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vin
03-28-2006, 11:14 AM
Has anyone who's dropped down to a tweener from a player's frame had trouble when taking a big cut? Ironically, this is where I did well with a player's frame, but I can't seem to find 5th gear nearly as easy with the tweeners.

All the lower gears seem to be better with the tweener, but I don't know if I can live without 5th! Seems like I need a heavy racket for big swings and a lighter one for everything else. :confused:

bluegrasser
03-28-2006, 11:17 AM
Two things you can do:
1) string it tighter
2)go back to a players frame.

Ripper
03-28-2006, 11:21 AM
Two things you can do:
1) string it tighter
2)go back to a players frame.

3) String it with a low powered string. Poly for example. They're not only for string-breakers.

tennisphotog
03-28-2006, 11:25 AM
I feel your pain. Love the tweener for quick defensive shots, overheads, put-away volleys and serves, but I miss the heft of a players racquet on groundies and touch at the net. is there a holy grail??

vin
03-28-2006, 11:26 AM
Hey bluegrasser,

Ball control is not the problem. It feels like I'm swinging too forcefully for the lower weight of the racket and I end up not getting the pace I'd expect from such a swing.

ohplease
03-28-2006, 11:38 AM
Hey bluegrasser,

Ball control is not the problem. It feels like I'm swinging too forcefully for the lower weight of the racket and I end up not getting the pace I'd expect from such a swing.

It's the price you pay for the lack of mass. You might have overcorrected and moved too far in the tweener direction for your game. Less demanding "player's" frames might suit you better - say 11.5-12 oz, ~97-100 sq. inches - pure storm, fxp rad tour, etc. You can also try shifting you tweener's balance towards more head heavy.

NoBadMojo
03-28-2006, 11:48 AM
Has anyone who's dropped down to a tweener from a player's frame had trouble when taking a big cut? Ironically, this is where I did well with a player's frame, but I can't seem to find 5th gear nearly as easy with the tweeners.

All the lower gears seem to be better with the tweener, but I don't know if I can live without 5th! Seems like I need a heavy racket for big swings and a lighter one for everything else. :confused:

oops....vin answered my q in a subsequent post..nevermind...
Afterthought: as a guess, your problem may be that you are spinning the ball too much when you go for a fifth gear shot..you may wish to flatten those types of balls out, but w.o a qualified person watching you hit, it's very hard to suggest whats' going on.
I've found that I use a variously spinny ralley ball and when I want a '5th gear' type shot out of a tweener (or any frame for that matter), i'll flatten those types of shots out, but i have no idea what your ability to spin the ball is like..sounds like a function of mechanics and mindset rather than a function of gear.

bluegrasser
03-28-2006, 11:48 AM
ohplease might be right, as well as the Storm, there's the O3 White, DNX 9, also my current stick (fxp Prestige mp ) lighter swingweight than the lm version and at 55lbs plenty of pop.

vin
03-28-2006, 11:57 AM
Vin if you describe what you mean by trouble when taking a big cut?

Basically, I'm talking about a ~90% swing when I want to step it up and hit a winner or a forcing shot from the baseline. It feels like there's not enough resistance from the racket. Control is not the problem, but lack of pace. The extra effort doesn't turn into extra pace like it does with a heavier racket. Make sense?

NoBadMojo
03-28-2006, 12:05 PM
Basically, I'm talking about a ~90% swing when I want to step it up and hit a winner or a forcing shot from the baseline. It feels like there's not enough resistance from the racket. Control is not the problem, but lack of pace. The extra effort doesn't turn into extra pace like it does with a heavier racket. Make sense?

aye...scroll back up Vin..i edited my post when i saw you said control wasnt the prob and before i saw you posted this....see if what i said makes sense..it's really tough to pinpoint w.o seeng you hit.

vin
03-28-2006, 12:05 PM
ohplease might be right, as well as the Storm, there's the O3 White, DNX 9, also my current stick (fxp Prestige mp ) lighter swingweight than the lm version and at 55lbs plenty of pop.

I don't know if you caught my other post, but I was hitting really well with the FXP Prestige Mid the other night, and that was totally unexpected and frustrating. I plan to try the MP, but based on my experience with other 12 oz rackets, I question how well I'll be able to play with it, although it does seem to have pretty good pop.

