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JCo872
05-26-2006, 08:14 AM
On TennisOne, Oscar Wegner just put out an article on the forehand. I know Oscar Wegner is a hotbed of controversy around here, so let me state up front that I like his idea of "finding the ball". I like his idea of "accelerating on contact". I even like his idea of a more delayed backswing.

However, I am completely puzzled by what he says in the article. He says that the pros "pull across their body" on contact. He says "pulling the arm in [on contact] is a lot more powerful. You need to pull in for several reasons..." One being that the bicep and chest muscles contract when you pull in towards you and as an example shows a guy pulling something in towards his body. He says if you twirl a rock on a string, if you pull inward, the rock accelerates. And then he finally says that pulling across the ball actually keeps the ball on the strings longer.

I find this to be incomprehensible. From every pro stroke I've ever seen, you see the racket continue to face the ball and net after contact for several inches (sometimes a lot more on a flat drive). In fact I'd argue the exact opposite of what Oscar says. Lesser players pull off the ball quickly to the left, giving them very little contact with the strings, whereas the pros keep behind the ball for much longer, getting maximum compression and spring from the racket going forward.

He also argues that Federer "pulls right across the body, he is not trying to go with the ball", but check out my video of Federer here: http://www.hi-techtennis.com/

He goes straight up the back of the ball and goes forward towards the net for a few inches. The racket actually draws a rainbow like motion on the right side of his body, which is completely different than quickly pulling off to the left. In effect he stays right behind the ball for awhile, giving him clean contact and a good linear movement and lift through the ball, which are the real sources of power.

If anyone can tell me what I'm missing about Oscar's argument I would appreciate it because I am just stunned by this idea of pulling off the ball on contact.

35ft6
05-26-2006, 08:25 AM
You should probably link the article.

And the tricep is the biggest, strongest muscle on your arm.

TennisParent
05-26-2006, 08:36 AM
On TennisOne, Oscar Wegner just put out an article on the forehand. I know Oscar Wegner is a hotbed of controversy around here, so let me state up front that I like his idea of "finding the ball". I like his idea of "accelerating on contact". I even like his idea of a more delayed backswing.

However, I am completely puzzled by what he says in the article. He says that the pros "pull across their body" on contact because the bicep and chest muscles are the strong muscles we have and that if you pull something in towards you it is stronger and more effective. He says if you twirl a rock on a string, if you pull inward, the rock accelerates. And then he says that pulling across the ball actually keeps the ball on the strings longer.

I find this to be incomprehensible. From every pro stroke I've ever seen, you see the racket continue to face the ball and net after contact for several inches (sometimes a lot more on a flat drive). In fact I'd argue the exact opposite of what Oscar says. Lesser players pull off the ball quickly to the left, giving them very little contact with the strings, whereas the pros keep behind the ball for much longer, getting maximum compression and spring from the racket going forward.

He also argues this is the key to Federer, but check out my video of Federer here: http://www.hi-techtennis.com/

He goes straight up the back of the ball and goes forward towards the net for a few inches. The racket actually draws a rainbow like motion on the right side of his body, which is completely different than quickly pulling off to the left. In effect he stays right behind the ball for awhile, giving him clean contact and a good linear movement and lift through the ball, which are the real sources of power.

If anyone can tell me what I'm missing about Oscar's argument I would appreciate it because I am just stunned by this idea of pulling off the ball on contact.
Good post JCO872, I totally agree. On TennisW.com another online tennis board OW hosts a forum called "Modern Tennis Methodology/The Wegner Method." I suggest you sign and bring your astute observation to his attention.

JCo872
05-26-2006, 08:39 AM
I'll do that. Thanks. I hate to go after a guy or attack his ideas. Especially one I learned some things from. I know Oscar came up with his ideas before good video came out, so I understand why he could have missed the linear movement through the ball. It's just that this idea of pulling across the ball is so bad that it actually ruins the good insights he has into the game.

I'll check out that forum and start a debate there.

sureshs
05-26-2006, 09:53 AM
So he is saying the classical "hits 4 balls in a row" advice is not correct?

Bungalo Bill
05-26-2006, 09:56 AM
On TennisOne, Oscar Wegner just put out an article on the forehand. I know Oscar Wegner is a hotbed of controversy around here, so let me state up front that I like his idea of "finding the ball". I like his idea of "accelerating on contact". I even like his idea of a more delayed backswing.

Oscar's stuff is good for those that subscribe to it, it is the "Father stuff" and his other remarks that are contested. The guy is a very intelligent man.

However, I am completely puzzled by what he says in the article. He says that the pros "pull across their body" on contact. He says "pulling the arm in [on contact] is a lot more powerful. You need to pull in for several reasons..." One being that the bicep and chest muscles contract when you pull in towards you and as an example shows a guy pulling something in towards his body. He says if you twirl a rock on a string, if you pull inward, the rock accelerates. And then he finally says that pulling across the ball actually keeps the ball on the strings longer.

