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Mr.Groundstroke
05-23-2006, 08:28 AM
When my forehand had an offday I made this video, so please give me some tips on my forehand.
Click Here for clip (http://members.home.nl/pratingen/MOV02460.MPG)
Note: I used an eastern there but now I use a grip more to the SW-bevel.


N


CRITICIZE MY FOREHAND(why the hell can't we edit our threadtitle?)

JCo872
05-23-2006, 08:48 AM
Hey,

You have a nice stroke. You need to fix your finish though. I compared your finish to two pros here:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/account/nick/

On the finish the elbow needs to point towards the net and the butt of the racket should point toward the net as well. The racket should finish between your waist and your shoulders, not up high like yours does.

Jeff

Mr.Groundstroke
05-23-2006, 09:00 AM
Hey,

You have a nice stroke. You need to fix your finish though. I compared your finish to two pros here:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/account/nick/

On the finish the elbow needs to point towards the net and the butt of the racket should point toward the net as well. The racket should finish between your waist and your shoulders, not up high like yours does.

Jeff
Thanks Jeff

Jonnyf
05-23-2006, 09:06 AM
Forget it found the answer,

Now Mr. Groundstrokes on contact everything looks fine but the follow hrough (like said above) should be lower

drakulie
05-23-2006, 09:08 AM
You need to fix your finish though. On the finish the elbow needs to point towards the net and the butt of the racket should point toward the net as well. The racket should finish between your waist and your shoulders, not up high like yours does.
Jeff

Sorry but I totally disagree. As long as you have a solid swing before, during and immediately after contact who cares what the "finish" looks like. That is considering you are not abruptly stopping the swing immediately after contact is made. Most pros have different "finished positions". Some high, some low, some look like they are going to wrap thier arms around their neck, etc. Also if you are putting lots of topspin on the ball the "finish" is going to more likely be high.

JCo872
05-23-2006, 09:17 AM
Thanks Jeff
You are welcome. I just added some more to the comparison, so revisit the link:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/account/nick/

JCo872
05-23-2006, 09:17 AM
Sorry but I totally disagree. As long as you have a solid swing before, during and immediately after contact who cares what the "finish" looks like. That is considering you are not abruptly stopping the swing immediately after contact is made. Most pros have different "finished positions". Some high, some low, some look like they are going to wrap thier arms around their neck, etc. Also if you are putting lots of topspin on the ball the "finish" is going to more likely be high.

I totally disagree with you. I have never seen a pro, a college player, or a good junior player end like Nick does. Ever. And the idea that a topspin forehand ends with a high finish is completely wrong. It's the other way around. The more topspin the lower the finish. You are talking about the old school eastern forehand where you swing low to high. The pros, college players, and high school players don't hit like that, and haven't for over 20 years. In the sample I posted for Nick I just chose the first three endings I could find. I could post 200 more just like it and you would see the same thing.

Roddick The Beast
05-23-2006, 09:36 AM
I totally disagree with you. I have never seen a pro, a college player, or a good junior player end like Nick does. Ever. And the idea that a topspin forehand ends with a high finish is completely wrong. It's the other way around. The more topspin the lower the finish. You are talking about the old school eastern forehand where you swing low to high. The pros, college players, and high school players don't hit like that, and haven't for over 20 years. In the sample I posted for Nick I just choose the first three endings I could find. I could post 200 more just like it and you would see the same thing.JCo972, on my FH topspin, I finish with the racquet wrap around my neck, no higher than just above the shoulder. Now I have a "modern" western grip where the handle points at the ball to AND through contact (On waist level balls, I hit with racquet vertical, pulling it up over the ball). That shot of mine is very effective, but I am very concerned about what style it would fall under. I don't want "my finish" to look like one of an "older classic player's".

I know that my swing is modern, BUT, with the high finish, would you say that is "Old School"??? I am very concerned! I don't want to be left in the dust with an "outdated" finish! Please give me your honest feedback. Thank you so very much in advance. I'd really appreciate your expertise on this.

JCo872
05-23-2006, 09:56 AM
JCo972, on my FH topspin, I finish with the racquet wrap around my neck, no higher than just above the shoulder. Now I have a "modern" western grip where the handle points at the ball to AND through contact (On waist level balls, I hit with racquet vertical, pulling it up over the ball). That shot of mine is very effective, but I am very concerned about what style it would fall under. I don't want "my finish" to look like one of an "older classic player's".

I know that my swing is modern, BUT, with the high finish, would you say that is "Old School"??? I am very concerned! I don't want to be left in the dust with an "outdated" finish! Please give me your honest feedback. Thank you so very much in advance. I'd really appreciate your expertise on this.

No your ending sounds fine. It's more about the butt of the racket and the elbow pointing towards the net, not so much the height. If you look at Nick's finish, he finishes with the top of his racket pointing straight up to the sky and the butt of the racket pointing straight down. That is the old school piece I was talking about.

Look at the ending I just posted of Djokovic:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/account/nick/

He finishes higher, but you can see that his elbow points toward the net and so does the butt of his racket. Those are the key markers of the modern ending. As long as you have those two positions at the end, your forehand is fine.

This ending, by the way, isn't just for show. It is the result of getting the body through the ball and applying torque to the shot. John Yandell refers to it as hand and arm rotation. Heath Waters calls the "Millenium Ending". When people say that pros "have any number of different endings" it's just plain wrong. They end the same way because they hit the same way using the same principles and techniques.

If you have any video, shoot it my way and I'll compare to the pros.