I've been working hard on my fitness, so maybe that will help ..... I hope. For what it's worth, I was trading groundstrokes with a very hard hitting 4.5 better with the Prestige than with my DNX 8. I'm so confused!

vin
03-28-2006, 12:13 PM
Afterthought: as a guess, your problem may be that you are spinning the ball too much when you go for a fifth gear shot..you may wish to flatten those types of balls out.

I hit a ton of spin on my fh. In fact, almost every person I play complains about it. I do know to hit flatter for "5th gear", but even my "flat" shot has spin on it. I think the deal with the heavier rackets is that they make it easier for me to flatten the ball out, but I don't really know what to do with that info. Flattening the ball out doesn't seem like it should be a high priority for racket choice. For now, I'll try hitting flatter with the tweener.


, but w.o a qualified person watching you hit, it's very hard to suggest whats' going on.

I've been to pros in the area and it's safe to say that I study tennis more than they do. :( There's one guy I'd go to, but he doesn't have the time.

Maybe I'll post a video clip for your "qualified" eye. :)

NoBadMojo
03-28-2006, 12:32 PM
Flattening the ball out doesn't seem like it should be a high priority for racket choice.

** It isnt..it's a function of the operator mostly

I've been to pros in the area and it's safe to say that I study tennis more than they do. :( There's one guy I'd go to, but he doesn't have the time.

** That's unfortunate but happens as almost anyone can be a certified teaching pro

Maybe I'll post a video clip for your "qualified" eye.

** Vin, If you're ever down my way you could have the double whammy of Double P training you and me helping you with the mechanical and strategic/mental stuff.


But....i really dont understand how your power level could drop off or not increase by your swinging faster other than you putting more spin on the ball.......

Kaptain Karl
03-28-2006, 12:34 PM
ohplease has it right, IMO.

Vin - I *think* I understand what you have experienced. My Yonex MP (V-Con 17) was smooth and effortless "off the rack" most of the time. (Off the rack it's just over 10oz.) The problem I had was, when I wanted to really *rip* a passing shot ... or force the point from the baseline with a strong cross court drive ... or crush a DTL FH ... it seemed like I was simply asking too much of the racket. (I'm certain I could feel the head "waffling" -- even when I pegged these "go for it" shots right dead center.)

Having nothing to lose, I fiddled around with lead tape -- building the stick up to about 11.8oz and shifting it to approx 3pt HH. (This was a process of trial & error. It took about five hitting sessions before I'd settled on what felt right.)

In hindsight, I probably have the wrong stick in the first place. (Kinda like my ski boots: After all the boot fitting on my Raichles, my Fitter announced I don't have a "Raichle foot;" I have a "Technica foot." He jokes that he turned my Raichles into Technicas....)

Yonex is helping me out with that; they've discontinued my MP. And ohplease has helped me with a set of recommended sticks to try this Summer or Fall. (I hate the demo-ing process. ohplease has given me hope that I can -- abbreviate -- it.)

- KK

Ripper
03-28-2006, 12:47 PM
Hey bluegrasser,

Ball control is not the problem. It feels like I'm swinging too forcefully for the lower weight of the racket and I end up not getting the pace I'd expect from such a swing.

How about some lead tape?

vin
03-28-2006, 01:38 PM
KK, you explained it so much better than I did! The problem I face is that the "smooth and effortless most of the time" results in me playing better tennis. I guess I need to find a compromise and I'd prefer to use a racket that I didn't need to add a significant amount of lead to.

Mojo, thank you for your offer, I appreciate it. I think I may have to find an excuse to get down there so I can take you up on it. :)

I guess I'll work on flattening more and continue experimenting with some different racket weights.

Thanks for all the help guys. Off to the courts!

Ronaldo
03-28-2006, 02:37 PM
I feel your pain. Love the tweener for quick defensive shots, overheads, put-away volleys and serves, but I miss the heft of a players racquet on groundies and touch at the net. is there a holy grail??
Use two racquets, have a CAT 1 for dubs, iPrestige mid for singles, far more satisfying in practice. More effective with the Volkl though

Midlife crisis
03-28-2006, 04:09 PM
Vin,

I'm the infamous dude who uses a granny stick and adds three ounces to it (currently 360 grams). I think that what happens is your mechanics get out of whack when swinging hard with something that light. You've got a lot of time and muscle memory invested in swinging your previous, heavier racquet.