Pulling huh? Sounds like some of Nick's stuff. :)

I find this to be incomprehensible. From every pro stroke I've ever seen, you see the racket continue to face the ball and net after contact for several inches (sometimes a lot more on a flat drive). In fact I'd argue the exact opposite of what Oscar says. Lesser players pull off the ball quickly to the left, giving them very little contact with the strings, whereas the pros keep behind the ball for much longer, getting maximum compression and spring from the racket going forward.

Look at the slow motion video of Federer. Believe that. Remember, Oscar also doesn't believe pros prepare their racquet before the bounce. :)

JCo872
05-26-2006, 10:05 AM
So he is saying the classical "hits 4 balls in a row" advice is not correct?

You got it. He says that strength and speed come from pulling straight off the the ball. He specifically says that "following the ball" is what NOT to do. He says by hitting 0 balls in a row is what makes Federer's forehand great.

JCo872
05-26-2006, 10:07 AM
Oscar's stuff is good for those that subscribe to it, it is the "Father stuff" and his other remarks that are contested. The guy is a very intelligent man.



Pulling huh? Sounds like some of Nick's stuff. :)




Look at the slow motion video of Federer. Believe that. Remember, Oscar also doesn't believe pros prepare their racquet before the bounce. :)


Well Nick says pull to the ball on the approach to the ball, whereas Oscar says to pull to the left on contacting the ball.

Bungalo Bill
05-26-2006, 10:19 AM
Well Nick says pull to the ball on the approach to the ball, whereas Oscar says to pull to the left on contacting the ball.

I guess pulling is the key word. Now I guess it boils down to what works for the player. Nick has produced some outstanding players. ;)

Brettolius
05-26-2006, 10:37 AM
So BB, see that you've switched from the volkl tour10 to the babolat? How's that working for ya? Quite a difference in feel, from the softest feeling frame to the frame that felt like plywood (to me). You liking the bab?

Bungalo Bill
05-26-2006, 10:42 AM
So BB, see that you've switched from the volkl tour10 to the babolat? How's that working for ya? Quite a difference in feel, from the softest feeling frame to the frame that felt like plywood (to me). You liking the bab?

It is not working out too well. What I dont like about my Volkl (only complaint) is the way the handle is built. I like a solid handle and not the palette type which is used on my Volkl's.

That Volkl Tour 10 is like an extension of my arm, I can hit the crap out of the ball and it goes where I want it to go. I can volley real well with the racquet as well.

The Babolot is a good racquet but I think it is for someone with a tad less swing speed then I like to hit the ball with.

We will see, but so far I am leaning to sell them if it doesnt turn around. On the other hand, it could be simply I am out of shape and am not playing a whole lot anymore. My tennis game takes a drastic switch when I am light on my feet and practiced. It is like night and day. So who knows.

Why? You want them? :)

just out
05-26-2006, 11:01 AM
I guess pulling is the key word. Now I guess it boils down to what works for the player. Nick has produced some outstanding players. ;)

I personally like Oscar's stuff, Nick also. I don't see a contradiction - 4 balls, 2 1/2 balls, 0 balls, 4 balls is just a way of trying to get someone to think of hitting through the ball and not to lift straight up or close the face on contact. I wouldn't describe a forehand by telling someone to push the ball. I have always thought of the forehand motion more as pulling especially from an open stance.

Bungalo Bill
05-26-2006, 11:26 AM
yada yada yada

Bungalo Bill
05-26-2006, 11:27 AM
I personally like Oscar's stuff, Nick also. I don't see a contradiction - 4 balls, 2 1/2 balls, 0 balls, 4 balls is just a way of trying to get someone to think of hitting through the ball and not to lift straight up or close the face on contact. I wouldn't describe a forehand by telling someone to push the ball. I have always thought of the forehand motion more as pulling especially from an open stance.

Well there are two important areas in the forehand motion, the pull forward and when the racquet goes to the other side, the shoulder still needs to be involved to help move the racquet forward. The pulling does not take place at the elbow which many end up doing. It comes from the shoulder to initiate the elbow to move forward. Rotation starts nearly immediately.

In order to feel both sides, I hold the racquet from behind so the player can feel the pull from the shoulder and then at contact to feel the shoulders involvement I will push against the racquet.

No one here is telling anyone to push the ball and the pulling term has been around a long long time.

JCo872
05-26-2006, 12:23 PM
Well there are two important areas in the forehand motion, the pull forward and when the racquet goes to the other side, the shoulder still needs to be involved to help move the racquet forward. The pulling does not take place at the elbow which many end up doing. It comes from the shoulder to initiate the elbow to move forward. Rotation starts nearly immediately.