Also, if you are curious about what the modern forehand looks like before the wrap, check out this link here:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/ending.cfm

In that picture I take six different players and show how they all hit the same reference points before the wrap. Tennis technique has become a science. If you follow the patterns you get the results. Plain and simple.

Jeff

JCo872
05-23-2006, 10:18 AM
Forget it found the answer,

Now Mr. Groundstrokes on contact everything looks fine but the follow hrough (like said above) should be lower

Hey Jonnyf. To become a member of hi-techtennis, just go here and sign up:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/unlock.cfm

You can preview a few videos and a sample lesson, with the option of unlocking all the videos and lessons.

Jeff

Roddick The Beast
05-23-2006, 10:26 AM
No your ending sounds fine. It's more about the butt of the racket and the elbow pointing towards the net, not so much the height. If you look at Nick's finish, he finishes with the top of his racket pointing straight up to the sky and the butt of the racket pointing straight down. That is the old school piece I was talking about.

Look at the ending I just posted of Djokovic:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/account/nick/

He finishes higher, but you can see that his elbow points toward the net and so does the butt of his racket. Those are the key markers of the modern ending. As long as you have those two positions at the end, your forehand is fine.

This ending, by the way, isn't just for show. It is the result of getting the body through the ball and applying torque to the shot. John Yandell refers to it as hand and arm rotation. Heath Waters calls the "Millenium Ending". When people say that pros "have any number of different endings" it's just plain wrong. They end the same way because they hit the same way using the same principles and techniques.

If you have any video, shoot it my way and I'll compare to the pros.

JeffThanks alot JC0872!!! BTW, I wasn't asking that you tell me my FH finish is okay, just because I wanted to HEAR someone say it. I really was asking for you to be critical and honest, according to how you think it is. Thanks.

And about my finish, I do not consciously wrap it. I pull the racquet handle to the ball, and during contact, upon going through the ball, I just stay relaxed and it deflects like that on its own. I basically just let it move on its own.

The way the finish looks like is, the stringbed faces the left (I'm righty) from pronation with my arm wrapped around my neck (not completely). The racquet sort of droops down, due to the relaxed wrist.

Is this what you are talking about, Jeff?:

The Old FH:

http://f5.putfile.com/5/14214221718.gif




The New FH (like my finish, over the shoulder):

http://f5.putfile.com/5/14214235380.gif

Roddick The Beast
05-23-2006, 10:34 AM
Jeff, I just reviewed the links that you provided. What concerns me is this, everything about my finish looks like the pros' pics on your site, BUT, I have noticed that non of them had finishes where the racquet rests on the shoulders or touch the shoulders (like the way a lot of my topspin FHs do). That is one thing that I would like to address to you.

Mountainman
05-23-2006, 10:57 AM
Don't need to be technical. Just throw your elbow out. The swing should be natural and consistent.

Flexxed
05-23-2006, 11:40 AM
What kind of strings are you using Mr.Groundstroke?

Nice forehand. It kind of looks like you slow your racquet down instead of letting it stop on its own on the follow through. That can sometimes lead to inconsistency.

jackson vile
05-23-2006, 11:48 AM
Hey,

You have a nice stroke. You need to fix your finish though. I compared your finish to two pros here:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/account/nick/

On the finish the elbow needs to point towards the net and the butt of the racket should point toward the net as well. The racket should finish between your waist and your shoulders, not up high like yours does.

Jeff


Well here is the thing, the elbow and racket is this position is not something you should be attempting to achive, this is a resultant of properly whiping the racket and wiping/spin the ball.

It is like someone say land on this or that foot at the end of the serve, that is not what matters that is just an end result that affects nothing.


I suggest working on spinning more and riding the ball more and hitting more out front, but this may be a problem because you racket is so stiff and it seems you may be using a poly and if so I may guess that you have higher tensions as well. Also the more you use the body, the large the swing, the more the whip ect the more the body will naturally wrap at the end

As a result you are not getting as much time in contact with the ball and thus when you go to spin it is not fallowing through as the ball is leaving too early.


You will get better control with working on your spin and not trying to keep all your shots so low/flat.


Just think you want a fuller and fuller swing motion not just in the begining but the end also, so spin that ball all the way over.

Also his back hand looked real nice.

Those are just my opinions and I am no pro so feel free to ignore;)

JCo872
05-23-2006, 07:40 PM
Well here is the thing, the elbow and racket is this position is not something you should be attempting to achive, this is a resultant of properly whiping the racket and wiping/spin the ball.

It is like someone say land on this or that foot at the end of the serve, that is not what matters that is just an end result that affects nothing.


I suggest working on spinning more and riding the ball more and hitting more out front, but this may be a problem because you racket is so stiff and it seems you may be using a poly and if so I may guess that you have higher tensions as well. Also the more you use the body, the large the swing, the more the whip ect the more the body will naturally wrap at the end

As a result you are not getting as much time in contact with the ball and thus when you go to spin it is not fallowing through as the ball is leaving too early.


You will get better control with working on your spin and not trying to keep all your shots so low/flat.


Just think you want a fuller and fuller swing motion not just in the begining but the end also, so spin that ball all the way over.

Also his back hand looked real nice.

Those are just my opinions and I am no pro so feel free to ignore;)

I both agree with you and disagree. I still think the finish is something you need to model at first when learning this shot. But I agree that Nick isn't "getting enough time in contact with the ball". Absolutely. That's the bigger problem. It's just that with his video it's very hard to see what is happening at contact.