What you'll probably when you weight up your racquet is that you don't need to go as heavy as with your older stick, and that you'll have a much wider range of power that you can access. However, it'll be a bit more difficult at first to make slight variations on power levels. It's like all of a sudden using a car with a gas pedal that moves only half as much but still gives you the entire range of throttle response. The speed control will suffer a little bit at first, but if you have to swing less hard and in more control more of the time, it may not actually be that difficult for you.

NoBadMojo
03-28-2006, 04:58 PM
Vin..i really think you're at the point where you have your game on the threshold of ramping up. Seems like you're getting some less effortful productive juice with your new axe, but just need to work on putaways and short balls and stuff. if you're losing juice by taking bigger swings, seems like you're misshitting or overhitting those types of balls as your power level would ramp up exponentially provided you made flush hit contact. That may be the waffling feeling you and KK are describing. It isnt a result of a lighter frame..its likely the result of mishiting a lighter frame because you dont yet have the timing right when you unload on a ball. a heavier racquet mostly allows you to hit a heavier ball. it doesnt give your more ball speed unless you can swing a heavier frame as fast as you can the tweener.
a good TP can put you through some situational drills simulating the types of shots we are describing and i think you will get it after hitting a volume of balls which would also get your confidence going.
One thing I wouldnt do is keep going back and forth between frames and second guessing yourself and your gear as that will surely jam you up and impede your progress. i've also seen guys get TE and stuff from doing this.

Kaptain Karl
03-28-2006, 06:24 PM
... if you're losing juice by taking bigger swings, seems like you're misshitting or overhitting those types of balls as your power level would ramp up exponentially provided you made flush hit contact. That may be the waffling feeling you and KK are describing. It isnt a result of a lighter frame..its likely the result of mishiting a lighter frame because you dont yet have the timing right when you unload on a ball.This is a curious statement for me. (I'm no Racket Tech, by any means, so I don't claim to know these specifics....) Why did tweaking my frame with lead make the waffling go away? Why did the extra -- intentionally located -- weight "suddenly" make my confidence in the "go for it" shots back to a normal level? Was it because the lead altered my ... timing? (Allowing that this is certainly possible.)

One thing I wouldnt do is keep going back and forth between frames and second guessing yourself and your gear as that will surely jam you up and impede your progress.I really agree with this. I cannot fathom why people carry as many as three (significantly) different sticks in their bag. And they switch them around for no apparent reason, in the same set.

- KK

vin
03-28-2006, 06:27 PM
Thanks for the encouragement Mojo, I am going to do my best to make this frame work. I "unloaded" on a few forehands during doubles tonight and got good power, but it still didn't feel right. I'll keep working on it.

Did you play any matches with your DNX 8 when you were trying it out? If so, did it not feel so great against hard shots? I'm feeling noticable shock against big hitters and I really don't like it! Other than the "unloading" thing, this is the only other notable problem I'm having. Not only does it not feel good, but I'm worried about my arm. Sure, a lot of these jarring hits are off centered, but that's bound to happen when going after big shots that are hard to get at. Against moderate hitters and pushers, the comfort is fine. I may finally bite the bullet and try the Klip Armour but the string I'm using now is not stiff (tournament nylon).

Midlife,

Yeah, how can I forget the 13 oz granny stick! You're right that my muscle memory is tuned to the heavy sticks because that's all I've ever played with. But I play better with the lighet 11 oz stick, so I think it makes sense to see it through and not add any weight just yet. If the problems above don't get resolved, I'll try adding some lead.

KK,

If you're still listening, how did you go about figuring out how much lead to add and where?

Kaptain Karl
03-28-2006, 06:54 PM
vin - I was nervous about adding lead ... until someone on TT pointed out, "It peels off very easily if you don't like it."

I added most at the base of the hoop, wanting "fairly neutral" balance but more weight. (A few alterations and I settled on two layers from about 4:30-7:30.)

I just added a little at the top of the grip. (No. Not under it or inside it like many do.)

The additions on the top of the hoop were the most dramatic, with lots of trial and error. (I started with about four inches centered at 9 & 3. Several changes and I'm using it from about 9:00-to-11:00 and 1:00-to-3:00.)

(Keep notes on what you do. I undid -- the re-did -- some of the lead, based on feel / response / progress, etc.)

- KK

monologuist
03-28-2006, 07:04 PM
I think I know what you mean Vin. I have this same problem with lighter frames...

