New Student-Before& After Video

[BeachTennis]

This was first lesson/ One hour session

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGFp00Q62L4

Give me some feedback ?

[Rep. Timothy Calhoun]

This was first lesson/ One hour session

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGFp00Q62L4

Give me some feedback ?Is that your student?

[Rickson]

This was first lesson/ One hour session

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGFp00Q62L4

Give me some feedback ?
You sicko!

[Rep. Timothy Calhoun]

Beach Tennis, if that is you in the video, the ball feeder, then you are one funny guy! You seem like the partying type.

[Andres]

Why are you spying that little girl from outside the cage, with lots of zoom?
You know... voyeaur...is wrong :mrgreen:

[Andres]

OMG! That little kid and that EXTREME GRIP!!
I never saw an ExtremeR that young :shock:

[Rep. Timothy Calhoun]

OMG! That little kid and that EXTREME GRIP!!
I never saw an ExtremeR that young :shock:That's actually really cool. Her takeback is like a lot of the WTA players though, the straight takeback. I think the straight takeback does make it easy (in the beginning, when first learning) to line up and square up the racquet face (for the western grip) but I like the looping takeback more (the one that you see ATPers use a lot). I like her forward swing though. Looks like a modern forehand to me.

[nViATi]

My wrist hurt just watching her hit with that grip!

[BeachTennis]

This is the first lesson ever with this student.

Here we talk about the grip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEtSJgm5iKs

[siber222000]

holy crap.. what a grip.. lol... im surprised o_O

[snoflewis]

i guess that one article from landsorp is true about that western grip.

[Rep. Timothy Calhoun]

i guess that one article from landsorp is true about that western grip.What is true? Please tell us. As far as I know, he advocated classic strokes (Davenport, Sampras, Sharapova), eastern and semi-western grips.

[BeachTennis]

http://www.lansdorp.com/

A Case of
the Grips
By Robert Lansdorp


One way I see players try to generate heavy topspin is by using a full, or even past full, Western grip on the forehand. This is particularly prevalent among younger players. When they first pick up a racquet as kids, the full Western has a natural feel to it. But I would never have my child start with a full Western grip under any circumstances. The kids look great from ages 8 to 14, but then the trouble starts. And once a kid becomes attached to a grip and has some success with it, it’s tough to switch. They may try to change in practice, but when they get into a match, forget it, they go with what they know. It’s a cancer: You don’t know the damage until it’s too late.

[wyutani]

cute kid...;)

anyway, helpful video, i start training right now, thanks mate'...

[Rep. Timothy Calhoun]

http://www.lansdorp.com/

A Case of
the Grips
By Robert Lansdorp


One way I see players try to generate heavy topspin is by using a full, or even past full, Western grip on the forehand. This is particularly prevalent among younger players. When they first pick up a racquet as kids, the full Western has a natural feel to it. But I would never have my child start with a full Western grip under any circumstances. The kids look great from ages 8 to 14, but then the trouble starts. And once a kid becomes attached to a grip and has some success with it, it’s tough to switch. They may try to change in practice, but when they get into a match, forget it, they go with what they know. It’s a cancer: You don’t know the damage until it’s too late.Beach Tennis, are those your words or Lansdorp's? I'm assuning it's Lansdorp's, since in the videos you let your student get away with using a western grip.

Anyways, I find that very hard to believe, what Lansdorp said about western grips feeling natural for kids when they first pick it up a racquet! It 'may' feel natural when picking up the racquet, but I find it very hard to believe that it feels natural to swing with that grip! I would have to say that the eastern feels the most natural (to hit with), since the face is lined up with your palm, therefore it is easy to tell where the angle of the racquet face is at without looking. Next would be the semi-western. Why the heck is he saying that the western feels natural?

I will say that nowadays you may see more and more kids start off playing tennis using the western. I don't think it's due to the grip's 'naturalness' though. I think it has to do more with the style and fad, the cool thing!

What do you have to say to this, Beach Tennis?

[snoflewis]

^^^ i don't think there is a "natural" when you've never played tennis. i think they resort to the western because it's what get's the ball over...when kids play, most the balls are like shoulder and head level for them, so using the western grip would be easier to get the ball over.

[BeachTennis]

This is the first lesson ever with this student.

Here we talk about the grip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEtSJgm5iKs

Yes her grip was off the mark

I do check her grip and tell her she will want to change it for the long haul.

remember this is first lesson with new student.

look at more then the grip

legs

finish

the 3 h's

hips

heal

head

balance

[Rep. Timothy Calhoun]

^^^ i don't think there is a "natural" when you've never played tennis. i think they resort to the western because it's what get's the ball over...when kids play, most the balls are like shoulder and head level for them, so using the western grip would be easier to get the ball over.Of course you can't say that there is a 'natural' for everyone. I was speaking in general terms though.