JCo872
05-23-2006, 07:43 PM
Thanks alot JC0872!!! BTW, I wasn't asking that you tell me my FH finish is okay, just because I wanted to HEAR someone say it. I really was asking for you to be critical and honest, according to how you think it is. Thanks.

And about my finish, I do not consciously wrap it. I pull the racquet handle to the ball, and during contact, upon going through the ball, I just stay relaxed and it deflects like that on its own. I basically just let it move on its own.

The way the finish looks like is, the stringbed faces the left (I'm righty) from pronation with my arm wrapped around my neck (not completely). The racquet sort of droops down, due to the relaxed wrist.

Is this what you are talking about, Jeff?:

The Old FH:

http://f5.putfile.com/5/14214221718.gif




The New FH (like my finish, over the shoulder):

http://f5.putfile.com/5/14214235380.gif

Yeah that's great stuff! The old forehand is wrong. The new one looks great. I'd love to see some video though to see the entire shot.

Roddick The Beast
05-23-2006, 07:48 PM
^ That's not me. I found that on the internet, from some hawaiin teaching pro. I just used those pics (mainly the last frames on both diagrams) in order to show you what my follow-through looked like vs the classic one.

JCo872
05-23-2006, 07:54 PM
^ That's not me. I found that on the internet, from some hawaiin teaching pro. I just used those pics (mainly the last frames on both diagrams) in order to show you what my follow-through looked like vs the classic one.

Gotcha. If you have any pics of your own send em my way. Sounds like your forehand is good though.

limitup
05-23-2006, 09:58 PM
Yeah that's great stuff! The old forehand is wrong.

What's interesting is that the old "wrong" forehand is exactly what tons of people still teach. For example, on page 42-43 of John Yandell's "Visual Tennis" - which is a pretty darn popular book - you'll see almost the exact same set of pictures, with the racquet ending up pointing straight up in the air, with the grip facing straight down. And his tennisplayer.net is probably the most popular site of all.

I figured I'd read this book since so many people say good things about it, but so far I'm still trying to figure out why. I think some of the kinetics stuff is helpful, maybe that's it ...

Roddick The Beast
05-23-2006, 10:03 PM
Do you people know what really drives me crazy? . . . well the thing is, the commentators keep saying that Davenport has a "classic" FH! Her FH doesn't look like the one in the pic that I posted! Everything looks pretty "modern" to me! The only thing that looks "different" is her grip.

Do they mean that she has a "classic FH", meaning that she has a classic eastern grip?

can smeone please explain this to me. I am lost! Thanks. :mrgreen:

shindemac
05-23-2006, 10:26 PM
Can anyone explain why the classic forehand is wrong? What's the diff. between the 2 grips? Does one give you more power or spin? Is one easier to do?

Edit. I don't mean grips, I mean the 2 different styles of strokes/swings/whatever. Classic forehand vs. modern forehand.

armand
05-23-2006, 10:33 PM
When my forehand had an offday I made this video, so please give me some tips on my forehand.
Click Here for clip (http://members.home.nl/pratingen/MOV02460.MPG)
Note: I used an eastern there but now I use a grip more to the SW-bevel.


N


CRITICIZE MY FOREHAND(why the hell can't we edit our threadtitle?)Looks pretty good except that it appears you're doing a sort of pseudo reverse forehand. It looks like you're holding back your swing a little for fear of too much power(it's a PD afterall) but without the benefit of extra spin that the reverse forehand provides.

You're barely turning, not really putting your entire body into it either. Perhaps your style is not to put your all into your shots.

What's your string? You don't feel that your racquet/strings give you too much power? If so:

I see that your tension is 26kg which converts to 57lbs. Very loose and powerful. Try poly. If you're already on poly, try a less powerful racquet. Just a thought.

Mr.Groundstroke
05-24-2006, 01:58 AM
I use wilson enduro gold
I think Jeff is doing a great thing with his site and I believe that he has some really good tips so i'm certainly going to let the elbow and the buttcap point the net after the followthrough.
I'll let you guys know if it worked out well and i'm going to make a video of it as well.


Thanks for all your tips guys but keep those tips coming:)

JCo872
05-24-2006, 04:13 AM
Can anyone explain why the classic forehand is wrong? What's the diff. between the 2 grips? Does one give you more power or spin? Is one easier to do?

Great question shindemac.


The classic forehand is definitely not wrong at all. No way. I know many players that have beautiful classic forehands and can hit the ball clean and hard. I also know many people that hit the modern way and don't do it correctly so their forehands aren't very good. Simply wrapping the racket head at the end of the stroke does not in anyway guarantee that you are hitting the shot correctly. You have to stay on the right side of your body after contact to hit the ball cleanly and get lift on the ball. If you just wrap around you won't get that.

I would teach a beginner the classic forehand. It teaches all the basics of clean contact, wrist laid back. It's easier to
hit through the ball this way. With a few adjustments you can turn it into the modern forehand.

It's just that you can't have that high finish if you are a junior tournament player or want to be a good high school player or want to play in college today. You just don't see the classic forehand ending today in junior, college, or pro tennis.

I think John's book is amazing in it's ideas about modeling a stroke. Everyone learning should develop "stroke keys" as John describes. If you subscribe to his site, John describes the modern forehand where hand and arm turn over at the end. But he does a great job of showing the pre wrap positions as well, which are crucial.

JCo872
05-24-2006, 05:19 AM
Do you people know what really drives me crazy? . . . well the thing is, the commentators keep saying that Davenport has a "classic" FH! Her FH doesn't look like the one in the pic that I posted! Everything looks pretty "modern" to me! The only thing that looks "different" is her grip.