In order to feel both sides, I hold the racquet from behind so the player can feel the pull from the shoulder and then at contact to feel the shoulders involvement I will push against the racquet.

No one here is telling anyone to push the ball and the pulling term has been around a long long time.

Exactly. I agree with the pulling to the ball feeling. No problems there. It's that he says the moment the racket touches the ball you need to swing the entire racket and arm immediately to the left. That somehow a motion to the left rather than forward through the ball is the key to pro strokes.

Brettolius
05-26-2006, 12:23 PM
It is not working out too well. What I dont like about my Volkl (only complaint) is the way the handle is built. I like a solid handle and not the palette type which is used on my Volkl's.

That Volkl Tour 10 is like an extension of my arm, I can hit the crap out of the ball and it goes where I want it to go. I can volley real well with the racquet as well.

The Babolot is a good racquet but I think it is for someone with a tad less swing speed then I like to hit the ball with.

We will see, but so far I am leaning to sell them if it doesnt turn around. On the other hand, it could be simply I am out of shape and am not playing a whole lot anymore. My tennis game takes a drastic switch when I am light on my feet and practiced. It is like night and day. So who knows.

Why? You want them? :)

No way. I have found my holy grail and it is the tour 10 mp. Simply love it. Just like you said, I can rip it and put right where I want, and know my ball is heavy as hell. I just asked because I hit with a buddy's pure control and pure drive, and I just couldn't really feel the ball, didn't like it much at all. Seemed like a quite dramatic switch between the 2 is why I asked. But I doubt you'll have trouble getting rid of the babs, people seem to love them for some reason.

JCo872
05-26-2006, 12:24 PM
Well there are two important areas in the forehand motion, the pull forward and when the racquet goes to the other side, the shoulder still needs to be involved to help move the racquet forward. The pulling does not take place at the elbow which many end up doing. It comes from the shoulder to initiate the elbow to move forward. Rotation starts nearly immediately.

In order to feel both sides, I hold the racquet from behind so the player can feel the pull from the shoulder and then at contact to feel the shoulders involvement I will push against the racquet.

No one here is telling anyone to push the ball and the pulling term has been around a long long time.

Exactly. I agree with the pulling to the ball feeling. No problems there. What I have a problem with is that he says the moment the racket touches the ball you need to swing the entire racket and arm immediately to the left. That somehow a motion to the left rather than forward through the ball is the key to pro strokes.

JCo872
05-26-2006, 12:24 PM
Well there are two important areas in the forehand motion, the pull forward and when the racquet goes to the other side, the shoulder still needs to be involved to help move the racquet forward. The pulling does not take place at the elbow which many end up doing. It comes from the shoulder to initiate the elbow to move forward. Rotation starts nearly immediately.

In order to feel both sides, I hold the racquet from behind so the player can feel the pull from the shoulder and then at contact to feel the shoulders involvement I will push against the racquet.

No one here is telling anyone to push the ball and the pulling term has been around a long long time.

Exactly. I agree with the pulling to the ball feeling. No problems there. What I have a problem with is that he says the moment the racket touches the ball you need to swing the entire racket and arm immediately to the left. That somehow a motion to the left rather than forward through the ball is the key to pro strokes.

JCo872
05-26-2006, 12:24 PM
Well there are two important areas in the forehand motion, the pull forward and when the racquet goes to the other side, the shoulder still needs to be involved to help move the racquet forward. The pulling does not take place at the elbow which many end up doing. It comes from the shoulder to initiate the elbow to move forward. Rotation starts nearly immediately.

In order to feel both sides, I hold the racquet from behind so the player can feel the pull from the shoulder and then at contact to feel the shoulders involvement I will push against the racquet.

No one here is telling anyone to push the ball and the pulling term has been around a long long time.

Exactly. I agree with the pulling to the ball feeling. No problems there. What I have a problem with is that he says the moment the racket touches the ball you need to swing the entire racket and arm immediately to the left. That somehow a motion to the left rather than forward through the ball is the key to pro strokes.

If you are a member of TennisOne you can see the article here:
http://www.tennisone.com/club/lessons/wegner/fh/weg_fh.php

Orson Welles
05-26-2006, 12:42 PM
...Nick has produced some outstanding players. ;)

C'mon BB, I thought that you of all people would know better than to say this. The people in the tennis business who really know what's going on know that Nick didn't "produce" anyone. He gives scholarships to great junior players like Andre Agassi, Monica Seles and Jim Courrier who are already tops in the world. The unspoken deal is that they get great competition and a great facility so that he can later take credit for them in return for offering the facility and the competition. Usually, he gives this deal to dozens of players and only a small percentage make it which he and IMG take credit for.