-hitting in that "5th" gear, with a 12 oz. racquet, my timing is right on...I rarely swing too early, as I have a pretty full and fast swing...if anything I will be late.
-obviously with a tweener, if you swing it with the same exertion as you would in 5th gear for a 12 oz. racquet, your swing is going to be faster and harder to time, and if you're like me, you might get more mishits or hit with too much spin as you subconsciously try to compensate for swinging too early...getting less power.

I agree that the lower gears are easier to control with a tweener...but ironically b/c of how fast a light frame swings, timing on those 5th gear shots is actually trickier for me than with a heavier frame....the only thing I know you can do is just compensate by swinging later or try not swinging as hard...the power of a tweener will be high enough that you should be able to put balls away without swinging as hard as with that Prestige...in other words, with tweeners, it pays to take more measured, slower swings.

Problem is that for many of us, it's not exactly as satisfying to not be able to take a full rip at the ball when going for winners...also when playing against good players who hit hard and can take time away from you, you don't have as much time to "measure" your swings and your footwork as well and it for me, personally, I find that my control suffers when I use a tweener against hard hitters..not to mention that the ball is coming at you fast already; the pace of the ball on your return shot may multiply.

Anyway, you could try adding lead tape to the head to slow down your swing, but this will add some more power, so you'd probably have to compensate by using a lower-powered string or tighter tension...it's a tough balance to strike...there are no free lunches; tweeners are easier to play with on shots that do not require fast swing speeds, and on shots where you are already out of position...heavier frames are easier to control on putaway shots and volleys and slices...the route I chose to pursue was heavy, low-powered frame with high powered string at low tension.

NoBadMojo
03-28-2006, 07:14 PM
This is a curious statement for me. (I'm no Racket Tech, by any means, so I don't claim to know these specifics....) Why did tweaking my frame with lead make the waffling go away? Why did the extra -- intentionally located -- weight "suddenly" make my confidence in the "go for it" shots back to a normal level? Was it because the lead altered my ... timing? (Allowing that this is certainly possible.)

- KK

KK I was commenting more about Vin and impossible to say for sure, but yes, the weight you added could have returned your timing back to your comfort level. It likely slowed your swing down to a more controlled precise level and you were no longer misshitting and MAYBE were timing the ball better because it swang/swung more like what you were accustomed to? i dunno. The better racquets wouldnt waffle on someone if they flush hit them even if they are light. I think a lot of people (not you) declare racquets as crap, unstable, too light, etc when it merely is just a case of them either not knowing how to make them work or not allowing themselves the time to adjust to them. I know modern racquets far exceed my ability to use them.

Vin, I did at least play tiebreakers and games with the DNX8 bat and if i dwelled on the baseline i would be using it instead of the DNX9. I had no trouble loading up on the ball with this bat and eating my own ball fuzz...i think that's what the frame does as it got a bit more weight in the head than the DNX9..I think Volkl did a really good job at tweaking the layups on both the DNX8 and 9. I am happlity playing mine stock and still learning how to use them to the best of my abilities, but maybe I had an advantage over you as bot the DNX8 and 9 fall nto my target swingweight range

alb1
03-28-2006, 08:13 PM
When I began trying to use sub 12 oz rackets I had a similar experience as Vin. Rackets around 11- 11.3 oz felt great when hitting with people who didn't hit the ball hard or when feeding balls for coaching. But in competive play they just did not feel like there was any stick behind the ball on the big swings. I did find some exceptions to this and currently use a 100 Sq in 11.7 oz racket. I also played well with some 11.3 oz 95 sq in frames. The other frames actually had higher power ratings but that is not what I experienced. My past conditioned what I expected and I wasn't happy till I found something that met my expectations. Others I know who have played longer than I, have picked up a tweener and adjusted quickly to the stiffer lighterweight frames. They don't seem to be bothered by the differences. So I guess some just adapt easier than others.

walkman
03-28-2006, 10:20 PM
I also had a similar experience while demo'ing rackets. I was hitting with a hybrid hornet that felt great with the acceleration on volleys and overheads, and it had a lot of good spin forehands. But when I really tried to "crank" the ball it felt like everything went to mush and the ball didn't really go any faster. Sometimes I could tell that my timing was off, but it never seemed to go faster when my timing felt right.

With heavier rackets like the n6.1, DNX 10 and even the O-tour power shots felt like power shots.