Do they mean that she has a "classic FH", meaning that she has a classic eastern grip?

can smeone please explain this to me. I am lost! Thanks. :mrgreen:

Yeah I always say the same thing about her forehand not being classic!

JCo872
05-24-2006, 06:09 AM
Don't need to be technical. Just throw your elbow out. The swing should be natural and consistent.

JCo872
05-24-2006, 06:25 AM
I use wilson enduro gold
I think Jeff is doing a great thing with his site and I believe that he has some really good tips so i'm certainly going to let the elbow and the buttcap point the net after the followthrough.
I'll let you guys know if it worked out well and i'm going to make a video of it as well.


Thanks for all your tips guys but keep those tips coming:)

Thanks a lot Nick. I appreciate it. One more thing to incorporate what jackson vile is saying about "getting as much time in contact with the ball". He is exactly right. To do this, check out the Federer video on my homepage:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/. Go frame by frame by first clicking on the video and then use your arrow keys. Check out the frame on contact and the next two frames after contact. See how Federer lifts straight up the back of the ball and goes forward a few inches. He stays behind the ball and stays on the right side of his body before wrapping at the end. This gets you maximum contact with the ball. I go into a lot of detail in my course about this and give many examples, but you can see it just in that video there if you step through frame by frame. You are coming off the ball too quickly. Read BB's description in the post below as well. Practice lifting up the back of the ball like Federer does and going straight through the ball for a few inches to get clean contact. Then you can go into the finish with the elbow pointing forward and the butt of the racket pointing forward. I am going to be writing an article about this for tennisplayer.net soon.

Nick I think your forehand is going to be awesome if you get this. Your preparation and approach into the ball are excellent. You are very close to getting a first class forehand. Can't wait to see some more video.

Also, I can help you with your backhand as well. It looks like the same thing with your forehand. Very very close, but in need of a few adjustments. Can you get some clearer video? Perhaps shoot the video outside and a little closer? BB could help you take that shot to a new level. The one hander isn't my speciality but I can see that your hitting arm isn't locked.

Jeff

Bungalo Bill
05-24-2006, 06:48 AM
Well here is the thing, the elbow and racket is this position is not something you should be attempting to achive, this is a resultant of properly whiping the racket and wiping/spin the ball.

Actually JC is right in reviewing the motion of the elbow. It is extremely critical to achieve the proper motion in this area as it provides the foundation of a stable and accelerating racquet face. The roll of the elbow moving forward being the initating upper body part to allow the shoulders to rotate PROPERLY is critical.

It is like someone say land on this or that foot at the end of the serve, that is not what matters that is just an end result that affects nothing.

I have no idea why you are butting in on this stuff. It is obvious to me that you dont know what you are talking about. Landing on the proper foot helps faciliate RECOVERY, BALANCE, and if necessary forward movement. If you are not an instructor, I suggest you take the back seat.


I suggest working on spinning more and riding the ball more and hitting more out front, but this may be a problem because you racket is so stiff

It has nothing to do with the damn racquet! Come on man! It is pure technique! I suggest he learn to go through the ball more and get that elbow in front of his body during contact, extend through the shot and allow to the arm to come over and finish as his SWING PATH dictates.

and it seems you may be using a poly and if so I may guess that you have higher tensions as well.

Geeez...dont even want to comment on this one.

Also the more you use the body, the large the swing, the more the whip ect the more the body will naturally wrap at the end

The use of rotation is what needs to be properly implemented. The role of the elbow is critical as both work together for racquet acceleration. Add the wrist release and a player can have a worldclass forehand.

A person just doesn't ROTATE MORE. This kind of tip leads to people overswinging and doing dumb things.

As a result you are not getting as much time in contact with the ball and thus when you go to spin it is not fallowing through as the ball is leaving too early.

If you look at the Federer clips in slo-mo, you would notice that at the impact area the racquet goes straight for about 4 - 8 inches. This is critical and the elbow plays a key roll in maintaining this linear path. This linear path is what promotes clean contact and a player penetrating to through the ball. POWER = CLEAN CONTACT + LINEAR PATH.

At normal speeds, it is very difficult to detect this in Rodger's stroke path because it happens so fast.

You will get better control with working on your spin and not trying to keep all your shots so low/flat.

Well I wont argue with you that spin does help control the ball. But players need to learn how to let the swing path and the natural rising of the body and hand create the spin first. This way a player gets in tuned with their body and how it can help apply power and spin.

A player concentrating on "more" spin tends to lead to a short stroke and more of an upward poking swing path.

This player needs to continue to work on going through the ball with the SW grip. They needs to understand the role of the elbow and how it brings the racquet forward AND controls shoulder rotation. As a player develops their feel in this, the stroke becomes both powerful and natural.

Bungalo Bill
05-24-2006, 06:53 AM
When my forehand had an offday I made this video, so please give me some tips on my forehand.
Click Here for clip (http://members.home.nl/pratingen/MOV02460.MPG)
Note: I used an eastern there but now I use a grip more to the SW-bevel.


N


CRITICIZE MY FOREHAND(why the hell can't we edit our threadtitle?)

I think you have enough feedback on the stroke. Please work on maintaining a lower stance in your rally's. This will help you use more of your legs in your stroke.

From what I can tell, it is your backhand that needs some attention rather than your forehand.

kevhen
05-24-2006, 06:56 AM
Agree with Bill on this. Forehand looks ok, but you avoid the backhand!

