11-12 position, you can actually toss the ball more into the court to trade spin for pace, that's the reason I said twist serve doesn't require more upward swing path.

I agree with you sidespin analogy, but for the twist serve, I believe the "sidespin" is not actually a slice side-to-side, otherwise, you will just have a topspin-slice which both curve and bounce to the left of the returner. But the twist serve is not, the twist serve acts like a topspin-slice serve in the air, then bounce the opposite way than the topspin-slice. So obviously, it is not just a sidespin serve. From what I can tell, I think it is more a spin along the plane perpendicular to the ground and parallel to the baseline, that why it has the effect of bounce to the BH of returner, but I am no physicist, I still don't understand the slice-alike curve in the air. The reason I believe this is because, when I hit the twist serve, I have to exaggerate the left to right element of my swing path to increase the twisted bounce, and I don't hit upward at the ball, I hit thru the ball. And if I really whack at it, I can hit a relatively flatter serve with twist in it, but I doubt I can sustain it for a set.I was looking back through your post and found a mistake. For a right-hander, a topspin-slice would NOT curve and bounce to the left of the returner! It would curve to the right of the returner and bounce in the same direction as it was travelling whilst midair. It would curve to the "right" of the returner, NOT the "left".

mucat

02-28-2006, 10:34 PM

I was looking back through your post and found a mistake. For a right-hander, a topspin-slice would NOT curve and bounce to the left of the returner! It would curve to the right of the returner and bounce in the same direction as it was travelling whilst midair. It would curve to the "right" of the returner, NOT the "left".

You are correct, all this discussion of left and right is starting to confuse me, but I already mentioned many time in previous posts it is to the right. However, it is good you catch this error, we don't want to confuse other readers of the forum.

mucat

02-28-2006, 10:47 PM

Well you technically did not say that but you did describe how it's more of a rotational on an axis parallel to the ground. My translation of spin that is on an axis that's parallel to the groundis a topspin[/i]-like[/i] rotation. Now I do not mean "topspin rotation" as in the same rotation as a topspin serve, I mean topspin rotation as in: Imagine a regular pure topspin serve. Now imagine that the spin of the ball was shifted a few degrees in either direction. That's what I meant.

The reason why I still considered that there was some side-to-side motion in a "twist" serve is because (As I have mentioned earlier) chances are people do not usually impart perfect spin therefore it's not always on that axis that's perfectly parallel to the ground.

Yes, it is parallel to the ground, and it will be more than just a few degree off to the right to create visible and useful twist. And a twist serve with lots of side-to-side motion will closer to "the plane perpendicular to the ground and parallel to the baseline" (what I posted earlier), and that is not topspin (because it is NOT spining in the direction of travel), it is sidespin on a different plane than a slice sidespin.

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 11:19 PM

.................

TennisAsAlways

02-28-2006, 11:21 PM

Yes, it is parallel to the ground, and it will be more than just a few degree off to the right to create visible and useful twist. And a twist serve with lots of side-to-side motion will closer to "the plane perpendicular to the ground and parallel to the baseline" (what I posted earlier), and that is not topspin (because it is NOT spining in the direction of travel), it is sidespin on a different plane than a slice sidespin.What I was saying is that, for a twist serve, it is more probable that people will not impart spin on an axis that's perfectly parallel to the ground. It's more probable that things won't be exact and so the spin would be on a "slightly" perpendicular axis as well.

Now for the a typical-perfect-to-the-eye-executed twist serve, spin along the axis perpendicular to the ground obviously wouldn't be noticible to most people, but it's technically there.

http://x402.putfile.com/3/5901313376.gif ............ -------------->...... http://x402.putfile.com/3/5901363153.gif

That is what I was saying as an FYI.

Good day now. 8)