It made me wonder if the tweener rackets were deflecting on a really strong stroke and not transferring the power to the ball.

bcaz
03-28-2006, 10:59 PM
Vin, I sympathize -- You're a lot younger than me, so you may be able to migrate back up toward 12 oz. Hell, if I weren't serving so well right now, I'd be tempted to load up myself. I have tried lead and I'm not crazy about it, but I learned a little lead goes a long way. Don't just think about the static weight and balance changes you're introducing. Think small ... it may be that 3-6 grams, 01.-0.2 oz. -- in the right location -- is all you need. And, it peels off! I know you break strings, so the expense and inconvience can be a factor, but consider nat gut in a 16g or the lower-priced Bab Tonic Ball Feel or the BDE Rallye, which run a little thicker and are more durable. The Klip Armour Pro is more expensive (I haven't tried it yet, but I endorse Ball Feel and Rallye) but may be more durable than the rest of the Klip line, which BTW is excellent string.

BreakPoint
03-28-2006, 11:28 PM
Basically, I'm talking about a ~90% swing when I want to step it up and hit a winner or a forcing shot from the baseline. It feels like there's not enough resistance from the racket. Control is not the problem, but lack of pace. The extra effort doesn't turn into extra pace like it does with a heavier racket. Make sense?

vin,
As ohplease said, I think you're finding out there really is no substitute for mass. I know I've said this a thousand times but you really can't cheat the laws of physics. It all comes down to collisions and the conservation of momentum.

There's a reason why in boxing and in wrestling they classify competitors by weight and not by strength, how hard they can hit, how tall they are, how long their limbs are or by how much muscles or flexibility they have.

It's also why the pros love lead tape. :D

paulfreda
03-29-2006, 03:43 AM
Great thread here !!

One suggestion.
I assume you went to the tweener to get more power with less effort.
Another way to accomplish this is to lower the tension in your players frame. It will feel different for a while but you'll get used to it. I did.
Just a thought.

ohplease
03-29-2006, 05:59 AM
Actually, reading vin's comments about why he likes his DNX 8, mass probably isn't the answer in his case.

Vin, before you do anything else, add 2 grams to 3&9 for 4 grams total. As it is right now, the stock DNX 8 has a swingweight at the low end of the normal range. 4 grams up there will bring the swingweight up about 10 units, give or take, bringing the values into average range.

In fact, there's an argument to be made that rackets in that class play well even w/swingweights as high in the mid 330's. Remember, maneuverability is a combination of both moment (effectively static weight) and swingweight - one for which we currently have no adequate numerical measure. This is why very light, high swingweight, head heavy rackets like the prince bandit or lm 5 can be perceived to be very, very maneuverable. Tweeners give you lower moment by definition, but they can go either way in terms of swingweight.

The DNX 8 cuts mass, but it also cuts swingweight, when in reality it probably needs to add some to compensate. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you added 5 grams to 3&9 for 10 grams total and it played even better "in 5th gear" than 4.

rocket
03-29-2006, 07:09 AM
Did you play any matches with your DNX 8 when you were trying it out? If so, did it not feel so great against hard shots? I'm feeling noticable shock against big hitters and I really don't like it! Other than the "unloading" thing, this is the only other notable problem I'm having. Not only does it not feel good, but I'm worried about my arm. Sure, a lot of these jarring hits are off centered, but that's bound to happen when going after big shots that are hard to get at. Against moderate hitters and pushers, the comfort is fine. I may finally bite the bullet and try the Klip Armour but the string I'm using now is not stiff (tournament nylon).

With a stiffness index of 69, you certainly will feel the shock when dealing with a heavier ball. There's no secret that one has to counter weight with weight. You can achieve it by swinging a lot faster, which might mess up your timing & ball-contact, or add weight to your stick. The DNX8 being at 4 pts HL, you can perhaps add weight to the handle & bring the balance up to 7-8 pts HL (player's sticks have that balance) & see how it feels when you 'smoke' the ball. Keep the static weight under 12oz so to spare your shoulder.