Roddick The Beast
05-24-2006, 06:59 AM
Yeah I always say the same thing about her forehand not being classic!Ok, thanks for giving me YOUR opinion. Good to know that YOU have actually THOUGHT about THIS before! This confirms that I am not alone on that. Haha :D So, I am not all that crazy.

Thanks Jeff!

Can anyone explain why the classic forehand is wrong? What's the diff. between the 2 grips? Does one give you more power or spin? Is one easier to do?

Now let me answer Shine's question (I have insulted him 10 times before, so now I will be nice :D ). There is NO difference in grips between a MODERN and a CLASSIC stroke! It's the swing path, weight transfer, body rotation, and (partly) stance that determines the type of stroke.

By using a classic eastern grip, that doesn't make it automatically a "classic stroke"! For instance, Davenport has a "classic grip", but as Jeff has confirmed with me, she does NOT have a "classic stroke".

There's a difference between classis "grip" and "stroke". This was what made me confused earlier.

It's jsut that very few MODERN players use an eastern grip, and so that might make you think that by having an eastern grip, it is automatically considered a classic stroke -- that's NOT true. Let's say you told Roddick to change to an eastern (he uses a western), but keep his stroke the same. His FH would still be a MODERN one, but a MODERN eastern grip FH rather than the orginal "MODERN western grip FH". So you see what I am saying?

Hopefully, you are no longer full of anger and resentment. Hahah :mrgreen:

Bungalo Bill
05-24-2006, 07:03 AM
Stabilizing the Rotation Transition

In order to stabilize the arm as you speed up your rotation, we have developed the following exercise. After you use it to develop a sense of how your body is moving, you will likely forget it. If at some future time you find your shots becoming inconsistent, you might come back to this exercise.


The exercise is illustrated in the figure above. In this figure, Becky is positioning her index finger and thumb between her elbow and hip with a space of 4 to 6 inches. Then, as she rotates, she maintains this distance. This exercise starts the process of creating an awareness (in technical terms, somatosensory mesoscopic assemblies) of the relative position of your elbow and hip.

Why Bother?

In order for you to become consistent at high ball speeds, you need to develop an advanced sense of your body movements. It sounds like a big effort, but it is not. You might develop this sense in a few minutes. Neural plasticity allows even very complex motions to be achieved due in as little as forty minutes. For high-speed tennis, you must rotate quickly while maintaining control of your arm position. If you have no internal awareness of this position, you will find that your elbow can drift outward, causing the racquet to turn downward.


The point of an exercise is not to form a rule or habit, but rather to develop a sense of your body's movement for use as the situation requires. When you are playing, your brain will make use without your awareness of the connections you develop from an exercise. You will experience this in the form of increased consistency.

http://www.easitennis2.com/members/TransitionExercise1.jpg

COURTESY OF EASI TENNIS. www.easitennis.com

Roddick The Beast
05-24-2006, 07:07 AM
I think you have enough feedback on the stroke. Please work on maintaining a lower stance in your rally's. This will help you use more of your legs in your stroke.

From what I can tell, it is your backhand that needs some at1tention rather than your forehand.Thanks! I forget to stay "very" low sometimes. I'll explain why, next time! :mrgreen:

JCo872
05-24-2006, 07:29 AM
Actually JC is right in reviewing the motion of the elbow. It is extremely critical to achieve the proper motion in this area as it provides the foundation of a stable and accelerating racquet face. The roll of the elbow moving forward being the initating upper body part to allow the shoulders to rotate PROPERLY is critical.



I have no idea why you are butting in on this stuff. It is obvious to me that you dont know what you are talking about. Landing on the proper foot helps faciliate RECOVERY, BALANCE, and if necessary forward movement. If you are not an instructor, I suggest you take the back seat.




It has nothing to do with the damn racquet! Come on man! It is pure technique! I suggest he learn to go through the ball more and get that elbow in front of his body during contact, extend through the shot and allow to the arm to come over and finish as his SWING PATH dictates.



Geeez...dont even want to comment on this one.



The use of rotation is what needs to be properly implemented. The role of the elbow is critical as both work together for racquet acceleration. Add the wrist release and a player can have a worldclass forehand.

A person just doesn't ROTATE MORE. This kind of tip leads to people overswinging and doing dumb things.



If you look at the Federer clips in slo-mo, you would notice that at the impact area the racquet goes straight for about 4 - 8 inches. This is critical and the elbow plays a key roll in maintaining this linear path. This linear path is what promotes clean contact and a player penetrating to through the ball. POWER = CLEAN CONTACT + LINEAR PATH.

At normal speeds, it is very difficult to detect this in Rodger's stroke path because it happens so fast.



Well I wont argue with you that spin does help control the ball. But players need to learn how to let the swing path and the natural rising of the body and hand create the spin first. This way a player gets in tuned with their body and how it can help apply power and spin.

A player concentrating on "more" spin tends to lead to a short stroke and more of an upward poking swing path.

This player needs to continue to work on going through the ball with the SW grip. They needs to understand the role of the elbow and how it brings the racquet forward AND controls shoulder rotation. As a player develops their feel in this, the stroke becomes both powerful and natural.

Great post BB. Especially this:

"But players need to learn how to let the swing path and the natural rising of the body and hand create the spin first. This way a player gets in tuned with their body and how it can help apply power and spin."

I have a side clip of Ginepri that shows this EXACTLY as you describe.

