Cure for the wristy stroke ??

[floran ivanisevic]

A lot of junior here in Japan are trying to put so much spin from the hand that they end up using only wrist away from the body...
The ball is weak and they have no control with this soft wrist and loose arm ending up hitting in the net or way out...
Bob Brett who coaches here emphazises on hitting through the line of 5 balls, on holding and lifting the ball at impact...on sticking the elbow in...but some of the juniors don't get this image and still wrist it at impact, lifting the elbow to soon, covering with the hand to soon, just no control and no leverage...Federer and Courrier do wrist their stroke, but after extending the arm...

I thought maybe it was not the hitting through the ball that was the key, nor the glued elbow to the body before the hit, but emphasizing hitting leading FROM the elbow instead of the hand.
Because they always lead with the hand, and snap the wrist just after contact, or hit with the elbow too far from the body core, and therefore loose control and power, while if you were leading with the elbow into the ball( Courrier or Stefi Graff ) or the shoulder ( Nadal, Federer ) they might get the correct impact point, the correct wrist snap after the push and hold, and the correct wiper swing after extending the arm..and the elbow would automatically be crunched into the body...

What do you guys think ? I just can not find a theory for those kids...
BB any theory ?

[Marius_Hancu]

yes, but also:

check my advice here and use it, or else ...

Pain in the hand, rather than the wrist?
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=91048

The wrist brace might help.

The major change you need is probably in the technique (check the
links in the above). I suspect an exagerated topspin technique and
stiff and harsh racquet and/or strings.

Wrist Tendonitis: form, grip, & braces Questions
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=94582

[Mountainman]

A lot of junior here in Japan are trying to put so much spin from the hand that they end up using only wrist away from the body...
The ball is weak and they have no control with this soft wrist and loose arm ending up hitting in the net or way out...
Bob Brett who coaches here emphazises on hitting through the line of 5 balls, on holding and lifting the ball at impact...on sticking the elbow in...but some of the juniors don't get this image and still wrist it at impact, lifting the elbow to soon, covering with the hand to soon, just no control and no leverage...Federer and Courrier do wrist their stroke, but after extending the arm...

I thought maybe it was not the hitting through the ball that was the key, nor the glued elbow to the body before the hit, but emphasizing hitting leading FROM the elbow instead of the hand.
Because they always lead with the hand, and snap the wrist just after contact, or hit with the elbow too far from the body core, and therefore loose control and power, while if you were leading with the elbow into the ball( Courrier or Stefi Graff ) or the shoulder ( Nadal, Federer ) they might get the correct impact point, the correct wrist snap after the push and hold, and the correct wiper swing after extending the arm..and the elbow would automatically be crunched into the body...

What do you guys think ? I just can not find a theory for those kids...
BB any theory ?

Have you try making them hit the ball with another ball tucked between their arm and body?

Have you try making them hit with the wall? Wristing usually does not work with the wall because wall practice requires power control and stroke control.

Since you taught not to do wristing, you got to break their habits. They should know not to wrist the ball. It is the matter of habit. Good luck!

[floran ivanisevic]

Thanks Marius !
Actually the Japanese kids have a low tension 55 and less and very light yonex rackets so I don't think it's the stiff and harsh racquet strings...
While for the exagerated topspin swing I like your quote there

>You're very probably too wristy for your own good; block the wrist for the >time being and see the effect; don't drop the racquethead to scoop the
>ball, but flex your knees

I know they have to use more knee for topspin and that it will limit the use of the wrist automatically, this is a very good and simple advice that I tend to forget, but Courier and Kuznetsova always mention it.

Then there is still the floating elbow and loose wrist problem and I agree the Wiper is not the only solution as it can cause health damage unless you have a wrist flexibility like Coria, but then what is it... stiking the elbow crunched into the body is not even true this days as Federer and Nadal hit with complete straight arms with some space between elbow and bodyside, that's why I thought about hitting leading from the elbow...as an image...
it would prevent a loose arm and wrist, and create automatically leverage and forward impact and hold...

[floran ivanisevic]

Thanks Mountainman...the wall is a very good teacher indeed...
And they are not good at the wall so it's a sign...
As far as the ball tucked into the arm pit ( between the arm and body ) , it is what Bob Brett recommanded, it works sometimes but it's not all, cause they would hit solid but then immediatly after wrist it with no extension of the arm, so a 50% cure...
And watch Federer and Nadal , they have more than 5balls space between the arm and body nowadays, so it musn't be the only key to control...

[floran ivanisevic]

Another thing is a lot of them have a hammer grip, meaning not having the thumb sticked to the bottom three fingers, but up on the handle appart ...
It's a definitive lack of support in the hand an causes an over wrist use...but I think you can still manage to hit clean and with time I came to think that it's not the main problem in the wristy stroke...

[Mountainman]

Another thing is a lot of them have a hammer grip, meaning not having the thumb sticked to the bottom three fingers, but up on the handle appart ...
It's a definitive lack of support in the hand an causes an over wrist use...but I think you can still manage to hit clean and with time I came to think that it's not the main problem in the wristy stroke...