Nick is the pioneer of the academy business, a good motivator and he works hard, but I'd like you to name one player that you think that he truly "developed" or "produced". I'm not talking about him motivating some player who is already a great player; I am talking about actually taking a player who hasn't done much and making them great.

When I was a kid I went to his academy and I was shocked that the emperor has no clothes.

JCo872
05-26-2006, 01:10 PM
C'mon BB, I thought that you of all people would know better than to say this. The people in the tennis business who really know what's going on know that Nick didn't "produce" anyone. He gives scholarships to great junior players like Andre Agassi, Monica Seles and Jim Courrier who are already tops in the world. The unspoken deal is that they get great competition and a great facility so that he can later take credit for them in return for offering the facility and the competition. Usually, he gives this deal to dozens of players and only a small percentage make it which he and IMG take credit for.

Nick is the pioneer of the academy business, a good motivator and he works hard, but I'd like you to name one player that you think that he truly "developed" or "produced". I'm not talking about him motivating some player who is already a great player; I am talking about actually taking a player who hasn't done much and making them great.

When I was a kid I went to his academy and I was shocked that the emperor has no clothes.

Wow that's interesting you went to the academy. I like his videos a lot, but I get your point. I know that Malisse and Agassi had their games before going to the Bollitieri academy. I think Nick actually took those players and studied them to produce his videos.

Anyway, I'd love to hear more about the academy and what kind of stroke training you got. Sounds like it wasn't all its cracked up to be. And of course you are right. I haven't seen a player he has "produced" make it to the tour. I still like his videos a lot though. Maybe a kid would be better of just getting the videos and skipping the whole academy thing :)

Orson Welles
05-26-2006, 01:39 PM
...I still like his videos a lot though. Maybe a kid would be better of just getting the videos and skipping the whole academy thing :)

You are correct about that. The reason that the videos are so good is that Nick didn't produce them, Pat Dougherty and that Australian guy named McCormick or something produced them for Nick and they give Nick a few lines to say in them. I'm willing to bet that Nick doesn't even understand the content of the vidoes. As you watch the videos try to find one instance where he actually says something substantive about stroke technique. Usually it's just neanderthal, juvenile, unsophisticated motivational nonsense like: "I want you to have the mentality to have a weapon" or "I want you to make 10 out of 10, not just 4 out of 10 shots."

If you read Mike Agassi's new books he makes clear that he always knew that Bollietieri "didn't know jack about tennis" but that he decided to send Andre there when Andre was 13 because Andre needed the competition and was starting to rebel against his father/coach who is the guy that actually "produced" Andre.

sureshs
05-26-2006, 01:41 PM
What I have a problem with is that he says the moment the racket touches the ball you need to swing the entire racket and arm immediately to the left.

Is that even possible? Won't inertia keep moving the racquet a little forward even if you don't want to?

sureshs
05-26-2006, 01:43 PM
Nick is the pioneer of the academy business, a good motivator and he works hard, but I'd like you to name one player that you think that he truly "developed" or "produced".

Didn't he take a risk on Maria and offer her a scholarship when she was little and a nobody?

Bungalo Bill
05-26-2006, 02:31 PM
C'mon BB, I thought that you of all people would know better than to say this. The people in the tennis business who really know what's going on know that Nick didn't "produce" anyone. He gives scholarships to great junior players like Andre Agassi, Monica Seles and Jim Courrier who are already tops in the world. The unspoken deal is that they get great competition and a great facility so that he can later take credit for them in return for offering the facility and the competition. Usually, he gives this deal to dozens of players and only a small percentage make it which he and IMG take credit for.

Okay sorry for not being explicit, should I say his academy has had "touches" or "influences" on great players. I should have given you the dates, times, and specific names of each coach that had anything to do with a star player. Maybe I should have given you what they ate and when they SH*T as well. Would that be enough for you to get it?

Bungalo Bill
05-26-2006, 02:32 PM
No way. I have found my holy grail and it is the tour 10 mp. Simply love it. Just like you said, I can rip it and put right where I want, and know my ball is heavy as hell. I just asked because I hit with a buddy's pure control and pure drive, and I just couldn't really feel the ball, didn't like it much at all. Seemed like a quite dramatic switch between the 2 is why I asked. But I doubt you'll have trouble getting rid of the babs, people seem to love them for some reason.

Lol, but mine aren't the MP's, they are the Mid's. :) Yeah, they should be pretty easy to dump.

Orson Welles
05-26-2006, 02:36 PM
Okay sorry for not being explicit, should I say his academy has had "touches" or "influences" on great players, is that enough for you to get it?

Yes. That's better. I can buy that. Basically, the academy facilitated their development.