Clean contact, the natural rising of the body and hand. Those are the keys to power. Yandell calls it "keeping the hand behind the ball". If you tell someone to "spin" the ball then they won't get that clean contact through the ball you describe. And exactly right about Federer. It really looks like he just whips to the left, but it's an illusion. He stays right behind the ball and goes right "through it" as you say. I was actually surpised when I went through my video frame by frame to see how he stays behind the ball like that. You miss it entirely on TV.

Did you get a chance to see the new Oscar Wegner clip on TennisOne? It's unbelievable. He says that the pros whip to the left on contact and he gives some crazy reason why. Something about spinning a rock on a rope. I mean it's absolutely, totally, completley insane. A guaranteed recipe for disaster. Has he never seen slow motion video before??

JCo872
05-24-2006, 07:36 AM
Ok, thanks for giving me YOUR opinion. Good to know that YOU have actually THOUGHT about THIS before! This confirms that I am not alone on that. Haha :D So, I am not all that crazy.

Thanks Jeff!



Now let me answer Shine's question (I have insulted him 10 times before, so now I will be nice :D ). There is NO difference in grips betweet a MODERN and a CLASSIC stroke! It's the swing path, weight transfer, body rotation, and (partly) stance that determines the type of stroke.

By using a classic eastern grip, that doesn't make it automatically a "classic stroke"! For instance, Davenport has a "classic grip", but as Jeff has confirmed with me, she does NOT have a "classic stroke".

There's a difference between classis "grip" and "stroke". This what what made me confused earlier.

It's jsut that very few MODERN players use an eastern grip, and so that might make you think that by having an eastern grip, it is automatically considered a classic stroke -- that's NOT true. Let's say you told Roddick to change to an eastern (he uses a western), but keep his stroke the same. His FH would still be a MODERN one, but a MODERN eastern grip FH rather than the orginal "MODERN western grip FH". So you see what I am saying?

Hopefully, you are no longer full of anger and resentment. Hahah :mrgreen:

Exactly. The best player I have worked with came to me with an Eastern forehand and it had all the elements of the modern forehand. In fact I didn't even look at his grip for a long time because I assumed it was semi-western because of the path of the stroke and the power and spin being generated. I was suprised to be honest when I saw he was in a solid eastern grip. However, when we moved it a little more to semi-western just to see what would happen, the power difference was pretty significant. He was already crushing the ball with eastern, but the semi western took things to a scary level. He made the transition pretty much immediately because his swing path was identical. So I agree 100%. Lindsay probably has a "classic" grip. But the forehand itself? Modern all the way.

Bungalo Bill
05-24-2006, 10:57 AM
Great post BB. Especially this:

"But players need to learn how to let the swing path and the natural rising of the body and hand create the spin first. This way a player gets in tuned with their body and how it can help apply power and spin."

I have a side clip of Ginepri that shows this EXACTLY as you describe.

Clean contact, the natural rising of the body and hand. Those are the keys to power. Yandell calls it "keeping the hand behind the ball". If you tell someone to "spin" the ball then they won't get that clean contact through the ball you describe. And exactly right about Federer. It really looks like he just whips to the left, but it's an illusion. He stays right behind the ball and goes right "through it" as you say. I was actually surpised when I went through my video frame by frame to see how he stays behind the ball like that. You miss it entirely on TV.

Did you get a chance to see the new Oscar Wegner clip on TennisOne? It's unbelievable. He says that the pros whip to the left on contact and he gives some crazy reason why. Something about spinning a rock on a rope. I mean it's absolutely, totally, completley insane. A guaranteed recipe for disaster. Has he never seen slow motion video before??

...and pros don't prepare their backswing before the bounce...yeah, yeah, I hear about it. How any times have I argued that one. ;)

Roddick The Beast
05-24-2006, 11:29 AM
...and pros don't prepare their backswing before the bounce...yeah, yeah, I hear about it. How any times have I argued that one. ;)Nuh aw!!?? They DO prepare early, as the ball is appraoaching them, right???? If that's not true, then what the hell have I've been learning from Bollettiere?

jackson vile
05-24-2006, 11:46 AM
Actually JC is right in reviewing the motion of the elbow. It is extremely critical to achieve the proper motion in this area as it provides the foundation of a stable and accelerating racquet face. The roll of the elbow moving forward being the initating upper body part to allow the shoulders to rotate PROPERLY is critical.



I have no idea why you are butting in on this stuff. It is obvious to me that you dont know what you are talking about. Landing on the proper foot helps faciliate RECOVERY, BALANCE, and if necessary forward movement. If you are not an instructor, I suggest you take the back seat.




It has nothing to do with the damn racquet! Come on man! It is pure technique! I suggest he learn to go through the ball more and get that elbow in front of his body during contact, extend through the shot and allow to the arm to come over and finish as his SWING PATH dictates.



Geeez...dont even want to comment on this one.



The use of rotation is what needs to be properly implemented. The role of the elbow is critical as both work together for racquet acceleration. Add the wrist release and a player can have a worldclass forehand.

A person just doesn't ROTATE MORE. This kind of tip leads to people overswinging and doing dumb things.



If you look at the Federer clips in slo-mo, you would notice that at the impact area the racquet goes straight for about 4 - 8 inches. This is critical and the elbow plays a key roll in maintaining this linear path. This linear path is what promotes clean contact and a player penetrating to through the ball. POWER = CLEAN CONTACT + LINEAR PATH.

At normal speeds, it is very difficult to detect this in Rodger's stroke path because it happens so fast.



Well I wont argue with you that spin does help control the ball. But players need to learn how to let the swing path and the natural rising of the body and hand create the spin first. This way a player gets in tuned with their body and how it can help apply power and spin.

