Need to Punish Indonesia!!!

[MLoutch]

Indonesia is refusing to play a Fed Cup series in Israel in July and wants the women's tennis matches switched to a neutral country.

Indonesia is home to about 190 million Muslims, has no diplomatic relations with Israel and has long supported Palestinian independence.

SAD SAD SAD!!!! this is the kind of garbage that needs to stay out of sports.
lets hope the request is denied and they are made to forfeit the series and the team banned.

[Fee]

Oh please, Dubai hosts a Men's and Women's tournament despite the fact that players who carry an Israeli passport (Noam Okun, Anna Smashnova) aren't allowed in the country to play there. Nothing will happen to Indonesia, the ATP/ITF/WTA have no cajones on matters like these.

[Ripper]

Oh please, Dubai hosts a Men's and Women's tournament despite the fact that players who carry an Israeli passport (Noam Okun, Anna Smashnova) aren't allowed in the country to play there. Nothing will happen to Indonesia, the ATP/ITF/WTA have no cajones on matters like these.

"Need to punish Indonesia"

Reminds me of the Republican Presidents thread, lol!!!

[diegaa]

Nothing will happen to Indonesia, the ATP/ITF/WTA have no cajones on matters like these.

I agree 100%.
BTW, its COJONES. "Cajones" means drawers.

[Fee]

thanks. I studied French in high school. :)

[Mahboob Khan]

Indonesia is refusing to play a Fed Cup series in Israel in July and wants the women's tennis matches switched to a neutral country.

Indonesia is home to about 190 million Muslims, has no diplomatic relations with Israel and has long supported Palestinian independence.

SAD SAD SAD!!!! this is the kind of garbage that needs to stay out of sports.
lets hope the request is denied and they are made to forfeit the series and the team banned.

Well, that's the typical Jewish mentality we have been reading about in our Book Al-Qura'an. You like to punish nations and to this end occupied Palestinian land by force. All efforts by the international community (UN) to find a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian conflict, have failed because you do not listen to any one. You have also blackmailed USA to support your unjust cause blindly; you control their media, economy, Senate, Congress, etc. It's because of your insinuations and wrong advice from within that the USA is in a quagmire in Iraq, Afghanistan, and now about to further stuck in Iran because you like to have your nukes but do not like any other nation to have them! We read in our Scripture that when Moses ordered the "Children of Israel" to attack and liberate the nearby "promised" land, they responded, "You and your God should go and fight, we are sitting here because the Ruler of that land is quite powerful". You refused to listen and follow the commands of your Messengers and Prophets. In fact, you killed many of them including Jesus Christ because their teachings conflict with your hidden designs. That's why God punished you and you lost whatever rights you had to go back to that "promised land". Yes, it was promised, but you defied the commands of the Messenger of the time and that of Lord Himself, and thus forfeited any right to claim it. The devine line that you were supposed to follow .. the children of Israel were supposed to follow .. was followed by Essa son of Meryyam (Jesus Christ), and Muhammad (peace be upon him), and take note that we are Muslims (have surrendered to the will and commands of God). Sir, you reap what you sow!

[diegaa]

Well, that's the typical Jewish mentality we have been reading about in our Book Al-Qura'an. You like to punish nations and to this end occupied Palestinian land by force. All efforts by the international community (UN) to find a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian conflict, have failed because you do not listen to any one. You have also blackmailed USA to support your unjust cause blindly; you control their media, economy, Senate, Congress, etc. It's because of your insinuations and wrong advice from within that the USA is in a quagmire in Iraq, Afghanistan, and now about to further stuck in Iran because you like to have your nukes but do not like any other nation to have them! We read in our Scripture that when Moses ordered the "Children of Israel" to attack and liberate the nearby "promised" land, they responded, "You and your God should go and fight, we are sitting here because the Ruler of that land is quite powerful". You refused to listen and follow the commands of your Messengers and Prophets. In fact, you killed many of them including Jesus Christ because their teachings conflict with your hidden designs. That's why God punished you and you lost whatever rights you had to go back to that "promised land". Yes, it was promised, but you defied the commands of the Messenger of the time and that of Lord Himself, and thus forfeited any right to claim it. The devine line that you were supposed to follow .. the children of Israel were supposed to follow .. was followed by Essa son of Meryyam (Jesus Christ), and Muhammad (peace be upon him), and take note that we are Muslims (have surrendered to the will and commands of God). Sir, you reap what you sow!

how do you find all that anger inside? and please, dont talk about killing. thats just insulting.

[Fee]

Well, that's the typical Jewish mentality we have been reading about in our Book Al-Qura'an. You like to punish nations and to this end occupied Palestinian land by force. All efforts by the international community (UN) to find a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian conflict, have failed because you do not listen to any one. You have also blackmailed USA to support your unjust cause blindly; you control their media, economy, Senate, Congress, etc. It's because of your insinuations and wrong advice from within that the USA is in a quagmire in Iraq, Afghanistan, and now about to further stuck in Iran because you like to have your nukes but do not like any other nation to have them! We read in our Scripture that when Moses ordered the "Children of Israel" to attack and liberate the nearby "promised" land, they responded, "You and your God should go and fight, we are sitting here because the Ruler of that land is quite powerful". You refused to listen and follow the commands of your Messengers and Prophets. In fact, you killed many of them including Jesus Christ because their teachings conflict with your hidden designs. That's why God punished you and you lost whatever rights you had to go back to that "promised land". Yes, it was promised, but you defied the commands of the Messenger of the time and that of Lord Himself, and thus forfeited any right to claim it. The devine line that you were supposed to follow .. the children of Israel were supposed to follow .. was followed by Essa son of Meryyam (Jesus Christ), and Muhammad (peace be upon him), and take note that we are Muslims (have surrendered to the will and commands of God). Sir, you reap what you sow!

1. Is this supposed to be satirical?
2. If this post is serious, who is it directed to?
2a. Please explain to me exactly how Jews control the US media, as expansive as it is.
2b. How do Jews control the US Senate and Congress (all 535 members)?
3. Which kind of Muslim are you (since referring to all Muslims as one group is apparently a gross mistake of clueless Westerners and 'infidels')?

Good Goddess, this is a fecking tennis board, would be nice to tone down the hatred a little bit.

[scez]

Mahboob what should we do then?

[bismark]

Need to Punish Indonesia!

What are you going to do? Nuke Jakarta with one of Israeli's 200 nuclear warheads?

Mahboob - go easy dude, this is just a tennis forum!

[wyutani]

shouldnt mix politics and sports together...abit ridiculous...

[astra]

Well, that's the typical Jewish mentality we have been reading about in our Book Al-Qura'an. You like to punish nations and to this end occupied Palestinian land by force. All efforts by the international community (UN) to find a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian conflict, have failed because you do not listen to any one. You have also blackmailed USA to support your unjust cause blindly; you control their media, economy, Senate, Congress, etc. It's because of your insinuations and wrong advice from within that the USA is in a quagmire in Iraq, Afghanistan, and now about to further stuck in Iran because you like to have your nukes but do not like any other nation to have them! We read in our Scripture that when Moses ordered the "Children of Israel" to attack and liberate the nearby "promised" land, they responded, "You and your God should go and fight, we are sitting here because the Ruler of that land is quite powerful". You refused to listen and follow the commands of your Messengers and Prophets. In fact, you killed many of them including Jesus Christ because their teachings conflict with your hidden designs. That's why God punished you and you lost whatever rights you had to go back to that "promised land". Yes, it was promised, but you defied the commands of the Messenger of the time and that of Lord Himself, and thus forfeited any right to claim it. The devine line that you were supposed to follow .. the children of Israel were supposed to follow .. was followed by Essa son of Meryyam (Jesus Christ), and Muhammad (peace be upon him), and take note that we are Muslims (have surrendered to the will and commands of God). Sir, you reap what you sow!
Well, take an explosion belt and fire yourself to kill some civilians in Israel, if not possible there, then any mistrustful Westerners elsewhere...Ehm, I hate religious fanatics, unfortunately, your religion actually provides them more than enough.

[Phil]

Well, that's the typical Jewish mentality we have been reading about in our Book Al-Qura'an. You like to punish nations and to this end occupied Palestinian land by force. All efforts by the international community (UN) to find a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian conflict, have failed because you do not listen to any one. You have also blackmailed USA to support your unjust cause blindly; you control their media, economy, Senate, Congress, etc. It's because of your insinuations and wrong advice from within that the USA is in a quagmire in Iraq, Afghanistan, and now about to further stuck in Iran because you like to have your nukes but do not like any other nation to have them! We read in our Scripture that when Moses ordered the "Children of Israel" to attack and liberate the nearby "promised" land, they responded, "You and your God should go and fight, we are sitting here because the Ruler of that land is quite powerful". You refused to listen and follow the commands of your Messengers and Prophets. In fact, you killed many of them including Jesus Christ because their teachings conflict with your hidden designs. That's why God punished you and you lost whatever rights you had to go back to that "promised land". Yes, it was promised, but you defied the commands of the Messenger of the time and that of Lord Himself, and thus forfeited any right to claim it. The devine line that you were supposed to follow .. the children of Israel were supposed to follow .. was followed by Essa son of Meryyam (Jesus Christ), and Muhammad (peace be upon him), and take note that we are Muslims (have surrendered to the will and commands of God). Sir, you reap what you sow!

This is the kind of rhetoric found in Islamic countries' newspapers or straight from the mouths of the death cult mullahs who exhort their followers to strap bombs on themselves and become "martyrs"...and this guy actually claims to be a "moderate" Muslim. What a joke.

Mahboob, you're a follower-you parrot the rantings of the death cult, otherwise known as Fundumentalist Islam, and don't seem capable of producing an original thought-I've heard ALL of this before, from others. You are a sad example of what the civilized world is up against.

[scez]

A Palestine suicide bomber bombs a soccer field injuring a couple of people and gets a soccer tournament named after him. Isreal bombs a palestining soccer field injuring no one and FIFA wants to punish Isreal (I forget how). And then the president of FIFA says he isnt anti semetic becasue his wife is Jewish...

[diegaa]

A Palestine suicide bomber bombs a soccer field injuring a couple of people and gets a soccer tournament named after him. Isreal bombs a palestining soccer field injuring no one and FIFA wants to punish Isreal (I forget how). And then the president of FIFA says he isnt anti semetic becasue his wife is Jewish...


Of course thats totally unfair, but the thing is that the FIFA has way more power than ATP. And besides, Isreal is a full FIFA member while Palestina State isnt.

[tennis-n-sc]

Mahboob, after reading your post, I am now sure that no Muslim country should ever be permitted to have nuclear weapons. You, sir, are a perfect example of why the rest of the world distrusts the Muslim population. Quite frankly, I don't think the future of radical Muslim cultures is very bright. You must drag yourself out of the bibical ages into the present time and allow your children a little peace.

[equinox]

mahboob you speak wise words.

Check this out. A call for a Pakistan coup.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=93669

Mahboob it's time to take that ak47 out of the cupboard.

[milo]

shouldnt mix politics and sports together...abit ridiculous...

very, very agree on this statement

[atatu]

That's a pretty scary post from Mr. Kahn, who is one of the most respected members of this forum, it's just sad. As far as Indonesia goes, yes, they should be sanctioned, ban them from Fed Cup for five years. The sad thing is that I lived in Indonesia for three years and the people there are fantastic, I didn't see much of the hatred that MK is espousing here.

[goober]

Indonesia will be punished by having to forfeit the matches and being banned for one year from fed cup as well as a $5,000 fine. They are requesting a neutral site, but the ITF rightly has stated that it is up to Israel to determine the venue not Indonesia because they are the host country.

[astra]

That's a pretty scary post from Mr. Kahn, who is one of the most respected members of this forum, it's just sad. As far as Indonesia goes, yes, they should be sanctioned, ban them from Fed Cup for five years. The sad thing is that I lived in Indonesia for three years and the people there are fantastic, I didn't see much of the hatred that MK is espousing here.
Agree. I worked 1,5 yrs in Iran and 2,5 yrs in India, neighbours of Pakistan, and had a very good experience with local people. I met many Iranian guys at playing soccer there, they desire to ged rid of Islamic goverment hardliners with MK´s ideas.

[Mahboob Khan]

This is the kind of rhetoric found in Islamic countries' newspapers or straight from the mouths of the death cult mullahs who exhort their followers to strap bombs on themselves and become "martyrs"...and this guy actually claims to be a "moderate" Muslim. What a joke.

Mahboob, you're a follower-you parrot the rantings of the death cult, otherwise known as Fundumentalist Islam, and don't seem capable of producing an original thought-I've heard ALL of this before, from others. You are a sad example of what the civilized world is up against.

The original poster wanted to punish Indonesia .. a sovereign nation. I just reminded him that taking punishment and giving punishment is in the DNA of Jewish mentality. Sir, no Muslim or Muslim Nation was responsible for holocaust, a European nation was! So, please take your beloved Israel and settle it in some European land! And please try to understand that my answer was directed to the original poster.

"You are a sad example of what the civilized world is up against". Sir, go back to school and find out who introduced you to civilization? Or go to Egypt and find out from an Egyptian Pyramid!

[Andy Hewitt]

The original poster wanted to punish Indonesia .. a sovereign nation. I just reminded him that taking punishment and giving punishment is in the DNA of Jewish mentality. Sir, no Muslim or Muslim Nation was responsible for holocaust, a European nation was! So, please take your beloved Israel and settle it in some European land! And please try to understand that my answer was directed to the original poster.

"You are a sad example of what the civilized world is up against". Sir, go back to school and find out who introduced you to civilization? Or go to Egypt and find out from an Egyptian Pyramid!
Wow cuz that isn't anti-semetic as hell...

[Mahboob Khan]

That's a pretty scary post from Mr. Kahn, who is one of the most respected members of this forum, it's just sad. As far as Indonesia goes, yes, they should be sanctioned, ban them from Fed Cup for five years. The sad thing is that I lived in Indonesia for three years and the people there are fantastic, I didn't see much of the hatred that MK is espousing here.

I just stated some plain facts. Obviously if you occupy lands the actual owners will resist!

Indonesia does not have diplomatic ties with Israel. They have not refused to play, they just asked for a neutral venue. What's wrong with that? Sir, there is nothing wrong with that, you just want to dramatize the whole thing.

[technik]

hahaha :D
When did Indonesia refuse it? I dont even know about that issue.. :confused:

[Mahboob Khan]

mahboob you speak wise words.

Check this out. A call for a Pakistan coup.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=93669

Mahboob it's time to take that ak47 out of the cupboard.

I read that but I do not agree with Zarqavi. And by the way who made "Iraq a source of violence"? It is clear now that CIA, FBI, etc., fabricated evidence to attack Iraq. Before the attack, I had sent emails to my American friends not to attack Iraq because it will become quagmire for the American troops. I also receive emails from the American soldiers in Iraq(some of them had taken tennis lessons from me), that they want to go home but can't. I know what the Zionist plan is: ride on the back of USA, attack Iran, and then Pakistan. These Jewish people want to weaken USA through these conflicts so that they fully control U.S. and world resources. If you do not like to understand this plan, it's your problem. We love ordinary Americans, I gave 15+ years .. best years of my life .. to the service of the Americans. I also gave bitter but good advice but no one listens.

[atatu]

I just stated some plain facts. Obviously if you occupy lands the actual owners will resist!

Indonesia does not have diplomatic ties with Israel. They have not refused to play, they just asked for a neutral venue. What's wrong with that? Sir, there is nothing wrong with that, you just want to dramatize the whole thing.

No, I don't want to dramatize anything. Any country who lets politics interfere with Fed Cup, Davis Cup, etc. should be punished. That includes the USA, Indonesia, Pakistan, Israel, etc.

[tonyjh63]

Mahboob, what flavor is that Kool-Aid you're chugging down? You sound just like a friend of mine I grew up with. Very anti-semitic, hates Jews with a passion. He'd rather see N.Y.C. get nuked than to save one Jewish life. No, he's not Islamic, just a fu###ing nut case like you. This is kinda sad, as until now, I had rather enjoyed your posts. At least "Phil" has finally posted something I can agree with!! You're lucky he didn't call you "spanky" or a Klansman!<G>

[tonyjh63]

The original poster wanted to punish Indonesia .. a sovereign nation. I just reminded him that taking punishment and giving punishment is in the DNA of Jewish mentality. Sir, no Muslim or Muslim Nation was responsible for holocaust, a European nation was! So, please take your beloved Israel and settle it in some European land! And please try to understand that my answer was directed to the original poster.

"You are a sad example of what the civilized world is up against". Sir, go back to school and find out who introduced you to civilization? Or go to Egypt and find out from an Egyptian Pyramid!

Mahboob, I don't think the original poster wanted to punish Indonesia with military action or anything like that. He just meant that Indonesia should have to forfeit their matches and not be allowed to participate for a number of years. Kinda like the way the West did to South Africa for so many years because of apartheid.
Yes, the Muslim world was at one time a very civilized culture. However, so far as civilized behaviour goes, the Muslim world has really fallen by the wayside. Even their so-called "moderate" leaders seem deranged when it comes to religion and Israel. So many of y'all get SO totally unhinged and foaming at the mouth when the subject of Israel comes up. (Kinda like the way our home-grown liberals do when the subject of George W. Bush comes up!<G> Sorry liberals, I just couldn't resist!<G>hehehehe...)
Anyway, Mr. Khan, you really need to let that hate go! It can't be healthy for you!

[goober]

The original poster wanted to punish Indonesia .. a sovereign nation. I just reminded him that taking punishment and giving punishment is in the DNA of Jewish mentality. Sir, no Muslim or Muslim Nation was responsible for holocaust, a European nation was! So, please take your beloved Israel and settle it in some European land! And please try to understand that my answer was directed to the original poster.

"You are a sad example of what the civilized world is up against". Sir, go back to school and find out who introduced you to civilization? Or go to Egypt and find out from an Egyptian Pyramid!


Well the ITF is punishing Indonesia's Fed Cup team (unless they change their mind and play in Israel) so does that mean they have a Jewish mentality? If Indonesia wants to particpate in Fed Cup they have to abide by their rules or be punished according to the rules. What does the holocaust, DNA of jews have to do with anything? If Israel refused to play Fed Cup in Indonesia if Indonesia was the host country then their team should also be punished.

[astra]

The original poster wanted to punish Indonesia .. a sovereign nation. I just reminded him that taking punishment and giving punishment is in the DNA of Jewish mentality. Sir, no Muslim or Muslim Nation was responsible for holocaust, a European nation was! So, please take your beloved Israel and settle it in some European land! And please try to understand that my answer was directed to the original poster.

"You are a sad example of what the civilized world is up against". Sir, go back to school and find out who introduced you to civilization? Or go to Egypt and find out from an Egyptian Pyramid!
Do you cite Mr. Ahmadinejad?
In Pakistan, there are about 300 Islamic schools where poor young boys in age of 5-6 are taken and pesistent brainwashing until age of 18 is called the education of orthodox Muslim. Then these guys become (became) Taliban fighters in Afganistan and qualified Al Quaeda suicidal bombers worldwide.
Do you teach tennis in one of the schools?

[bismark]

...These Jewish people want to weaken USA through these conflicts so that they fully control U.S. and world resources. If you do not like to understand this plan, it's your problem. We love ordinary Americans, I gave 15+ years .. best years of my life .. to the service of the Americans. I also gave bitter but good advice but no one listens.
Wow, that's one heck of conspiracy theories. However this does resonate a memory sometime back in 2002. A friend of mine who is a Muslim and a political science lecturer in Glasgow, Scotland once gave me accounts of some CONSPIRACY THEORIES involving Jews in relation to the USA. He told me they were just hypothetical, but did reflect the current events. Here's what he said:

1) The Jews, being God's chosen race, feel it is their right and duty for world domination. America is the chosen platform.

2) The Jews directly and indirectly control a THIRD of the US economy.

3) The Jewish and Pro-Israeli lobby group, backed by powerful industrialists and politicians, is more powerful and influential (though less conspicuous) than any gun, tobacco or energy lobby groups.

4) The Jews have a stake in the American media, influencing what should and should not be told to the public.

5) Masterminded by Jewish groups, the USA will attack oil producing countries which are not 'allies' and anti-Israel. The first target will be Iraq and followed by Iran. (My friend told me this in 2002. Looks like his first prediction has already come true!)

6) There was not one single Jew killed out of 3000+ victims in the 9/11 attack. (This conspiracy theory is not new, but still very much in debate today)

7) The Asian economic crisis (1998-2001), caused by Jewish investment mogul, George Soros, was a thoroughly executed plan aimed at disrupting a growing Asian economy and making certain countries (eg. Indonesia) at the mercy of USA backed loans.

That's all I can remember. IMO, most of his conspiracy theories were of course not true, or bias to a certain extent. But they certainly do keep your mind wondering.....

[astra]

Bismark, people never know everything. And this gives a "matrix" for such dubious dudes to spread conspiration theories and to manipulate others.

[scez]

Wow, Manboob knows how to easily lose all of his respect. Its people like you who caus things like the holocaust with your generalization of people. If it is Jewish DNA then cant it be easily said that it is in muslim DNA to be a suicide bomber?

[equinox]

Wow, what a silly comment to make.
Mahboob doesn't need your "respect" only those of his family and clients.
And who are you to judge him, only god himself has that right.

Just this week the israeli army shot dead an innocent women and wounded her two daughters. But that's ok because they're very "sorry".
Israel were again really sorry when they shot dead a 4 year old girl and flatten american antiwar protester rachel corrie with a armoured bulldover..so sorry they tried to cover up the truth.

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=650602006

They continue to steal land away from the Palestinian people. And are refusing to dismantle an illegal wall.

http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0604301102185754.htm

Fact, the sooner israel is destroyed. The safer the middle east will become. israels going to get nuked sooner or later. This is the undeniable truth.

[diegaa]

Wow, what a silly comment to make.
Mahboob doesn't need your "respect" only those of his family and clients.
And who are you to judge him, only god himself has that right.

Just this week the israeli army shot dead an innocent women and wounded her two daughters. But that's ok because they're very "sorry".
Israel were again really sorry when they shot dead a 4 year old girl and flatten american antiwar protester rachel corrie with a armoured bulldover..so sorry they tried to cover up the truth.

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=650602006

They continue to steal land away from the Palestinian people. And are refusing to dismantle an illegal wall.

http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0604301102185754.htm

Fact, the sooner israel is destroyed. The safer the middle east will become. israels going to get nuked sooner or later. This is the undeniable truth.

Have u ever consider to know the truth instead of talking bs? Go down there as I did, and do some field research instead of talking nonsense. You´ll be amazed of the things youll find out.
I would give you some insights but you wont believe me, so this discussion is pointless. Im not taking isreali´s side nor palestinian´s. Just bothers me a lot when people like you, quoting two websites, think they "know".

[sureshs]

Do you cite Mr. Ahmadinejad?
In Pakistan, there are about 300 Islamic schools where poor young boys in age of 5-6 are taken and pesistent brainwashing until age of 18 is called the education of orthodox Muslim. Then these guys become (became) Taliban fighters in Afganistan and qualified Al Quaeda suicidal bombers worldwide.
Do you teach tennis in one of the schools?

Mahboob Khan is an extremely decent man and really helps people out in tennis. Please do not lump him with other people and do not cast personal aspersions on him. And difficult social, political and economic issues need to be addressed properly, not in a manner which escalates hate and conflict in a vicious cycle.

[astra]

Mahboob Khan is an extremely decent man and really helps people out in tennis. Please do not lump him with other people and do not cast personal aspersions on him. And difficult social, political and economic issues need to be addressed properly, not in a manner which escalates hate and conflict in a vicious cycle.
I agree with yout last sentence. Pls read again the first post from MK and instruct him first. How can a decent man write things like this?

[Ben42]

Mahboob Khan is an extremely decent man and really helps people out in tennis. Please do not lump him with other people and do not cast personal aspersions on him. .

Why not? He's shown himself to be nothing more than a standard anti-semite. Yes, he's posted a lot of good tennis information on this board. Does that somehow excuse what he said and obviously believes? He's a nice guy who hates Jews? That certainly doesn't put him in the "extremely decent man" for me.

Mahboob Kahn, you are dead to me now.

[Phil]

The original poster wanted to punish Indonesia .. a sovereign nation. I just reminded him that taking punishment and giving punishment is in the DNA of Jewish mentality.
I'm not sure what that MEANS...but if you were to clarify it, I'm sure it would just be more anti-Semitic drivel from you. As for "giving punishment", look no further than your "Religion of Peace" for killing and maiming people for perceived "slights" to the religion.
Sir, no Muslim or Muslim Nation was responsible for holocaust, a European nation was! So, please take your beloved Israel and settle it in some European land! And please try to understand that my answer was directed to the original poster.
The original poster was trying to say that politics and sports should not be mixed to the point that athletes are being denied the opportunity to compete because of the (alleged) policies of their government (or bias of the host country in not allowing them to compete)
"You are a sad example of what the civilized world is up against". Sir, go back to school and find out who introduced you to civilization? Or go to Egypt and find out from an Egyptian Pyramid!
You probably need to read a book-our civilization is closer to ancient Greece than it is to ancient Egypt, but only in your twisted world does that even MATTER now. You need to get over your obsession with Israel...the MYRIAD of problems in your country were caused by YOUR countrymen, not the Jews. Amazing how "1.2 billion" Muslims are still obsessed by 14 million Jews...using them as a scapegoat for every problem that exists...that is SO EASY and PAINLESS...especially when the REAL source of your problems is YOU. The Jews don't CARE about you...you want to find out who is behind all that ails you? Look in your darn mirror!