I do see what you are saying in that kids are shorter, and with their height relative to the ball bounce, it would be pretty comfortable to hit shoulder high balls with a western (much like how beginner adults use a western for the dinky overhead serves). So that makes sense.

Maybe the eastern feels more 'natural' for a lot of adults (taller people), then, since the face is at the same angle as the palm.

[Rep. Timothy Calhoun]

Yes her grip was off the mark

I do check her grip and tell her she will want to change it for the long haul.

remember this is first lesson with new student.

look at more then the grip

legs

finish

the 3 h's

hips

heal

head

balanceSo that's the student's first lesson, but how long has she played? I'm sure a beginner doesn't swing with 'some' form like that. She must of had some experience playing before the first lesson.

[Tomba]

It's natural using a western grip on chest high balls. I'm curious how she handles low slice balls.

[Othello]

I don't understand the commotion about her grip.
Almost every junior hits this way.
For low balls you use a buggywhip type motion to lift the ball.

[snoflewis]

I don't understand the commotion about her grip.
Almost every junior hits this way.
For low balls you use a buggywhip type motion to lift the ball.

that's the point we're trying to get to. once you have a form developed since you are like 7-8 years old, it's gonna stay, and it's going to be almost impossible to change. ie. dementieva's second serve. once you get to a competitive level, it's really hard to switch grips, especially to one that forces flatter shots.

just read the articles on landsorp.com and you will understand what i mean.

[chess9]

What I thought was important was how good her kinesthetic sense is. Her movement is excellent when one considers her age, size, the size of that bloody racquet, it being night time, and this being her first lesson. The difference between an obvious athlete and the slugs is readily apparent to most coaches. This girl has potential.

-Robert

[Othello]

that's the point we're trying to get to. once you have a form developed since you are like 7-8 years old, it's gonna stay, and it's going to be almost impossible to change. ie. dementieva's second serve. once you get to a competitive level, it's really hard to switch grips, especially to one that forces flatter shots.

just read the articles on landsorp.com and you will understand what i mean.

This presupposes that you cannot do well competitively at higher levels with extreme grips (which isn't true.)

From what I know of Landsorp, he favours classic strokes. He is going to be biased about extreme grips.

[ShooterMcMarco]

Beautiful beautiful, work with me, excellent. You should be a photographer for a modeling agency

[Ash_Smith]

Beach - how old is the pupil?

[Duzza]

lol that grip reminds me of this time this really pro guy in my team told me he used like an inside out grip, i tried it and it like killed my wrist lol. Imagine knuckles facing outward on a forhand

[Rickson]

Beach - how old is the pupil?
OK, now you're becoming like Kelsey Grammer.

[kevhen]

Pretty good footwork and form for such a young kid. Amazing seeing her hit so cleanly with a western grip.

[wyutani]

OK, now you're becoming like Kelsey Grammer.

who? the x-men guy??

[Rickson]

who? the x-men guy??
Beast, as he's known in real life to underage girls.

[Andres]

who? the x-men guy??
Kelsey Grammer isn't the guy who played FRASIER!?
Where is he in X-men?

Does he play Beast in XIII ??? (the movie isn't here yet :p)

[wyutani]

Kelsey Grammer isn't the guy who played FRASIER!?
Where is he in X-men?

Does he play Beast in XIII ??? (the movie isn't here yet :p)

he plays BEAST...the blue gorillaz...

[JCo872]

Her technique is excellent. Change the grip and this girl is going to be amazing.

[Rep. Timothy Calhoun]

I don't see such a big deal about people using extreme grips. As long as you have proper technique that doesn't allow unnecessary injury, and that you can generate enough power, I see no problems. The modern game is about tons of topspin afterall.

[JCo872]

I don't see such a big deal about people using extreme grips. As long as you have proper technique that doesn't allow unnecessary injury, and that you can generate enough power, I see no problems. The modern game is about tons of topspin afterall.

From my experience, students with extreme western grips have a horrible time learning how to volley, how to hit the backhand slice, and often how to serve. The transition from extreme western to continental isn't so easy to get. Can anyone name any pros in the top 20 who use an extreme western? Maybe Mauresmo. It's just very hard to drive through the ball with this grip. Why not just go with a semi-western and make things easier? If you look at players who really drive through the ball, like Serena, or Davenport, you see much less topspin and more drive.