If you don't like the idea of tweaking your stick, then demo & buy another one. Your stick has to suit your playing-style, not the other way around. Your tennis, and arm, shouldn't suffer because of a certain stick. :cool:

NoBadMojo
03-29-2006, 07:28 AM
Lead shmed......it's not abut the lead..it's about the racquet operator. It's not that Vin's racquet in stock form isnt capable of smokin' the ball, it's that Vin hasnt figured out how to do it yet. People should concentrate on their stroke production rather than worry about how much lead to put where. Adding lead has tradeoffs as well....while obviously it may slow down your swing speed so that it MAY help you on those certain shots it ..well......errrrrr...slows your swing down which will have drawbacks in other areas. If people really need a heavier frame they should just buy a heavier frame and not buy a tweener and then lead it up in an effort to make it play like the frame before.
Until people get up to the 4.5's or so, i feel they should be concerned about their stroke production and not worry at all about where to put 3 grams of lead or whatever
Some manufactrers take great care in tweaking their layups to get them playing great in stock form. These days it s even easier to find racquets to play without resorting to lead since people are using lighter frames these days.

Bolt
03-29-2006, 07:53 AM
Lead shmed......it's not abut the lead..it's about the racquet operator. It's not that Vin's racquet in stock form isnt capable of smokin' the ball, it's that Vin hasnt figured out how to do it yet. People should concentrate on their stroke production rather than worry about how much lead to put where. Adding lead has tradeoffs as well....while obviously it may slow down your swing speed so that it MAY help you on those certain shots it ..well......errrrrr...slows your swing down which will have drawbacks in other areas. If people really need a heavier frame they should just buy a heavier frame and not buy a tweener and then lead it up in an effort to make it play like the frame before.
Until people get up to the 4.5's or so, i feel they should be concerned about their stroke production and not worry at all about where to put 3 grams of lead or whatever
I managed to do ok never having leaded up a frame in all my many years of tennis. In fact, the only frame i ever modified that was a reg frame <other than slapping leather on> were my t10's and I removed weight from them.
Some manufactrers take great care in tweaking their layups to get them playing great in stock form. These days it s even easier to find racquets to play without resorting to lead since people are using lighter frames these days.

I think he should add lead.

Kaptain Karl
03-29-2006, 08:13 AM
Lead shmed.... <snip> If people really need a heavier frame they should just buy a heavier frame and not buy a tweener and then lead it up in an effort to make it play like the frame before.I can't remember if it was a Wilson or a Head Rep who told me today's manufacturers design their Tweeners & Up with the reality of personal modification in mind. It sounded good to me at the time, but I have only one Rep's word to go on with that statement....

Until people get up to the 4.5's or so, i feel they should be concerned about their stroke production and not worry at all about where to put 3 grams of lead or whatever....So long as you keep the "or so" in mind, I agree. (I'd say many 4.0s could benefit from tweaking their sticks ... instead of spending *hundreds* for their "New Holy Grail" and then doing so again four months later.)

- KK

vin
03-29-2006, 08:17 AM
So many different ideas and perspectives ... thank you, I'm happy I posted this question!

I've been on court with big and strong 4.5 players who could clearly handle a heavy frame, but they use a 10 oz'er and can absolutely crush the ball with it, so Mojo's point about "operator error" sounds right.

Either way, with all the ideas presented here, I'm confident I'll find my way around the problem. Now my worries have migrated more towards the impact shock I mentioned half way through the thread. I hope nat gut will take care of it, but if not, I guess it's either lead or a new stick.

I have some Klip Armour and Bab Tonic on the way and am going to string up some RIP Control for tonight.

bluegrasser
03-29-2006, 08:25 AM
Vin, what I do when testing different sticks is to bring both racquets and play a set each with one, maybe do it twice. I'd bring a 12 oz ( head light, at least 7 points) and your Volkl, or maybe just hit an hour each with a good player, and try all the shots.

ohplease
03-29-2006, 08:34 AM
So many different ideas and perspectives ... thank you, I'm happy I posted this question!

I've been on court with big and strong 4.5 players who could clearly handle a heavy frame, but they use a 10 oz'er and can absolutely crush the ball with it, so Mojo's point about "operator error" sounds right.

Either way, with all the ideas presented here, I'm confident I'll find my way around the problem. Now my worries have migrated more towards the impact shock I mentioned half way through the thread. I hope nat gut will take care of it, but if not, I guess it's either lead or a new stick.

I have some Klip Armour and Bab Tonic on the way and am going to string up some RIP Control for tonight.

Impact shock is a whole 'nother kettle. There is no free lunch here, you can increase mobility by cutting down mass, but that means either less recoil weight (essentially resistance to shock) or less mass on the ball, or both. You can compensate the power shortage by upping the stiffness (and shock) or tipping the balance towards head heavy - and you'll notice that's exactly what manufacturers do w/rackets in this space.