[wyutani]

you should blame the person who started this thread...;)

[chiru]

This first paragraph is intended only for Mr. Mahboob Khan
mahboob, salam u alaikum wa rahmatullah. my respected brother in Islam, I realize the source of your frustration, and I'm sure most people are well aware of the issue you speak of. Akhi, as a muslim brother Im telling you that writing posts with so much written so quickly in such a reactionary manner is only proving western stereotypes right, that muslims are over reactionary people with no control of their emotions. whilst i agree with you with regards to the first poster's demands being too much to swallow, I don't think you are disproving his argument in this manner. Remember our goals are the same and I hope you realize that I am in no way "selling out" but i would rather seek resolution to this issue without what appears to be an angry rant. "And do not idly dispute with the people of the book except with a manner that is more excellant except those that have wronged you among them. and say we believe in teh book that has been sent to us and what has been sent to you and our God and your God are one and the same, and it is to He that we submit"-Surat al 'Ankabut minal Qur'an il Kareem. (I'm translating the ayah from memmory, so may Allah and you forgive me for any inaccuracies). Let us establish good ties of brother hood before we set out to find faults in one another.

That said, in response to the first poster:

I must say that I am surprised that Indonesia took this stance, but not very surprised due to their views on Israel and the Palestinian state. Its impossible on a tennis board to go throught he legitimacy of the Israeli state, or the state of Palestine or any of these broader issues. I must chastise you sir for bringing this up because as I'm sure you are aware this is a very sensitive issue, and due to the nature of a Message Board, few good or constructive things could come of bringing this issue up. As you can see this topic has served to escalate tensions and i must defer to sureshs's latest post also in regards to mr. Mahboob Khan. In regards to the Tennis, you must understand Indonesia would have to indirectly diplomatically recognize Israel which would be a very large move politically that i could never imagine a country would make for the purposes of Fed Cup which in the grander scheme of international relations is about as trivial as it comes. The ITF/WTA would have no place forcing its recogniziton of Israel on a sovereign nation. I hope you realize that just because you and several world leaders expect the world expect everyone to recognize Israel, thats not going to happen any time soon given the status quo, and certainly not at the behest of ITF. I don't think this discussion belongs in a TW message board but now that its up there, I hope people consider that this is a broader issue and cannot be viewed as black and white; broader geopolitcal considerations must be taken.

[Kaptain Karl]

Indonesia is refusing to play a Fed Cup series in Israel in July and wants the women's tennis matches switched to a neutral country.The solution is simple ... but I doubt the ITA will do it: Israel wins by default.

- KK

[Ben42]

The solution is simple ... but I doubt the ITA will do it: Israel wins by default.

- KK


I will have to mark this day down on my calendar.

May 1st, 2006: The day I agreed 100% with a post from Kaptain Karl.

[Fee]

....
6) There was not one single Jew killed out of 3000+ victims in the 9/11 attack. (This conspiracy theory is not new, but still very much in debate today)
.....

This is an outright filthy lie.

[tennisadict]

i dont understand here, just play and there is nothing to do with the islam country......btw one of the Indonesian fed cup player is a strong christian.

[lcw]

Indonesia is refusing to play a Fed Cup series in Israel in July and wants the women's tennis matches switched to a neutral country.

Indonesia is home to about 190 million Muslims, has no diplomatic relations with Israel and has long supported Palestinian independence.

SAD SAD SAD!!!! this is the kind of garbage that needs to stay out of sports.
lets hope the request is denied and they are made to forfeit the series and the team banned.

Well can we suppose that your are Jewish and/or ardent supporter of Israel and/or Muslim hater? In that case you have the right to punish and boycott any one you want but for God sake keep the rest of us out of it.
Indonesia has the right to do whatever Indonesia wants as long as it doesn’t harm any other country.
Your post spells arrogance and desire for dominance.

[Kaptain Karl]

Well can we suppose that your are Jewish and/or ardent supporter of Israel and/or Muslim hater? In that case you have the right to punish and boycott any one you want but for God sake keep the rest of us out of it.
Indonesia has the right to do whatever Indonesia wants as long as it doesn’t harm any other country.
Your post spells arrogance and desire for dominance.Wow! I've read the OP (now for the fourth time) and I cannot divine ANY of the conclusions you've leapt to.

You must have amazing psychic powers ... or you're revealing more about yourself than about the OP.

- KK

[Ben42]

.... load of crappy "theories" ....


That's all I can remember. IMO, most of his conspiracy theories were of course not true, or bias to a certain extent. But they certainly do keep your mind wondering.....

Wondering what? If they are true? Makes my mind wonder at anyone who would buy into this garbage.

[chiru]

this thread i think should be put to rest. as is plainly obvious, this thread has done little more than spread more hate and anger.

[lcw]

Wow! I've read the OP (now for the fourth time) and I cannot divine ANY of the conclusions you've leapt to.

You must have amazing psychic powers ... or you're revealing more about yourself than about the OP.

- KK

So enlighten me. What is it you think I am revealing about myself?
If you don’t think his message was pointed, what is the purpose of the following statement?

“Indonesia is home to about 190 million Muslims, has no diplomatic relations with Israel and has long supported Palestinian independence. “

Some of us are sick and tired of extremists, their hatred and intolerance regardless of their origin or religion.

[Kaptain Karl]

So enlighten me. What is it you think I am revealing about myself?Your own very obvious bias....

If you don’t think his message was pointed, what is the purpose of the following statement?

“Indonesia is home to about 190 million Muslims, has no diplomatic relations with Israel and has long supported Palestinian independence. “It is a statement of facts. That's all. It's data ... for those who may not know much about Indonesia.

Some of us are sick and tired of extremists, their hatred and intolerance regardless of their origin or religion.And this is *just* the kind of thing I was noting. You find extremism, hatred and intolerance ... in some simple FACTS??? Geez!

<film cut> lcw, complains to his Math Teacher: "Two plus two equals four??!!!! How can you be so intolerant and hateful with your extreme viewpoint???" </film cut>

- KK

[Rep. Timothy Calhoun]

I'm not sure what that MEANS...but if you were to clarify it, I'm sure it would just be more anti-Semitic drivel from you. As for "giving punishment", look no further than your "Religion of Peace" for killing and maiming people for perceived "slights" to the religion.

The original poster was trying to say that politics and sports should not be mixed to the point that athletes are being denied the opportunity to compete because of the (alleged) policies of their government (or bias of the host country in not allowing them to compete)

You probably need to read a book-our civilization is closer to ancient Greece than it is to ancient Egypt, but only in your twisted world does that even MATTER now. You need to get over your obsession with Israel...the MYRIAD of problems in your country were caused by YOUR countrymen, not the Jews. Amazing how "1.2 billion" Muslims are still obsessed by 14 million Jews...using them as a scapegoat for every problem that exists...that is SO EASY and PAINLESS...especially when the REAL source of your problems is YOU. The Jews don't CARE about you...you want to find out who is behind all that ails you? Look in your darn mirror!Phil, I don't think Manboob Khan could comprehend your elaboration! He is probably not programmed to process such rationales.

[scez]

Wow, what a silly comment to make.
Mahboob doesn't need your "respect" only those of his family and clients.
And who are you to judge him, only god himself has that right.

Just this week the israeli army shot dead an innocent women and wounded her two daughters. But that's ok because they're very "sorry".
Israel were again really sorry when they shot dead a 4 year old girl and flatten american antiwar protester rachel corrie with a armoured bulldover..so sorry they tried to cover up the truth.

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=650602006

They continue to steal land away from the Palestinian people. And are refusing to dismantle an illegal wall.

http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0604301102185754.htm

Fact, the sooner israel is destroyed. The safer the middle east will become. israels going to get nuked sooner or later. This is the undeniable truth.

Not that it matters if he has my respect, but I doubt to see how anyone could have respect for a person with such racist views as he does. It is a good thing that it is big news when an Israeli kills a Muslim because it shows how much this is "news". Yet is not such a shock/surprise when you hear there was another suicide bomber, atleast this one only killed a phew people, and the others wernt too badly injured.

[lcw]

Your own very obvious bias....

It is a statement of facts. That's all. It's data ... for those who may not know much about Indonesia.

And this is *just* the kind of thing I was noting. You find extremism, hatred and intolerance ... in some simple FACTS??? Geez!

<film cut> lcw, complains to his Math Teacher: "Two plus two equals four??!!!! How can you be so intolerant and hateful with your extreme viewpoint???" </film cut>

- KK


Your own very obvious bias....
- KK

Still what is my very obvious bias ? And who has the amazing psychic powers since you know it?


It is a statement of facts. That's all. It's data ... for those who may not know much about Indonesia.
And this is *just* the kind of thing I was noting. You find extremism, hatred and intolerance ... in some simple FACTS??? Geez!
- KK

Since the original message is about boycotting a tennis match, who give a rats ass if Indonesia is Muslim, Hindu or catholic?
Using the world punish is indeed due to arrogance and extremism. Who are we to punish anybody who didn’t pose any threat to us?

[Mahboob Khan]

Well the ITF is punishing Indonesia's Fed Cup team (unless they change their mind and play in Israel) so does that mean they have a Jewish mentality? If Indonesia wants to particpate in Fed Cup they have to abide by their rules or be punished according to the rules. What does the holocaust, DNA of jews have to do with anything? If Israel refused to play Fed Cup in Indonesia if Indonesia was the host country then their team should also be punished.

I am not from Indonesia but I understand that Indonesia does not have diplomatic relationship with Israel because Israel as a country was created on Muslim land. We all, including Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia, has stated, "if Israel would withdraw to 1967 borders i.e. vacate the territory it occupied in 67 war, we would consider recognizing Israel and have normal relationships with it", but Israel refused to accept this offer. In the absence of any diplomatic ties, Indonesia has asked for a neutral venue where they could have this Fed Cup tie. In other words they have not refused, they have not violated any ITF rules, they have requested the ITF to relocate Israel-Indonesia tie to some neutral country (acceptable to both the nations).

Since the original poster used the word "punishment to Indonesia" my mind flashed back to history. And talking about the history, since the times of our Prophet, Muhammad (peace be upon him), Muslims did everything to co-exist with Jews; in fact, when Jews were persecuted by Christians, Muslims gave refuge to Jews but unfortunately Jews have been busy all the times to conspire against Muslims and Muslim states. In my other posts in the past, I had stated, "since we enjoyed the same roots, share same prophets, almost same belief system, and our Book is full of stories about Jews and their past,
our Book refers to them as Peoples of the Book, we should live like brothers".

I hope you understand me better now.

[goober]

I am not from Indonesia but I understand that Indonesia does not have diplomatic relationship with Israel because Israel as a country was created on Muslim land. We all, including Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia, has stated, "if Israel would withdraw to 1967 borders i.e. vacate the territory it occupied in 67 war, we would consider recognizing Israel and have normal relationships with it", but Israel refused to accept this offer. In the absence of any diplomatic ties, Indonesia has asked for a neutral venue where they could have this Fed Cup tie. In other words they have not refused, they have not violated any ITF rules, they have requested the ITF to relocate Israel-Indonesia tie to some neutral country (acceptable to both the nations).

Since the original poster used the word "punishment to Indonesia" my mind flashed back to history. And talking about the history, since the times of our Prophet, Muhammad (peace be upon him), Muslims did everything to co-exist with Jews; in fact, when Jews were persecuted by Christians, Muslims gave refuge to Jews but unfortunately Jews have been busy all the times to conspire against Muslims and Muslim states. In my other posts in the past, I had stated, "since we enjoyed the same roots, share same prophets, almost same belief system, and our Book is full of stories about Jews and their past,
our Book refers to them as Peoples of the Book, we should live like brothers".

I hope you understand me better now.


Actually I understand you even less than before-


I refer you to sections 26(b-d) of the official ITF Fed Cup rules:

(b) A Nation with choice of ground shall choose a location within its own
country, unless otherwise decided under sections (c) or (d) of this
Regulation.
(c) A Nation with choice of ground may choose to play in the country of its
opponents, provided that its opponents are in agreement, and the Fed Cup
Committee gives its approval.
(d) A Tie may be played on a neutral ground provided both Nations agree, and
the Fed Cup Committee gives its approval.

As you can see Indonesia did not meet any of the requirements to change to a neutral site site since Israel as Nation with choice of ground would have to agree.

Since Israel has not agreed they are in violation if they still refuse to play there. The punishment they will receive is a fine of up to $5,000 and banned for one year from Fed Cup play if they do not play in Israel. I don't understand what part of the rules you don't comprehend?

[tonyjh63]

In my other posts in the past, I had stated, "since we enjoyed the same roots, share same prophets, almost same belief system, and our Book is full of stories about Jews and their past,
our Book refers to them as Peoples of the Book, we should live like brothers".

I hope you understand me better now.

It may just be me, but if my "brother" kept sending suicide bombers to my house, blowing up my children, I might not look on that as being very "brotherly". Just my 2 cents.

[chiru]

again, noone cares about fed cup, its a much smaller issue in the broader scope of things. If this is again ITF rules, then so be it. I hope Israel realizes the scope of this. If indonesia plays there, it recognizes it, at least to some extent, and why wud Indonesia do it. Again, if ITF wants to ban oh well not gonna be a big problem for Indonesia in the grand scheme of things. I hope Israel would agree with the D option of the ITF rules and agree to play somewhere else, but I have a feeling they wont' which given their position I can understand. but oh well, good luck to both teams.
Mahboob Khan, I wish this last post was your first post, as it would have incited less hatred, but I appreciate your gathering yourself and trying to articulate yourself in a more clear headed way. I agree the idea of "punishing Indonesia" incites a different connotation than penalizing, fining, or disqualifying, any of which would have made the discussion seem more based around the ITF issue, and not the larger issue of Israel/Palestine etc.
Was Salam u Alaikum, and may peace be upon everyone here.

[equinox]

back to the topic.

ITF can't expect indonesia to recognise israel.

imho losing the tie should be punishment enough.

[Kaptain Karl]

Using the world punish is indeed due to arrogance and extremism.Did you think to ask the OP what he meant by "punish". I didn't take it in any other way than "penalize". But you chose to see extremism and intolerant hatred ... in the word "punish"???

Who are we to punish anybody who didn’t pose any threat to us?"We?" Don't you mean the ITF ... as they are the governing body for these matches?

"Threat???" What are you posting about. The OP was writing about a tennis match.

- KK

[astra]

I am not from Indonesia but I understand that Indonesia does not have diplomatic relationship with Israel because Israel as a country was created on Muslim land. We all, including Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia, has stated, "if Israel would withdraw to 1967 borders i.e. vacate the territory it occupied in 67 war, we would consider recognizing Israel and have normal relationships with it", but Israel refused to accept this offer. In the absence of any diplomatic ties, Indonesia has asked for a neutral venue where they could have this Fed Cup tie. In other words they have not refused, they have not violated any ITF rules, they have requested the ITF to relocate Israel-Indonesia tie to some neutral country (acceptable to both the nations).


It sounds much better!
Based on this kind of your stance, it is possible to discuss here what could be done to solve the situation in favour of our sport.

[Dedans Penthouse]

Since the original message is about boycotting a tennis match, who give a rats ass if Indonesia is Muslim, Hindu or catholic?
Upper case...upper case...lower case. Do I denote a pattern...or lack thereof? Curious.

Speaks volumes about you lcw. Volumes.

For your amusement, I've got a good one for you and all the other "pious" bigots in sheep's clothing. Now while you all derisively chuckle at the joke's punchline, don't forget (in the next breath) to continue your self-righteously "My God is the Way!" chirping in all its bigoted, 24 carat hypocricy.

Oh, before I begin, forgive me lcw, but I hope you don't mind if I use a capital letter "C" with respect to the word "Catholic." Maybe it's just me, but I make it a point to use upper case (capitalization) letters whenever I come across any organized religion.

Question: Why can't Catholics play chess?
Answer: They can't tell the Bishop from the Queen.

Hope you enjoyed it, you hysterical geo-political "ball-and-chain" bigots.....esp. you lcw :-)

[norcal]

This has been around a few months but it is pretty good. Dude is a Muslim Bill O'Reilly: So are you a heretic?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB5AnHKI-2s&search=muslim%20woman

[Mahboob Khan]

Chiru, thank you, and Wa Alaikum-us-Salam.

[Mahboob Khan]

Oh, no, I am not anti-semetic (sorry, I do not know how to spell it). I am not against the Jews, they are quite closer to our religion. While I was in the USA in 1983, I used to eat at a Jewish restaurant because their eating habits are similar to Muslims and I told them that I was Muslim and they were happy to have me. In 1995, Barcelona, Spain (Worldwide Coaches workshop), I always hang around with some coaches from Israel. We freely talked about tennis and religion. At the end of the workshop I was their best friend. Again, in October 2001, Bangkok/Thailand (Worldwide Coaches Workshop), there were four coaches from Israel and we became good friends because I used to tell them stories from their and our Holy Books. In October, 2005, Antalia Turkey (Worldwide Coaches Workshop), there was one female Jewish coach and she was in the company of Muslims (myself and four coaches from Kuwait); we shopped together and took care of her.

The only issue is if someone forcibly occupy your land, your house, and the occupier is stronger than you and better equipped (tanks, F-16s, WMDs), what will you do? Suicide bombing in Islam is Haram and I never advocated it, but who used this tactic first (Japanese, Ireland, etc?). Even the pilot of a fighter aircraft knows that whilst firing missiles onto others, it is highly likely that his plane can be shot down, so in a way he is also a suicide bomber, but please do not take me wrong I never recommend suicide bombing and I am against the killings of civilians and civilian property.

As far as Fed Cup tie is concerned, Indonesia has the right to ask for a neutral venue; and if things do not work out they will bear the penalty. I have nothing against ITF rules.

[PugArePeopleToo]

Question: Why can't Catholics play chess?
Answer: They can't tell the Bishop from the Queen.


hahaha...that is a good one. Good thing Catholics don't issue fatwa for blasphemous. Can you imagine all them bishops, or queens come after you?

[goober]

The only issue is if someone forcibly occupy your land, your house, and the occupier is stronger than you and better equipped (tanks, F-16s, WMDs), what will you do? .
.

kind of like when Indonesia invaded East Timor 1975. An estimated 250,000 people died and 300,000 were refugees over the following 2 decades. Oh wait I forgot its a Muslim Country invading a Catholic one...

I guess it is a good thing that East Timor doesn't have a Fed Cup team.

[tennis_nerd22]

Well, that's the typical Jewish mentality we have been reading about in our Book Al-Qura'an. You like to punish nations and to this end occupied Palestinian land by force. All efforts by the international community (UN) to find a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian conflict, have failed because you do not listen to any one. You have also blackmailed USA to support your unjust cause blindly; you control their media, economy, Senate, Congress, etc. It's because of your insinuations and wrong advice from within that the USA is in a quagmire in Iraq, Afghanistan, and now about to further stuck in Iran because you like to have your nukes but do not like any other nation to have them! We read in our Scripture that when Moses ordered the "Children of Israel" to attack and liberate the nearby "promised" land, they responded, "You and your God should go and fight, we are sitting here because the Ruler of that land is quite powerful". You refused to listen and follow the commands of your Messengers and Prophets. In fact, you killed many of them including Jesus Christ because their teachings conflict with your hidden designs. That's why God punished you and you lost whatever rights you had to go back to that "promised land". Yes, it was promised, but you defied the commands of the Messenger of the time and that of Lord Himself, and thus forfeited any right to claim it. The devine line that you were supposed to follow .. the children of Israel were supposed to follow .. was followed by Essa son of Meryyam (Jesus Christ), and Muhammad (peace be upon him), and take note that we are Muslims (have surrendered to the will and commands of God). Sir, you reap what you sow!

mahboob, you explained it well, im muslim too. what kind of muslim are you (just wondering), cuz you told that guy off pretty well. of course, those who are criticizing you, havent taken the time to study anything about muslims.

anyways, since criticizing your lack of understanding is pointless unless we help you learn. go to this site: http://www.ismaili.net/html/ that guy, the aga khan, is the leader of shia imami ismaili muslims (what i am). if you know anything about global leaders, you'll probably have heard of him.

btw, this guy is liked by many different types of people and religious leaders, INCLUDING JEWS. someone mentioned this in an earlier post, but tennis and politics dont mix (but this is the rants and raves section :mrgreen: )

[tennis_nerd22]

This is the kind of rhetoric found in Islamic countries' newspapers or straight from the mouths of the death cult mullahs who exhort their followers to strap bombs on themselves and become "martyrs"...and this guy actually claims to be a "moderate" Muslim. What a joke.

Mahboob, you're a follower-you parrot the rantings of the death cult, otherwise known as Fundumentalist Islam, and don't seem capable of producing an original thought-I've heard ALL of this before, from others. You are a sad example of what the civilized world is up against.

i always knew you were empty in the head phil :) nah your not man, you just have a lack of understanding. i dont blame you for that, i blame you for ignorance. FYI, islam encourages peace, not death. those people shooting we see on the news everyday are extremists. they do not represent islam, and you should not think that they do. just because hitler was an a-hole, does that mean all germans are bad? i dont think so. just because ariel charron (sorry if i spelt that wrong) made stupid decisions on attacking palestine, does that mean all jewish people are bad? no

[tennis_nerd22]

Mahboob, after reading your post, I am now sure that no Muslim country should ever be permitted to have nuclear weapons. You, sir, are a perfect example of why the rest of the world distrusts the Muslim population. Quite frankly, I don't think the future of radical Muslim cultures is very bright. You must drag yourself out of the bibical ages into the present time and allow your children a little peace.

well, i wouldnt want to see bush, him being a catholic, with nuclear weapons. the whole of the middle east would be dead. i mean, he goes into iraq for oil, saying they have weapons of mass destruction. now other middle eastern countries are mad (like saudi's jacking up oil prices). bush is not only destorying those countries, killing 100 000's of thousands of people, but he's harming his own country. i dont know about you, but i wouldnt trust george bush with my life.

lol one day, the middle east and china and india will be on top of the world, and the US will be considered a "third world country". oooo, i'd love to see george bush then, though he'll probably be dead

[chiru]

bush isnt a catholic buddy, if i remember correctly a born again christian. kennedy was the first and last catholic pres. tennis nerd btw im ahlus sunnah wal jama'a (sunni for succinctness). People on this board please realize that alot of teh crap you see on the news is ignorant people being led by ignorant leaders. Usama bin laden is not a scholar, not a jurist, or in anyway an authority on islam, and yet he issues fatwas. thus those fatwas have no weight. a true fatwa should come from a jama'a (group) of scholars, and every such group has condemned antisemitism as well as suicide bombing (which is wrong on many levels, suicide is forbidden, killing innocents is forbidden, and destroying people or property by means of god's punishment (i.e. fire) is also forbidden). what muslim people have against the jews of Israel right now is a political issue, not a religious issue. we have a lot of agreements on religious issues, in fact theologically islam is somewhat in between judaism and christianity. however politically many muslims have issue with israeli occupation, and i must applaud israel's recent withdrawal form the part of the Palestinian territory. if you would remember, hamas, the biggest terrorist group in palestine declared a ceasefire sometime in 2004, which they have honored well, which even Israelis agree to. It is in my opinoin this ceasefire that led to the withdrawal from Israel's end. This issue needs to be solved politically, lets not all get the wrong idea around here. Also please do not make claims abotu what is and is not in the Qur'an, I am almost a hafiz (complete memorizer) so before you say this is or is not in it, please consult a person of knowledge. lets keep religion out of this discussion, as it is truly a political one. he have nothing agaisnt judaism or the jewish people, some of us have issue with ISRAELI occupation of palestinain lands. may this message reach you whilst you are in a state of peace. Was Salam u Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh

[Phil]

i always knew you were empty in the head phil :) nah your not man, you just have a lack of understanding. i dont blame you for that, i blame you for ignorance. FYI, islam encourages peace, not death. those people shooting we see on the news everyday are extremists. they do not represent islam, and you should not think that they do. just because hitler was an a-hole, does that mean all germans are bad? i dont think so. just because ariel charron (sorry if i spelt that wrong) made stupid decisions on attacking palestine, does that mean all jewish people are bad? no

tennis nerd 22 - I'm positive that I understand the issue better than you do, and especially so after your last post (quoted above)...

Islam has NEVER encouraged peace (and neither, really, has Christianity). Peace among other Muslims, yes, of course, but the Koran, if YOU'VE EVER READ IT is chock full of fighting words, and Islam was, until the Ottoman Empire ended, a religion of conquest (other than the Arabian peninsula, most "Islam Lands" were, before Muslims conquered them, Christian).

Are ALL Muslims extremists? Of course not, but the "extremists" cannot survive without massive financial and moral support from the Muslim world. You really think Osama bin Laden operates in a vacuum? You need to read up on history and current events because it's obvious that you are painfully ignorant of those two subjects.

Your example of the Germans is a very poor one. First off, Hitler wasn't just an "a-hole"...a mornonic phrasing...secondly, Hitler could not have done what he did without the cooperation-and the very WILLING cooperation-of the majority of the German people. So are ALL Germans responsible for the death of approximately 35 million people? In 1945 YES, pretty much all of them, either by their direct involvement or just plain apathy. They CREATED Hitler...allowed him to flourish and ELECTED him in 1933. It wasn't for NOTHING that Gen. Eisenhower forced the German people living near concentration camps, to visit those camps and help dig graves for the thousands of corpses.

So if MY head is "empty" then WTF is inside of yours? Do you even HAVE one?