Bungalo Bill
05-26-2006, 02:39 PM
Yes. That's better. I can buy that. Basically, the academy facilitated their development.

Of course because they had the means to do it. Nick isn't going to coach a facility like that by himself. So do you really think we meant he had to market, do the accounting, stay on the courts and coach all day, teach every player that comes through, run the high school, and everything? When people say "Nick" most people do not mean Nick literally.

Orson Welles
05-26-2006, 02:43 PM
Didn't he take a risk on Maria and offer her a scholarship when she was little and a nobody?

Yes and no. That still doesn't mean he "developed" her. Her coach was never Bolliettieri; it was her father and then Robert Lansdorp in California. Moreover, it has always been a CALCULATED risk by IMG (which is an organization of sports agents) to let dozens of promising junior players train at the academy so that IMG can make money on the 10% of them who make it as pros on endorsement deals. Also, Bollietieri can also claim credit that he developed them if they make it so that they make money on the "suckers" who aren't so promising but whose parents pay the full price.

Roddick The Beast
05-26-2006, 03:57 PM
Okay sorry for not being explicit, should I say his academy has had "touches" or "influences" on great players. I should have given you the dates, times, and specific names of each coach that had anything to do with a star player. Maybe I should have given you what they ate and when they SH*T as well. Would that be enough for you to get it?Haha, now that's funny. :)

JCo872
05-26-2006, 04:21 PM
Is that even possible? Won't inertia keep moving the racquet a little forward even if you don't want to?

You would think so! I mean I don't think it's physically possible either. And if it was, wouldn't the ball go straight to the left?? When I said it was a weird idea, I wasn't kidding.

BeachTennis
05-26-2006, 04:32 PM
To push is the way !

Compact Circular motion with the strings pushing to the target

I can hit great forehands and finish between my legs but it is where the racket was pointing at contact that counts!

The hands are majik!

Bungalo Bill
05-26-2006, 04:42 PM
wow, computer gone mad

tim3
05-26-2006, 09:53 PM
Wegner's approach is to provide simplified instructions to players. I think he considers some of the skills can be acquired naturally, so they should not be told and confused the players. As long as the players have a coach to tell them the finer details when something go wrong, his approach may be okay.
I have read the article. I think he was trying to say pulling the racket to the left is the major source of power in forehand. He was perhaps describing rotation of the arm on the shoulder, which I agree is a major source of power. What he did not mention is that the movement of the racket is also governed by other compensatory movements. Those movements do not provide much power, but are essential to maintain a linear racket path at contact.

JCo872
05-26-2006, 11:44 PM
I just found all this info on Oscar Wegner's own site. Here is the link: http://www.tennisteacher.com/FloridaTennis.htm

Here are some quotes:

"How should you apply this martial arts idea to your game? Simple and easy. Wrap the racquet across your body. When hitting the forehand, bend your arm, bringing your fist toward the opposite shoulder. Rather than hitting "five balls in a row," as taught in conventional tennis, imagine hitting the first one and avoiding the other four. Change your path across the body, not forward."

And this...

"The ball enters the racquet and slides across the strings before coming off the racquet. On groundstrokes, especially on topspin strokes, players direct the force up and across the body, rather than straight toward the intended target"

Slides across the strings? Direct the force across rather than straight ahead?

BeachTennis
05-27-2006, 05:56 PM
Well one must wonder what OW is thinking!

I watch the video and see this guy doing some weak drrop hit demo!

He almost trips on his own feet to hit that one ball.

Don't get my wrong I have seen OW teach and speak.

I get players to move the ball top edge to bottom edge of the frame

Seems to me OW was looking for a ball strkie from the head to the throat in a pulling fashion.

I will go cross face on high ball above my shoulder . This shot could be that so called wind shield wiper motion.

One must realy wonder whats up with that tip!

I say OW is paying Tennis One !

Thats not a Tip thats a Ad

Bungalo Bill
05-28-2006, 12:09 PM
Well one must wonder what OW is thinking!

I watch the video and see this guy doing some weak drrop hit demo!

He almost trips on his own feet to hit that one ball.

Don't get my wrong I have seen OW teach and speak.

I get players to move the ball top edge to bottom edge of the frame

Seems to me OW was looking for a ball strkie from the head to the throat in a pulling fashion.

I will go cross face on high ball above my shoulder . This shot could be that so called wind shield wiper motion.

One must realy wonder whats up with that tip!

I say OW is paying Tennis One !

Thats not a Tip thats a Ad

Hey Beach,

I dont think any of us (or at least I) have a problem with a coach developing his own method, marketing it, and having success with his students. If we think about it, all coaches do this to some extent.

I happen to be a mix of methods not discounting other coaches inputs or ideas unless it is either mythical, old, or is simply not my choice to use.