[GRANITECHIEF]

From my experience, students with extreme western grips have a horrible time learning how to volley, how to hit the backhand slice, and often how to serve. The transition from extreme western to continental isn't so easy to get. Can anyone name any pros in the top 20 who use an extreme western? Maybe Mauresmo. It's just very hard to drive through the ball with this grip. Why not just go with a semi-western and make things easier? If you look at players who really drive through the ball, like Serena, or Davenport, you see much less topspin and more drive.

Great example citing the #1 player in the world.

[Rep. Timothy Calhoun]

From my experience, students with extreme western grips have a horrible time learning how to volley, how to hit the backhand slice, and often how to serve. The transition from extreme western to continental isn't so easy to get. Can anyone name any pros in the top 20 who use an extreme western? Maybe Mauresmo. It's just very hard to drive through the ball with this grip. Why not just go with a semi-western and make things easier? If you look at players who really drive through the ball, like Serena, or Davenport, you see much less topspin and more drive.I notice a lot of western grippers having a tendency to play poor at the net as well.

If someone used an ultra extreme grip, the Hawaiin grip, then it would make it convenient to volley and play close to the net.

As for western grippers, they can shift into the volley grip too with a small turn that shifts into the continental. My guess is that not too many people are skilled at using and swithching to multiple grips in the middle of play. I'm sure many have more than one grip, but I doubt that many have more than 3-4 -- which is the amount that I think western grippers should at least have (Hawaiin grippers are exceptional, because the continental and Hawaiin are one in the same kind of grips but only differ from the side of the face being used to hit the ball).

[tennis_nerd22]

ya the kids good looking, but beachtennis, i wish you were my coach :D you sound sooooo funny in the vids, lmao

[tennis_nerd22]

I notice a lot of western grippers having a tendency to play poor at the net as well.

If someone used an ultra extreme grip, the Hawaiin grip, then it would make it convenient to volley and play close to the net.

As for western grippers, they can shift into the volley grip too with a small turn that shifts into the continental. My guess is that not too many people are skilled at using and swithching to multiple grips in the middle of play. I'm sure many have more than one grip, but I doubt that many have more than 3-4 -- which is the amount that I think western grippers should at least have (Hawaiin grippers are exceptional, because the continental and Hawaiin are one in the same kind of grips but only differ from the side of the face being used to hit the ball).

except for nadal... :D

[BeachTennis]

This player has changed her game and she is now striking the ball very clean!

Remember that was the first lesson i had with her!

She is now training at tennissmith in tampa florida and comes back to south carolina and trains with us

[drake]

Lots of juniors begin with western grips "these days". Nothing wrong with learning a bit of topspin at an early age. What is odd about her grip is that the palm is "up" on the backswing. This could be a disaster as she moves up the junior ranks!

*Note to cameramom- Get a tripod!

[Bungalo Bill]

This was first lesson/ One hour session

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGFp00Q62L4

Give me some feedback ?


LOL, yeah, and I'm your Daddy. Why do you post such idiotic posts? This is not instruction nor tips.

Plus, why would someone like you that says "no wrist" have a little girl in an extreme grip and using the wrist???????

[35ft6]

This player has changed her game and she is now striking the ball very clean!

Remember that was the first lesson i had with her! Oh, I thought you were trying to say that was her first lesson ever. I like how far back she takes her racket, the tip of her racket pointing straight towards the left of side of the baseline, just like Sania Mirza. This little girl is going to have a huge forehand one day.

As for the people concerned about her grip, nothing says that her volleys HAVE to stink just because she has a western forehand. People seem to be implying a bulletproof cause and effect (western forehand causes bad volleys) but I don't think this has to be the case. Volleying is becoming a lost art regardless of what grip you use. Besides, good volleys start with the legs. I think most players have lousy volleys not because of their forehand grip, but because they don't know how to position themselves around the net.

But I don't see why a player with a western grip can't develop good volleys if their coach or parent makes them practice net play as much as it needs to be practiced. Also, teaching them a solid slice backhand, not just one used in extreme defensive positions, is important.

Another thing to consider is that some of the best volleyers of the past 25 years had "weak" forehands, and you wonder if their net game was strong out of necessity. I'm talking about people like Edberg, Mac, and Shriver. Annacone and Rafter didn't have the greatest groundstrokes either. So it seems like in most cases there's going to be a tradeoff anyway. Not everybody can be Federer.Can anyone name any pros in the top 20 who use an extreme western? Maybe Mauresmo. It's just very hard to drive through the ball with this grip. Why not just go with a semi-western and make things easier? If you look at players who really drive through the ball, like Serena, or Davenport, you see much less topspin and more drive. Not sure what you mean by "extreme western," but top players with western forehands: Hingis, Clijsters, Petrova, Dementieva, Henin (at least sometimes), and Kuznetsova to name a few. I think Serena uses a western grip, too. I would think at least Petrova and Clijsters would qualify for extreme western.

