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Bungalo Bill
03-01-2004, 09:25 AM
Please read this carefully. My first disclaimer is this is a "soft science" and is to be used as a guide but not as rules or absolutes. You also might want to print this out.

Everyone here knows the human being is complicated and by using a "simplified" approach to understanding yourself and others should only be used for insight and not judgement.

With that said, a great deal has been done with brain typing in the business world, it has been used to construct work teams where different peoples talents and characteristics made up a team for maximum performance. If used properly, this proved to be a very effective way to get results. If used improperly, it only caused prejudice and a dysfunctional team. I encourage you if you want to learn more about this area to make sure you get a good resource to learn from.

Vic Braden is beginning to do something he has always wanted to do. He wants to utlizie the work that Myers Briggs has done and further it into the world of sports. It is already being used just on a minor scale.

As you know, Vic is first most a licensed Psychiatrist. His life long ambition is to utilize the Myers Briggs brain typing method, gather all the major sports scientists from different sports and see if brain typing can be a way to help guide a child, a parent, sports franchise, or an aspiring individual in determining what the "best" sport is for that person and how far they will go with that sport.

If this science evolves, this could save franchises millions of dollars in bad mistakes, or parents thousands of dollars in lessons.

Keep in mind, I am NOT a purest in this area and neither is Vic, we both believe that this provides "insight" and not absolutes. But it is an interesting approach to the world of sports - including tennis.

So, according to Myers Briggs, who is your best partner for doubles? The list follows:

amarone
03-01-2004, 09:49 AM
The list follows:Er, no it doesn't.

Bungalo Bill
03-01-2004, 10:08 AM
ESFP - The ENFP has the friendliness necessary to keep you from getting too anxious about winning or losing

ESFJ - You need a good, aggresive net-rusher who'll complement your consistency, such as an ENTJ

ESTJ - An ENFP will help you laugh and enjoy yourself more

ESTP - You'll work well with the ESTJ, an equally fine motor skilled player with good volleys. The ESTJ's versatility and sense of order also will help you calm down.

ENFP - Partner with an ISTP - they go for it and bring the intensity while you cheer the team on and know when it is time to have a good laugh

ENFJ - the ISFP is friendly, supportive and can help calm you down.

ENTP - The INTP shares your love of strategizing and also is willing to let you be the team leader. You'll help him or her hang loose and you will both approach the match thoughtfully.

ENTJ - Team up with that talented risk-taker, the ISTP. Playing with someone like this will help you get out of your mind and go for it a but more.

ISFP - You need the calm, thoughtful manner of the ISTJ, a player whose fine motor skills also makes him or her a good volleyer.

ISFJ - You need a partner who isnt so invested in winning. The fun-loving ENFP is just right.

ISTP - THe ENTJ knows how to corral your talent. He's a smart, ambitious partner who can take charge, but who'll know when to shut up, leave you alone and get down to business.

ISTJ - an ISTP will have a lot in common with you - but this partner also has enough of a swashbuckling spirit to help you loosen up.

INFP - The ISFP is a versatile, friendly player, who also will provide that spirit of play you sometimes lack.

INFJ - The ISTJ is a principled, honorable partner who'll support you, never use profanity and provide a calm atmosphere

INTP - Put yourself in the hands of that gregarious and equally cerebral ENTP

INTJ - The ENTP will help you have more fun and will provide just enough strategic variety to keep your team from falling in to predictability.

The above information comes from research done by Vic Braden.

Mr. Wilson
03-01-2004, 12:03 PM
Intersting post BB. I have been interested in a similiar idea, except for musicians. It is my belief that certain instrumentalists have a common personality type that causes them to gravitate to their particular instrument. The instrument "chooses" them in a way. I also think there is a meta personality type muscian, and it branches off to the different instruments. Great idea for partners in doubles, would stop opposites/incompatibles from working at cross purposes!