The biggest problem I have with Wegner is:

1. His exxageration on who he has had a REAL influence on in regards to professional players.

2. His denial of visual information regarding racquet preparation.

3. His exxaggeration of putting ALL coaches that do not subscribe to his methods as old, outdated, conventional, etc..

4. His claim as "inventing" the open stance in 1970 something.

5. His claim to being the "Father" of modern tennis.

He is none of the above. He has good information as any coach should have.

EASI also has excellent information and their own method and approach to tennis which Oscar can't hold a stick to. This is something I disagree with you on.

I have already proven the wrist release and so have other biomechanic experts and coaches both of us can't hold a stick to.

I dont want to do this, but the video you posted of Federer can be used to prove EASI's findings and support many of their claims. You really need to take a careful look at that.

As far as Oscar, I have no issue at all with him wanting to teach his methods, it is only the things above that are farfetched which when challenged point blank on, he squirms away.

JCo872
05-28-2006, 12:25 PM
My biggest problem with Wegner is that he says you should "sweep across the ball" rather than hit through it first.

I think his biggest problem is he clearly just won't look at video. If he did he would have to change some (not all but some) his ideas.

That being said I do like his idea of accelerating on contact. But unfortunately he says to accelerate in the wrong direction.

Bungalo Bill
05-28-2006, 12:28 PM
My biggest problem with Wegner is that he says you should "sweep across the ball" rather than hit through it first.

I think his biggest problem is he clearly just won't look at video. If he did he would have to change some (not all but some) his ideas.

That being said I do like his idea of accelerating on contact. But unfortunately he says to accelerate in the wrong direction.

Well Wegner only has to look at how long Federer's racquet stays in the contact zone line. He goes well through the ball before tailoring off.

But of course, you and I know that we can light up his eyes with all the film in the world to prove him wrong and he will still find a way to squirm out of admitting wrong.

Have you ever tried to get his followers to see how early pros take their racquet back? :rolleyes: It is an endless circle of denial.

JCo872
05-28-2006, 12:32 PM
Well Wegner only has to look at how long Federer's racquet stays in the contact zone line. He goes well through the ball before tailoring off.

But of course, you and I know that we can light up his eyes with all the film in the world to prove him wrong and he will still find a way to squirm out of admitting wrong.

Have you ever tried to get his followers to see how early pros take their racquet back? :rolleyes: It is an endless circle of denial.

So when is the Bungalo Bill Tennis Academy opening up? That would be cool man. All your players would be hitting through the ball with good wrist release and real backswings and knocking off those Wegner players with no backswing and no drive through the ball. I'd love to see that!

And btw many years I ago I tried that delayed backswing. It was a disaster. As soon as I went back to an early and proper preparation, it all came back. He's right that you don't just take your arm back and stop, but geez, that doesn't mean you get rid of preparation.

Bungalo Bill
05-28-2006, 01:02 PM
So when is the Bungalo Bill Tennis Academy opening up?

I have only a fleeting desire to do something like that. I look at tennis academies and wonder, who is really making money? Nick maybe? But he had to diversify into other offerings.

When I coached tennis on the court, I know way more then I ever have. I wish I knew what I know now, when I was younger. I guess age has its benefits.

That would be cool man. All your players would be hitting through the ball with good wrist release and real backswings and knocking off those Wegner players with no backswing and no drive through the ball. I'd love to see that!

I will teach privates and small groups on an on-call basis or as a part-time basis here in Boise. If a player really wants to get good, I will commit to them.

But I think the better coaches are still out there like TennisMastery, Yandell, Kann, etc...

And btw many years I ago I tried that delayed backswing. It was a disaster. As soon as I went back to an early and proper preparation, it all came back. He's right that you don't just take your arm back and stop, but geez, that doesn't mean you get rid of preparation.

He likes to make everyone think that coaches that dont subscribe to his style are making p-layers run around with these huge gate like backswings and leaving the racquet way back and running. He never mentions that the drill is often misused and simply launches his marketing campaign off of it.

Anyone in their right mind woud know that a person subscribing to his type of takeback would be more on the beginner level.