[TennisAsAlways]

Oh, I thought you were trying to say that was her first lesson ever. I like how far back she takes her racket, the tip of her racket pointing straight towards the left of side of the baseline, just like Sania Mirza. This little girl is going to have a huge forehand one day.

As for the people concerned about her grip, nothing says that her volleys HAVE to stink just because she has a western forehand. People seem to be implying a bulletproof cause and effect (western forehand causes bad volleys) but I don't think this has to be the case. Volleying is becoming a lost art regardless of what grip you use. Besides, good volleys start with the legs. I think most players have lousy volleys not because of their forehand grip, but because they don't know how to position themselves around the net.

But I don't see why a player with a western grip can't develop good volleys if their coach or parent makes them practice net play as much as it needs to be practiced. Also, teaching them a solid slice backhand, not just one used in extreme defensive positions, is important.

Another thing to consider is that some of the best volleyers of the past 25 years had "weak" forehands, and you wonder if their net game was strong out of necessity. I'm talking about people like Edberg, Mac, and Shriver. Annacone and Rafter didn't have the greatest groundstrokes either. So it seems like in most cases there's going to be a tradeoff anyway. Not everybody can be Federer. Not sure what you mean by "extreme western," but top players with western forehands: Hingis, Clijsters, Petrova, Dementieva, Henin (at least sometimes), and Kuznetsova to name a few. I think Serena uses a western grip, too. I would think at least Petrova and Clijsters would qualify for extreme western.As for the people concerned about her grip, nothing says that her volleys HAVE to stink just because she has a western forehand. People seem to be implying a bulletproof cause and effect (western forehand causes bad volleys) but I don't think this has to be the case. Agreed! Taylor Dent is currently the best volleyer (IMO) and he uses a Western grip. He's "only" ranked 30 something!

[35ft6]

^ Pretty sure Rafter did, too.

[BeachTennis]

This player has changed her game and she is now striking the ball very clean!

Remember that was the first lesson i had with her!

She is now training at tennissmith in tampa florida and comes back to south carolina and trains with us


Yes this player had played for years and taken lesson from lots of pros and trained in Florida at one of the big ones

That session with me was the first lesson with me!

I was like wow this kid is a thinker and a feeler.

What I got her to do in a one-hour lesson was crazy!

Most juniors at her level do not want to change!

All they care about is the ranking points.

Everyone is afraid to loose to people they are beating! In order to improve one must be willing to go backwards before moving forwards.

Become comfortable with the uncomfortable.

The New improved player video is coming soon!

[BeachTennis]

LOL, yeah, and I'm your Daddy. Why do you post such idiotic posts? This is not instruction nor tips.

Plus, why would someone like you that says "no wrist" have a little girl in an extreme grip and using the wrist???????

BB Thanks

There is more to the picture then the eye can see

Did you watch the whole thing!


You dont think that there were tips and instruction

for sure that lesson had the

3-E's of a Tennis lesson

Exercise

Education

Enjoyment

Did you see the video where she does th eshadow swing!

We cover some major check points and talk about the grip!

Looking forward to the feedback of the improved player video

Thanks again

[Bungalo Bill]

BB Thanks

There is more to the picture then the eye can see



Sure is, did you see the guy standing behind you waving at you with one finger held up? That was me.

[35ft6]

Just out of curiosity... Beachtennis, why are you posting these videos? Does the kid's parents know you're posting them?

(I don't think there's anything weird going on, it's just that you keep saying "looking forward to feedback" and such, but you don't really engage in discussion...)

[Rep. Timothy Calhoun]

Just out of curiosity... Beachtennis, why are you posting these videos? Does the kid's parents know you're posting them?

(I don't think there's anything weird going on, it's just that you keep saying "looking forward to feedback" and such, but you don't really engage in discussion...)Very true. People have been rating the videos and have given feedback yet Beach Tennis hasn't responded in any way such as:
"Why do you think his FH is not right?" or "Her backswing is too loopy but it was worse before!" or "Yes, you're right. His swing is not as fluid as it could be.? etc!

Eric, what's going on? And no, I am not bashing you, just as curious as 35ft6 is.

[Bungalo Bill]

Very true. People have been rating the videos and have given feedback yet Beach Tennis hasn't responded in any way such as:

He doesn't know how too. That is why he has not answered several of my threads. He doesn't have the answers.

This also stems into my rationale in asking him why he is here? Why is he posting this stuff? What does it mean? He says the girl learned tennis in an hour which is painfully obvious she has been playing for several years.

There are other forums here that can discuss nutty things that lead to nowhere land.[/quote]