Sounds like another bad habit to me. Definitely, definitely get them off the hammer grip if they want to keep their thumb. First thing is teach them the V grip. The thumb can be on the index finger or to the bottom three fingers. Second, for the next one or two days, if they still use the hammer grip, punish the students. Make them obey the sensei or seipai.

[gripking2]

hmmm...another hammer grip case...sounds difficult to cure a kid above 14 years old who has played all his life with a hammer grip...
My coach down in Rancho Mirage would tie the guys' thumb with Fedex tape to the bottom 3fingers and index together to feel the difference...
but eventually an old kid or an adult would go back to his old hammer grip...
How to change a guy whith a hammer grip habit...that's a good new discussion...
But is the hammer grip a problem because of thumb injury Mountainman, I don't hear about hammer injuries, but I guess you definitely get less wrist support, and on volleys and stroke the wrist just goes "swooshhh" under the ball...

[louis netman]

Get a good quality wrist brace, pull it 1/2" closer to the palm of your hand and tighten it to the max (if you begin notice gangrene, loosen it up slightly).

[papa]

Look, the hammer grip is going to do nothing but get everyone in a lot of trouble - good for a volley, serve, overheads, running vollies and some running forehand shots but not good for forehand groundstrokes from around the baseline.

Without getting into any complicated terms, lay the racquet face down on the court then pick it up with your hitting hand -- kinda like a frying pan. Get your non-hitting hand on the throat of the racquet so you can see/feel this grip. Hit some balls fed at a fairly low speed and aim a few feet over the net. After you hit twenty or thirty balls, adjuct the grip oneway or the other to see what feels the best. Don't jump too soon away from this grip because it does take some trial and error to get it right.

One of the main reasons players get in the bad habit of using the hammer type grip is because they want to take the ball "later" so you'll have to adjust to taking it more to the front. You'll get it, it isn't space age type stuff.

[Mountainman]

Hammer grip won't develop any thumb injuries. If the students are using semi-western to full western grip, the force of impact would put pressure on the thumb because the thumb is countering that force by placing parallel to the handle. If you hold your racquet with hammer grip with semi W to W-grip, more pressure will be on the thumb than the palm. But, I've never heard any thumb injuries. Anyone heard of tennis thumb?

[floran ivanisevic]

Nice Papa !!
I like your
"One of the main reasons players get in the bad habit of using the hammer type grip is because they want to take the ball "later" so you'll have to adjust to taking it more to the front".
I think it's so true, that's why you end trying to put your thumb up or somehow behind the grip with your index to get more support on later contact point and it screws everything up...
While if you take it in front you just need the index as a support...
I will fight this hammer grip all the way !

[TennisAsAlways]

Mr Ivanisevic, one way in ridding that bad habit of using a hammer grip would be to have them (your students) point the base knuckle of their index finger downwards. Have them grip it loosely and twirl the racquet around, back into position so that the base knuckle of their index finger is aligned with the appropriate bevel. That "twirl" should help the fingers to "self-adjust" to the new grip position. For example, say you had a righty with a full Western grip. In the ready position, that righty's base knuckle would be pointing down towards the ground, therefore the ball contact face of his racquet would be facing to the left of his side (The palm of his racquet hand would face upwards towards the sky).

A lot of pros grip the handle that way. If you watch slow-motion clips of their FHs then you may notice what I am referring to. Positioning the racquet in that way seems to naturally force the fingers to realign themselves for comfort and support, usually resulting in a non-hammer grip.

If you notice Roger Federer's FHs (At least from what I've noticed, it seems to be the case for most of his FHs) then you may see that he does just what I have described when he is lining up and preparing his FH strokes. The ball contact face of the frame faces slightly slanted downwards towards his left side (It faces "slightly", since his FHs are primarily "Semi"-Western FHs rather than Full Westerns). On the takeback, he pronates slightly and then just prior and during the initiation of the forward swing he supinates. During the forward swing, ball contact, and after contact, he pronates.

Just try out what I have described. You might see what I mean, how it seems to position your grip into the V-grip almost automatically. Not only is that a benefit, but if one were able to execute all the other things that I have described (It takes practice to have everything synchronized of course), the pronate-supinate-pronate motion, then shots will be very "explosive" with all of that elastic energy coming into play!

Good day now. 8)

[TennisAsAlways]

Note how his base knuckle points downwards:

http://x11.putfile.com/4/10713031681.gif

[floran ivanisevic]

Thank you tennis as Always !
Yes I know this way of preparing the racquet is better thant a Sharapova or Jim Courier forehand cocked wrist racquet face facing forward preparation, your fingers align properly from the beginning as you mentioned.
I will focus on that again ! Thank You !
Nevertheless usually the hammer grip finger change doesn't occur from the beginning, it is at contact that the thumb just goes up and doesn't want to stay sticked to the bottom 3 fingers...
Which is as Papa said , maybe a later contact point phenomenon that forces the hand to put the thumb up for support because of intuitive insecurity...