A player concentrating on "more" spin tends to lead to a short stroke and more of an upward poking swing path.

This player needs to continue to work on going through the ball with the SW grip. They needs to understand the role of the elbow and how it brings the racquet forward AND controls shoulder rotation. As a player develops their feel in this, the stroke becomes both powerful and natural.


Really not sure why you take everything so personal:confused:

But anyways, no matter how you slice it the end of all movements is a by product of a proper full natural movement.

For instance, if you where so take a slow very short swing the elbow would not wrap and you should not foce it.

Also consider that the very begining of any movment will dictate what is capable at the end of them movement

If you do not have a proper full take back ect you aren't going to wrap anything

As stated you are not looking to force a wrap at the end, you are looking to whip more/pulling the racket through the shot more and rotating the elbow more while in contact with the ball, that will increase the spin and will naturally cause you to wrap.

What a lot of people don't understand is that modern tennis is built upon proper mechanics, and proper mechanics is natural, that is why you are able to get the energy out of them that you can

You can really see this with the serve, when done right it take almost no energy, but if done incorectly and you attempt to force the speed of the movement and that finish you will not only become very tired but lose control ect


And it is a FACT! that you should not force the body to finish like this or that, if you are not wraping or landing on this or that foot it is because your techniqe is not proper, when you hit a serve right you will naturally land properly, just the same you will naturally leave the ground for a split second, but that does not mean that you should try to leave the ground as that is a natural part of the chain.

I notice I don't wrap if I don't hit in front enough or don't spin enough/rotating the elbow enough as I pull the racket through the motion.


The wraping is just a moot point and doing it is not going to help his shot, however spining the ball more/ more rotation of the elbow (as we all know that is how you spin in the first place) and hitting more in front while using the body more ie legs will help the shot.

You should relax the just like on the serve for the forehand when the racket drops and you pull the racket through using the elbow to wip and the wrist will finish up but not doing much, just like the serve you should use your legs to accelerate the racket and the hips to turn into the shot.


But honestly the guys shots look really good so what is all the fuss? IMO it does not matter what you know, with time you will become better as if you relax enough or setup soon enough you can't use any of that knowleged.

All these things I have found out not by reading but just practicing.

Bungalo Bill
05-24-2006, 03:05 PM
Really not sure why you take everything so personal:confused:

But anyways, no matter how you slice it the end of all movements is a by product of a proper full natural movement.

Wel in order to develop the end result, you have to learn proper technique along the way. For many this doesn't come natural. Hence tennis lessons?????

For instance, if you where so take a slow very short swing the elbow would not wrap and you should not foce it.

Also consider that the very begining of any movment will dictate what is capable at the end of them movement

Dude, we are not talking about the finish. We are talking about your lame advice about not considering the important role the elbow takes in the swing and why players need to discipline themselves in this area to execute it properly.

This prepares a player to hit consistently at a high level of play and for a long rally!!!!!!!!! What the heck are you talking about!! LOL

I even posted an article on it - READ THE DAMN THING!!!!!

If you do not have a proper full take back ect you aren't going to wrap anything

What is PROPER takeback? Short? Long? Inbetween? You see, your tips are very surface level. You are one of those moronic players that think "teaching" tennis is easy and that players "learning" tennis should never have any issues because we are all one happy world and we all just get it.

What a dumb way to think. If you have ever played sports (which sounds like you haven't) executing proper technique takes TIME to learn. It takes DISCIPLINE. Even in the sport of bodybuilding, technique is huge! Not only in how they pose, but also in how they perform their training!!!!!

I can push 50lbs with my legs like the other guy. Does it matter how I push the weight? What about the position of my back and stomach? Why is that important to execute properly at lower weights? I can lift it, so why can't I just do it anyway I want? Isn't that a dumb idea?

Hopefully you thought so, because that is how I took your idea. It was dumb.

You need to learn how to teach tennis first before opening your mouth and tripping over your tongue. Go study.

Roddick The Beast
05-24-2006, 05:14 PM
Wel in order to develop the end result, you have to learn proper technique along the way. For many this doesn't come natural. Hence tennis lessons?????



Dude, we are not talking about the finish. We are talking about your lame advice about not considering the important role the elbow takes in the swing and why players need to discipline themselves in this area to execute it properly.

This prepares a player to hit consistently at a high level of play and for a long rally!!!!!!!!! What the heck are you talking about!! LOL

I even posted an article on it - READ THE DAMN THING!!!!!



What is PROPER takeback? Short? Long? Inbetween? You see, your tips are very surface level. You are one of those moronic players that think "teaching" tennis is easy and that players "learning" tennis should never have any issues because we are all one happy world and we all just get it.

What a dumb way to think. If you have ever played sports (which sounds like you haven't) executing proper technique takes TIME to learn. It takes DISCIPLINE. Even in the sport of bodybuilding, technique is huge! Not only in how they pose, but also in how they perform their training!!!!!

I can push 50lbs with my legs like the other guy. Does it matter how I push the weight? What about the position of my back and stomach? Why is that important to execute properly at lower weights? I can lift it, so why can't I just do it anyway I want? Isn't that a dumb idea?

Hopefully you thought so, because that is how I took your idea. It was dumb.

You need to learn how to teach tennis first before opening your mouth and tripping over your tongue. Go study.Nevermind all of your replies to him, BB!!!! It doesn't matter! It's the racquet's setup -- the equipment that matters, right? :mrgreen:

jackson vile
05-24-2006, 07:34 PM
Wel in order to develop the end result, you have to learn proper technique along the way. For many this doesn't come natural. Hence tennis lessons?????