Oscar is a slipper fish! :)

tsungtak
05-28-2006, 09:06 PM
From reading these comments about Oscar You guys seem a little skeptical, I purchased these dvds about 2.5 years ago to help with my daughter, she plays junior tennis she has been coached and been thru the local junior development program and like many of her peers she had not developed into a better player, at this point I took over the coaching and dropped the junior develpment programs and followed the Oscar method within 3 months she went from never getting to a final at a local tournament to winning 9 tournaments over the next 12 months and then I made a mistake and gave her back to a local coach and the coach changed her strokes back to the traditional method (the close stance, follow thru to the front, bend your knees, hit everything in front and don't hit as hard) during that year she did not win another tournament. 2 months ago I've started coaching her again using the oscar method, her game has improved and she is winning again

goober
05-28-2006, 09:24 PM
From reading these comments about Oscar You guys seem a little skeptical, I purchased these dvds about 2.5 years ago to help with my daughter, she plays junior tennis she has been coached and been thru the local junior development program and like many of her peers she had not developed into a better player, at this point I took over the coaching and dropped the junior develpment programs and followed the Oscar method within 3 months she went from never getting to a final at a local tournament to winning 9 tournaments over the next 12 months and then I made a mistake and gave her back to a local coach and the coach changed her strokes back to the traditional method (the close stance, follow thru to the front, bend your knees, hit everything in front and don't hit as hard) during that year she did not win another tournament. 2 months ago I've started coaching her again using the oscar method, her game has improved and she is winning again

I didn't realize there were still any junior development programs that are teaching closed stance and old skool techniques.

tsungtak
05-28-2006, 09:48 PM
Its not so much the jd progam that teaches that but a lot of the coaches do teach old school, the Jd program seems to be more of a drills based program. Goober which part of the country are you in

Bungalo Bill
05-28-2006, 11:18 PM
I didn't realize there were still any junior development programs that are teaching closed stance and old skool techniques.

In the pros there is a mixture of stances used: closed, neutral, semi-open and open. I have still yet to have a definite meaning on what "old school" really is.

Open stance has been around and used for years. Even in 1926. Pointing the butt cap at the ball has been around for years. Oscar does not have an invention here. He along with many other coaches teach the open stance. This is a false assumption.

tsungtak
05-29-2006, 05:54 AM
Bungalo Bill

Oscar says thru out his video that what he teaches is not new its just not what the coaches are teaching in usa, for those of us who loved tennis as a child and as an adult we are tired of being bad at it and paying money to stay bad

artworks
05-29-2006, 05:57 AM
Oscar has simplified tennis.

Bungalow who? :mrgreen:

Tell us about yourself and invite us to your website instead.

TennisParent
05-29-2006, 07:07 AM
Oscar has simplified tennis.

Bungalow who? :mrgreen:

Tell us about yourself and invite us to your website instead.

Any quack can open open up a website, geez.
Well, if you would buy into OW's claims, you would think he invented the sport, not just simplified tennis. I don't think BB has ever claimed Wegner's method has absolutely no merit, just challenged the misrepresentations OW makes about mainstream tennis instruction and how he takes credit for the work of others. He has the balls to challenge Oscar directly on his moderated forum. Wegner has not been able to answer BB...

TennisParent
05-29-2006, 07:15 AM
Bungalo Bill

Oscar says thru out his video that what he teaches is not new its just not what the coaches are teaching in usa, for those of us who loved tennis as a child and as an adult we are tired of being bad at it and paying money to stay bad
What Oscar says is being taught in the US is just not the case. I'm sure you have seen his so called "MIT Study" where he shows a pathetic flat forehand stroke to contrast with the glorious Wegner invented forehand. I have asked Oscar more than once on his forum who teaches that kind of the forehand-Bolletieri, Macci, Hobden? I don't think so. If I am not mistaken these guys all teach here in the good ol' USA. Nobody competent teaches that abomination. Still no answer from the "Father of Modern Tennis." He just ducks that question because he knows he is wrong...

tsungtak
05-29-2006, 07:39 AM
Wow this oscar method of teaching rubs some of you the wrong way I just know what has worked for my daughter, she is by no stretch the next Kim Clister but she is good and now enjoys it. By the way most of us do not work with any of these camps (Bolletieri, Macci, Hobden) we play tennis at the local club or the city courts where their is a pro teaching

Bungalo Bill
05-29-2006, 10:02 AM
Bungalo Bill

Oscar says thru out his video that what he teaches is not new its just not what the coaches are teaching in usa, for those of us who loved tennis as a child and as an adult we are tired of being bad at it and paying money to stay bad

LOL, being bad to stay bad? Maybe you are just bad at tennis? Ever think of that? LOL

Every coach brings in their own style, preferences, successes, and failures. If a student is not connecting with a coach, by all means, check out Oscar's approach. That is not the issue I have with Oscar. I am attacking his claims. He has yet to answer.

Here is a post at Oscar's forum. This was posted by TLM who frequents here on occasion. What TLM says in this is completely twisted. No one has said Oscars' methods are ALL wrong. We have said that a professional player DOES indeed prepare the backswing well before th bounce and can prove that on film. I have also gone on record and indicated that I have NO PROBLEMS with his method except for his claims and the fact that he denies evidence placed right in front of him.

Here is TLM's post. This is typical of Oscar followers not really getting it:

"Oscar i purchaced your book+videos 3 years ago+me+my wife learned a lot+really improved our games with your instruction.