[Phil]

bush isnt a catholic buddy, if i remember correctly a born again christian. kennedy was the first and last catholic pres. tennis nerd btw im ahlus sunnah wal jama'a (sunni for succinctness). People on this board please realize that alot of teh crap you see on the news is ignorant people being led by ignorant leaders. Usama bin laden is not a scholar, not a jurist, or in anyway an authority on islam, and yet he issues fatwas. thus those fatwas have no weight. a true fatwa should come from a jama'a (group) of scholars, and every such group has condemned antisemitism as well as suicide bombing (which is wrong on many levels, suicide is forbidden, killing innocents is forbidden, and destroying people or property by means of god's punishment (i.e. fire) is also forbidden). what muslim people have against the jews of Israel right now is a political issue, not a religious issue. we have a lot of agreements on religious issues, in fact theologically islam is somewhat in between judaism and christianity. however politically many muslims have issue with israeli occupation, and i must applaud israel's recent withdrawal form the part of the Palestinian territory. if you would remember, hamas, the biggest terrorist group in palestine declared a ceasefire sometime in 2004, which they have honored well, which even Israelis agree to. It is in my opinoin this ceasefire that led to the withdrawal from Israel's end. This issue needs to be solved politically, lets not all get the wrong idea around here. Also please do not make claims abotu what is and is not in the Qur'an, I am almost a hafiz (complete memorizer) so before you say this is or is not in it, please consult a person of knowledge. lets keep religion out of this discussion, as it is truly a political one. he have nothing agaisnt judaism or the jewish people, some of us have issue with ISRAELI occupation of palestinain lands. may this message reach you whilst you are in a state of peace. Was Salam u Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh

You sound like a voice of reason...a "moderate" and a pragmatist. But your type is not so common these days.

While there are a lot of ignorant people out there, on BOTH sides of the issue, I don't think you can write-off some of the recent comments regarding "The Religion of Peace" as coming from ignornant people who are brainwashed by Fox News. THOSE comments are very easy to spot. Too much is happening to just write-off the indications that Fundumentalist Islam, with the SUPPORT, either vocal or SILENT, of large swaths of the Muslim world, is at "war" with the West. My government has worsened the situation by attacking a country in the name of "The War on Terrorism" instead of going after true terrorists. But lost in the controversy, is the fact that the US also has also come to the aid of Afghanistan, Somalia (or at least TRIED), Muslim Bosnians and Kosovars and Kuwait-all of whom were under attack or on the verge of genocide.

The Israeli occupation of the West Bank is a big, big issue, but it's being exploited by Muslim governments, especially Iran, to ensure that the anger of those government's peoples is directed somewhere OTHER than at said-governments. Israel is not responsible for the poverty and oppression that exists in Pakistan, Egypt, Yemen, Saudi, etc. Israel did not dictate that a country with HUGE oil reserves can still be stuck in the third world (Iran). Israeli is a convenient safety valve for cynical Muslim leaders to strengthen their hold on power. If it didn't exist, Muslim governments would have to invent it.

[astra]

tennis nerd 22 - I'm positive that I understand the issue better than you do, and especially so after your last post (quoted above)...

Islam has NEVER encouraged peace (and neither, really, has Christianity). Peace among other Muslims, yes, of course, but the Koran, if YOU'VE EVER READ IT is chock full of fighting words, and Islam was, until the Ottoman Empire ended, a religion of conquest (other than the Arabian peninsula, most "Islam Lands" were, before Muslims conquered them, Christian).

Are ALL Muslims extremists? Of course not, but the "extremists" cannot survive without massive financial and moral support from the Muslim world. You really think Osama bin Laden operates in a vacuum? You need to read up on history and current events because it's obvious that you are painfully ignorant of those two subjects.

Your example of the Germans is a very poor one. First off, Hitler wasn't just an "a-hole"...a mornonic phrasing...secondly, Hitler could not have done what he did without the cooperation-and the very WILLING cooperation-of the majority of the German people. So are ALL Germans responsible for the death of approximately 35 million people? In 1945 YES, pretty much all of them, either by their direct involvement or just plain apathy. They CREATED Hitler...allowed him to flourish and ELECTED him in 1933. It wasn't for NOTHING that Gen. Eisenhower forced the German people living near concentration camps, to visit those camps and help dig graves for the thousands of corpses.

So if MY head is "empty" then WTF is inside of yours? Do you even HAVE one?
I am a neighbour of Germany and accept the German people. But that is true, what Phil writes about Germany in 1939. Germany does not like it, but it is necessary to remind again and again, what human fanaticism did.
Phil does not seem head empty, someone else seems to be hot-blooded and slightly young.
It is good to read Phil and Chiru on this sensitive topic.

[tennis_nerd22]

tennis nerd 22 - I'm positive that I understand the issue better than you do, and especially so after your last post (quoted above)...

Islam has NEVER encouraged peace (and neither, really, has Christianity). Peace among other Muslims, yes, of course, but the Koran, if YOU'VE EVER READ IT is chock full of fighting words, and Islam was, until the Ottoman Empire ended, a religion of conquest (other than the Arabian peninsula, most "Islam Lands" were, before Muslims conquered them, Christian).

you just proved my point, if you knew anything about muslims, you'd know that they encourage peace, NOT war. i ought to know since i am muslim. btw, to prove that you know nothing about islam and the quran, you CANT EVEN SPELL IT RIGHT

[Kaptain Karl]

... if you knew anything about muslims, you'd know that they encourage peace, NOT war. i ought to know since i am muslim.I have frequently heard and read this ... but the *actions* of most Muslims speak louder than these words of yours. Actually the inaction of most Muslims is what baffles me. Why do the (supposedly 99%) peaceful Muslims not put a stop to the (supposedly) very small minority of extremists? Why do you allow these (few) extremists to have such ... influence ... with your young men? Why do your Imams and other Muslim leaders not publicly condemn the bombers?

Note that ... intelectually ... I can allow that Muslims would be bothered that "all Islam" is being painted with the brush of a (few) extremists. I am a Christian, who is very tired of having opponents attempt to paint Christianity with the brushes of Pat Robertson, Timothy McVeigh, Jesse Jackson and (that idiotic) "Reverend" Phelps dope.

But the difference is ... many real Christian leaders have very publicly chastised these so-called Christian "leaders". Very few Muslim leaders have -- when given the opportunity on very public venues like TV and Radio -- condemned the Islamic terrorists.

- KK

[Brettolius]

I am not from Indonesia but I understand that Indonesia does not have diplomatic relationship with Israel because Israel as a country was created on Muslim land.


I am very curious to know who owned the land that Israel is before the Muslims? And how did the Muslims come to own the land?

[gscone]

Muslims= Cancer of the world- Nuff said.

[tennis_nerd22]

I have frequently heard and read this ... but the *actions* of most Muslims speak louder than these words of yours. Actually the inaction of most Muslims is what baffles me. Why do the (supposedly 99%) peaceful Muslims not put a stop to the (supposedly) very small minority of extremists? Why do you allow these (few) extremists to have such ... influence ... with your young men? Why do your Imams and other Muslim leaders not publicly condemn the bombers?

Note that ... intelectually ... I can allow that Muslims would be bothered that "all Islam" is being painted with the brush of a (few) extremists. I am a Christian, who is very tired of having opponents attempt to paint Christianity with the brushes of Pat Robertson, Timothy McVeigh, Jesse Jackson and (that idiotic) "Reverend" Phelps dope.

But the difference is ... many real Christian leaders have very publicly chastised these so-called Christian "leaders". Very few Muslim leaders have -- when given the opportunity on very public venues like TV and Radio -- condemned the Islamic terrorists.

- KK

well karl, you raise a good question. now i cant speak about other muslims, but those who do encourage violence cannot call themselves muslim, because they are not.

for me, im an ismaili muslim, but none of the people from our "sector" of muslims are part of this violence (there are many branches of muslims who follow islam). we go against it. however, there is only so much we can do, but, our leader is known by all the major prime ministers and presidents of the world, because, they know he's a "good guy" (for a lack of a better way to put that). thats why i posted that link earlier, go read it and you'll see what i mean by this.

but you raise a good point, those who are purposely violent in such ways, can not call themselves true muslims. they dont follow what the quaran says

[Mahboob Khan]

Islam is a religion of peace but it does not mean that Muslims will stay inactive if attacked. Every nation, every country, and every religion has a right to defend itself against foreign attacking forces!

[Mahboob Khan]

I am very curious to know who owned the land that Israel is before the Muslims? And how did the Muslims come to own the land?

Israel was created on Arab land. Arab Muslims owned the land on which Israel was created.

[lcw]

Note that ... intelectually ... I can allow that Muslims would be bothered that "all Islam" is being painted with the brush of a (few) extremists. I am a Christian, who is very tired of having opponents attempt to paint Christianity with the brushes of Pat Robertson, Timothy McVeigh, Jesse Jackson and (that idiotic) "Reverend" Phelps dope.

But the difference is ... many real Christian leaders have very publicly chastised these so-called Christian "leaders". Very few Muslim leaders have -- when given the opportunity on very public venues like TV and Radio -- condemned the Islamic terrorists.

- KK

Like who? Can you give some names and provide links?
I am an American Christian who would like to know these Christian leaders.

[Kaptain Karl]

These quotes are out-of-order ... purposely. lcw, your history with me prompts me to want to verify some of your claims, before I answer your question. [I mean you no offense. I'm just ... wary.]

I am an American Christian ... I believe you are an American. Please tell me what it means that you claim to be a Christian. (Many people claim to be Christian ... but cannot explain what it means. In your case I wonder....)

... who would like to know these Christian leaders. Like who? Can you give some names and provide links?I can ... but I'm not posting here to play games with you. Clarify my above question and I'll continue *this* part of our discussion....

- KK

[nickybol]

The reason why Muslim leaders are not stopping Muslim extremists is because there are no Muslim leaders. There is no Muslim pope. The Muslim world is very divided.

[tennis_nerd22]

The reason why Muslim leaders are not stopping Muslim extremists is because there are no Muslim leaders. There is no Muslim pope. The Muslim world is very divided.

well we have one: the aga khan, and he is quite well known. here's a link:
http://ismaili.net/html/
so technically, there is one muslim pope, for ONE type of muslim. but overall muslims are divided, and some even hate each other. this is the problem of the world: no one can accept others for what they are

[Ben42]

Israel was created on Arab land. Arab Muslims owned the land on which Israel was created.


Really? Even though the archeological record shows a constant and unbroken Jewish presence in Israel going back over 2500 years? Even though this predates Isam? Even though early Zionists purchased the land they settled from its Ottoman (Turkish) owners?

Doesn’t sound like “Arab” land to me.

[scez]

The proffesor at my brothers University and head of some Muslim organization said in a interview that all Jews who have served in the Israeli army should be allowed to be attacked. He did not even apologise for what he said, it is sickening to think of how well educated/respected Muslims can still have these thoughts.

[Mahboob Khan]

Really? Even though the archeological record shows a constant and unbroken Jewish presence in Israel going back over 2500 years? Even though this predates Isam? Even though early Zionists purchased the land they settled from its Ottoman (Turkish) owners?

Doesn’t sound like “Arab” land to me.

"Even though this predates Islam?". This is your complete ignorance about Islam. Islam was not brought (or created) on this earth by Muhammad (peace be upon him); through him Islam was only perfected as a "deen" -- way of life. Al-Qura'an has clearly dubbed Abraham (Ibraheem) as a follower of Islam, "Ma kana Ibraheemo Yahoodian wala Nasranian walakan kana Haneefen Musliman wama kana minal Mushrakeen". Translation: "Abraham wasn't Jew or Christian, he was upright Muslim (follower of Islam), and wasn't from those who ascribed partners onto the Lord God" (chapter 3, Ale Imran). Every body knows that Abraham came before Tora and Bible .. before Moses and Jesus. Similarly all Messengers and Prophets of Allah were follower of Islam. Islam predates Judaism, Christianity, or anything on this earth. What's Islam: Complete submission to the will and commands of Allah .. believing that He is One and there is no one but Him as one Supreme Allah. Oneness of God is the core of Islam. Yes, Sharia (rules, regulations, procedures) was evolved and perfected over time through many Messengers of Allah. Islam was a process .. a way of life .. that started on this earth by Adam and completed on Muhammad. All Messengers and Prophets of Islam such as Adam, Noah, Ibraheem, Isaac (Eshaque), Ismail, Jacob (Yacob), Moosa (Moses), David (Dawood), Sulaiman, Zakaria, Jesus (Maseeh ibne Meryyam), and finally Muhammad played their due role in making the way of life -- Deen -- complete. Allah has stated in the Book, "In the beginning the religion was one but those (to whom Book was given) got divided into it (meaning Jews and Christians settled into new branches of religion)". In chapter 3, Allah has stated, "Innud deena endallah-hil-Islam": "Indeed, deen liked (chosen) by Allah, is Al-Islam". Judaism or Christianity were created by those to whom Tora and Bible were given, these religions were not originated by Allah. Even the unchanged Tora and Bible has mandated that only one God be worshiped. But now the latest research shown on Nat Geo confirms that there were Gospels other than that of Mark, Mathew, Luke, and John; however, king Constantine kept some and discarded the rest! Do you know what got discarded? Did he throw away the original or fake Gospel(s)? And how about the Gospel of Judas according to which the original Jesus Christ wasn't crucifixed (spelling?) .. it refers to crucifixion as an "illusion", and that's stated exactly in our Book, "Essa wasn't crucifixed or killed, however, it appeared to them so". Sir, my only plea to you is this, kindly understand us through our Book Al-Qura'an.

May Allah give us the wisdom which we all so badly need, Ameen!

By the way I am not an Ismaili, not a sunni, not a Shia, not a Wahabi; I am just a plain Muslim because Ismaili, sunni, or Shia, did not exist during the time of the Messenger of Allah!

[tonyjh63]

"Even though this predates Islam?". This is your complete ignorance about Islam. Islam was not brought (or created) on this earth by Muhammad (peace be upon him); through him Islam was only perfected as a "deen" -- way of life. Al-Qura'an has clearly dubbed Abraham (Ibraheem) as a follower of Islam, "Ma kana Ibraheemo Yahoodian wala Nasranian walakan kana Haneefen Musliman wama kana minal Mushrakeen". Translation: "Abraham wasn't Jew or Christian, he was upright Muslim (follower of Islam), and wasn't from those who ascribed partners onto the Lord God" (chapter 3, Ale Imran). Every body knows that Abraham came before Tora and Bible .. before Moses and Jesus. Similarly all Messengers and Prophets of Allah were follower of Islam. Islam predates Judaism, Christianity, or anything on this earth. What's Islam: Complete submission to the will and commands of Allah .. believing that He is One and there is no one but Him as one Supreme Allah. Oneness of God is the core of Islam. Yes, Sharia (rules, regulations, procedures) was evolved and perfected over time through many Messengers of Allah. Islam was a process .. a way of life .. that started on this earth by Adam and completed on Muhammad. All Messengers and Prophets of Islam such as Adam, Noah, Ibraheem, Isaac (Eshaque), Ismail, Jacob (Yacob), Moosa (Moses), David (Dawood), Sulaiman, Zakaria, Jesus (Maseeh ibne Meryyam), and finally Muhammad played their due role in making the way of life -- Deen -- complete. Allah has stated in the Book, "In the beginning the religion was one but those (to whom Book was given) got divided into it (meaning Jews and Christians settled into new branches of religion)". In chapter 3, Allah has stated, "Innud deena endallah-hil-Islam": "Indeed, deen liked (chosen) by Allah, is Al-Islam". Judaism or Christianity were created by those to whom Tora and Bible were given, these religions were not originated by Allah. Even the unchanged Tora and Bible has mandated that only one God be worshiped. But now the latest research shown on Nat Geo confirms that there were Gospels other than that of Mark, Mathew, Luke, and John; however, king Constantine kept some and discarded the rest! Do you know what got discarded? Did he throw away the original or fake Gospel(s)? And how about the Gospel of Judas according to which the original Jesus Christ wasn't crucifixed (spelling?) .. it refers to crucifixion as an "illusion", and that's stated exactly in our Book, "Essa wasn't crucifixed or killed, however, it appeared to them so". Sir, my only plea to you is this, kindly understand us through our Book Al-Qura'an.

May Allah give us the wisdom which we all so badly need, Ameen!

By the way I am not an Ismaili, not a sunni, not a Shia, not a Wahabi; I am just a plain Muslim because Ismaili, sunni, or Shia, did not exist during the time of the Messenger of Allah!

Oh my God, I've heard it all now!! Abraham, Isaac, etc. were MUSLIMS?!?! Islam is older than Jadaism?! My God, these Muslim fanatics will believe absolutely ANYTHING!!!

[Phil]

you just proved my point, if you knew anything about muslims, you'd know that they encourage peace, NOT war. i ought to know since i am muslim. btw, to prove that you know nothing about islam and the quran, you CANT EVEN SPELL IT RIGHT

That's the best that you can do, SPELLING? First off, there are two generally accepted transliteration systems for Arabic; and "Quran" and "Koran" are BOTH acceptable according to one or the other of these systems. I find that people who have nothing to say on this board-or in your case, have had their asses handed to them-will resort to pettiness (e.g. spelling errors or typo). Well, you failed to even do that.

If you have something to say, say it, otherwise, kiss off, son.

[nickybol]

"Even though this predates Islam?". This is your complete ignorance about Islam. Islam was not brought (or created) on this earth by Muhammad (peace be upon him); through him Islam was only perfected as a "deen" -- way of life. Al-Qura'an has clearly dubbed Abraham (Ibraheem) as a follower of Islam, "Ma kana Ibraheemo Yahoodian wala Nasranian walakan kana Haneefen Musliman wama kana minal Mushrakeen". Translation: "Abraham wasn't Jew or Christian, he was upright Muslim (follower of Islam), and wasn't from those who ascribed partners onto the Lord God" (chapter 3, Ale Imran). Every body knows that Abraham came before Tora and Bible .. before Moses and Jesus. Similarly all Messengers and Prophets of Allah were follower of Islam. Islam predates Judaism, Christianity, or anything on this earth. What's Islam: Complete submission to the will and commands of Allah .. believing that He is One and there is no one but Him as one Supreme Allah. Oneness of God is the core of Islam. Yes, Sharia (rules, regulations, procedures) was evolved and perfected over time through many Messengers of Allah. Islam was a process .. a way of life .. that started on this earth by Adam and completed on Muhammad. All Messengers and Prophets of Islam such as Adam, Noah, Ibraheem, Isaac (Eshaque), Ismail, Jacob (Yacob), Moosa (Moses), David (Dawood), Sulaiman, Zakaria, Jesus (Maseeh ibne Meryyam), and finally Muhammad played their due role in making the way of life -- Deen -- complete. Allah has stated in the Book, "In the beginning the religion was one but those (to whom Book was given) got divided into it (meaning Jews and Christians settled into new branches of religion)". In chapter 3, Allah has stated, "Innud deena endallah-hil-Islam": "Indeed, deen liked (chosen) by Allah, is Al-Islam". Judaism or Christianity were created by those to whom Tora and Bible were given, these religions were not originated by Allah. Even the unchanged Tora and Bible has mandated that only one God be worshiped. But now the latest research shown on Nat Geo confirms that there were Gospels other than that of Mark, Mathew, Luke, and John; however, king Constantine kept some and discarded the rest! Do you know what got discarded? Did he throw away the original or fake Gospel(s)? And how about the Gospel of Judas according to which the original Jesus Christ wasn't crucifixed (spelling?) .. it refers to crucifixion as an "illusion", and that's stated exactly in our Book, "Essa wasn't crucifixed or killed, however, it appeared to them so". Sir, my only plea to you is this, kindly understand us through our Book Al-Qura'an.

May Allah give us the wisdom which we all so badly need, Ameen!

By the way I am not an Ismaili, not a sunni, not a Shia, not a Wahabi; I am just a plain Muslim because Ismaili, sunni, or Shia, did not exist during the time of the Messenger of Allah!
Complete rubbish Mahboob. Islam was created in Mekka in an environment of polytheistic Arabs. The god they chose, Allah, was just one of their many gods they had before Islam was created, a moongod.

offtopic: does your academy have a website?

[astra]

Islam is a religion of peace but it does not mean that Muslims will stay inactive if attacked. Every nation, every country, and every religion has a right to defend itself against foreign attacking forces!
The Euro states naturalized many, many people from Islamic countries. You should hear their Imams´hatred preachments in mosques. Regardless England, Spain and Italy, they are actually a terror danger in France, Germany and the Netherlands - the states, which were against the Iraq war or neutral. Also, we do not have Hindu or Buddhist terrorists here, if speaking of a peaceful religion.
For moderate Muslims, it is time to strongly condemn radical explanation of Islam and terror supporters. I feel not enough has been done as yet.

[tennis_nerd22]

That's the best that you can do, SPELLING? First off, there are two generally accepted transliteration systems for Arabic; and "Quran" and "Koran" are BOTH acceptable according to one or the other of these systems. I find that people who have nothing to say on this board-or in your case, have had their asses handed to them-will resort to pettiness (e.g. spelling errors or typo). Well, you failed to even do that.

If you have something to say, say it, otherwise, kiss off, son.

i have said it, and you dont seem to want to listen to me, so YOU can kiss off :mrgreen:

[tennis_nerd22]

Complete rubbish Mahboob. Islam was created in Mekka in an environment of polytheistic Arabs. The god they chose, Allah, was just one of their many gods they had before Islam was created, a moongod.

offtopic: does your academy have a website?

allah wasnt a moongod. otherwise, how were the passages of the quaran revealed to prophet muhammed?

[tennis_nerd22]

"Even though this predates Islam?". This is your complete ignorance about Islam. Islam was not brought (or created) on this earth by Muhammad (peace be upon him); through him Islam was only perfected as a "deen" -- way of life. Al-Qura'an has clearly dubbed Abraham (Ibraheem) as a follower of Islam, "Ma kana Ibraheemo Yahoodian wala Nasranian walakan kana Haneefen Musliman wama kana minal Mushrakeen". Translation: "Abraham wasn't Jew or Christian, he was upright Muslim (follower of Islam), and wasn't from those who ascribed partners onto the Lord God" (chapter 3, Ale Imran). Every body knows that Abraham came before Tora and Bible .. before Moses and Jesus. Similarly all Messengers and Prophets of Allah were follower of Islam. Islam predates Judaism, Christianity, or anything on this earth. What's Islam: Complete submission to the will and commands of Allah .. believing that He is One and there is no one but Him as one Supreme Allah. Oneness of God is the core of Islam. Yes, Sharia (rules, regulations, procedures) was evolved and perfected over time through many Messengers of Allah. Islam was a process .. a way of life .. that started on this earth by Adam and completed on Muhammad. All Messengers and Prophets of Islam such as Adam, Noah, Ibraheem, Isaac (Eshaque), Ismail, Jacob (Yacob), Moosa (Moses), David (Dawood), Sulaiman, Zakaria, Jesus (Maseeh ibne Meryyam), and finally Muhammad played their due role in making the way of life -- Deen -- complete. Allah has stated in the Book, "In the beginning the religion was one but those (to whom Book was given) got divided into it (meaning Jews and Christians settled into new branches of religion)". In chapter 3, Allah has stated, "Innud deena endallah-hil-Islam": "Indeed, deen liked (chosen) by Allah, is Al-Islam". Judaism or Christianity were created by those to whom Tora and Bible were given, these religions were not originated by Allah. Even the unchanged Tora and Bible has mandated that only one God be worshiped. But now the latest research shown on Nat Geo confirms that there were Gospels other than that of Mark, Mathew, Luke, and John; however, king Constantine kept some and discarded the rest! Do you know what got discarded? Did he throw away the original or fake Gospel(s)? And how about the Gospel of Judas according to which the original Jesus Christ wasn't crucifixed (spelling?) .. it refers to crucifixion as an "illusion", and that's stated exactly in our Book, "Essa wasn't crucifixed or killed, however, it appeared to them so". Sir, my only plea to you is this, kindly understand us through our Book Al-Qura'an.

May Allah give us the wisdom which we all so badly need, Ameen!

By the way I am not an Ismaili, not a sunni, not a Shia, not a Wahabi; I am just a plain Muslim because Ismaili, sunni, or Shia, did not exist during the time of the Messenger of Allah!

excuse me?!? mahboob, i thought with your knowledge you'd know that ismaili's were indeed the only true followers of prophet muhammed. wow

did YOU know that after prophet muhammed made his revelations, and no one listened to him, that he told his followers that hazrat ali would be his follower? and that we were supposed to listen to him as he was our guide (imam)? that is what ismaili's believe in. but the other muslims dont believe that there was anyone after muhammed. so stop being biased.

you are right that judaism and christianity were created after different beliefs and not by allah, but if people want to believe in that and pray to it then so be it. we dont have a right to tell them they're wrong. HOWEVER, when they tell you that YOU are wrong (like this thread :D), or they think that YOUR religion is bad, then that is when you explain to them that they are wrong about your religion

[Kaptain Karl]

"Even though this predates Islam?". This is your complete ignorance about Islam. Islam was not brought (or created) on this earth by Muhammad (peace be upon him); through him Islam was only perfected as a "deen" -- way of life. [Etc.]Wow! I'm tempted to ridicule this revisionist history. I will refrain....

Here are some historical facts about the origins of Islam. (Source for much of this is <www.Equip.org>.)

A.) Before Islam
1. Mecca was polytheistic; Allah was just one of many gods.
2. Mohammed was battling depression, self-doubt, trauma; he was close to suicidal. (AD 610)
3. In one of his "down" times, M. retreated to a cave in Hira, where he claims the Angel Gabriel appeared to him and announced “M. is Allah’s Prophet”
4. Mohammed thought he was crazy. M.'s wife, Khadija, soothed him ... and was the visionary (the momentum) behind M. starting this new religion. [Ironic isn't it. A religion which puts women on a level with "property" was really ... invented by ... a woman (Khadija).]
5. About 3 years post-Hira, M. starts preaching (AD 613)

B.) Islam is established
1. Meccans were incensed at Mohammed for heresy against their gods. (The Meccans were going to -- at the very least -- run him out of town.)
2. M. fled to Ethiopia with his (roughly 15) followers (AD 617)
3. “Islam” grew to about 70. M. returned to Mecca & compromised over the "one god" thing.
4. Mohammed called 3 idols daughters of Allah [Sura 53:19,20] (Remember a recent book?)
5. Meccans nearly murdered Mohammed for retracting compromise. Mohammed claimed Satan deceived him into agreement. (After, the abrogated verses were known as the “Satanic Verses.”) The Meccans ran him out of town ... again.
6. After “Flight II” M. based in Medina, on northern trade route from Mecca.