Bungalo Bill
03-01-2004, 01:08 PM
Yes, Mr. Wilson

Myers Briggs is very broad scoped as far as application. For example, the Dallas Cowboys used it to find a Quarterback that was (as an example) ENTJ or something close to that. They found Aikman fit the brain type and of course other things. The rest is history. The same test was used with the San Diego Chargers and going against what Myers Briggs suggested along with other data the San Diego Chargers picked Leaf, and we all know what happened after that!

Leaf was not lacking in talent but in leadership skills and the ability to motivate a team around him to perform. Keep in mind, this isnt a perfect science but it is evolving. It definetly can be used to pick a partner and be reasonably comfortable that you at least in the "ball park" of choosing the right person vs. just hoping you get lucky and the right partner comes your way.

Morpheus
03-01-2004, 03:37 PM
I've never heard of brain types, but if you mean personality styles, I'd say that they are a lot less important in tennis than skill. While your at it, perhaps you should use the enneagram (seriously).

Having said all that, all else equal, I take any of the four corners as a partner in the Meyers Briggs and a 3, 8, or 9 in the enneagram.

By the way, I'm an ENTP, type 9w1 and a great doubles player.

kevhen
03-02-2004, 12:23 PM
I am ESTJ now, but grew up ISTJ and am sometimes ENTJ. It would be interesting to see what personality types work best with others in doubles but would guess the more similar the better. I am definitely TJ and prefer to play with other TJ's.

I think we are all percentages of these types and not always 100% one way. I think I am about:

60% E
80% S
90% T
80% J

Joe Oldschool
03-02-2004, 03:46 PM
What do this initials stand for? Am I missing something?

Help?

Morpheus
03-02-2004, 03:56 PM
Do a search on Meyers Briggs or MBTI or Personality Typing...its basic pop psychology.

jayserinos99
03-02-2004, 09:26 PM
I"m an INTJ. Any ENTPs want to play doubles with me?

Bungalo Bill
03-03-2004, 10:04 AM
What do this initials stand for? Am I missing something?

Help?

GOOD POINT! I am glad this post is getting some interest. So what do the intials mean:

go here and find out! Take the test and see which are you!

http://www.personalitypathways.com/type_inventory.html

Bungalo Bill
03-03-2004, 10:10 AM
I am ESTJ now, but grew up ISTJ and am sometimes ENTJ. It would be interesting to see what personality types work best with others in doubles but would guess the more similar the better. I am definitely TJ and prefer to play with other TJ's.

I think we are all percentages of these types and not always 100% one way. I think I am about:

60% E
80% S
90% T
80% J

Very correct and a good point. I am an INTP (2% of the population). My strengths are research and I approach life based on a math formula. This can be a strenght and a weakness! The INTP more then any other type can "act" as another type depending on the situation. In tennis, I play like an ENTP but I test strongly as an INTP. The point is these tests can provide valuable insight into a person as well as yourself. I find them to be quie accurate. Next I will list the top players in tennis and their types.

Bungalo Bill
03-03-2004, 10:12 AM
I"m an INTJ. Any ENTPs want to play doubles with me?

LOL

jmckinney
03-03-2004, 10:23 AM
The most ignorant post I have wasted my time looking at yet.

vin
03-03-2004, 12:25 PM
ISTP - THe ENTJ knows how to corral your talent. He's a smart, ambitious partner who can take charge, but who'll know when to shut up, leave you alone and get down to business.

ISTJ - an ISTP will have a lot in common with you - but this partner also has enough of a swashbuckling spirit to help you loosen up.


I am a combination of ISTP and ISTJ (I could go either way on the last letter)

I fully agree about ENTJ being a good partner for me. I also find it amusing that I'd be a good partner for myself (as an ISTJ) :lol:

Vin

kevhen
03-03-2004, 12:57 PM
Jmckinney must be an N or an F to respond to this thread in such a manner!

This thread is very good for thinking about what double partners might work best. Many tennis players don't play in team sports so they may not understand how important team chemistry is.