If you're dissatisfied with the level of impact shock and the lack of plow through, then to my mind that clearly means you're using the wrong kind of racket. There are softer competitors, like the Head Instinct, but I think you'd be much, much happier with something in either of the two spaces you skipped over in between the volkl mid and the volkl tweener - as represented by the rad tour and pure storm I mentioned earlier. More massive, but not too much, not overdosed w/stiffness, easy swinging, bigger headsizes. Volkl tends to do this kind of racket badly (see the traditionally lackluster 9 series), so definitely pay attention to other vendors, here.

NoBadMojo
03-29-2006, 08:37 AM
I can't remember if it was a Wilson or a Head Rep who told me today's manufacturers design their Tweeners & Up with the reality of personal modification in mind. It sounded good to me at the time, but I have only one Rep's word to go on with that statement....

So long as you keep the "or so" in mind, I agree. (I'd say many 4.0s could benefit from tweaking their sticks ... instead of spending *hundreds* for their "New Holy Grail" and then doing so again four months later.)

- KK

Just because people modify frames with lead doesnt mean it is the right thing for them to do..it merely means they do it, and it often serves as another source of confusion as evidenced by all the lead tape posts on this forum. Do you also really believe that Wilson is nano Coding their frames? I would bet the Wilson reps say that as well. Yonex has fake lead put on some of their frames. Some Babolats have locations marked for adding lead..it's just marketing..people should be more concerned about learning how to use what they have rather than trying to adapt the racquet to the player as at the 4.0 level or whatever, their strokes arent finely honed anyway and are dynamic...so the lead may feel great one time and suck the next..lead on..lead off...wax on.....wax off Mr Miagi ;O
I think most 4.0's would most benefit by tweaking their strokes rather than tweaking their sticks. I say buy something reasonable and learn how to use it

Vin re the ArmourPro. Gentle prestretch only and it is slightly less powerful than most other guts strings i have found. Stuff is terrific for me...

rocket
03-29-2006, 09:25 AM
.people should be more concerned about learning how to use what they have rather than trying to adapt the racquet to the player

Doesn't this statement go against your philosophy though? Didn't you often complain that some players use a stick that doesn't match their skillset? If we really want to talk about learning to play good tennis then perhaps one should use a regular weight, straight-up stick that'll give direct feedback, as opposed to the super-light, super-powerful, super-forgiving piece of gimmick that gives the player the wrong impression that he/she is playing good tennis. Many modern racquets are designed for ppl to win easy points with less & less skills & efforts IMO.

Just a point of discussion, not picking on you or anything like that. :D

NoBadMojo
03-29-2006, 09:31 AM
Doesn't this statement go against your philosophy though? Didn't you often complain that some players use a stick that doesn't match their skillset? If we really want to talk about learning to play good tennis then perhaps one should use a regular weight, straight-up stick that'll give direct feedback, as opposed to the super-light, super-powerful, super-forgiving piece of gimmick that gives the player the wrong impression that he/she is playing good tennis. Many modern racquets are designed for ppl to win easy points with less & less skills & efforts IMO.

Just a point of discussion, not picking on you or anything like that. :D

no..not at all...i think i clarify most everytime with the proviso 'provided they are using something reasonable' and not something too demanding for ther skillset.

BreakPoint
03-29-2006, 10:39 AM
Actually, reading vin's comments about why he likes his DNX 8, mass probably isn't the answer in his case.

Vin, before you do anything else, add 2 grams to 3&9 for 4 grams total. As it is right now, the stock DNX 8 has a swingweight at the low end of the normal range. 4 grams up there will bring the swingweight up about 10 units, give or take, bringing the values into average range.

In fact, there's an argument to be made that rackets in that class play well even w/swingweights as high in the mid 330's. Remember, maneuverability is a combination of both moment (effectively static weight) and swingweight - one for which we currently have no adequate numerical measure. This is why very light, high swingweight, head heavy rackets like the prince bandit or lm 5 can be perceived to be very, very maneuverable. Tweeners give you lower moment by definition, but they can go either way in terms of swingweight.

The DNX 8 cuts mass, but it also cuts swingweight, when in reality it probably needs to add some to compensate. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you added 5 grams to 3&9 for 10 grams total and it played even better "in 5th gear" than 4.