C.) Islam’s Growth
1. From Medina, Mohammed & Islam grew in wealth and power by becoming a marauder, ransacking caravans, raping & murdering. (He would bind the men's hands and have them kneel in a shoulder to shoulder line. One-by-one Mohammed would offer to let the men live if they "converted" to Islam. If they refused, they were murdered on the spot.)
2. Islam grew in numbers through force; terrorizing the vanquished.

D.) Mohammeds successors led the bloody advances of Islam into ... Middle East ... Northern Africa ... Southern Europe ... Central Europe

E.) Since 1985, Muslims have persisted in jihad to “spread Islam” ... Khartoum, Sudan ... El-Kosheh, Egypt ... Rwanda ... Bosnia ... Kosovo ... Jakarta, Indonesia (a very “organized” jihad)

F.) Conclusion: Since Islam was founded in AD 610, it neither predated Judaism or Christianity.

By the way I am not an Ismaili, not a sunni, not a Shia, not a Wahabi; I am just a plain Muslim....This ... intra-Faith division ... is common. (Christians and Jews have it too.) It also contributes to misunderstandings. Thank you for clarifying where you stand.

- KK

[kevhen]

ATP and WTA should not allow tournaments in locations where certain players are excluded from being able to play.

[Mahboob Khan]

Common-sense dictates that there ought to be one religion sanctioned by God. It cannot be that Lord God who is constant chosen different religions for different times. The core message ought to be constant and one. Captain Karl, I have been enjoying your posts and would recommend that you read chapter 2 (The Cow), chapter 3 (Family of Imran), Chapter 5 (The Dining Table), and Chapter 19 (Al-Meryyam) of Holy Qura'an so that you understand the real Message of Islam. Islam as a religion existed prior to Muhammad, however, people were following different gods and the face of real Islam was shrouded in mystery. Let say that Judaism exists today but every body does not believe in it. In the past, I had quoted following verse from Surah Al-Shoorah:

"O Muhammad, I have enjoyned the same religion for you that I commanded Abraham to uphold, the same religion that I commanded Moses and Jesus to uphold .. that you worship me as One Allah .. and do not get divided in this deen".

Another example: The annual Hajj that Muslims perform in Mecca wasn't started by Muhammad. It was started by Ibraheem and his son Ismail. It is very clear that we -- the Muslims -- are the only true followers of Ibraheem for we believe him as he was -- not less, not more --.

Islam is also known as a "Deen-e-Ibraheem" the Religion of Abraham.

Entire Qura'an is full of references that Muhammad did not start a new religion. He merely continued on the process and completed the religion in which prior Prophets/Messengers played their due role.

[Mahboob Khan]

F.) Conclusion: Since Islam was founded in AD 610, it neither predated Judaism or Christianity.

The entire Qura'an is against the above statement. Just help yourself. Read the chapters that I indicated in my previous post.

Al-Qura'an is basis of Islam. There can't be any definition other than that found in Qura'an itself.

[Mahboob Khan]

excuse me?!? mahboob, i thought with your knowledge you'd know that ismaili's were indeed the only true followers of prophet muhammed. wow

did YOU know that after prophet muhammed made his revelations, and no one listened to him, that he told his followers that hazrat ali would be his follower? and that we were supposed to listen to him as he was our guide (imam)? that is what ismaili's believe in. but the other muslims dont believe that there was anyone after muhammed. so stop being biased.

you are right that judaism and christianity were created after different beliefs and not by allah, but if people want to believe in that and pray to it then so be it. we dont have a right to tell them they're wrong. HOWEVER, when they tell you that YOU are wrong (like this thread :D), or they think that YOUR religion is bad, then that is when you explain to them that they are wrong about your religion

Some of the Ismaili Shias said similar things about Hazrat Ali as Christians said about Jesus Christ that Jesus was God and/or son of God. Some Shias believes that Hazrat Ali was a Maula (God). I have nothing against Hazrat Ali. He was one of the four Caliphs so dear to Muhammad. I do believe that Hazrat Ali was an Imam, his sons, Hassan and Hussain, were Imams, and I am proud of sancrifices that Hussain gave in Karbala because in Karbala he saved Islam. Through his and his family's martyrdom we understood the meaning of "Zibhe Azeem" (the greatest sacrifice) because he completed Ismail's sacrifice. Having said, after the incident of Karbala, there was no need to divide Islam into two main sects -- Shia and Sunni --. I do not believe in these sects that's why I said that I am a Muslim.

[lcw]

Wow! I'm tempted to ridicule this revisionist history. I will refrain....

Here are some historical facts about the origins of Islam. (Source for much of this is <www.Equip.org>.)

A.) Before Islam
1. Mecca was polytheistic; Allah was just one of many gods.
2. Mohammed was battling depression, self-doubt, trauma; he was close to suicidal. (AD 610)
3. In one of his "down" times, M. retreated to a cave in Hira, where he claims the Angel Gabriel appeared to him and announced “M. is Allah’s Prophet”
4. Mohammed thought he was crazy. M.'s wife, Khadija, soothed him ... and was the visionary (the momentum) behind M. starting this new religion. [Ironic isn't it. A religion which puts women on a level with "property" was really ... invented by ... a woman (Khadija).]
5. About 3 years post-Hira, M. starts preaching (AD 613)

B.) Islam is established
1. Meccans were incensed at Mohammed for heresy against their gods. (The Meccans were going to -- at the very least -- run him out of town.)
2. M. fled to Ethiopia with his (roughly 15) followers (AD 617)
3. “Islam” grew to about 70. M. returned to Mecca & compromised over the "one god" thing.
4. Mohammed called 3 idols daughters of Allah [Sura 53:19,20] (Remember a recent book?)
5. Meccans nearly murdered Mohammed for retracting compromise. Mohammed claimed Satan deceived him into agreement. (After, the abrogated verses were known as the “Satanic Verses.”) The Meccans ran him out of town ... again.
6. After “Flight II” M. based in Medina, on northern trade route from Mecca.

C.) Islam’s Growth
1. From Medina, Mohammed & Islam grew in wealth and power by becoming a marauder, ransacking caravans, raping & murdering. (He would bind the men's hands and have them kneel in a shoulder to shoulder line. One-by-one Mohammed would offer to let the men live if they "converted" to Islam. If they refused, they were murdered on the spot.)
2. Islam grew in numbers through force; terrorizing the vanquished.

D.) Mohammeds successors led the bloody advances of Islam into ... Middle East ... Northern Africa ... Southern Europe ... Central Europe

E.) Since 1985, Muslims have persisted in jihad to “spread Islam” ... Khartoum, Sudan ... El-Kosheh, Egypt ... Rwanda ... Bosnia ... Kosovo ... Jakarta, Indonesia (a very “organized” jihad)

F.) Conclusion: Since Islam was founded in AD 610, it neither predated Judaism or Christianity.

This ... intra-Faith division ... is common. (Christians and Jews have it too.) It also contributes to misunderstandings. Thank you for clarifying where you stand.

- KK

KK:

For one to be credible, one must learn the subject from different sources and come to a reasonable conclusion.
The web site you mentioned is biased and can't be credible. For instance the notion that people were executed when they refused to convert to Islam is not accurate. When Muslims invaded a country they allowed people to retain their religion providing they paid higher taxes. That's why you find Christians and Jews still living in the Muslim world.

You and I can demean and down play Islam all we want since we are not Muslims, but a religion that finds over one billion followers all over the world must offer some values. Mind you, Islam is growing faster than any other religion despite the empires of Pat Robertson, Jerry falwell and the likes.
Granted the Jihadists are terrorists and criminals, but let's not go too far by demeaning Islam for their wrong doing.

[nickybol]

Another example: The annual Hajj that Muslims perform in Mecca wasn't started by Muhammad. It was started by Ibraheem and his son Ismail. It is very clear that we -- the Muslims -- are the only true followers of Ibraheem for we believe him as he was -- not less, not more --.

The hajj is not a muslim thing. There were already pelgrimages by the polytheists to Mecca, and Mohammed made a deal with the important people in Mecca because Mecca didn`t want to lose all the revenues they gained from the Hajj every year. The Muslims just adopted the Hajj.

[tennis-n-sc]

I don't really care what religion any is or practices or believes or whatever. The problem, well documented, is that Islam considers itself a government as well. The radical and not so radical believers of Islam want the country in which they reside to be governed by the heads of the Islam. No seperation of church and state. That flies in the face of most democratic governments and will cause serious conflict those countries before it is over. France, for instance, is having problems now. There have been instances here that are troublesome . We'll see.

[nickybol]

Yes indeed, there is no seperation of state and religion in Islam. That can cause much trouble in countries that are not only inhabited by Muslims.

[Kaptain Karl]

For one to be credible, one must learn the subject from different sources and come to a reasonable conclusion."One?" Where do you get off assuming such a pedantic stance with me? "If you cannot refute the argument, attack the source" appears to be your tactic this time. (I'm fine with your approach. Just finish an argument for once, please....)

The web site you mentioned is biased and can't be credible.Contrary to popular claims, I dont' believe you can find a site without bias. Big deal. You assert Equip.org isn't credible. Okay, Mr. Perry Mason. Back up your assertion. Where are the facts wrong? How does Equip.org twist the facts I presented? Where does it lose its credibility? (And provide some "credible" sources of your own, please.)

FWIW, here are some additional sources for you. Oddly, they are all largely in agreement with the single source I originally provided:
<www.Ligonier.org>
The Great Divide Alvin Schmidt
Why I Am Not A Muslim, Ibn Warraq (former Muslim)
Waging Peace, (Acck! I can't remember!)
The Cross and the Crescent, Dr. R.C. Sproul

For instance the notion that people were executed when they refused to convert to Islam is not accurate.Calling it "executed" is candy coating it. They were murdered. Where are your sources that this isn't factual (Mr. Mason)?

You and I can demean .... "Demean???" If the facts are the facts ... and that's "demeaning" ... so be it. I don't see facts as "demeaning". If you choose to, that's your problem.

[I just remembered. You're the same User who saw extremism in the demographic data about Indonesia. I'm probably wasting time, trying to have a resonable discussion with you....]

... a religion that finds over one billion followers all over the world must offer some values.So numbers equate somehow to credibility??? If that's the case we puny humans should be aspiring to be ... cockroaches!

Granted the Jihadists are terrorists and criminals, but let's not go too far by demeaning Islam for their wrong doing.It must be difficult to try to balance yourself so shakily in "The Middle" on subjects of importance. Where are you really coming from, lcw? Really!??

- KK

[Mahboob Khan]

The hajj is not a muslim thing. There were already pelgrimages by the polytheists to Mecca, and Mohammed made a deal with the important people in Mecca because Mecca didn`t want to lose all the revenues they gained from the Hajj every year. The Muslims just adopted the Hajj.

Hajj is one of the five pillars of Muslim faith. Indeed it's the core of Muslim faith that "there is no God but Allah .. only One Allah".

At least you admitted that Hajj in some form existed prior to Muhammad. Obviously, when Muhammad was declared as a Messenger of Allah by Allah, he removed all the other gods (idols) from Ka'aba, and refined the Hajj as an annual ritual for followers of Islam as advised by Allah. The Hajj existed prior to Muhammad but it wasn't performed the way Abraham and Ismail had envisioned. Similarly, (the concept of) Islam existed prior to Muhammad but it wasn't practiced the way it was intended by Allah through earlier Prophets the last being Jesus Christ because most of their true Gospels got discarded by Roman Kings and others and many of the prophets of the past got killed prematurely. Roman King Constantine kept those Gospels (Mark, Mathew, Luke, John) that suited his kingdom! Let's not forget that these four Gospels were written by men recording their reflections about Jesus Christ; and those Scriptures that alluded to Islam and/or referred to "Ahmad" as a last Messenger of Allah, got thrown out either by Jews and/or by Roman Kings. Let's also not forget that some important Prophets were killed by Jews including Jesus Christ (however, according to Muslim faith Jesus was ascended by Allah before he could be killed, "Essa was not killed, not crucifixed, but it appeared to them so" some sort of illusion so to speak and this illusion is also mentioned in the "Gospel of Judas" which is under intense study now a days. Did it ever occur to you that when Muhammad was a teen-ager a Christian Scholar, Waraqa Bin Nofal told his uncle that I see signs of Prophethood in Muhammad -- those signs that alluded to in ancient Bible -- and take care of this boy. If through Al-Qura'an you can prove that Islam did not exist prior to Muhammad, I will convert to a religion of your liking.

Sir, I never lied to you about any tennis tips. Why would I lie to you about my religion Al-Islam and my Book Al-Qura'an which differentiates right from wrong, light from darkness, truth from falsehood? Why would I?

[astra]

I don't really care what religion any is or practices or believes or whatever. The problem, well documented, is that Islam considers itself a government as well. The radical and not so radical believers of Islam want the country in which they reside to be governed by the heads of the Islam. No seperation of church and state. That flies in the face of most democratic governments and will cause serious conflict those countries before it is over. France, for instance, is having problems now. There have been instances here that are troublesome . We'll see.
That is a very true remark. I hope (believe) Islam and Muslims will undergo reforms as the Christianity had to in order to become more tolerant. The religion should be only in the spiritual sphere. In more countries, the Muslim minority figths (by terror means many times) to establish an Islamic state.

[nickybol]

Hajj is one of the five pillars of Muslim faith. Indeed it's the core of Muslim faith that "there is no God but Allah .. only One Allah".

At least you admitted that Hajj in some form existed prior to Muhammad. Obviously, when Muhammad was declared as a Messenger of Allah by Allah, he removed all the other gods (idols) from Ka'aba, and refined the Hajj as an annual ritual for followers of Islam as advised by Allah. The Hajj existed prior to Muhammad but it wasn't performed the way Abraham and Ismail had envisioned. Similarly, (the concept of) Islam existed prior to Muhammad but it wasn't practiced the way it was intended by Allah through earlier Prophets the last being Jesus Christ because most of their true Gospels got discarded by Roman Kings and others and many of the prophets of the past got killed prematurely. Roman King Constantine kept those Gospels (Mark, Mathew, Luke, John) that suited his kingdom! Let's not forget that these four Gospels were written by men recording their reflections about Jesus Christ; and those Scriptures that alluded to Islam and/or referred to "Ahmad" as a last Messenger of Allah, got thrown out either by Jews and/or by Roman Kings. Let's also not forget that some important Prophets were killed by Jews including Jesus Christ (however, according to Muslim faith Jesus was ascended by Allah before he could be killed, "Essa was not killed, not crucifixed, but it appeared to them so" some sort of illusion so to speak and this illusion is also mentioned in the "Gospel of Judas" which is under intense study now a days. Did it ever occur to you that when Muhammad was a teen-ager a Christian Scholar, Waraqa Bin Nofal told his uncle that I see signs of Prophethood in Muhammad -- those signs that alluded to in ancient Bible -- and take care of this boy. If through Al-Qura'an you can prove that Islam did not exist prior to Muhammad, I will convert to a religion of your liking.

Sir, I never lied to you about any tennis tips. Why would I lie to you about my religion Al-Islam and my Book Al-Qura'an which differentiates right from wrong, light from darkness, truth from falsehood? Why would I?

You say Islam existed before Mohammed. I don`t think so. There existed some kind of henotheism, with Allah as the most important god, but not with Allah as the one and onliest god.

Constantine wasn`t a king. The last Roman king was, if I remember correctly, Tarquinius Superbus, and he got killed a few hundred years before Christ. Constantine was an emperror, a Roman "Caesar", like there were dozens like Augustus, Docletianus, Theodocius (an important one for Christianity!)

Constantine indeed organised the concilium Nicae, where a lot of gospels were not allowed in the bible. He also completely banned another Christian kind of belief, the Arianist who are Christians as well but don`t believe in the holy trinity.

I have to go now, will finish this post later...

[kevhen]

Love God and love your neighbor. It's ok to love tennis too.

[nickybol]

How do you love god? How should one do that?

[nickybol]

Continuing my last post:

many gospels were dismissed before Constantine by the early church fathers. Why should I proof it through Quran? Quran is not a very objective source I think.

Mahboob I don`t think you lie. I just think you don`t know bother. If you live in a Muslim country like Pakistan your whole life and only hear and see and experience Muslim things, you soon start to believe it`s true. If you grow up in a Christian world you start to believe in Christianity. The process is called indoctrination.

[Ben42]

Although this little digression through the Koran and New Testament has been interesting, it doesn’t address the point I was making.

My point was that when MK attempted to delegitimize Israel by saying it was created on Arab lands he was dismissing the 2500+ years of continuous Jewish presence in and around the current area of Israel.

In contrast, Arabs (native speakers of Arabic) only started living in what is now Israel after Mohammed and the spread of Islam. (starting around 650 - 700 or so CE?) Jews had been living on that land for over 1500 years already. So again I’ll ask, how is Israel on Arab land?

These are facts backed up by archeological and historic evidence. Can MK or TennisNerd refute any of these facts other than with a religious text?

[PugArePeopleToo]

Sir, I never lied to you about any tennis tips. Why would I lie to you about my religion Al-Islam and my Book Al-Qura'an which differentiates right from wrong, light from darkness, truth from falsehood? Why would I?

You wouldn't. But just like your tennis tips, you could be wrong.

[schaefferm46]

if you are still talking about jewish people taking the land that the muslims falsely belive to be theirs i think u have to take a look around the world to see where eles land was taken from people the native americans were taken from their land. I think your post should be no where near this forum and i think u need to respect jewish people along with other religons becuase if you give them your respect they will give you your respect i saw this from the standpoint of a jew. on this fourm i would have no problem wiht you being islamic until you start to accuse people of one religon.

[Z-Man]

Wow, I can't believe I actually agree with Phil and Kaptain Karl in the same thread. Maybe both of you aren't so nutty after all...

This thread is disappointing because in the back of my head, I have harbored the prejudice that since tennis players in America tend to be more educated and affluent than the general populace, it would be the same in other countries. From there I assumed that the more educated and affluent people in Muslim countries would be moderates who see through all of the rhetoric and media manipulation. I guess that's just not realistic. But kudos to the Muslim governments. They deserve the David Copperfield award for convincing their people that Jews existing anywhere is a bigger problem than their own Kleptocratic governments. Sadly, saber-rattling is an effective political ploy--even in America. It's like the Cold War all over again--or worse, it's like Orwell's 1984 has finally arrived. Maybe this is just payback for Christian Europe's behavior during it's own Crusades / Dark Ages phase.

Permit me to draw a tennis analogy (since this is a tennis chat board): When you lose, it's a lot easier to say your opponent cheated or your racquet sux or your strings were too lose than it is to look at yourself and figure out what's wrong. That's why so many people get stuck at 3.5.

World governments never get past 3.5.

[Mahboob Khan]

I will not mind sharing my house, provided I have enough space, with a Jewish brother. The problem will start if my Jewish brother finds ways and means to evict me from my own house and take possession of it!!! That's what they did to Palestinians!!! Sir, Islam is the only religion which recognizes earlier Holy Books and earlier Prophets because earlier Books and earlier Prophets were part of the same process! Because earlier Books and/or parts of earlier books got discarded and/or revised thereby changing the original text, Allah sent down Al-Qura'an which is the latest Handbook on religious matters -- a Handbook that contains the original/applicable parts from the earlier Books.

I read one poster said that since I was born Muslim I talk Islam. Yes, some 20 years back this thought came to my mind also that since I was born in a Muslim family I am a Muslim. That's where I started reading Bible -- Old and New Testament. After reading Bible, my faith is even firmer that Islam is the only true religion on earth. With kind regards,

[Kaptain Karl]

If through Al-Qura'an you can prove that Islam did not exist prior to Muhammad, I will convert to a religion of your liking.The interesting thing about the Bible is its validity isn't merely internal. The many prophecies of the Old and New Testaments which have been historically documented allow the Bible to be validated externally.

After reading Bible, my faith is even firmer that Islam is the only true religion on earth.I actually have more respect for this statement than you might expect. I have little regard for followers of the "all inclusive" faiths. I have more regard for those who really believe their faith is the only right way.

Mahboob, I read those "chapters" of the Quran you recommended. They reinforced my confidence in the truths of Christianity (as if I needed any reinforcing). Thanks.

- KK

[Phil]

The interesting thing about the Bible is its validity isn't merely internal. The many prophecies of the Old and New Testaments which have been historically documented allow the Bible to be validated externally.

I actually have more respect for this statement than you might expect. I have little regard for followers of the "all inclusive" faiths. I have more regard for those who really believe their faith is the only right way.

Mahboob, I read those "chapters" of the Quran you recommended. They reinforced my confidence in the truths of Christianity (as if I needed any reinforcing). Thanks.

- KK

Reading KK and Mahboob argue that one's religion is "better" or "truer" than the other is like comparing Stalin to Mao in terms of body counts...BOTH are as twisted as they come. Or, arguing which character- Mickey Mouse or Snoopy-is more "realistic"; neither are, at all.

Absolutely pointless, and pretty much a microcosm of the bigotry and conflict that exists over religions...One poster mistakenly wrote that Islam was a cancer on the world. The real cancer on this world is religion of any type, of the devout and fundumentalist variety. This is what promotes intolorance and, ultimately, murder.

[Kaptain Karl]

The problem will start if my Jewish brother finds ways and means to evict me from my own house and take possession of it!!! That's what they did to Palestinians!!!The Arab countries have never recognized the "country" of Palestine. It doesn't exist. It never did. The region you call "Palestine" was -- and pretty much still is -- a wasteland.

A friend of mine just returned from a trip to Israel, where he was also allowed to cross into Palestinian territory one day. His observation: "Everything Israel touches flourishes. What Palestinians possess is unfinished and filthy rubbish."

Palestinians are the Arabs' "useful idiots." They are your dupes. You *use* them as your political puppets.

(I've gotta go to sleep. I have a Ladder match in the AM. Goodnight....)

- KK

[nickybol]

Reading KK and Mahboob argue that one's religion is "better" or "truer" than the other is like comparing Stalin to Mao in terms of body counts...BOTH are as twisted as they come. Or, arguing which character- Mickey Mouse or Snoopy-is more "realistic"; neither are, at all.

Absolutely pointless, and pretty much a microcosm of the bigotry and conflict that exists over religions...One poster mistakenly wrote that Islam was a cancer on the world. The real cancer on this world is religion of any type, of the devout and fundumentalist variety. This is what promotes intolorance and, ultimately, murder.
Well spoken. Phil really sees what is happening in the world.

[ohplease]

Although this little digression through the Koran and New Testament has been interesting, it doesn’t address the point I was making.

My point was that when MK attempted to delegitimize Israel by saying it was created on Arab lands he was dismissing the 2500+ years of continuous Jewish presence in and around the current area of Israel.

In contrast, Arabs (native speakers of Arabic) only started living in what is now Israel after Mohammed and the spread of Islam. (starting around 650 - 700 or so CE?) Jews had been living on that land for over 1500 years already. So again I’ll ask, how is Israel on Arab land?

These are facts backed up by archeological and historic evidence. Can MK or TennisNerd refute any of these facts other than with a religious text?

There's a reason the "we were here first" line of reasoning is hardly ever used in arguments about land. Why?

Someone is always there before someone else. The current American population and its displaced Native Americans, for example.

[lcw]

The Palestine. It doesn't exist. It never did. The region you call "Palestine" was -- and pretty much still is -- a wasteland.- KK

Not true of course unless you read the wrong history books. You don't need to refer to ancient history to verify that Palestine is a very ancient country, but the British empire who occupied the region till the 1940's had it under the name of Palestine as well.

A friend of mine just returned from a trip to Israel, where he was also allowed to cross into Palestinian territory one day. His observation: "Everything Israel touches flourishes. What Palestinians possess is unfinished and filthy rubbish.".- KK

True but unfair. If you pump 10 billions of American tax payers money each year into any small country, that country will flourish and prosper. Israel receives more American aid than all countries in the world combined.
What do the Palestinians get? 250 millions.
Your statement is not only untrue but it is insulting to man kind because it implies either the Israeli are a superior race or the Palestinians are the scum of the earth. A true Christian like you should believe that God made all of us equal.

Palestinians are the Arabs' "useful idiots." They are your dupes. You *use* them as your political puppets.- KK

Correct and they are also the world's "useful idiots." . They were dealt a bad hand , marginalized, used and abused by the world community as a whole. Feel free to call them terrorists, idiots and second class human beings if you like but history can't and will not lie.

One last world. Please spare yourself the effort to call me names or accuse me of anti X or pro Y because first I am neither, and second that won't change the facts. I choose to engage in an open discussion with you because I sense you are honest and educated.
Peace.

[chiru]

"wa idha sami'ullaghwa a'radu anhu wa qaalu lana a'maluna wa lakum a'malukum salamun alaikum la nabtaghil jahileen." If my hifz serves me right this is in surat al qasas. I urge my fellow muslims to adopt this policy that i shall adopt from now on. I don't believe unless we meet in person any good can come of this. i just see people getting angrier and angrier. in such a forum its impossible to justly answer any of the issues. from now on im sticking to tennis.

[Dedans Penthouse]

"wa idha sami'ullaghwa a'radu anhu wa qaalu lana a'maluna wa lakum a'malukum salamun alaikum la nabtaghil jahileen." If my hifz serves me right this is in surat al qasas. I urge my fellow muslims to adopt this policy of mine from now on.
Hey! You forgot about the 'secret' handshake!!!

LMAO~!

[Kaptain Karl]

Emphasis mine....

Reading KK and Mahboob argue that one's religion is "better" or "truer" than the other is like comparing Stalin to Mao in terms of body counts...BOTH are as twisted as they come. <snip>

Absolutely pointless, and pretty much a microcosm of the bigotry and conflict that exists over religions...One poster mistakenly wrote that Islam was a cancer on the world. The real cancer on this world is religion of any type, of the devout and fundumentalist variety. This is what promotes intolorance and, ultimately, murder.Phil you amuse me. I wonder if you realized how judgmental, bigoted and intolerant your own post reads? But thanks for being an example for us all....