My last doubles partner was an F (Feeling) and would lose control and his emotions and start playing horribly, not thinking about what he really should be doing, so I would have to talk him down, and calm him into getting back into his natural game and not be so tense and stressed and going for so much. The more we played together the more he did start thinking (T) and having some good ideas about how to attack our opponents, but that was usually my job.

Bungalo Bill
03-03-2004, 03:02 PM
The most ignorant post I have wasted my time looking at yet.

lol, i knew this post would draw the skeptics out.

Phil
03-03-2004, 08:41 PM
I'm probably a combination of SEVERAL of the labels on the list-it's like fortune telling-you can make generalizations that fit most people, but they donít cover the gray areas.

I'm skeptical about attempts to fit such "systems" that claim to be able to categorize different personality types for use as an analytical tool to gauge talent or doubles compatibility. It's not quite voodoo/witch doctor stuff, but close to it. Pop psychology does a poor job of explaining or pidgeonholing human behavior as a set of simple paradigms. However, since people LIKE to see complex things categorized and reduced to simple little packages, these types of theories, somehow, gain creditibility.

There are too many intangibles...x-factors which prohibit the neat categorizing of people. These systems fail to consider such factors as mood swings, changes to EXTERNAL surroundings which affect personality, the very vague but real factor of chemistry in relationships, and, really, the complexity of human thought processes, particularly when those processes are applied to a game like tennis. Some of the great doubles teams of the last 25 years would have been rejected as incompatible by Braden and crew had they been in a position to make such a judgement.

Okay, to make a long post short, this is poppycock; it FAILS to account for many, many factors that, at this time, cannot be quantified. Itís a simplification, and I donít see it going anywhere soon. However, Iím not totally writing this stuff off-itís nice to know that people like Braden are researching these things and one day may find some answers, only this isnít it-not yet, at least.

Bungalo Bill
03-03-2004, 10:10 PM
I'm probably a combination of SEVERAL of the labels on the list-it's like fortune telling-you can make generalizations that fit most people, but they donít cover the gray areas.

I'm skeptical about attempts to fit such "systems" that claim to be able to categorize different personality types for use as an analytical tool to gauge talent or doubles compatibility. It's not quite voodoo/witch doctor stuff, but close to it. Pop psychology does a poor job of explaining or pidgeonholing human behavior as a set of simple paradigms. However, since people LIKE to see complex things categorized and reduced to simple little packages, these types of theories, somehow, gain creditibility.

There are too many intangibles...x-factors which prohibit the neat categorizing of people. These systems fail to consider such factors as mood swings, changes to EXTERNAL surroundings which affect personality, the very vague but real factor of chemistry in relationships, and, really, the complexity of human thought processes, particularly when those processes are applied to a game like tennis. Some of the great doubles teams of the last 25 years would have been rejected as incompatible by Braden and crew had they been in a position to make such a judgement.

Okay, to make a long post short, this is poppycock; it FAILS to account for many, many factors that, at this time, cannot be quantified. Itís a simplification, and I donít see it going anywhere soon. However, Iím not totally writing this stuff off-itís nice to know that people like Braden are researching these things and one day may find some answers, only this isnít it-not yet, at least.

You have a point Phil, I can not argue with you on your opinion. The Myers Briggs test has been around for years and has been developed into a very solid test that isloates your tendencies.

You are correct, most people will "act" and move around a sliding scale. Myers Briggs professionals are very clear to point this out. No secrets there.

I also agree with "catagorizing people" that is a danger. As novices will take it to absolutes. Meaning that once your graded a certain type you can never be or act in a different manner. This is the dark side of using the information improperly. However, when used correctly it is excellent material and is very precise. Myers Briggs is about PREFERENCES and TENDENCIES.

I happened to agree with Braden on this one, that is to continue efforts in using this. As I said above, professional football franchises are using it now because they find it to be very valuable especially during draft situations etc. There will always be skeptics about this because it is a soft science and most skeptics will take it the extreme and wirte it off.