Huh? Aren't you contradicting yourself a little here? If mass is not the answer, then why are you telling vin to add lead tape? :confused: Adding lead tape anywhere on the frame will obviously increase its mass, right?

BreakPoint
03-29-2006, 10:46 AM
Lead shmed......it's not abut the lead..it's about the racquet operator. It's not that Vin's racquet in stock form isnt capable of smokin' the ball, it's that Vin hasnt figured out how to do it yet. People should concentrate on their stroke production rather than worry about how much lead to put where.

If it's always about the racquet operator and not about the racquet, then why do the pros, or anyone else for that matter, add lead? I mean shouldn't the pros also just figure out how to use their racquets in stock form, too? :confused:

And if it's about the operator and not the racquet, then why is it that when it comes to midsize racquets, it's the other way around, i.e., it's the racquet and not the operator in your opinion?

marcl65
03-29-2006, 11:21 AM
Huh? Aren't you contradicting yourself a little here? If mass is not the answer, then why are you telling vin to add lead tape? :confused: Adding lead tape anywhere on the frame will obviously increase its mass, right?
From what I remember of physics, it won't. Mass remains constant, whether you are 1 mile below sea level or 100 miles above the Earth. An object's weight is based on its mass and gravity. Adding lead tape changes the racquet's weight but has an insignificant effect on it's mass (if you look at the tape and racquet as a whole).

BreakPoint
03-29-2006, 11:37 AM
From what I remember of physics, it won't. Mass remains constant, whether you are 1 mile below sea level or 100 miles above the Earth. An object's weight is based on its mass and gravity. Adding lead tape changes the racquet's weight but has an insignificant effect on it's mass (if you look at the tape and racquet as a whole).

I think you better go back and review your Science 101 book unless, of course, you've figured out a way to change the gravitational force of the earth by adding lead tape to a tennis racquet. ;) LOL :mrgreen:

As long as you're on Earth, adding mass = adding weight.

louis netman
03-29-2006, 11:52 AM
I think you better go back and review your Science 101 book unless, of course, you've figured out a way to change the gravitational force of the earth by adding lead tape to a tennis racquet. ;) LOL :mrgreen:

As long as you're on Earth, adding mass = adding weight.

Lead tape, mass...huh? Mass is big muscles like mine, not like girly men... ;-)

marcl65
03-29-2006, 12:06 PM
As long as you're on Earth, adding mass = adding weight.

http://www.racquetresearch.com/
The Effect of Mass and of Swingweight

More mass is definitely better. More swingweight (moment of inertia) is also definitely better. The touring pros, in customizing their racquets, add mass and increase swingweight, because they know from personal experience what really works. Their customized racquets bite on the ball more, so they are able to generate heavy spin on their forehands and serves. Pete Sampras' heavily customized Wilson Pro Staff 85 (a modification of the legendary St. Vincent ProStaff, which is no longer in production) weighs 14 ounces, about the same as the old woodies, but much heavier than the heaviest racquets marketed to the public these days.






I do need to dig out that Physics book. :(

BreakPoint
03-29-2006, 12:32 PM
It's been a while ;). But the point I was trying to make is that with the tape, you're adding an amount of weight that is not proportional to the amount of mass you add to the overall racquet.

Then again, maybe I do need to dig out that Physics book. :(

You were right before that weight = mass x gravity, but since you're still on Earth before and after you've added lead tape to your racquet, adding mass is the same as adding weight and vise versa since the gravity part of that equation remains the same.

When we talk about mass in terms of tennis racquets, we are referring to its static weight (as opposed to swingweight), so when we add lead tape, we are increasing both the racquet's mass AND its weight (again, since gravity remains the same).

tennissavy
03-29-2006, 06:51 PM
Has anyone who's dropped down to a tweener from a player's frame had trouble when taking a big cut? Ironically, this is where I did well with a player's frame, but I can't seem to find 5th gear nearly as easy with the tweeners.

All the lower gears seem to be better with the tweener, but I don't know if I can live without 5th! Seems like I need a heavy racket for big swings and a lighter one for everything else. :confused:
Vin, you should try some minor customization of your racquet with the instructions on this TW site. You will most likely be able to modify your racquet through the addition of weight, either on the head or in the handle or both. Be patient and experiment with the location of the weight you add. It will take some time but you will be able use your "5th gear" eventually.:)