- KK

[Kaptain Karl]

Not true of course unless you read the wrong history books. You don't need to refer to ancient history to verify that Palestine is a very ancient country, but the British empire who occupied the region till the 1940's had it under the name of Palestine as well.You persist in contradicting yourself. Is it a "country" or a "region"? Yes, the region has had the name, but when was the country founded? What were it's founding documents or principles? When and how was it chartered? Please provide some evidence for your claims.

True but unfair.HUH??? Oh that's right. You're the poster who believes facts alone carry some sort of ... stigma. (Geez!)

If you pump 10 billions of American tax payers money each year into any small country, that country will flourish and prosper.This is not necessarily true. We've certainly made some pretty "bad investments" from an International Aid perspective. Look at Venezuela, South Viet Nam, Haiti....

Israel receives more American aid than all countries in the world combined.Source for this "factoid" please?

The Israelis have vision, passion and a work ethic to get fabulous things done with those monies. Israel is a very good "investment" of our aid.

What do the Palestinians get? 250 millions.No. Everthing I've found shows it to be at least $100MM more than that. (Are you just making up these numbers?)

Your statement is not only untrue ... Please make up your mind. Just one paragraph earlier you posted I was accurate.

... but it is insulting to man kind because it implies either the Israeli are a superior race or the Palestinians are the scum of the earth.No. You may have inferred that; but I did not imply it. (And how again is it that objective facts are "insulting"???)

A true Christian like you should believe that God made all of us equal.Now you not only will not answer my "Where are you coming from?" question, but you presume to tell me how I should believe? I *know* my beliefs. What are yours?

As I asked at the top of Page 8 of this thread, "It must be difficult to try to balance yourself so shakily in "The Middle" on subjects of importance. Where are you really coming from, lcw? Really!??" I'd really like an answer.

<edit> More plainly: You profess to "be" a Christian. You also try to tell me (twice in this thread) how *I* should think or behave as a Christian. What do you mean when you post you are a Christian? (Really.) </edit>

Correct and they are also the world's "useful idiots." . They were dealt a bad hand , marginalized, used and abused by the world community as a whole. Feel free to call them terrorists, idiots and second class human beings if you like but history can't and will not lie.Apparently you are not aware of the meaning of the "useful idiot" phrase. Please stop leaping to incorrect conclusions about my thinking.

One last world. Please spare yourself the effort to call me names or accuse me of anti X or pro Y because first I am neither, and second that won't change the facts. I choose to engage in an open discussion with you because I sense you are honest and educated. 1 - I called you "Perry Mason" because you placed yourself in the position of "ruling" about my beliefs and motives. I did mean to "goad" you ... not insult you. [The synonym for "goad" was filtered ... cuz it's an epithet when used differently. Oops!]
2 - Suddenly you are concerned about "facts"? This is perplexing....
3 - I'm still trying to maintain the open discussion. Some give-and-take would be nice ... instead of you merely *judging* the quality of my arguments. (What I mean is ... would you please answer some of the questions directed toward you...?)

- KK

[PugArePeopleToo]

Emphasis mine....

Phil you amuse me. I wonder if you realized how judgmental, bigoted and intolerant your own post reads? But thanks for being an example for us all....

- KK

Your faith or MK's faith dictated no one else but you have the absolute truth. If your faith is true, then MK's must be false. Conversely if MK's is true, yours must be false. While you two can be polite about it, in your mind MK is practicing a false religion, and in MK's mind you are practicing a false religion. Isn't that also judgmental, bigoted, and intolerant? At least Phil is to the point.

[Ben42]

Not true of course unless you read the wrong history books. You don't need to refer to ancient history to verify that Palestine is a very ancient country, but the British empire who occupied the region till the 1940's had it under the name of Palestine as well.


Can you find any reference to the "ancient country" of Palestine from before 1948? Any evidence of a national identity? Literature? Music? Anything to differentiate the Arabs living in that area from other Arabs in the Middle East? Good luck.


True but unfair. If you pump 10 billions of American tax payers money each year into any small country, that country will flourish and prosper. Israel receives more American aid than all countries in the world combined.
What do the Palestinians get? 250 millions.
Your statement is not only untrue but it is insulting to man kind because it implies either the Israeli are a superior race or the Palestinians are the scum of the earth. A true Christian like you should believe that God made all of us equal.
.


Actually, Israel gets about $3 billion a year from the US. The Palestinian Authority gets about $1 billion from the US and EU plus more from the other countries and the UN.

[PugArePeopleToo]

Can you find any reference to the "ancient country" of Palestine from before 1948? Any evidence of a national identity? Literature? Music? Anything to differentiate the Arabs living in that area from other Arabs in the Middle East? Good luck.





Actually, Israel gets about $3 billion a year from the US. The Palestinian Authority gets about $1 billion from the US and EU plus more from the other countries and the UN.

If you add in all aids from the US, $10 billion is correct.


http://www.fas.org/man/crs/IB85066.pdf

[Ben42]

No. Israel gets about $3 billion in AID. The rest is in the form of donations, the sale of Israel bonds or loans.

Israel has never defaulted on any loan.

[tennis_nerd22]

guys, its okay to believe in your own religion, but at the same time, you cant be prejudice to the religion of others, nor can they be prejudice and racist to yours. look at me, im muslim but i go to a catholic school :) my point? you can believe in your religion and learn about other people's religions, so that you understand them and can live in peace with them. not wage war because they believe in something else

thats the bottom line in this thread IMO

[tennis-n-sc]

guys, its okay to believe in your own religion, but at the same time, you cant be prejudice to the religion of others, nor can they be prejudice and racist to yours. look at me, im muslim but i go to a catholic school :) my point? you can believe in your religion and learn about other people's religions, so that you understand them and can live in peace with them. not wage war because they believe in something else

thats the bottom line in this thread IMO

Can't argue with that. However, you've got several million of your fellow Muslims that would strongly disagree with you. And this, of course, puts a negative generalization on the whole Muslim religion.

[lcw]

No. Israel gets about $3 billion in AID. The rest is in the form of donations, the sale of Israel bonds or loans.

Israel has never defaulted on any loan.

You can deny it all you want even when people like PugArePeopleToo post a link with hard facts. Israel gets closer to 4 billion/year in cash alone no question asked. In addition the billions of loans given to Israel are interest free loans. In addition Israel gets Airplanes, tanks, missiles and ammunition for free. Have you priced any of these lately?
It is one thing for a beggars to ask for money but it is nauseating when the beggar is ungrateful after receiving it.

Israel has never defaulted on any loan.

Yes because they have yet to pay one back. When you receive a 30 year interest free loan, you don't have to pay it over night.

[Phil]

Emphasis mine....

Phil you amuse me. I wonder if you realized how judgmental, bigoted and intolerant your own post reads? But thanks for being an example for us all....

- KK

I am a COUNTER-bigot. I am against religions or ideologies which elevate those who believe in them, and marginalize or denigrate all those who don't. And yes, I AM intolerant to those types of beliefs. Not all religious people or religions think like this, but those who DO deserve nothing but scorn.

The names you called me, apply TO A TEE to you and the twisted myths that you cling to, and use as a premise to lower everyone else. You and Mahboob wave the ultimate insecurity blanket of fundumentalist religiosity.

[Rob_C]

No. You may have inferred that; but I did not imply it. (And how again is it that objective facts are "insulting"???)



I believe his statement was in response to your post where you said your friend said something to the effect of Everything Israel touches flourishes, What Palestinians possess is unfinished and filthy rubbish.

On a different note, on the news today I saw how Brazil became totally independent from using oil as a source of fuel by converting sugar cane to ethanol, which produces a cheaper, higher octane gas. I think it even burns cleaner also. If they can do it, I think the US can and should do it also. Or at least start importing ethanol from Brazil. Even though Haliburton would probably find a way to profit from the new arrangement.

[lcw]

I am a COUNTER-bigot. I am against religions or ideologies which elevate those who believe in them, and marginalize or denigrate all those who don't. And yes, I AM intolerant to those types of beliefs. Not all religious people or religions think like this, but those who DO deserve nothing but scorn.

The names you called me, apply TO A TEE to you and the twisted myths that you cling to, and use as a premise to lower everyone else. You and Mahboob wave the ultimate insecurity blanket of fundumentalist religiosity.

Ditto.

[Ben42]

You can deny it all you want even when people like PugArePeopleToo post a link with hard facts. Israel gets closer to 4 billion/year in cash alone no question asked. In addition the billions of loans given to Israel are interest free loans. In addition Israel gets Airplanes, tanks, missiles and ammunition for free. Have you priced any of these lately?
It is one thing for a beggars to ask for money but it is nauseating when the beggar is ungrateful after receiving it.



So is it $4billion or $10 billion? Make up your mind.

And free airplanes, tanks, missiles, and ammo? Really? Free? From whom? Israel makes its own arms. It's one of the leading exporters of military arms in the world. I'd love to see a cite of that little "fact."

You are also wrong on the subject of loans. Yes, some loans from the US have been forgiven or repaid from the aid moneys. But the bulk of loans Israel has gotten have been from the World Bank and those are certainly not "interest free" and require repayment.

[gscone]

WHen is this thread going to die?

[equinox]

When someones says something totally offensive and it gets reported.

[PugArePeopleToo]

So is it $4billion or $10 billion? Make up your mind.

And free airplanes, tanks, missiles, and ammo? Really? Free? From whom? Israel makes its own arms. It's one of the leading exporters of military arms in the world. I'd love to see a cite of that little "fact."

You are also wrong on the subject of loans. Yes, some loans from the US have been forgiven or repaid from the aid moneys. But the bulk of loans Israel has gotten have been from the World Bank and those are certainly not "interest free" and require repayment.

Israel can make pretty good small arms, and pretty good electronic stuffs, but the real hardware such as jets are from the US, or are with US assistance, Merkava for example. Most of US military sales to Israel are pay through military grants. These grants do not count as aid, but are in fact aid to Israel. Loans from the US have been forgiven, so those are aid too. If I am not mistaken, most of the US loans has a no repayment provision in them, thus making them preferential loans, therefore aid. If you look at Table 2 Recent US aid to Israel, from the link I provided, you will see it's more than $3 billion.

[Ben42]

Israel can make pretty good small arms, and pretty good electronic stuffs, but the real hardware such as jets are from the US, or are with US assistance, Merkava for example. Most of US military sales to Israel are pay through military grants. These grants do not count as aid, but are in fact aid to Israel. Loans from the US have been forgiven, so those are aid too. If I am not mistaken, most of the US loans has a no repayment provision in them, thus making them preferential loans, therefore aid. If you look at Table 2 Recent US aid to Israel, from the link I provided, you will see it's more than $3 billion.

To the 95% of TW readers who could not care less about this, I apologize for the long post.

Ok, Pug. Once again. You are misreading the report you linked to.

From pages 2-3 of that report:

Israeli Finance Minister Yaacov Neeman met with some House of Representatives Appropriations Committee members in January 1998 to negotiate a $600 million reduction in Israel’s $3 billion in annual aid by decreasing the $1.2 billion economic aid to zero over a 10-year period and by increasing Israel’s $1.8 billion military aid up to $2.4 billion in the same period. The United States would continue to allow Israel to spend about 26.3% of the military aid in Israel rather than in the United States for U.S. produced military equipment Israel is an exception to the general practice that all U.S. foreign military financing is spent in the United States. Beginning in FY1999, Congress has reduced the amount of ESF going to Israel by $120million per year and increased the amount of FMF by $60 million per year.”


Like I said before, Israel gets about $3 billion a year in aid. “Table 2” in the report shows this. The "ASHA" and "All Other" columns show loans, not aid or grants.And again, as I said before, Israel repays her loans. From the same report:

In 1987, Israel owed the U.S. government about $10 billion (having paid off the other $5 billion), $6 billion of which was military loans bearing interest rates over 10%. In 1988 and 1989, Israel refinanced about $5.5 billion in military loans by borrowing money from U.S. commercial institutions at interest rates below 10%, and paying off the U.S. government. As provided in P.L. 100-202, the U.S. government guaranteed up to 90% of the commercial loans. As of December 31, 2001, Israel owed the U.S. government $1.977 billion in direct economic and military loans, and the U.S. government has a contingent liability (guaranteed loans) for another $2.902 billion for the refinanced military loans and Ex-Im Bank loans, and an additional $9.659 billion in contingent liabilities for the loan guarantees for settling Soviet Jews in Israel.

So much for “interest free loans” that don’t get paid back, eh, lcw? (I can tell you what I find nauseating)

The US funding for weapons programs, such as the Merkava tank you mentioned or the Lavi fighter, either come from that same $3billion aid package (not in addition to) or from the US Defense Dept. The US funds those programs because we get access to the technology that’s developed. It’s an investment. That’s not aid or a grant. That’s providing a service and a product and being paid for it.

So can we put this to rest? Israel get about $3billion a year in aid, the bulk in military aid. Not $4billion, not $10billion. With that aid Israel buys aircraft and other weapons from US companies as they are required. You are trying to make it sound like they get a $3 billion blank check and then they also get a bunch of free airplanes and tanks and stuff on top of that. Plus interest free loans they never have to pay back too. I don’t know, maybe you’re an ex-Enron accountant so you just add the numbers however suits you, but that’s not reality.


Israel gets a lot of aid from the US, I’m not denying it. If you and lcw or anyone else doesn’t like the idea that we provide them with it, I don’t have a problem with that. Make your argument. But don’t inflate the numbers and make misleading statements to make your point. It just weakens your case.

[Kaptain Karl]

Your faith or MK's faith dictated no one else but you have the absolute truth. If your faith is true, then MK's must be false. Conversely if MK's is true, yours must be false. While you two can be polite about it, in your mind MK is practicing a false religion, and in MK's mind you are practicing a false religion.All accurate. But then you draw an improper conclusion....

Isn't that also judgmental, bigoted, and intolerant?No. "Judgmental" carries a conotation of disparagement. I do not disparage Mahboob Khan ... and I don't perceive that he does this to me. We do "judge" each others' faiths, but that is because we are both thinking reasoning individuals. (Maybe the distinctionn is too subtle for you...?)

"Bigoted" refers to an obstinant adherance to beliefs ... regardless of evidence to the contrary. Even though Mahboob Khan and I disagree, we have each studied the other's faith and are making reasoned judgments. That's not bigotry.

"Intolerance" refers to an unwillingness to grant freedom of personal or religious expression. If either Mahboob or I were practicing intolerance, our exchanges would be more ... venomous ... heated and angry. (Kinda like Phil's post was.)

- KK

[Kaptain Karl]

Ben42 - Nice work...!

lcw - I'm still awaiting some answers to my direct questions to you....

- KK

[PugArePeopleToo]

To the 95% of TW readers who could not care less about this, I apologize for the long post.

Ok, Pug. Once again. You are misreading the report you linked to.

From pages 2-3 of that report:




Like I said before, Israel gets about $3 billion a year in aid. “Table 2” in the report shows this. The "ASHA" and "All Other" columns show loans, not aid or grants.And again, as I said before, Israel repays her loans. From the same report:



So much for “interest free loans” that don’t get paid back, eh, lcw? (I can tell you what I find nauseating)

The US funding for weapons programs, such as the Merkava tank you mentioned or the Lavi fighter, either come from that same $3billion aid package (not in addition to) or from the US Defense Dept. The US funds those programs because we get access to the technology that’s developed. It’s an investment. That’s not aid or a grant. That’s providing a service and a product and being paid for it.

So can we put this to rest? Israel get about $3billion a year in aid, the bulk in military aid. Not $4billion, not $10billion. With that aid Israel buys aircraft and other weapons from US companies as they are required. You are trying to make it sound like they get a $3 billion blank check and then they also get a bunch of free airplanes and tanks and stuff on top of that. Plus interest free loans they never have to pay back too. I don’t know, maybe you’re an ex-Enron accountant so you just add the numbers however suits you, but that’s not reality.


Israel gets a lot of aid from the US, I’m not denying it. If you and lcw or anyone else doesn’t like the idea that we provide them with it, I don’t have a problem with that. Make your argument. But don’t inflate the numbers and make misleading statements to make your point. It just weakens your case.


If I am guaranteeing loans to you, I am aiding you. No? And what return on investment did we get out of Lavi program? Having the Israelie selling the technology that we paid to developed to the Chinese is a pretty bad investment.

[PugArePeopleToo]

All accurate. But then you draw an improper conclusion....

No. "Judgmental" carries a conotation of disparagement. I do not disparage Mahboob Khan ... and I don't perceive that he does this to me. We do "judge" each others' faiths, but that is because we are both thinking reasoning individuals. (Maybe the distinctionn is too subtle for you...?)

"Bigoted" refers to an obstinant adherance to beliefs ... regardless of evidence to the contrary. Even though Mahboob Khan and I disagree, we have each studied the other's faith and are making reasoned judgments. That's not bigotry.

"Intolerance" refers to an unwillingness to grant freedom of personal or religious expression. If either Mahboob or I were practicing intolerance, our exchanges would be more ... venomous ... heated and angry. (Kinda like Phil's post was.)

- KK


You are not judging MK as a person, it's like MK claims he befriended some jewish tennis coaches. However you judges his faith as false. Just like MK judges jews as a group evil. That is a lot worse.

[lcw]

To the 95% of TW readers who could not care less about this, I apologize for the long post.

Ok, Pug. Once again. You are misreading the report you linked to.

From pages 2-3 of that report:




Like I said before, Israel gets about $3 billion a year in aid. “Table 2” in the report shows this. The "ASHA" and "All Other" columns show loans, not aid or grants.And again, as I said before, Israel repays her loans. From the same report:



So much for “interest free loans” that don’t get paid back, eh, lcw? (I can tell you what I find nauseating)

The US funding for weapons programs, such as the Merkava tank you mentioned or the Lavi fighter, either come from that same $3billion aid package (not in addition to) or from the US Defense Dept. The US funds those programs because we get access to the technology that’s developed. It’s an investment. That’s not aid or a grant. That’s providing a service and a product and being paid for it.

So can we put this to rest? Israel get about $3billion a year in aid, the bulk in military aid. Not $4billion, not $10billion. With that aid Israel buys aircraft and other weapons from US companies as they are required. You are trying to make it sound like they get a $3 billion blank check and then they also get a bunch of free airplanes and tanks and stuff on top of that. Plus interest free loans they never have to pay back too. I don’t know, maybe you’re an ex-Enron accountant so you just add the numbers however suits you, but that’s not reality.


Israel gets a lot of aid from the US, I’m not denying it. If you and lcw or anyone else doesn’t like the idea that we provide them with it, I don’t have a problem with that. Make your argument. But don’t inflate the numbers and make misleading statements to make your point. It just weakens your case.

My last post on the subject I promise.

I present these samples to prove the facts.
They can be found at:
http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact As of November 1, 1997. Since then the annual give away still in force and the garanteed loans as well.

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240.

In addition, there is the more than $1.5 billion in private U.S. funds that go to Israel annually in the form of $1 billion in private tax-deductible donations and $500 million in Israeli bonds. The ability of Americans to make what amounts to tax-deductible contributions to a foreign government, made possible through a number of Jewish charities, does not exist with any other country. Nor do these figures include short- and long-term commercial loans from U.S. banks, which have been as high as $1 billion annually in recent years.

Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. Indeed, Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. With a per capita income of about $14,000, Israel ranks as the sixteenth wealthiest country in the world; Israelis enjoy a higher per capita income than oil-rich Saudi Arabia and are only slightly less well-off than most Western European countries.

For the fiscal year ending in September 30, 1997, the U.S. has given Israel $6.72 billion: $6.194 billion falls under Israel's foreign aid allotment and $526 million comes from agencies such as the Department of Commerce, the U.S. Information Agency and the Pentagon. The $6.72 billion figure does not include loan guarantees and annual compound interest totalling $3.122 billion the U.S. pays on money borrowed to give to Israel. It does not include the cost to U.S. taxpayers of IRS tax exemptions that donors can claim when they donate money to Israeli charities. (Donors claim approximately $1 billion in Federal tax deductions annually. This ultimately costs other U.S. tax payers $280 million to $390 million.)

When grant, loans, interest and tax deductions are added together for the fiscal year ending in September 30, 1997, our special relationship with Israel cost U.S. taxpayers over $10 billion.

Since 1949 the U.S. has given Israel a total of $83.205 billion. The interest costs borne by U.S. tax payers on behalf of Israel are $49.937 billion, thus making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $133.132 billion. This may mean that U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year than it has given to the average American citizen.

Although Israel is an "advanced, industrialized, technologically sophisticated country," it "receives more U.S. aid per capita annually than the total annual [Gross Domestic Product] per capita of several Arab states." Approximately a third of the entire U.S. foreign aid budget goes to Israel, "even though Israel comprises just…one-thousandth of the world's total population, and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes."

But that's not quite all. Receiving its annual foreign aid appropriation during the first month of the fiscal year, instead of in quarterly installments as do other recipients, is just another special privilege Congress has voted for Israel. It enables Israel to invest the money in U.S. Treasury notes. That means that the U.S., which has to borrow the money it gives to Israel, pays interest on the money it has granted to Israel in advance, while at the same time Israel is collecting interest on the money. That interest to Israel from advance payments adds another $1.650 billion to the total, making it $84,854,827,200.That's the number you should write down for total aid to Israel. And that's $14,346 each for each man, woman and child in Israel.

Further, friends of Israel never tire of saying that Israel has never defaulted on repayment of a U.S. government loan. It would be equally accurate to say Israel has never been required to repay a U.S. government loan. The truth of the matter is complex, and designed to be so by those who seek to conceal it from the U.S. taxpayer.

Most U.S. loans to Israel are forgiven, and many were made with the explicit understanding that they would be forgiven before Israel was required to repay them.


Peace.

[Kaptain Karl]

lcw - "Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics" comes to mind....

About two weeks ago I Googled this issue and came across your "source". When I read the following in their "About WRMEA" section, I decided they were not close to their claimed "non-partisanship".

The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs does not take partisan domestic political positions. As a solution to the Palestinian-Israeli dispute, it endorses U.N. Security Council Resolution 242´s land-for-peace formula, supported by seven successive U.S. presidents. In general, the Washington Report supports Middle East solutions which it judges to be consistent with the charter of the United Nations and traditional American support for human rights, self-determination, and fair play.

WRMEA is not a very credible source and very anti-Israel "loaded" in its commentary. (The UN is no friend to Israel ... and certainly not even-handed in its policies since the 1970s.) Where've you been?

P.S. I'm still awaiting some answers to my direct questions....

- KK

[MLoutch]

as the OP who started all of this i feel i need to add a few notes. Due to my work and travel I don't get a chance to check the boards very often and I just got back on this morning and saw this.

First I should clarify that i didn't mean to "punish" anyone or any people as a whole - i should have used "penalize" and my remark was directed at the Gov't and Tennis Federation of that country.

My point was this reaction from Indonesia is exactly the wrong thing to do and only feeds the hate. just look at the reaction on these boards! What would have happened if they AGREED to play in Israel - WOW wouldn't that be a great message! that would be a great step - FOR BOTH SIDES! maybe that makes me a bit naive but oh well.

On a personal side i have seen quite a few remarks made about me - that I am a Muslim hater, a Jew, anti this anti that, blah blah blah....etc
truth is i am half Russian and half French - on the Russian side some of my family came from southern Russia and many are Muslim (by birth and or marriage) as white Russians who settled there generations ago. I happen to be Russian Orthodox (Christian) myself and on the French side my family is your typical French Catholics (not saying alot as French Catholics as a whole can almost be called secular). My point is I am not anti anything - I was wanting to point out that it's wrong for countries to use sports to divide us - Would it not have been better for Indonesia to make a point for cooperation and understanding?

As for the line with the details about Indonesia I took that DIRECT from the press release (It was a BBC and reuters feed) - And I entered it just as a fact - nothing else - no hidden meaning - no remarks - just the fact the Indonesia is a large country, has lots of people, Muslim and do not have relations with Isreal -

[PugArePeopleToo]

lcw - "Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics" comes to mind....

About two weeks ago I Googled this issue and came across your "source". When I read the following in their "About WRMEA" section, I decided they were not close to their claimed "non-partisanship".

The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs does not take partisan domestic political positions. As a solution to the Palestinian-Israeli dispute, it endorses U.N. Security Council Resolution 242´s land-for-peace formula, supported by seven successive U.S. presidents. In general, the Washington Report supports Middle East solutions which it judges to be consistent with the charter of the United Nations and traditional American support for human rights, self-determination, and fair play.

WRMEA is not a very credible source and very anti-Israel "loaded" in its commentary. (The UN is no friend to Israel ... and certainly not even-handed in its policies since the 1970s.) Where've you been?

P.S. I'm still awaiting some answers to my direct questions....

- KK


Refute the statistics if you please. Here is one from CSM.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

[Kaptain Karl]

CSM? "Oh well..." I'd be more inclined to trust the numbers from ... The Jerusalem Post ... The Washington Times ... etc. (My point is, to pretend these "sources" are providing mere raw data -- which should have no agenda -- is just that; pretense.) You argue with your biased data ... but don't expect me to "buy" your source.

Here's the thing. I believe it is right to help defend Israel. Yes, they've done some stupid things -- especially lately. (Like agreeing to the Land For Peace thing.) But, until they completely blow it, in my mind, I'll support them. WRMEA and this kook quoted in th CSM link have diametrically opposing viewpoints to me ... so "of course" they'll analyze the numbers differently than me.

From your CSM "source" .... This is an estimate by Thomas Stauffer, a consulting economist in Washington. For decades, his analyses of the Middle East scene have made him a frequent thorn in the side of the Israel lobby.

I see no point in dissecting the "data" of an avowed activist. It's a waste of time. (Stauffer would probably say the same thing about the sources I -- or Ben42 -- provided.)