Dude, we are not talking about the finish. We are talking about your lame advice about not considering the important role the elbow takes in the swing and why players need to discipline themselves in this area to execute it properly.

This prepares a player to hit consistently at a high level of play and for a long rally!!!!!!!!! What the heck are you talking about!! LOL

I even posted an article on it - READ THE DAMN THING!!!!!



What is PROPER takeback? Short? Long? Inbetween? You see, your tips are very surface level. You are one of those moronic players that think "teaching" tennis is easy and that players "learning" tennis should never have any issues because we are all one happy world and we all just get it.

What a dumb way to think. If you have ever played sports (which sounds like you haven't) executing proper technique takes TIME to learn. It takes DISCIPLINE. Even in the sport of bodybuilding, technique is huge! Not only in how they pose, but also in how they perform their training!!!!!

I can push 50lbs with my legs like the other guy. Does it matter how I push the weight? What about the position of my back and stomach? Why is that important to execute properly at lower weights? I can lift it, so why can't I just do it anyway I want? Isn't that a dumb idea?

Hopefully you thought so, because that is how I took your idea. It was dumb.

You need to learn how to teach tennis first before opening your mouth and tripping over your tongue. Go study.


There you go flying off the handle agian:confused:

I hope you don't act that way with your kids:rolleyes:


I never ever at anypoint said that the elbow was not important.

What I did say was thta you should not attempt to force an end result, as you should never do.


This is how it is either your swing right or you don't, if you don't you want get this or that end result so debating it is moot at best.

Like I said in my first post fooly'o, he needs to spin more, spining more/properly is what put the elbow in that position.


I said it in my first post and I am right:mrgreen:


And futher more my coments abou the racket are correct, as with a soft racket ie a prestige this is not as much a problem as it is easier to step into the shot and take it more in front for the spin with a lower degree of error.


You have some serious issues with yourself and you need to get your act together buddy.

There is no reason in the world for you to act like that, it just makes you look bad.


And then you jump to conclusion making false ignorant satements, and try to take credit for an article.


If you are so good and so much better of a person than everyone here then where you at, what is your national ranking, what is the national ranking of the players you coach.


I can post links to varioius tennis sites all day also.

He asked for peoples input and this is his post not yours, me and other people are giving input and making observations and you freak out because you want to be some hero or something.


Point is I am right in my observations you are spliting hairs and getting your panties in a bunch thinking this is you website or something, but guess what buddy it isn't.

Bungalo Bill
05-24-2006, 07:39 PM
There you go flying off the handle agian:confused:

I gave you specific reasons why tennis is not so natural. I gave yo specific reasons to answer. This is how you reply?

I hope you don't act that way with your kids:rolleyes:

My kids are smarter than you. I only act this way to you.


I never ever at anypoint said that the elbow was not important.What I did say was thta you should not attempt to force an end result, as you should never do.

What? LOL who is forcing anything? teachign proper mechanics is forcing? Maybe a person does need to be "forced" into proper mechanics. Training specific body movements in tennis pal does not come natural all the time.

Point is I am right in my observations you are spliting hairs and getting your panties in a bunch thinking this is you website or something, but guess what buddy it isn't.

The point is you have no idea what you're talking about and you gave lousey advice. Stick to getting better at tennis.

shindemac
05-24-2006, 08:06 PM
Thanks for your reply JCo872. Back to the OP and his video, midway through it on the 6th shot, that would be considered a modern forehand cause his elbow and racket butt point toward the net, right? All his other forehands use the classic forehand, and his follow-through seems forced. This slows down his swing, and reduces the power on his shots. So am I correct in saying a classic forehand gives you less power, and has a more unnatural follow-through?

Bungalo Bill
05-24-2006, 08:13 PM
that would be considered a modern forehand cause his elbow and racket butt point toward the net, right?

So this is what determines a "modern forehand".

http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/jpg/modern5.jpg

Butt is at the ball baby. 1926?

Roddick The Beast
05-24-2006, 08:28 PM
So this is what determines a "modern forehand".

http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/jpg/modern5.jpg

Butt is at the ball baby. 1926?Now I am really confused. I never knew that Tilden had a modern stroke! MAybe it's a cycle, like how bell-bottoms were once old, but now they're not so out-of-style? :confused:

Roddick The Beast
05-24-2006, 08:31 PM
Thanks for your reply JCo872. Back to the OP and his video, midway through it on the 6th shot, that would be considered a modern forehand cause his elbow and racket butt point toward the net, right? All his other forehands use the classic forehand, and his follow-through seems forced. This slows down his swing, and reduces the power on his shots. So am I correct in saying a classic forehand gives you less power, and has a more unnatural follow-through?For classic FHs, weight is transfered from back leg to front ("usually" with a square stance).

For modern FHs, more "rotation" is utilized. :D So there you have it, Mr The-one-who-I-was-mistaken-for-being-someone-else. :mrgreen:

travlerajm
05-24-2006, 08:33 PM
What happens before contact matters more than what happens afterward.

Think about this statement before you jump to argue. :)

Roddick The Beast
05-24-2006, 08:37 PM
What happens before contact matters more than what happens afterward.

Think about this statement before you jump to argue. :)Who is this directed towards, JackO or BungalO? :)

travlerajm
05-24-2006, 08:46 PM
Who is this directed towards, JackO or BungalO? :)

It seems there are plenty of fish who'd be apt to take the bait if I didn't include the "be-careful-not-to-make-yourself-look-foolish" warning this time.