When I took the test I had the same feelings, but after I was finsihed with the REAL Myers Briggs test - it was so accurate that it was a bit scary. For example, I am an "I". My test was not so grey, I am a cold blooded "I". Actually I am a cold blooded INTP. My family and friends can tell when I am worn out being around people. I just shut down. The next day is spent with a lot of alone time just to recharge my batteries. However, I can extrovert in tennis. It will look like I am an E by the way I am acting. But after tennis, I need to regroup or recharge with some quite time. That is not to say that E's dont have alone time, it depends how extreme you are - a lot of people are in the middle. However, my preference is to let someone else lead so I can calculate what is happening in the tennis match - I thrive on that.

On decision making my primary "tie breaker" on a tough call (even on easy calls) will always resort to logic. My wife on the other hand is an F (Feeler), she will base her "tiebreaker" on how the decision will effect people. Somtimes she thinks I am so cold blooded and have no empathy. It is not to say I dont consider people in the equation, it does say that I will lean towards logic over the feelings of people. So, I find that true.

You can think what you want but Braden is in my opinion is going somewhere with this. It is an effective tool and has a lot of solid results and will shed insight into a lot of areas within sports. I only say this because I have studied Myers Briggs and know a lot about it.

If you ever get a chance to meet Vic you will find he is a very very intelligent man. In a lot of ways he is ahead of most of our thinking. He doesnt move to something unless he believes it is right on and will be valuable. Most people dont recognize futuristic ideas or visionary ideas.

If you study closely the design of his Coto De Caza tennis college when it was in full bloom, there was definetly tennis intelligence that no one so far has duplicated. Everything was designed with a purpose. I find that very profound.

Phil
03-03-2004, 11:50 PM
BB said:
You have a point Phil, I can not argue with you on your opinion. The Myers Briggs test has been around for years and has been developed into a very solid test that isloates your tendencies.

You are correct, most people will "act" and move around a sliding scale. Myers Briggs professionals are very clear to point this out. No secrets there.

I also agree with "catagorizing people" that is a danger. As novices will take it to absolutes. Meaning that once your graded a certain type you can never be or act in a different manner. This is the dark side of using the information improperly. However, when used correctly it is excellent material and is very precise. Myers Briggs is about PREFERENCES and TENDENCIES.

I happened to agree with Braden on this one, that is to continue efforts in using this. As I said above, professional football franchises are using it now because they find it to be very valuable especially during draft situations etc. There will always be skeptics about this because it is a soft science and most skeptics will take it the extreme and wirte it off.

When I took the test I had the same feelings, but after I was finsihed with the REAL Myers Briggs test - it was so accurate that it was a bit scary. For example, I am an "I". My test was not so grey, I am a cold blooded "I". Actually I am a cold blooded INTP. My family and friends can tell when I am worn out being around people. I just shut down. The next day is spent with a lot of alone time just to recharge my batteries. However, I can extrovert in tennis. It will look like I am an E by the way I am acting. But after tennis, I need to regroup or recharge with some quite time. That is not to say that E's dont have alone time, it depends how extreme you are - a lot of people are in the middle. However, my preference is to let someone else lead so I can calculate what is happening in the tennis match - I thrive on that.

On decision making my primary "tie breaker" on a tough call (even on easy calls) will always resort to logic. My wife on the other hand is an F (Feeler), she will base her "tiebreaker" on how the decision will effect people. Somtimes she thinks I am so cold blooded and have no empathy. It is not to say I dont consider people in the equation, it does say that I will lean towards logic over the feelings of people. So, I find that true.

You can think what you want but Braden is in my opinion is going somewhere with this. It is an effective tool and has a lot of solid results and will shed insight into a lot of areas within sports. I only say this because I have studied Myers Briggs and know a lot about it.