- KK

[PugArePeopleToo]

KK, no one here is denying there is aid to Israel, I am not offering any for or against aid to Israel argument. I only want to point out it is more than $3 billion. If you ask me, in an economy size of $10 trillion, $3 billion or $10 billion is not a heck of a lot. But whether you are supporting or opposing aid to anyone, you should find out how much is the actual figure. Splitting hair between aid and preferential loans guarantee is like Clinton saying "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is". But don't take my word for it, according to George Ball's estimate it's about $11 billion. George Ball was Undersecretary of State for economic affairs in Kennedy and Johnson Administration. Carter had intended appoint him Secretary of State, but did not. Not that it matter, but I'll take his word over Ben42, or yours on this subject, especially when refuting opposing view point is a waste of time is all you can come up with.

[Ben42]

blah blah blah ...


George Ball was Undersecretary of State for economic affairs in Kennedy and Johnson Administration. Carter had intended appoint him Secretary of State, but did not. Not that it matter, but I'll take his word over Ben42,

.... blah blah


The source I quoted was the one you yourself posted. So now you don't trust your own sources? Is the Library of Congress biased? (or just controlled by the Jewish Lobby?)

Like I said, you can argue the benefits of providing $3billion of aid to Israel every year. But when you (and your sources) inflate that number you just weaken your case.

[PugArePeopleToo]

The source I quoted was the one you yourself posted. So now you don't trust your own sources? Is the Library of Congress biased? (or just controlled by the Jewish Lobby?)

Like I said, you can argue the benefits of providing $3billion of aid to Israel every year. But when you (and your sources) inflate that number you just weaken your case.

Ben42, on the book, its $3 billion, but "U.S. aid to Israel has some unique aspects, such as loans with repayment waived, or a pledge to provide Israel with economic assistance equal to the amount Israel owes the United States for previous loans. Israel also receives special benefits that may not be available to other countries, such as the use of U.S. military assistance for research and development in the United States, the use of U.S. military assistance for military purchases in Israel, or receiving all its assistance in the first 30 days of the fiscal year rather than in 3 or 4 installments as other countries do.

In addition to the foreign assistance, the United States has provided Israel with $625 million to develop and deploy the Arrow anti-missile missile (an ongoing project), $1.3 billion to develop the Lavi aircraft (cancelled), $200 million to develop the Merkava tank (operative), $130 million to develop the high energy laser anti-missile system (ongoing), and other military projects. In FY2000 the United States provided Israel an additional $1.2 billion to fund the Wye agreement, and in FY2002 the United States provided an additional $200 million in anti-terror assistance." According to the unbias CRS. In real life, I imagine these things cost a few pennies. But what do I know, I am arguing with someone who is insisting these so called loans with no pay back provision are not aid. And you call me an Enron accountant?

[Phil]

Ben42, on the book, its $3 billion, but "U.S. aid to Israel has some unique aspects, such as loans with repayment waived, or a pledge to provide Israel with economic assistance equal to the amount Israel owes the United States for previous loans. Israel also receives special benefits that may not be available to other countries, such as the use of U.S. military assistance for research and development in the United States, the use of U.S. military assistance for military purchases in Israel, or receiving all its assistance in the first 30 days of the fiscal year rather than in 3 or 4 installments as other countries do.

In addition to the foreign assistance, the United States has provided Israel with $625 million to develop and deploy the Arrow anti-missile missile (an ongoing project), $1.3 billion to develop the Lavi aircraft (cancelled), $200 million to develop the Merkava tank (operative), $130 million to develop the high energy laser anti-missile system (ongoing), and other military projects. In FY2000 the United States provided Israel an additional $1.2 billion to fund the Wye agreement, and in FY2002 the United States provided an additional $200 million in anti-terror assistance." According to the unbias CRS. In real life, I imagine these things cost a few pennies. But what do I know, I am arguing with someone who is insisting these so called loans with no pay back provision are not aid. And you call me an Enron accountant?

Pug - Why don't you post how much aid the US provides to EGYPT or TURKEY? Or, how the US wrote-off over $700 million of Egyptian debt to the US.

If what you're getting at is that the US shouldn't support "Them Jews who are stirrin' up so much trouble over there.", then you should know that religion or the "Worldwide Jewish Conspiracy" isn't a factor here. That's IF this is what you're getting at.

Israel was the first, and continues to be the ONLY democracy in the Middle East. It is a bulwark against anti-American Arab dictatorships. Egypt, a one-time bitter enemy of Israel and a Soviet stooge, is a "pro-American dictatorship" and once Sadat signed the Camp David accord, his country immediately started benefitting from the United States' largese. Turkey, a solid NATO ally, also receives significant US aid, as a buffer against hostile regimes. We take care of our allies is what I get from US aid to Israel, et al. What, exactly is YOUR point here?

[astra]

as the OP who started all of this i feel i need to add a few notes. Due to my work and travel I don't get a chance to check the boards very often and I just got back on this morning and saw this.

First I should clarify that i didn't mean to "punish" anyone or any people as a whole - i should have used "penalize" and my remark was directed at the Gov't and Tennis Federation of that country.

My point was this reaction from Indonesia is exactly the wrong thing to do and only feeds the hate. just look at the reaction on these boards! What would have happened if they AGREED to play in Israel - WOW wouldn't that be a great message! that would be a great step - FOR BOTH SIDES! maybe that makes me a bit naive but oh well.

On a personal side i have seen quite a few remarks made about me - that I am a Muslim hater, a Jew, anti this anti that, blah blah blah....etc
truth is i am half Russian and half French - on the Russian side some of my family came from southern Russia and many are Muslim (by birth and or marriage) as white Russians who settled there generations ago. I happen to be Russian Orthodox (Christian) myself and on the French side my family is your typical French Catholics (not saying alot as French Catholics as a whole can almost be called secular). My point is I am not anti anything - I was wanting to point out that it's wrong for countries to use sports to divide us - Would it not have been better for Indonesia to make a point for cooperation and understanding?

As for the line with the details about Indonesia I took that DIRECT from the press release (It was a BBC and reuters feed) - And I entered it just as a fact - nothing else - no hidden meaning - no remarks - just the fact the Indonesia is a large country, has lots of people, Muslim and do not have relations with Isreal -
Genie was set free:)

[Mahboob Khan]

MLoutch: Thanks for your clarification.

By the way I am now in Bangkok, Thailand. My players (all girls that include my daughter, Sarah mahboob Khan) are participating in the Junior Fed Cup. It will finish on May 13th and we will go back to Pakistan on 14th of May.

My reaction to your original post was quite sharp and I apologize for that. Pakistan has been staunch ally of the United States since 1947 but in 1971 U.S. did not come to our help and our country got divided in two.

In the war against "terrorism", Pakistan has sided with the United States. Our own military-men and civilians in South Waziristan and elsewhere got killed in large numbers but it seems that the U.S. is not happy. Every time they come to Pakistan or we go to the U.S. they say, "do more".

[Mahboob Khan]

Captain Karl: I respect you a lot. You are an original person. I admire that you are a devout Christian (I am also Christian for I believe in true/unchanged teachings of Essa bin Meryyam). But sir, did it ever occur to you that in Al-Qura'an there are more stories about Jesus Christ and Moses than any body else? And how come, you failed to see the beautiful logics in chapter 2, 3, 5, and 19 (i.e. the Cow, the family of Imran, The Dining Table, and Al-Meryyam)! I am disappointed from myself. You can abuse Muhammad, but can we abuse Jesus Christ, can we? Did it ever occur to you that through many many revisions to Bible, it has been "evolved" into something which is "acceptable" to large number of Christians? Sir, the latest evidence shows that there were many Gospels written after the "death" of Jesus Christ and many of these Gospels got thrown out. What guarantee or assurance you have that you got the original/unchanged/unmodified/unrevised bible?

See you in the next world!!!

[PugArePeopleToo]

Pug - Why don't you post how much aid the US provides to EGYPT or TURKEY? Or, how the US wrote-off over $700 million of Egyptian debt to the US.

If what you're getting at is that the US shouldn't support "Them Jews who are stirrin' up so much trouble over there.", then you should know that religion or the "Worldwide Jewish Conspiracy" isn't a factor here. That's IF this is what you're getting at.

Israel was the first, and continues to be the ONLY democracy in the Middle East. It is a bulwark against anti-American Arab dictatorships. Egypt, a one-time bitter enemy of Israel and a Soviet stooge, is a "pro-American dictatorship" and once Sadat signed the Camp David accord, his country immediately started benefitting from the United States' largese. Turkey, a solid NATO ally, also receives significant US aid, as a buffer against hostile regimes. We take care of our allies is what I get from US aid to Israel, et al. What, exactly is YOUR point here?

Phil, I don't believe for a minute there is a vast Jewish Conspiracy, but I cannot deny there are powerful Jewish PACs, and I think it is completely legitimate asking questions about aid to Israel, and whether our aid to Israel is or is not productive. One of the questions is exactly how much? Up to this point all I did is pointing out the amount of money we have spent on Israel, call them grants, special previlige loans, investment or whatever, add up to more than $3 billion a year. I also think it is completely legitimate asking question about aid to Egypt, and what is the Egyptian government doing about reducing anti-American sentiment and terrorist activities in Egypt. I am quite sure Ben42 will have no problem if I were to use the same definition and say our aid to Egypt is more than those shown on the book.

The sad fact is up until farily recently, if there was anti-American sentiment in the Middle East, it was mile wide and inch deep. Today it is a deep rooted hatred. If we are supporting Israel because of anti-American Arab dictatorships, and if Sadat can be bought, then why can we just buy other dictators off? Heck we can pay off at least 3 Arab dictators for the same amount we spend on Israel. I mean that is a better return on our money right? But the oppositions are no longer just those dictators. I believe it is more than that now, I believe we have got to ask ourselves what are we doing to win the heart of the average Muslim citizens? If our nation's best interest is to have steady supply of reasonably cheap oil from Middle East, and sadly it is, we need to stop this hatred from going to the next generation. If that calls for re-examining our relationship with Israel, I am all for it. Our foreign aid, an extension of our foreign policy, should serve either humanitarian purpose with no string attached, or should serve our nation's best interest with a lot of strings attached. In the case of Israel our aid is doing neither the former nor the latter.

I agree with you that we should take care of our allies regardless if the ally is a democracy or a pro-American dictatorship, but I believe our allies’ action should, at the bare minimum, not harm US's interest. As I asked Ben42 exactly what return have we gotten from the Lavi program, which he termed an investment not an aid. It is an aid pure and simple; we are already on to the next generation of technology in F22, F35 and beyond, why would we want to invest in the old technology? But it does not show up as aid according to Ben42. What is comical about the whole thing is that we gave Israel F16 technology, paid for the modification and improvement to the tune of 1.3 billion, the Israelis then sold the technology to the Chinese, a potential adversary. While China is not an openly hostile nation, it is entirely possible that Chinese will sell the same technology to countries such as Iran and North Korea that are openly hostile to the US. Even if Chinese does not proliferate the technology, Israel's action in this case clearly is not in the US's best interest. I can come up with other examples, but I think I have made my point.

[Phil]

Phil, I don't believe for a minute there is a vast Jewish Conspiracy, but I cannot deny there are powerful Jewish PACs, and I think it is completely legitimate asking questions about aid to Israel, and whether our aid to Israel is or is not productive. One of the questions is exactly how much? Up to this point all I did is pointing out the amount of money we have spent on Israel, call them grants, special previlige loans, investment or whatever, add up to more than $3 billion a year. I also think it is completely legitimate asking question about aid to Egypt, and what is the Egyptian government doing about reducing anti-American sentiment and terrorist activities in Egypt. I am quite sure Ben42 will have no problem if I were to use the same definition and say our aid to Egypt is more than those shown on the book.

The sad fact is up until farily recently, if there was anti-American sentiment in the Middle East, it was mile wide and inch deep. Today it is a deep rooted hatred. If we are supporting Israel because of anti-American Arab dictatorships, and if Sadat can be bought, then why can we just buy other dictators off? Heck we can pay off at least 3 Arab dictators for the same amount we spend on Israel. I mean that is a better return on our money right? But the oppositions are no longer just those dictators. I believe it is more than that now, I believe we have got to ask ourselves what are we doing to win the heart of the average Muslim citizens? If our nation's best interest is to have steady supply of reasonably cheap oil from Middle East, and sadly it is, we need to stop this hatred from going to the next generation. If that calls for re-examining our relationship with Israel, I am all for it. Our foreign aid, an extension of our foreign policy, should serve either humanitarian purpose with no string attached, or should serve our nation's best interest with a lot of strings attached. In the case of Israel our aid is doing neither the former nor the latter.

I agree with you that we should take care of our allies regardless if the ally is a democracy or a pro-American dictatorship, but I believe our allies’ action should, at the bare minimum, not harm US's interest. As I asked Ben42 exactly what return have we gotten from the Lavi program, which he termed an investment not an aid. It is an aid pure and simple; we are already on to the next generation of technology in F22, F35 and beyond, why would we want to invest in the old technology? But it does not show up as aid according to Ben42. What is comical about the whole thing is that we gave Israel F16 technology, paid for the modification and improvement to the tune of 1.3 billion, the Israelis then sold the technology to the Chinese, a potential adversary. While China is not an openly hostile nation, it is entirely possible that Chinese will sell the same technology to countries such as Iran and North Korea that are openly hostile to the US. Even if Chinese does not proliferate the technology, Israel's action in this case clearly is not in the US's best interest. I can come up with other examples, but I think I have made my point.

You made your point, Pug, but I think it is flawed and shortsighted. I agree that there is nothing wrong with raising the question of our aid to Israel, but in my experience, there's OFTEN (not always) an underlying reason motivating such discussions, and normally that underlying reason is anti-Semitism. Just as some on this board post threads on the Williams Sisters hoping (and usually succeeding) to get a rise out of the racists here among us. I'm always wary of this, but on the other hand, realize that aid to Israel or any other country for that matter should be justified and questioned as part of the process. Nothing should be rubber stamped.

Looking at Israeli aid or ANY diplomatic initiative in purely cost-benefit terms is extremely narrow. The US, when it decides to support an ally, looks at the issue from many angles IN ADDITION to cost benefit.

Is Israel "worth" whatever amount you say it costs for the US? Yes...you say it's money poorly spent. I say it's a pittance of our total GNP to support, not PROP UP, but support a reliable ally. First of all, it's surrounded by hostile nations that, at one time or another tried to destroy it. Why would the US allow nations hostile to its own interests destroy the only democracy in the region? Secondly, Israel is the tip of the spear...it is strategically positioned at the center of the Arab world and we NEED that. Thirdly, Israel is not much different from S. Korea in that we have helped it to become a fairly successful economy. Israel has large indigenous IT and defense industries, among others.

The Lavi was a waste, but a drop in the bucket compared to what the DoD spends on failed or mediocre weapons programs. Isreal's defense industry has actually IMPROVED on the avionics of both the F-16 and -15, in addition to building a derivative Mirage (the Kifir) that performed better than the French original. Not many countries, even with aid from another country, have been able to build a viable defense industry. Syria, for example, remains a pathetic client state. But, I think it was wrong for Israel to sell technology to China, but...the US has BLOCKED most of those sales, including sale of an AWACS using a Soviet aircraft as a frame (can't remember which, maybe the IL-76?). But defense indrustries need to make foreign sales to remain viable-China is the wrong call, though.

What do you think Israel did before the US gave it aid? It STILL defeated the Arabs in 1948 and all the wars up to 1967, without significant US aid. Isreal was originally dependent on French and some British aid, and DeGaulle withdrew all support before the 6-Day war. Israel managed, partly by stealing the French technology that it had already PAID for but that French withheld. Israel can probably take care of itself, free of US aid by this point, but the US has no reason to risk that experiment.

You imply that Israel is the root of all Muslim hatred against the US. I counter that Israel is a convenient EXCUSE for Muslims to hate the West. Corrupt and brutal Muslim dictators use Israel and anti-Semitic propaganda as a diversion to ensure that their largely poor and uneducated populations do not turn their anger inwards, at the REAL source of their misery-those same dictators. As I said in another post, if Israel didn't exist, Muslim nations would have to invent it. Israel has nothing to do with the misery and disaffection among the Saudi or Pakistani population. But the royal family and the imans don't want that to get out, so they've managed to rally the "street" in their countries against the Jews. Muslim "humiliation" has come mainly at the hands of...other Muslims. So your implied suggestion that we drop or scale back aid to a reliable ally to APPEASE the Muslim world is absurd, and goes against everything this country stands for, which includes more than merely "national interests". Believe me, withdrawing aid from Israel will not make Muslim "hatred" go away. It's only going to get worse...

The US wants it both ways-supporting Isreal AND supporting dictatorships like Saudi Arabia, but that's the twisted nature of realpolitik...we don't abandon allies, and we make friends with those less-than-savory types who have what we need (oil).

[schaefferm46]

how is it garbage...explain?

[Phil]

how is it garbage...explain?

Not "it", YOU, punk.

[scez]

If the US doesnt aid Isreal, who will? Will it be France where Jewish people are told not to wear their keepah in public for saftey reasons?

[schaefferm46]

hey phil im jewish by the way and i have plenty of islamic friends i think some people are taking too radical of a stand on this its about tennis not wrong and right

[Phil]

hey phil im jewish by the way and i have plenty of islamic friends i think some people are taking too radical of a stand on this its about tennis not wrong and right

This is a DISCUSSION. If you don't like it, either stay out of it or experess yourself like a human being should.

Why didn't you say what you just said in the FIRST PLACE, anyway? You're a young punk, so I know you don't mean anything by it. If you need further explanation, whyn't you ask your parents? Better yet, show them your "jew..." post. Oh, and if you make it back here after doing THAT, let me know what happens:rolleyes:

[schaefferm46]

my post was ment to lighten up the conversation becuase i think you guys are taking it way out of proportion. just cuz im a "young punk" doesnt mean i dont have opinions and dont know about politics.

drop it old man

[Phil]

my post was ment to lighten up the conversation becuase i think you guys are taking it way out of proportion. just cuz im a "young punk" doesnt mean i dont have opinions and dont know about politics.

drop it old man

That wasn't an "opinion" punk. Like I said, show it to your folks, if you dare, and let us know what they say (or do) to you. You have much to learn, punk.

Signed,

"Old Man"

[tennis_nerd22]

Can't argue with that. However, you've got several million of your fellow Muslims that would strongly disagree with you. And this, of course, puts a negative generalization on the whole Muslim religion.

which is the problem

[tennis_nerd22]

as the OP who started all of this i feel i need to add a few notes. Due to my work and travel I don't get a chance to check the boards very often and I just got back on this morning and saw this.

First I should clarify that i didn't mean to "punish" anyone or any people as a whole - i should have used "penalize" and my remark was directed at the Gov't and Tennis Federation of that country.

My point was this reaction from Indonesia is exactly the wrong thing to do and only feeds the hate. just look at the reaction on these boards! What would have happened if they AGREED to play in Israel - WOW wouldn't that be a great message! that would be a great step - FOR BOTH SIDES! maybe that makes me a bit naive but oh well.

On a personal side i have seen quite a few remarks made about me - that I am a Muslim hater, a Jew, anti this anti that, blah blah blah....etc
truth is i am half Russian and half French - on the Russian side some of my family came from southern Russia and many are Muslim (by birth and or marriage) as white Russians who settled there generations ago. I happen to be Russian Orthodox (Christian) myself and on the French side my family is your typical French Catholics (not saying alot as French Catholics as a whole can almost be called secular). My point is I am not anti anything - I was wanting to point out that it's wrong for countries to use sports to divide us - Would it not have been better for Indonesia to make a point for cooperation and understanding?

As for the line with the details about Indonesia I took that DIRECT from the press release (It was a BBC and reuters feed) - And I entered it just as a fact - nothing else - no hidden meaning - no remarks - just the fact the Indonesia is a large country, has lots of people, Muslim and do not have relations with Isreal -

haha, dont feel bad, you started a great thread. maybe it'll be the longest in "TW History" :D lol

[tennis_nerd22]

That wasn't an "opinion" punk. Like I said, show it to your folks, if you dare, and let us know what they say (or do) to you. You have much to learn, punk.

Signed,

"Old Man"

k phil, go take some pills and calm down man. take the anger out on the tennis ball, then come back here and type ;) one thing, please dont use the word "punk" anymore. if you have to use a word like that, just use "GANGSTA"

thank you (and have a good day)

[Phil]

k phil, go take some pills and calm down man. take the anger out on the tennis ball, then come back here and type ;) one thing, please dont use the word "punk" anymore. if you have to use a word like that, just use "GANGSTA"

thank you (and have a good day)

"Gangsta"? Please.:rolleyes:

[tennis_nerd22]

"Gangsta"? Please.:rolleyes:

lmao :D

[tonyjh63]

You made your point, Pug, but I think it is flawed and shortsighted. I agree that there is nothing wrong with raising the question of our aid to Israel, but in my experience, there's OFTEN (not always) an underlying reason motivating such discussions, and normally that underlying reason is anti-Semitism. Just as some on this board post threads on the Williams Sisters hoping (and usually succeeding) to get a rise out of the racists here among us. I'm always wary of this, but on the other hand, realize that aid to Israel or any other country for that matter should be justified and questioned as part of the process. Nothing should be rubber stamped.

Looking at Israeli aid or ANY diplomatic initiative in purely cost-benefit terms is extremely narrow. The US, when it decides to support an ally, looks at the issue from many angles IN ADDITION to cost benefit.

Is Israel "worth" whatever amount you say it costs for the US? Yes...you say it's money poorly spent. I say it's a pittance of our total GNP to support, not PROP UP, but support a reliable ally. First of all, it's surrounded by hostile nations that, at one time or another tried to destroy it. Why would the US allow nations hostile to its own interests destroy the only democracy in the region? Secondly, Israel is the tip of the spear...it is strategically positioned at the center of the Arab world and we NEED that. Thirdly, Israel is not much different from S. Korea in that we have helped it to become a fairly successful economy. Israel has large indigenous IT and defense industries, among others.

The Lavi was a waste, but a drop in the bucket compared to what the DoD spends on failed or mediocre weapons programs. Isreal's defense industry has actually IMPROVED on the avionics of both the F-16 and -15, in addition to building a derivative Mirage (the Kifir) that performed better than the French original. Not many countries, even with aid from another country, have been able to build a viable defense industry. Syria, for example, remains a pathetic client state. But, I think it was wrong for Israel to sell technology to China, but...the US has BLOCKED most of those sales, including sale of an AWACS using a Soviet aircraft as a frame (can't remember which, maybe the IL-76?). But defense indrustries need to make foreign sales to remain viable-China is the wrong call, though.

What do you think Israel did before the US gave it aid? It STILL defeated the Arabs in 1948 and all the wars up to 1967, without significant US aid. Isreal was originally dependent on French and some British aid, and DeGaulle withdrew all support before the 6-Day war. Israel managed, partly by stealing the French technology that it had already PAID for but that French withheld. Israel can probably take care of itself, free of US aid by this point, but the US has no reason to risk that experiment.

You imply that Israel is the root of all Muslim hatred against the US. I counter that Israel is a convenient EXCUSE for Muslims to hate the West. Corrupt and brutal Muslim dictators use Israel and anti-Semitic propaganda as a diversion to ensure that their largely poor and uneducated populations do not turn their anger inwards, at the REAL source of their misery-those same dictators. As I said in another post, if Israel didn't exist, Muslim nations would have to invent it. Israel has nothing to do with the misery and disaffection among the Saudi or Pakistani population. But the royal family and the imans don't want that to get out, so they've managed to rally the "street" in their countries against the Jews. Muslim "humiliation" has come mainly at the hands of...other Muslims. So your implied suggestion that we drop or scale back aid to a reliable ally to APPEASE the Muslim world is absurd, and goes against everything this country stands for, which includes more than merely "national interests". Believe me, withdrawing aid from Israel will not make Muslim "hatred" go away. It's only going to get worse...

The US wants it both ways-supporting Isreal AND supporting dictatorships like Saudi Arabia, but that's the twisted nature of realpolitik...we don't abandon allies, and we make friends with those less-than-savory types who have what we need (oil).
Well said, Phil!!

[PugArePeopleToo]

You made your point, Pug, but I think it is flawed and shortsighted. I agree that there is nothing wrong with raising the question of our aid to Israel, but in my experience, there's OFTEN (not always) an underlying reason motivating such discussions, and normally that underlying reason is anti-Semitism. Just as some on this board post threads on the Williams Sisters hoping (and usually succeeding) to get a rise out of the racists here among us. I'm always wary of this, but on the other hand, realize that aid to Israel or any other country for that matter should be justified and questioned as part of the process. Nothing should be rubber stamped.

Looking at Israeli aid or ANY diplomatic initiative in purely cost-benefit terms is extremely narrow. The US, when it decides to support an ally, looks at the issue from many angles IN ADDITION to cost benefit.

Is Israel "worth" whatever amount you say it costs for the US? Yes...you say it's money poorly spent. I say it's a pittance of our total GNP to support, not PROP UP, but support a reliable ally. First of all, it's surrounded by hostile nations that, at one time or another tried to destroy it. Why would the US allow nations hostile to its own interests destroy the only democracy in the region? Secondly, Israel is the tip of the spear...it is strategically positioned at the center of the Arab world and we NEED that. Thirdly, Israel is not much different from S. Korea in that we have helped it to become a fairly successful economy. Israel has large indigenous IT and defense industries, among others.

The Lavi was a waste, but a drop in the bucket compared to what the DoD spends on failed or mediocre weapons programs. Isreal's defense industry has actually IMPROVED on the avionics of both the F-16 and -15, in addition to building a derivative Mirage (the Kifir) that performed better than the French original. Not many countries, even with aid from another country, have been able to build a viable defense industry. Syria, for example, remains a pathetic client state. But, I think it was wrong for Israel to sell technology to China, but...the US has BLOCKED most of those sales, including sale of an AWACS using a Soviet aircraft as a frame (can't remember which, maybe the IL-76?). But defense indrustries need to make foreign sales to remain viable-China is the wrong call, though.

What do you think Israel did before the US gave it aid? It STILL defeated the Arabs in 1948 and all the wars up to 1967, without significant US aid. Isreal was originally dependent on French and some British aid, and DeGaulle withdrew all support before the 6-Day war. Israel managed, partly by stealing the French technology that it had already PAID for but that French withheld. Israel can probably take care of itself, free of US aid by this point, but the US has no reason to risk that experiment.

You imply that Israel is the root of all Muslim hatred against the US. I counter that Israel is a convenient EXCUSE for Muslims to hate the West. Corrupt and brutal Muslim dictators use Israel and anti-Semitic propaganda as a diversion to ensure that their largely poor and uneducated populations do not turn their anger inwards, at the REAL source of their misery-those same dictators. As I said in another post, if Israel didn't exist, Muslim nations would have to invent it. Israel has nothing to do with the misery and disaffection among the Saudi or Pakistani population. But the royal family and the imans don't want that to get out, so they've managed to rally the "street" in their countries against the Jews. Muslim "humiliation" has come mainly at the hands of...other Muslims. So your implied suggestion that we drop or scale back aid to a reliable ally to APPEASE the Muslim world is absurd, and goes against everything this country stands for, which includes more than merely "national interests". Believe me, withdrawing aid from Israel will not make Muslim "hatred" go away. It's only going to get worse...

The US wants it both ways-supporting Isreal AND supporting dictatorships like Saudi Arabia, but that's the twisted nature of realpolitik...we don't abandon allies, and we make friends with those less-than-savory types who have what we need (oil).

Phil, I’ll start with what I agree with, and then go from there. I agree that up until 1967 Israel had done quite well without significant US aid. In fact back in the 50s, US foreign policy can hardly be described as pro-Israel. We were pretty indifferent about the Middle East, and focused most of our attention on containment. So what changed after the Six Day War? I believe that the growing Soviet influence in the Arabic world prompted the US to find an ally in the region. In another word Israel was a cold war ally. Back then, whatever Muslim world’s anti-Western feeling they harbored, it was anti-colonialism, anti-Europe in nature, not anti-US. I suppose it’s worth it to incur the anger of Muslim in order to defeat the USSR, but now that USSR is no more, I think it is time to re-evaluate our foreign policy in the Middle East.

I agree that “Israel is a convenient EXCUSE for Muslims to hate the West. Corrupt and brutal Muslim dictators use Israel and anti-Semitic propaganda as a diversion to ensure that their largely poor and uneducated populations do not turn their anger inwards, at the REAL source of their misery-those same dictators.” However, whether real or imaginary, there is no denying the fact that Israel is a source of anger for Arabs. I would say they could be angry at their corrupted brutal dictators and Israel, and therefore the US at the same time. Bush’s clumsy attempt to bring democracy to the Middle East shows even a “liberated” Muslim nation hates Israel, and even those suffered under Saddam Hussein don’t welcome us. If the two warring sides are not mature enough to live in peace, then I don’t believe we need to side with Israel because it is a democratic spear in a sea of hostile Arabs, because the hostility was not directed at us in the first place. I think the more intransigent Israel acts the more Arabic world will embrace radical Islamism. All of our less-than-savory Arabic friends are just one assassination away from turning a pro-US dictatorial regime into a anti-US dictatorial regime, and Israel is powerless to stop that. The only way Israel can moderate the Arabs is to negotiate a settlement that both sides can save face and live with. However, with a powerful ally who writes large check with no string attached, and supplies Israel with its latest and greatest weapons there is no incentive for Israel to negotiate in good faith, not that there is much good faith on either side. I believe our role should be that of a neutral mediator looking out for our own interest. If we have a more even handed Middle East policy would the hatred go away? I think for some, it is perhaps too late, but if we can re-establish diplomatic relationship with Libya, I’d say anything is possible.

I agree that the amount of foreign aid to Israel is insignificant when measured against our GDP. Beside the obvious question why don’t we throw some of our crumbs to other truly needy countries, we have to make sure at the minimum it does not go against US interest. Whether we like it or not, Arabs blame all of their miseries on Israel, it is not fair, but that is life. I just don’t think it is our interest to get tangled in this mess fueled by religion intolerance, nationalism, and racial hatred. Our problem is with radicals like bin Ladin, and I know bin Ladin has other agenda and can care less about Palestine, but our ally is giving him a very potent propaganda tool to use against us, and he is very successful at using it.

I agree that there is anti-Semitism out there, but if anytime objection about our clearly one sided Middle East foreign policy is raised, the label of anti-Semitism is being raised, then we are in trouble because then Israel is beyond criticism, and whatever is best for Israel is also best for the US. Both of which I think we can agree are not true.

[scez]

Like Phil said, most war is caused by religion. If it wasnt about religion there wouldnt be such a fuss for the land. If it was the otherway around, and Isreal was Muslim land, would you tell Muslims to give away the land to Isreal to stop the fighting? How can both sides reach an agreement? The land has strong religious history for both Muslims and Israelies.

[Phil]

Pug - Good points and well taken. I'll comment on a couple points that I think need addressing...

The only way Israel can moderate the Arabs is to negotiate a settlement that both sides can save face and live with.
Isreael DID negotiate a settlement that both sides could live with. That was the deal brokered by Clinton and Barak in, I think 1998, in which Israel offered to return approx. 98% of the W. Bank to the Palestineans. Arafat inexpicably rejected this deal...some analysts say it was because he was afraid he'd be killed or run out by the more radical elements in his party for agreeing to a deal, ANY DEAL, with Israel. So what's Israel supposed to DO? A sweet deal, thrown back in their faces, and now they're faced with a government that is philosophically committed to the destruction of Israel. What do you want!!!!???? It's obvious that the Palestinians and Arabs will not be satisfied with any deal in which Israel is seen to come out even slightly ahead or even (i.e. continues to exist).
However, with a powerful ally who writes large check with no string attached, and supplies Israel with its latest and greatest weapons there is no incentive for Israel to negotiate in good faith,
See my comments above. Israel has all the incentive in the world to negotiate in good faith; its people are tired and want peace. But faced with increasing hard core Arab instransigence, Israelis will continue to court equally hard-headed and intransigent Israeli leaders who run on the national security issue.

I agree that the amount of foreign aid to Israel is insignificant when measured against our GDP. Beside the obvious question why don’t we throw some of our crumbs to other truly needy countries, we have to make sure at the minimum it does not go against US interest. Whether we like it or not, Arabs blame all of their miseries on Israel, it is not fair, but that is life. I just don’t think it is our interest to get tangled in this mess fueled by religion intolerance, nationalism, and racial hatred. Our problem is with radicals like bin Ladin, and I know bin Ladin has other agenda and can care less about Palestine, but our ally is giving him a very potent propaganda tool to use against us, and he is very successful at using it.
So you suggest that to appease the Muslim world, we disengage from a long-time ally. Cut off military aid, let Israel hang into the wind? What message would that send to our Muslim adversaries (or to our allies)? This would create a domino effect. First the US disengages. Then, the Arabs press for Israel to give back all the land post AND PRE-'67, and for a Palestinian Return...the Arabs will NEVER be satisfied, and with the US out of the picture to back Israel, a vacuum will form opening Israel (AGAIN) to attack. Without the shadow of the US in the region, Israeli would be left out to dry, and that is when and ONLY when it would have to consider its nuclear option-which was developed for JUST such an occasion (i.e. if the US pulls its support). You think Israel hasn't considered, and planned for the scenario that you suggest? This would be an invitation to armaggeddon, especially now that the Arab world has become more radicalized. Iran, who has NEVER fought a war with Israel and was NEVER threatened by it, is screaming the loudest and developing a nuclear capability just to threaten or attack Israel. So, your suggestion is, with due respect, not only riddled with holes, but downright foolish. Look at the bigger picture..."Arab anger" is always going to be there...I'm convinced we can't do anything about it, although we can try...but it's not something that should force us wilt and turn our backs on our foreign policy committments and principles as a nation. You heard of Neville Chamberlain, I'm sure...you're starting to sound like him.

I agree that there is anti-Semitism out there, but if anytime objection about our clearly one sided Middle East foreign policy is raised, the label of anti-Semitism is being raised, then we are in trouble because then Israel is beyond criticism, and whatever is best for Israel is also best for the US. Both of which I think we can agree are not true.
We DO have a one-sided "Middle East foreign policy" and it is centered on OIL. Isreael is an aberration measured against that overall policy. Maybe you mean one-sided Israel-Palestinian policy, because beyond that issue, the US has its nose far up the butts of the Saudis, Kuwaitis, et al. I guess the US has made a calculation, and it makes more sense to support Israel than to NOT support it, and there is no abandoning it now. That doesn't mean that it cannot, as you suggest, continue to be the favored mediator in attempting to resolve the I-P conflict.

[PugArePeopleToo]

Phil, I was recently in Vietnam, and I think we won the Vietnam War. Not by military conquest, because we have no political will power to win by brute force, but by economical imperialism, because we are very good at that. To get rid of an enemy you either wipe him out, or you befriend him. Some are like bin Ladin who cannot be reason with, then we have to kill them. But most we can have engage in dialog. However we cannot engage the Muslim masses without getting into this pro-Israel debate. I do not suggest we cut off Israel, and sell it out, although we have done exactly that to other loyal allies. I suggest we should have use our cloud more often to stop Israel from doing things that were clearly illegal in the eye of international community, never mind in the Muslim world. But as you have mentioned before Israel is quite capable of taking care of itself. I would suggest to you that with or without US aid Israel can still take care of itself. Now that Iran is trying to develop nuclear weapon, are they threatening us or are they threatening Israel? If they are threatening us, then US should do something about it. If they are threatening Israel, then Israel should do something about it. It's not like they have not taking care that sort of business before.
Regarding Arafat's rejection of Barak's deal, this is my thinking; if Israelis are willing to give up 98% of the land from 67, what's the big deal about another two percent? If Israel truly wanted peace then it would have gave up the other two percent. If Arabs truly wanted peace, they would have accepted the 98% offered to them. But the two percent has historical, and religion significant, therefore in the name of religion, let the suicide bombing and retaliation began. They rather kill each other and kill those amongst them who want peace. Yes I meant Israel Palestinian policy not Middle East policy. If the US has made a calculation that it makes more sense supporting Israel than not supporting it. I would like to know what are the variables used in this calculation. So far, you mentioned we don’t abandon ally, and commitments and principles as a nation. That is not true we have abandoned many allies in the past, and will probably do so in the future. Our commitment and principle is dictated by self interest and not much else. You mentioned Israel being the only democracy in the Middle East. So what? We overthrew democratically elected government, assassinated democratically elected leaders when it suited our needs. You mentioned Israel stand up in a world hostile to us. But that world is only hostile to us recently, and mostly because of our support for Israel. Lastly, you mentioned if we don’t aid Israel, Israel might have to use nuclear weapon. That is assuming Arabs can defeat Israel in conventional warfare. A pretty big assumption given that Israelis are simply better at war fighting than the Arabs. Individually or collectively, the calculation just doesn’t add up for me.
I believe we should use the Taiwan Relationship Act as a model to our Israel Palestinian policy. We tell the big bad Chinese don’t you attack Taiwan or we just might come to Taiwan’s defense. We tell the small naughty Taiwanese, do as we ask of you, i.e., don’t piss off the big bad Chinese or in your desperate hour we just might not be there for you. We seek a balance of power so that no one side has the upper hand, and we appeared as an meddling but honest broker seeking to resolve their conflict through peaceful means. Neither side likes us, but neither side hates us enough to drive airplanes into our buildings. A deliberate strategic ambiguity is infinitely more preferable than out right bias toward one side.
In the world since WWII, appeasement and Chamberlain are frequently used by many when other suggest a different, and more moderate approach when confronting a situation, most recently by the Bush supporters. I would say that Arabs/Muslims don't understand us any more than we understand them. They are hostile to us, but we look down on them. To us they are ass backward. To them we are morally bankrupted. They want to have nothing to do with us, only our money to buy their oil, and were it not oil, I am sure the feeling is mutual. But if TW is the world, I don't understand KK anymore than I understand MK. The only thing I am certain of is that in our world today, no leader is as evil as Hitler, and no one ideology poses as much threat to civilized mankind as N a z ism. Appeasement therefore does not apply.

[tennis-n-sc]

Pug, I can't say I agree with much you stated here and I am glad you aren't setting policy for the U.S. I know what our policy is regarding Taiwan but do you really think China gives a flip? If they ever decide to take Taiwan into their fold, we'll do all sorts of saber rattling, maybe bring our ambasador home for a year, and then slowly get back into China's graces.

And in my opinion, appeasement creates evil leaders. So, there are likely many Hitler's in the world today just waiting to take power.

[PugArePeopleToo]

Like Phil said, most war is caused by religion. If it wasnt about religion there wouldnt be such a fuss for the land. If it was the otherway around, and Isreal was Muslim land, would you tell Muslims to give away the land to Isreal to stop the fighting? How can both sides reach an agreement? The land has strong religious history for both Muslims and Israelies.

How can both sides reach an agreement? When they are tired of killing each other then they will find a way. Is not like this is the first time in human history there is injustice, and territorial dispute. Religion and nationalism be damned. And we should push them toward an agreement. If we have any influence with Palestinians, then of course we should tell them to yield as much as we should tell Israel to yield. Unfortunately, we have invested just about all of our political chips on one side; Palestinians having gain very little from us can tell us to buzz off, Israel having gain a lot from us can't. If we cannot be peace maker, then the next best thing is don't take side and watch the killing on TV.

[PugArePeopleToo]

Pug, I can't say I agree with much you stated here and I am glad you aren't setting policy for the U.S. I know what our policy is regarding Taiwan but do you really think China gives a flip? If they ever decide to take Taiwan into their fold, we'll do all sorts of saber rattling, maybe bring our ambasador home for a year, and then slowly get back into China's graces.

And in my opinion, appeasement creates evil leaders. So, there are likely many Hitler's in the world today just waiting to take power.

Don't want to go off the tangent to another subject, but yes Chinese care about the US's unpredictable action.

As far as appeasement. I believe we should court the Muslim masses. I don't see it is an appeasement as I reject the idea that Islam is evil in nature, and I reject the idea that Muslims were born to be radical suicide bomber.

[tennisadict]

Don't want to go off the tangent to another subject, but yes Chinese care about the US's unpredictable action.

As far as appeasement. I believe we should court the Muslim masses. I don't see it is an appeasement as I reject the idea that Islam is evil in nature, and I reject the idea that Muslims were born to be radical suicide bomber.
I agreeeeeee

[tennis-n-sc]

Don't want to go off the tangent to another subject, but yes Chinese care about the US's unpredictable action.

As far as appeasement. I believe we should court the Muslim masses. I don't see it is an appeasement as I reject the idea that Islam is evil in nature, and I reject the idea that Muslims were born to be radical suicide bomber.

I don't know if Islam is evil, I doubt it. It is radical, or at least interpreted that way by the vast majority of Muslims. I caught a T.V. news story a few weeks ago of a college educated Syrian ( I believe ) watching his young son play on the floor. When asked what he wanted his son to be when he grew up, he replied, "A martyr. To die fighting western infidels." You may reject this, but it is what it is. I wish it were different.

With regard to China, the U. S. is much more concerned about the unpredictability of China than the other way around. China will be the next great world power, militarily and economically.

[scez]

How can both sides reach an agreement? When they are tired of killing each other then they will find a way. Is not like this is the first time in human history there is injustice, and territorial dispute. Religion and nationalism be damned. And we should push them toward an agreement. If we have any influence with Palestinians, then of course we should tell them to yield as much as we should tell Israel to yield. Unfortunately, we have invested just about all of our political chips on one side; Palestinians having gain very little from us can tell us to buzz off, Israel having gain a lot from us can't. If we cannot be peace maker, then the next best thing is don't take side and watch the killing on TV.

I meant there is no way to reach an agreement that will satisfy both Muslims and Israelies. Even if the US supported Muslims a ton, I doubt that would help get more peace. They want the land for religion, and REVENGE.

[Phil]

Pug - I think you wrote this VERY fast, as your syntax sounds almost...like a non-native speaker, while your previous posts were letter perfect. Rushing out the door to make an apointment? Stylistic comments aside...

Phil, I was recently in Vietnam, and I think we won the Vietnam War. Not by military conquest, because we have no political will power to win by brute force, but by economical imperialism, because we are very good at that. To get rid of an enemy you either wipe him out, or you befriend him. Some are like bin Ladin who cannot be reason with, then we have to kill them. But most we can have engage in dialog. However we cannot engage the Muslim masses without getting into this pro-Israel debate.
I agree with this, but...Vietnam and most of Asia is commerce-oriented, whether or not they're communists...they have been traders for years. The Muslim masses, other than in the Levant, do not have such a mentality, and Islam itself limits what can be done in those countries, commercially, so I DOUBT we will "conquer" the Muslim masses through economic influence.

I do not suggest we cut off Israel, and sell it out, although we have done exactly that to other loyal allies. I suggest we should have use our cloud more often to stop Israel from doing things that were clearly illegal in the eye of international community, never mind in the Muslim world. But as you have mentioned before Israel is quite capable of taking care of itself. I would suggest to you that with or without US aid Israel can still take care of itself.
You ARE suggesting that we sell-out Israel to appease the Muslim "masses"-that is exactly what you're doing. Israel is capable of taking care of itself, but without a US pull-out would be an invitation to attack Israel, whether or not it can defend itself.
Now that Iran is trying to develop nuclear weapon, are they threatening us or are they threatening Israel? If they are threatening us, then US should do something about it. If they are threatening Israel, then Israel should do something about it. It's not like they have not taking care that sort of business before.
Who knows what Iran is really up to? But you cannot simply separate a threat to the US and to Israel...Iran threatens THE ENTIRE REGION, and hence, US interests. Yes, we should do something about it.
Regarding Arafat's rejection of Barak's deal, this is my thinking; if Israelis are willing to give up 98% of the land from 67, what's the big deal about another two percent? If Israel truly wanted peace then it would have gave up the other two percent.
Simply amazing that you would say this, but after all, you are calling for total capitulation to Muslim demands. Israel was under attack from all sides, they took land as a buffer, WHY would they give up 100% of that? I think 98% is a pretty good deal...a lot better than 100% OF NOTHING, which is the "deal" Arafat brokered!
If Arabs truly wanted peace, they would have accepted the 98% offered to them.
But they don't and they didn't, now did they?
If the US has made a calculation that it makes more sense supporting Israel than not supporting it. I would like to know what are the variables used in this calculation. So far, you mentioned we don’t abandon ally, and commitments and principles as a nation. That is not true we have abandoned many allies in the past, and will probably do so in the future. Our commitment and principle is dictated by self interest and not much else. You mentioned Israel being the only democracy in the Middle East. So what? We overthrew democratically elected government, assassinated democratically elected leaders when it suited our needs. You mentioned Israel stand up in a world hostile to us. But that world is only hostile to us recently, and mostly because of our support for Israel.
The world has been hostile to us for the last 50 years or so. We HAVE abandoned allies, but Israel doesn't seem to fall under that list, now does it? One ally that we have supported for 38 years.
Lastly, you mentioned if we don’t aid Israel, Israel might have to use nuclear weapon. That is assuming Arabs can defeat Israel in conventional warfare. A pretty big assumption given that Israelis are simply better at war fighting than the Arabs. Individually or collectively, the calculation just doesn’t add up for me.
But if Iran gets the bomb, your calculations go right out the window.
I believe we should use the Taiwan Relationship Act as a model to our Israel Palestinian policy. We tell the big bad Chinese don’t you attack Taiwan or we just might come to Taiwan’s defense. We tell the small naughty Taiwanese, do as we ask of you, i.e., don’t piss off the big bad Chinese or in your desperate hour we just might not be there for you.
I don't see the similarities in the two regions' situations. China doesn't depend on suicide bombers nor does it have a suicide bomber mentality. It has as much to lose by attacking Taiwan as the US does in coming to Taiwan's defense-and triggering WW III. Seems to me, this act has encouraged China to bully Taiwan and any other country that even looks Taiwan's way. The fact is, even with a super-weapon in their hands, Oil, the Arabs have not used it to bully the rest of the world since the 1970's, so why would the US need to enter a Taiwan Relations-type situation with Israel? For you the answer is simple...to appease the Muslim world.
In the world since WWII, appeasement and Chamberlain are frequently used by many when other suggest a different, and more moderate approach when confronting a situation, most recently by the Bush supporters.
In this thread I am using appeasement & Chamberlain to describe APPEASEMENT, because that is what I'm reading from you. I am certainly no "Bush supporter.
I would say that Arabs/Muslims don't understand us any more than we understand them. They are hostile to us, but we look down on them. To us they are ass backward. To them we are morally bankrupted. They want to have nothing to do with us, only our money to buy their oil, and were it not oil, I am sure the feeling is mutual. The only thing I am certain of is that in our world today, no leader is as evil as Hitler, and no one ideology poses as much threat to civilized mankind as N a z ism. Appeasement therefore does not apply.
Appeasement certainly applies...it's alive and well and flourishing in many corners of the world, including the USA. Hitler is irrelevant in the context of this discussion...I don't know why you even mentioned the subject.

Oh, and just a suggestion...seriously, with no rancor here...try using the space bar once in a while. 7,000-word paragraphs are hard on the eyes.

[Mahboob Khan]

Who knows what Iran is really up to? But you cannot simply separate a threat to the US and to Israel...Iran threatens THE ENTIRE REGION, and hence, US interests. Yes, we should do something about it.

"Yes, we should do something about it".

You did something about Vietnam and got humiliated.

You did something about Afghanistan and Iraq and now in a quagmire. You want to leave Iraq but can't.

Now you want to "do something" about Iran.

Sir, there are alternative sources of energy available. Move away from oil and Middle East so that you are safe and happy within your own borders.

The way you think and act fuel more hatred (and associated violence).

[Phil]

Who knows what Iran is really up to? But you cannot simply separate a threat to the US and to Israel...Iran threatens THE ENTIRE REGION, and hence, US interests. Yes, we should do something about it.

"Yes, we should do something about it".

You did something about Vietnam and got humiliated.

You did something about Afghanistan and Iraq and now in a quagmire. You want to leave Iraq but can't.

Now you want to "do something" about Iran.

Sir, there are alternative sources of energy available. Move away from oil and Middle East so that you are safe and happy within your own borders.

The way you think and act fuel more hatred (and associated violence).

If we don't do something, who will? Pakistan? Yeah, your country has certainly done its part in this situation, by selling or giving nucluear weapons technology to Iran, N. Korea and Libya...what a joke. Best that you not make these ignorant comments before examining your own country's role in this situation.

BTW, don't call me "Sir", Mahboob...I don't need your condescending attitude.

[GOOOOOGA]

I'm a devout Muslim myself, but I"ll criticize Islam...

it's too idealistic. human nature will not permit all of the guidelines and rules of islam to be followed to the letter of the law.

about 90% of all muslims live in asia and africa- continents filled with developing, third world countries. therefore, the number of educated ppl is lower than in europe or america. because poverty is also rampant there, it is easy for the masses to jump on a radical's bandwagon. ex. germans in the 1930s. they werent bad people, they just were desperate and angry.

the radical muslims aren't really doing what they should be. its all political. yet they have the loud, resounding voice, and in countries where 90% of ppl are muslims, there is no other point of view. moderate muslims are, without even knowing, brainwashed to believe to some extent the words of the extremists.

islam says that homosexuality is a sin, that drinking is a sin, that lust and premarital sex is a sin, that pork is a sin, but it ALSO says to not judge because that is Allah's job. it is God's job to judge. because everyone sins, and it isn't reasonable for a sinner to condemn a sinner.

thats what i think in a nutshell.

[Mahboob Khan]

I'm a devout Muslim myself, but I"ll criticize Islam...

it's too idealistic. human nature will not permit all of the guidelines and rules of islam to be followed to the letter of the law.

You are a Muslim but will criticize Islam. What do you mean you will criticize the Sharia (rules), the Book Al-Qura'an? Which part of Islam you like to criticise, or you like to criticise the actions of our rulers?

[GOOOOOGA]

I'm a devout Muslim myself, but I"ll criticize Islam...

it's too idealistic. human nature will not permit all of the guidelines and rules of islam to be followed to the letter of the law.

You are a Muslim but will criticize Islam. What do you mean you will criticize the Sharia (rules), the Book Al-Qura'an? Which part of Islam you like to criticise, or you like to criticise the actions of our rulers?

I'm criticizing the implementation of the religion. the religion itself is pretty straightforward, but our human nature, like i said, brings out the interpretation of illiterates and the hateful, which sheds a bad light on Islam

[Mahboob Khan]

So what you are saying is that the problem is with the followers not with Islam. The followers have failed to understand true Islam and failed to follow it in its letter and spirit. The problem is with the followers that they failed to implement it .. the way it should have been.

And I do not see any hope that the current followers including myself and yourself will implement true Islam. The hope is from those logical open minded people from the West and from United States, who in the light of new evidence about many forms of Gospels .. Gospels other than that of John, Mathew, Luke, and John .. will re-try to un-earth the true meaning of Islam. The Gospel of Judas that's currently being studied, and many Gospels that were thrown out of the window, clearly testify that there were more than one Gospel prior to and after Muhammad (peace be upon him). I wish our friends in the West and in the United States .. I mean the People of the Book .. will read and understand the Gospel of Allah, Al-Qura'an! Everything is there to be taken!

Phil: We may agree to disagree, but you know I have been following you for quite a long time, and I appreciate your passion for tennis and religion-related matters. Good day. My regards to your family.

A crazy man from Pakistan

Mahboob Khan

[Kaptain Karl]

... The hope is from those logical open minded people from the West and from United States, who in the light of new evidence about many forms of Gospels <snip> The Gospel of Judas that's currently being studied, and many Gospels ....The only people assigning *any* credibility to these "other gospels" are ... non-Christians ... those antagonistic to Christianity ... and those who simply like being provocative.