If you ever get a chance to meet Vic you will find he is a very very intelligent man. In a lot of ways he is ahead of most of our thinking. He doesnt move to something unless he believes it is right on and will be valuable. Most people dont recognize futuristic ideas or visionary ideas.

If you study closely the design of his Coto De Caza tennis college when it was in full bloom, there was definetly tennis intelligence that no one so far has duplicated. Everything was designed with a purpose. I find that very profound.

No argument about Vic Braden's intelligence or his intentions in doing what he does-we all NEED people like Braden in our fields-people who think outside the box. That doesn't mean that the results of his research to date are correct. However, as you pointed out, this is "soft science", meaning it has an inherrently large margin for error.

I've read of European countries "typecasting" applicants for schools and jobs, and the nations of the old Communist East Block, and China even today, resort to such standardized personality testing-use of these tests certainly saves a lot of time and work, but in the end, the "odd ball" talent, or the person who doesn't "test well" or tests differently, will get left out or overlooked in the evaluation/selection process-especially in cases where tests are used as decision-making tools. I'm not saying the research is not valid, and I think it should continue if only to try to remove the built-in biases that the tests' advocates still haven't managed to totally eliminate. When standarized personality tests are used for evaluation, it's my natural instinct to think-potential abuse, bias of the testers/test writers, shakey science or faulty conclusions, etc. Must be part of my personality make-up;-)

Funny, I took a similar test for my current job, six years ago, and I was allowed to see the results. I wasn't deemed a potential axe murderer or eccentric-in fact, the results made out to be quite the opposite-a stable, Dilbert-esque engineer type-you know, dull, ultra-logical, passionless, supremely organized, etc. The test also said that I was averse to travel-because it affects my feeling of stability and order. I've visited almost 40 countries and lived in three outside of my home country-wonder what it would be like to actually ENJOY travel!

kevhen
03-04-2004, 07:20 AM
I too am an extrovert on the tennis court, very talkative with lots of friends and am in charge of two hitting groups that meet weekly. But in other aspects of my life I have been an introvert so we all can bend and change depending on the situation, but at least the Briggs tests are taking a stab at understanding the human personality dynamic which does have alot to do with winners and losers in sports and other aspects of life. We can all learn something from it

Bungalo Bill
03-04-2004, 02:08 PM
Phil,

I always find your posts amusing, to the point, and in a lot of ways truthful. Some of them I get a good laugh when you are very direct.

I wont ask you out for a date yet, but I enjoy your posts! :lol: Your a good contributor to this board. I appreciate what you said above and absolutely agree with you. Human nature has its dark side. Its unfortunate that the "dark side" of using good information can be manipulated and used against a person. However, for doubles it can be useful in selecting a partner if one is having a hard time finding the right chemistry for a good communicating doubles team.

Again, just food for thought.

Phil
03-04-2004, 07:22 PM
BB said:

Phil,

I always find your posts amusing, to the point, and in a lot of ways truthful. Some of them I get a good laugh when you are very direct.

I wont ask you out for a date yet, but I enjoy your posts! Your a good contributor to this board. I appreciate what you said above and absolutely agree with you. Human nature has its dark side. Its unfortunate that the "dark side" of using good information can be manipulated and used against a person. However, for doubles it can be useful in selecting a partner if one is having a hard time finding the right chemistry for a good communicating doubles team.

Again, just food for thought.


BB - Such praise at the beginning of a post-I was just waiting for the big BUT...But...it never came, I think. Not to get kissy kissy (and I'm glad you aren't planning to ask me on a date-incompatible brain types), but I also enjoy your posts-it takes skill to communicate in writing, clearly, such detailed subject matter as tennis stroke mechanics, etc.)

As you said, this is doubles we're talking about, not some Commie brainwashing scheme, so I any new information is food for thought.

@wright
03-04-2004, 07:40 PM
Group hug?

Bungalo Bill
03-05-2004, 05:12 PM
thanks @wright, I think it is time for a group hug!