(Mahboob, anyone can write something and call it a "gospel". That ... presumption doesn't make them authorities -- or make their work authoritative. The Word of God -- the Bible -- edifys itself. And if that isn't enough, many historians who have frequently tried to disprove the claims of the Bible have ended up being proponents of its accuracy and validity.)

[These "evidences"] clearly testify that there were more than one Gospel prior to and after Muhammad (peace be upon him). I wish our friends in the West and in the United States .. I mean the People of the Book .. will read and understand the Gospel of Allah, Al-Qura'an!Mahboob, why do so many Muslims insist on changing the historical origins of Islam?

To remind you of the history of Islam:
A.) Before Islam
1. Mecca was polytheistic; Allah was just one of many gods.
2. Mohammed was battling depression, self-doubt, trauma; he was close to suicidal. (AD 610)
3. In one of his "down" times, M. retreated to a cave in Hira, where he claims the Angel Gabriel appeared to him and announced “M. is Allah’s Prophet”
4. Mohammed thought he was crazy. M.'s wife, Khadija, soothed him ... and was the visionary (the momentum) behind M. starting this new religion. [Ironic isn't it. A religion which puts women on a level with "property" was really ... invented by ... a woman (Khadija).]
5. About 3 years post-Hira, M. starts preaching (AD 613)

B.) Islam is established
1. Meccans were incensed at Mohammed for heresy against their gods. (The Meccans were going to -- at the very least -- run him out of town.)
2. M. fled to Ethiopia with his (roughly 15) followers (AD 617)
3. “Islam” grew to about 70. M. returned to Mecca & compromised over the "one god" thing.
4. Mohammed called 3 idols daughters of Allah [Sura 53:19,20] (Remember a recent book?)
5. Meccans nearly murdered Mohammed for retracting compromise. Mohammed claimed Satan deceived him into agreement. (After, the abrogated verses were known as the “Satanic Verses.”) The Meccans ran him out of town ... again.
6. After “Flight II” M. based in Medina, on northern trade route from Mecca.

C.) Islam’s Growth
1. From Medina, Mohammed & Islam grew in wealth and power by becoming a marauder, ransacking caravans, raping & murdering. (He would bind the men's hands and have them kneel in a shoulder to shoulder line. One-by-one Mohammed would offer to let the men live if they "converted" to Islam. If they refused, they were murdered on the spot.)
2. Islam grew in numbers through force; terrorizing the vanquished.

D.) Mohammeds successors led the bloody advances of Islam into ... Middle East ... Northern Africa ... Southern Europe ... Central Europe

E.) Since 1985, Muslims have persisted in jihad to “spread Islam” ... Khartoum, Sudan ... El-Kosheh, Egypt ... Rwanda ... Bosnia ... Kosovo ... Jakarta, Indonesia (a very “organized” jihad)

F.) Conclusion: Since Islam was founded in AD 610, it neither predated Judaism or Christianity.

A crazy man from Pakistan

Mahboob KhanNah! You're not "crazy" (yet).

- KK

[Mahboob Khan]

Kaptain Karl: Most of the stuff you wrote about Muhammad and his Islam is rubbish. It is written by enemies of Islam. I reject it right away.

Khadija did not invent Islam. In fact, no body did. It is from Allah from day one. Islam basically means "One God to be worshiped and Muhammad is His last and final Messenger". If you would study the chapters I indicated, you will know that Islam existed prior to Muhammad but it was not practiced the way it should have been. Religion sanctioned/liked by Allah must be one. Christians say you will go to Hell if you are not Christians; Jews say you will go to Hell if you are not Jew; Muslims say you will go to Hell if you are not a Muslim. Sir, between Judaism and Christianity one religion is false; and between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, two religions are false.

In the light of new evidence as I mentioned, the concept of Jesus Christ's Crucifixion and then resurrection is debateable. And after Jesus there were many forms and shapes of Christianity but only two survived (Catholic, Protestants). And by the way the New Testament is not word of God it's the word of Judas, Mark, Mathew, Luke, and John. And Al-Qura'an is very clear about it, "O Jesus, they are about to plan (to kill you), and I also plan (to save you); and I am the best of planner .. I am about to ascend you to myself ..". In chapter 5, Allah says, "Jesus was not crucified, he was not killed, but it appeared to them so". And the Gospel of Judas indicate that the socalled crufixion of Jesus was just an illusion. It happed but to another person NOT to Jesus Christ.

KK. I will never convince you, and you will never convince me. These matters shall be decided by God when we will appear before Him. So, please wait and I wait with you.

[Mahboob Khan]

Roddick the Beast: For every logical person such as yourself, logics will make sense.

Allah says: "I created Adam out of clay (without father and mother)". He created Eve from the ribs of Adam (without mother), and he created Jesus without a father, then why we dubb Jesus as son of God or God Himself? If he was a son of God or God himself then why he allowed his own creatures to humiliate (crucify/kill him)? Jesus (Arabic Essa bin Meryyam) was a Messenger of Allah and a Messenger of Allah cannot be killed by men. A prophet can be killed, but a Messenger cannot be killed; this is the rule of God.

For every logical person Al-Qura'an makes sense.

[tennis-n-sc]

Roddick the Beast: For every logical person such as yourself, logics will make sense.

Allah says: "I created Adam out of clay (without father and mother)". He created Eve from the ribs of Adam (without mother), and he created Jesus without a father, then why we dubb Jesus as son of God or God Himself? If he was a son of God or God himself then why he allowed his own creatures to humiliate (crucify/kill him)? Jesus (Arabic Essa bin Meryyam) was a Messenger of Allah and a Messenger of Allah cannot be killed by men. A prophet can be killed, but a Messenger cannot be killed; this is the rule of God.

For every logical person Al-Qura'an makes sense.

Mahoob, I could, and would want to, give you much more lattitude here if it weren't for the tremendous hatred in the Muslim world for other religions, to the point of brutal murder of innocnet civilians in the name of Allah. Sorry, dude, but radical Islam isn't cutting it in the rest of the world. As a matter of fact, the actions, or inactions, of the majority of Muslims is beginning to isolate Islam from the rest of the civilized world and set the religion back centuries. The rest of the world is a little tired of all the b.s.

[Roddick The Beast]

Roddick the Beast: For every logical person such as yourself, logics will make sense.

Allah says: "I created Adam out of clay (without father and mother)". He created Eve from the ribs of Adam (without mother), and he created Jesus without a father, then why we dubb Jesus as son of God or God Himself? If he was a son of God or God himself then why he allowed his own creatures to humiliate (crucify/kill him)? Jesus (Arabic Essa bin Meryyam) was a Messenger of Allah and a Messenger of Allah cannot be killed by men. A prophet can be killed, but a Messenger cannot be killed; this is the rule of God.

For every logical person Al-Qura'an makes sense.I do not know if you are giving me some wise-guy sarcarsm or if you are being truly genuine about what you say to me.

That goes to show that trust isn't something that is common in this day and age anymore. That goes to show that with the way man has been treating one another, "lack of" trust is not so uncommon. I'm "conditioned" that way as well (not letting out trust to go around freely, that is).

[GOOOOOGA]

Mahoob, I could, and would want to, give you much more lattitude here if it weren't for the tremendous hatred in the Muslim world for other religions, to the point of brutal murder of innocnet civilians in the name of Allah. Sorry, dude, but radical Islam isn't cutting it in the rest of the world. As a matter of fact, the actions, or inactions, of the majority of Muslims is beginning to isolate Islam from the rest of the civilized world and set the religion back centuries. The rest of the world is a little tired of all the b.s.

thats so true, as much as we try, we don't try enough, and we kinda attach ideologies to realities that we don't want to see.

[Mahboob Khan]

Mahoob, I could, and would want to, give you much more lattitude here if it weren't for the tremendous hatred in the Muslim world for other religions, to the point of brutal murder of innocnet civilians in the name of Allah. Sorry, dude, but radical Islam isn't cutting it in the rest of the world. As a matter of fact, the actions, or inactions, of the majority of Muslims is beginning to isolate Islam from the rest of the civilized world and set the religion back centuries. The rest of the world is a little tired of all the b.s.

The way you deliberately spelled my name wrong (it's MAHBOOB not Mahoob) that's how you deceive yourself into believing that Islam is behind every evil.

In fact your actions (interference in other countries' internal affairs) resulted into Vietnam War. Your subsequent leadership admitted that that war was based on some misunderstanding and was a big mistake.

Your actions (false reports) that Iraq was in possession of WMDs, etc., resulted into current violence in the region. Even your CIA chief admitted that the President was given "false intelligence reports" because he was bent on attacking Iraq and wanted some pretext. Prior to Gulf war did you ever hear the term 'suicide bomber'?

Your lack of actions:

-- Failing to understand various cultures, civilizations, religions

-- Failing to resolve amicably root causes of conflicts (Palestine-Israel, Kashmir, etc.,)

are causing the current hatred.

Gooooooga knows the real causes of conflicts (a major force behind all evils) but he is too afraid to openly say it. Because he is not free any more in a country that once was a champion of freedom of speech!

Sir, you had a conflict with Mexico, Vietnam, Japan, Germany, Soviet Union, China, Cuba, Afghanistan, Iraq, Middle East, etc. Except Mexico, all other countries are on the other side of the Atlantic.

I think this thread will stay unresolved.

Let's end it here.

[Roddick The Beast]

The way you deliberately spelled my name wrong (it's MAHBOOB not Mahoob) that's how you deceive yourself into believing that Islam is behind every evil.

In fact your actions (interference in other countries' internal affairs) resulted into Vietnam War. Your subsequent leadership admitted that that war was based on some misunderstanding and was a big mistake.

Your actions (false reports) that Iraq was in possession of WMDs, etc., resulted into current violence in the region. Even your CIA chief admitted that the President was given "false intelligence reports" because he was bent on attacking Iraq and wanted some pretext. Prior to Gulf war did you ever hear the term 'suicide bomber'?

Your lack of actions:

-- Failing to understand various cultures, civilizations, religions

-- Failing to resolve amicably root causes of conflicts (Palestine-Israel, Kashmir, etc.,)

are causing the current hatred.

Gooooooga knows the real causes of conflicts (a major force behind all evils) but he is too afraid to openly say it. Because he is not free any more in a country that once was a champion of freedom of speech!

Sir, you had a conflict with Mexico, Vietnam, Japan, Germany, Soviet Union, China, Cuba, Afghanistan, Iraq, Middle East, etc. Except Mexico, all other countries are on the other side of the Atlantic.

I think this thread will stay unresolved.

Let's end it here.YOU spelled Goooooga's name wrong! :mad:

[thejerk]

You are wrong Mahboob. A prophet of G*d can be killed by men if G*d wills it. Jesus was a real martyr and more than just a simple prophet.

Judas was traitor.

Animals targeting little kids in school busses and blowing them up are suicide bombing murderers not martyrs.

[sandiegotennisboy]

cant we all just get along???

[tennis-n-sc]

Mahboob, sorry about the spelling of your name. It was unintentional. Yes, we are a meddeling group here and will go to war with just about anybody. That's politics. I don't recall the U.S. government ever trying to force any religion down the throats of unwilling receipeints. The vast difference in the rest of the world and Islam is that most Muslim countries think their religion is the government. Most non-Muslim countries recognize the separation of church and state and provide citizens the freedom to practice whatever faith, if any, they profess. Muslims can't do that. That's why the rest of the world has about had enough. When Muslims can't find infidels to kill, they kill each other. Where is your sense of Allah? I don't doubt Allah was a prophet and I'm sure he is crying now for what he sees and what the radicals have done with his professions of love and peace. It is not Allah's will, it is Muslims will, all done for political reasons under the guise of religion. And I can tell by your posts that your reasoning has been spooon fed to you by radical mullahs. Dude, the only people I see still riding horses and chopping heads off are Mulsims. Extreme actions by an extreme radical religion. It will not be allowed to continue nor will Iran be allowed to become nuclear armed. Learn to live with the rest of the world, we aren't that bad.

[tennis-n-sc]

cant we all just get along???

Well, your name says it all, boy. And, apparently we can't.:(

[Docalex007]

cant we all just get along???

Debate is healthy. You'll learn this one day. But what isn't healthy is violence. If only there was just a "debate" amongst Christians and Muslims, our world would be a much better place.

[GOOOOOGA]

YOU spelled Goooooga's name wrong! :mad:

haha, my bad guys, i must've been listening to some mitch hedberg when i typed up my user name

[Mahboob Khan]

Roddick the Beast. Your last post spelled my name wrong. It is not Manboob Khan; it is MAHBOOB KHAN. I think you are doing it on purpose to incise me. My name is Mahboob Khan:

Mahboob Khan

Mahboob Khan

Mahboob Khan

I am out of here.

[Mahboob Khan]

You are wrong Mahboob. A prophet of G*d can be killed by men if G*d wills it. Jesus was a real martyr and more than just a simple prophet.

Judas was traitor.

Animals targeting little kids in school busses and blowing them up are suicide bombing murderers not martyrs.

I said: A prophet can be killed (and were killed), but a Messenger of God cannot be killed. Those who were given a Book by God were Messengers and those who were not given a Book were Prophets. Moses, Jesus, Mohammad (peace be upon them) were Prophets as well as Messengers of God because they were given Books (Torat, Injeel, Qura'an). "Jesus was not killed, he was not crucified, but it appeared to them so" this is the view of Al-Qura'an which has been supported by the Yahooda's (Juda) Gospel, as well as The Da Vinci Code. Maseeh bin Meryyam was a slave of Allah, and was a Messenger of Allah. "Essa was nothing but a Messenger, Messengers like him had come and passed away before him" (Al-Qura'an).

Islam does not teach terrorism. Islam teaches peace! The present violence is political and/or territorial in nature. Islam has nothing to do with this.

[Phil]

Islam does not teach terrorism. Islam teaches peace! The present violence is political and/or territorial in nature. Islam has nothing to do with this.

Yeah, sure, whatever you say, Mahboob.


http://www.rop.postmodernclog.com/

I don't agree with many things on this site, but the "Round-up" section is based on news reports and puts, in stark black and white, the number of deaths attributed to "The Religion of Peace.

Islam is at the CENTER of the killing and depravity in the Middle East, and to deny that is to admit total delusion/confusion/ignorance. When a "Martyr" screams "God is Great" just before he blows himself and a school bus full of children to bits, that is "Islam". When an "Insurgent" reads from Al Quran before sawing a captive's head off-and I've seen this posted on the Internet-and then mutters "God is Great", that is the face and voice of modern Islam speaking.

Mohammed would weep a thousand tears if He could see the carnage being commited in his and God's name, by his so-called followers.

[sandiegotennisboy]

some extremists use the fear-factor that is inherent in some religions to control people.

sad thing is, some people are sheepish enough to actually fall for their bs and end up joining the extremists

[equinox]

Yeah, sure, whatever you say, Mahboob.


http://www.rop.postmodernclog.com/

I don't agree with many things on this site, but the "Round-up" section is based on news reports and puts, in stark black and white, the number of deaths attributed to "The Religion of Peace.

Islam is at the CENTER of the killing and depravity in the Middle East, and to deny that is to admit total delusion/confusion/ignorance. When a "Martyr" screams "God is Great" just before he blows himself and a school bus full of children to bits, that is "Islam". When an "Insurgent" reads from Al Quran before sawing a captive's head off-and I've seen this posted on the Internet-and then mutters "God is Great", that is the face and voice of modern Islam speaking.

Mohammed would weep a thousand tears if He could see the carnage being commited in his and God's name, by his so-called followers.

Not any different than the Amerika dropping massive bombs on a village of innocent civilians and calling it collateral damage. Or israel turning a blind eye to settlers killing Palestinian citizens. Or targeted assassination of muslim leadership.

Amerika needs accept the fact that muslims want to live life differently than the west.

Amerika is really weeping what it sowed in the 70's,80's from its interference in arab affairs. One dead arab equals hundreds of angry family members wanting revenge on the amerikan infidels.

Amerika should go back to its isolationist ways and stop empire building.
Of course we all no that will not happen because war is profitable and who cares about a few thousand dead usa soliders and couple hundred thousand dead civilians and freedom fighters. Who cares about the lies and lose of your peoples "freedoms". You'll be happy with your mtv and potatoe chips while your country so called "freedoms" goes down the drain.

USA motto might equals right works for them.

Allahu Akbar works for us.

الله أكبر الله اكبر
الله أكبر فوق كيد المعتدي
الله للمظلوم خير مؤيد
أنا باليقين وبالسلاح سأفتدي
بلدي ونور الحق يسطع في يدي
قولوا معي قولوا معي
الله أكبر الله أكبر الله أكبر
الله أكبر فوق كيد المعتدي

يا هذه الدنيا أطلي واسمعي
جيش الأعادي جاء يبغي مصرعي
بالحق سوف أرده وبمدفعي
وإذا فنيت فسوف أفنيه معي
قولوا معي قولوا معي
الله أكبر الله أكبر الله اكبر
الله فوق كيد المعتدي

[Phil]

Not any different than the Amerika dropping massive bombs on a village of innocent civilians and calling it collateral damage. Or israel turning a blind eye to settlers killing Palestinian citizens. Or targeted assassination of muslim leadership.

Amerika needs accept the fact that muslims want to live life differently than the west.

Amerika is really weeping what it sowed in the 70's,80's from its interference in arab affairs. One dead arab equals hundreds of angry family members wanting revenge on the amerikan infidels.

Amerika should go back to its isolationist ways and stop empire building.
Of course we all no that will not happen because war is profitable and who cares about a few thousand dead usa soliders and couple hundred thousand dead civilians and freedom fighters. Who cares about the lies and lose of your peoples "freedoms". You'll be happy with your mtv and potatoe chips while your country so called freeoms goes down the drain.

USA motto might equals right works for them.

Allahu Akbar works for us.

الله أكبر الله اكبر
الله أكبر فوق كيد المعتدي
الله للمظلوم خير مؤيد
أنا باليقين وبالسلاح سأفتدي
بلدي ونور الحق يسطع في يدي
قولوا معي قولوا معي
الله أكبر الله أكبر الله أكبر
الله أكبر فوق كيد المعتدي

يا هذه الدنيا أطلي واسمعي
جيش الأعادي جاء يبغي مصرعي
بالحق سوف أرده وبمدفعي
وإذا فنيت فسوف أفنيه معي
قولوا معي قولوا معي
الله أكبر الله أكبر الله اكبر
الله فوق كيد المعتدي

This guy's drunk the kool aid. My point proven.

[tennis-n-sc]

This guy's drunk the kool aid. My point proven.

Well, I couldn't have said it better.

[Kaptain Karl]

"Jesus was not killed, he was not crucified, but it appeared to them so" this is the view of Al-Qura'an which has been supported by the Yahooda's (Juda) Gospel, as well as The Da Vinci Code.Wow! "Juda's Gospel" is not taken seriously by any Christian theologians. And Dan Brown readily admits The DaVinci Code is fiction. How is it that you pretend to grant authority to such nonsense?

Islam does not teach terrorism. Islam teaches peace! The present violence is political and/or territorial in nature. Islam has nothing to do with this.Since violence was the method by which Islam grew (from 70 members to many thousands) your claim seems a mite ... hollow.

That being posted, I don't think it's fair to "paint" Mahboob with the brush of the extreme whackos of Islam. (As a Christian people have frequently tried to make me "defend" kooks who claim to be Christian. They are not, and I will not.)

Mahboob - Are many Muslims intimidated by the extremists on your fringe? I ask this because I suspect the "typical Muslim" is afraid to publicly speak out against the homicide bombers and the murdering decapitators ... for fear of retribution. (Repeating the cliche, "Islam is a religion of peace" isn't what I mean. I mean real public condemnation of the terrorists is lacking....) I'd really like to know why Muslims are so ... quiet ... on the issue.

equinox - Sheesh!

- KK

[Kaptain Karl]

Phil - That's a sobering site. I cannot find any "About Us" stuff on there. Who are they (other than a page of links to other sites)?

Thanks.

- KK

[Phil]

Phil - That's a sobering site. I cannot find any "About Us" stuff on there. Who are they (other than a page of links to other sites)?

Thanks.

- KK

I don't know who they are, exactly-I wouldn't recommend the site for "serious" research, but it makes for good reading. My guess is they're probably just some very peed-off people who decided to document, daily, the DAILY atrocities carried out in the name of Islam, rather than just sit around and "take it".

[Dedans Penthouse]

Not any different than the Amerika dropping massive bombs on a village of innocent civilians and calling it collateral damage. Or israel turning a blind eye to settlers killing Palestinian citizens. Or targeted assassination of muslim leadership.

Amerika needs accept the fact that muslims want to live life differently than the west.

Amerika is really weeping what it sowed in the 70's,80's from its interference in arab affairs. One dead arab equals hundreds of angry family members wanting revenge on the amerikan infidels.

Amerika should go back to its isolationist ways and stop empire building.
Of course we all no that will not happen because war is profitable and who cares about a few thousand dead usa soliders and couple hundred thousand dead civilians and freedom fighters. Who cares about the lies and lose of your peoples "freedoms". You'll be happy with your mtv and potatoe chips while your country so called "freedoms" goes down the drain.

USA motto might equals right works for them.

Allahu Akbar works for us.

الله أكبر الله اكبر
الله أكبر فوق كيد المعتدي
الله للمظلوم خير مؤيد
أنا باليقين وبالسلاح سأفتدي
بلدي ونور الحق يسطع في يدي
قولوا معي قولوا معي
الله أكبر الله أكبر الله أكبر
الله أكبر فوق كيد المعتدي

يا هذه الدنيا أطلي واسمعي
جيش الأعادي جاء يبغي مصرعي
بالحق سوف أرده وبمدفعي
وإذا فنيت فسوف أفنيه معي
قولوا معي قولوا معي
الله أكبر الله أكبر الله اكبر
الله فوق كيد المعتدي
equinox: where do you hail from and where do you currently live? I'm curious. thx.

[Dedans Penthouse]

equinox: where do you hail from and where do you currently live? I'm curious. thx.
Equinox????

[Roddick The Beast]

skiggly, lol. careful, he might get all jihad on you. hahaha

skiggly will be my word of the day. thanks for the laugh.Hahhaha!!! You're alright! :D

BTW, I meant to spell "squiggly"! Hahaha. You got my drift though!

I'll have to remember you. Just think: Calitennisboy

:mrgreen:

[Mahboob Khan]

Wow! "Juda's Gospel" is not taken seriously by any Christian theologians. And Dan Brown readily admits The DaVinci Code is fiction. How is it that you pretend to grant authority to such nonsense?

Since violence was the method by which Islam grew (from 70 members to many thousands) your claim seems a mite ... hollow.

That being posted, I don't think it's fair to "paint" Mahboob with the brush of the extreme whackos of Islam. (As a Christian people have frequently tried to make me "defend" kooks who claim to be Christian. They are not, and I will not.)

Mahboob - Are many Muslims intimidated by the extremists on your fringe? I ask this because I suspect the "typical Muslim" is afraid to publicly speak out against the homicide bombers and the murdering decapitators ... for fear of retribution. (Repeating the cliche, "Islam is a religion of peace" isn't what I mean. I mean real public condemnation of the terrorists is lacking....) I'd really like to know why Muslims are so ... quiet ... on the issue.

equinox - Sheesh!

- KK

The Gospel of Juda has been proven to be true and original. It was proven true in Switzerland and U.S. labs. You all know that there were many gospels after the socalled death of Jesus Christ; only those Gospels that suited you (Mark, Mathew, Luke, and John) .. suited your style of "singing, drinking and feel good" were retained in the book and other were discarded. Sir, the New Testament is not the word of God; it is the word of Juda, Mark, Mathew, Luke, and John; whereas our claim is that Al-Qura'an is a word of God and the nature is work of God, and nowhere Al-Qura'an has asked its followers to become suicide bombers. Yes, it has mandated its followers to defend their honour, property, land, religion, etc., against any invading forces. We call that Jihad and you call it Defence; so what's the difference. And by the way I just looked behind my shoulders and I do not see any radical Muslim pointing gun at my head!

I truly believe that Islam is the only true religion by God and I invite you to study it because you guys are my friends and I do not want to see you in the Hell.

And please do not confuse Islam .. the true message of Islam .. with works of its socalled followers. The socalled followers are doing crazy things. Yes, the followers were bad already but your interference in the affairs of other countries and your unjust support to Israel that was created on Arab Lands, made things worse. Please differentiate between the two -- the original Islam, and the current followers --. Read all my posts, I have always defended Islam but NOT its current followers!

OBL and company made things worse for Muslims but who created OBL and Co., and who used them in Afghanistan against Soviet Union?

[Phil]

Equinox????

Dedans - I'd venture to guess he lives with mommy and daddy in a nice bedroom suburban community in AMERICA or some other FIRST　WORLD　country. He's not going to come out and answer your question-disappeared back into the hole he originally crawled out from.

[artworks]

Indonesia will be playing in Israel after all.

[scez]

Isnt equinox from Australia?

[Rep. Timothy Calhoun]

Indonesia just suffered from an earthquake, was it?

[bismark]

Indonesia just suffered from an earthquake, was it?
About 5000 reported dead. Sad.

[tailofdog]

Perhaps if the indonesian girls played nude the rest of the world would be more tolerant to their problems with non islamic people.

[certifiedjatt]

Well, that's the typical Jewish mentality we have been reading about in our Book Al-Qura'an.

oh here we go...
...i think mehboob khan is pissed off because islam (like other religions) prohibits masturbayshun and mehboob takes that seriously.
but we shouldn't feel too bad for him; how many of us are going to sleep with 72 virgins in the afterlife.

[NickC]

Perhaps if the indonesian girls played nude the rest of the world would be more tolerant to their problems with non islamic people.

Old thread alert!

[S H O W S T O P P E R !]

thanks. I studied French in high school. :)

So how would you say cojones in french?

I don't think Indonesia needs to be punished, the ITF/ATP/WTA needs to stay out of these affairs.