I get on TW discussion board often+when i would brag up your methods + defend your instruction,there would be a lot of opposition.They would say that you were teaching all wrong+i was a fool for listening to you."

Now, look at this. The comment "are we being foolish for listening to you". This reminds of a cult follower doubting the divinity of his Guru and god. If you really believe in a method, a smart person would realize that it is a MAN-MADE method complete with flaws and tips that may or may not work with everyone. All coaches have this inherent trait. It is why a good coach will use SEVERAL methods to help a student learn the game of tennis.

But for a Wegner follower to get on their knees in prayer, to seek wisdom from their Guru, is a bit odd don't you think?

The other thing is the personal touch of "I DEFEND YOUR INSTRUCTION" and "YOU WERE TEACHING ALL WRONG". Can you believe this? Who has said that Oscar is teaching ALL WRONG?

Let me help you guys out a bit. A long time ago a bet was made between Arthur Ashe and Vic Braden. Vic was studying the pronation of the arm in different types of serve (twist, slice, etc.). Arthur insisted that the arm supinated on the slice serve and that he did it ALL the time. He refused to accept Vic's film analysis and made the bet. Guess what, Arthur lost.

The difference between Arhtur and Oscar is, Arthur saw the evidence, apoligized to Vic, and changed the way he was teaching the serve.

DO YOU REALLY THINK OSCAR HAS DONE THAT? EVEN WITH PROOF THAT PROS PREPARE BEFORE THE BOUNCE?????? Or is he now changing his tune with no apoligy?

Bungalo Bill
05-29-2006, 10:09 AM
Oscar has simplified tennis.

Bungalow who? :mrgreen:

Tell us about yourself and invite us to your website instead.

LOL, there coming out of the woodwork! All the Oscar 2.5 folks are jumping. How has Oscar simplified tennis?

- When did he invent the open stance?

- Why dont pros prepare before the bounce?

- Who started teaching the laid back wrist?

- Who started teaching the wrist release?

- What player came on the scene to populaize the wrist release? did Oscar have anything to do with that player?

- What coach emphasized lengthening the swing

- What coach invented or at least imlfuenced the reverse forehand?

- Was Pete Sampras influenced by Oscar?

- Was Agassi influenced by Oscar

- Is Leyton Hewitt influenced by Oscar

- Was Guga's technique influenced by Oscar and when?

- What specific players technique, playing ability, and talent was coached and unmistakenably influenced by Oscar?

- When was the twohanded backhand used in tennis? Where was Oscar?

- What about Rodger "classic style" Federer? When did Oscar take him under his wings and educate him to the world of tennis???

- Who popularized the twohanded backhand, was Oscar behind the scenes building this genious?

Oscar really hasn't done anything except create his own method in teaching tennis. I have already said I dont have a problem with that at all. But to make the other claims? LOL, you got to laugh.

I even posted on Oscars website, and guess what? He hasn't answered. Except of course to foggy the whole issue up with his Scientology crap.

Bungalo Bill
05-29-2006, 11:20 AM
Here you go, let's debate this!

Get your guns ready...this was written by our Dear Father of Modern Tennis. This is him personally saying this and since I just discovered this, I can't wait to respond.

================================================== ========

Oscar04-27-2006, 10:51 AM
Dear Mike, here is one of the tips (a very controversial one) that I wrote in regard to a very basic common error. I'll be happy to expand to other areas as well.

Preparing early: just a myth commentators help perpetuate !

Most conventional tennis teachers, including coaches at a very high level, not realizing its negative effect, counsel their students to take the racquet back early.

But look both at Roger Federer and Andre Agassi, the two best strokers in the game. Roger and Andre keep following the ball with the racquet (or hand) for quite a long time, without taking it back early. Even while running, they keep the racquet in front their body. Even James Blake is finally doing the same thing, tracking the ball longer and waiting for the last moment to strike. Hopefully he is aware of this and will have continued success.

If you really look, you'll see there is much more time than you think between the bounce and the hit. (Addition: Mary Carrillo's comment that Federer seemed to always have a lot of time was very apropriate. My answer would be: he takes his time.)

================================================== ========

If there is so much time, then why are a lot of players late? Why would we even have an issue whether they prepare earlier or simply wait a little bit more? If it is that simple, everyone would be able to hit on time, right? Wrong!

The first thing that needs to be clarified is what constitutes the takeback, racquet preparation, etc.. with coaches that do not subscribe to Oscar's methods and those that do.

What you are going to find is Oscar (in his clever way) took a drill that emphasizes and exxaggerates the shoulder rotation and the racquet back and demonized it making innocent followers believe that ALL other coaches make their students play the game with their racquet all the way back. THIS IS THE UNITED STATES method of teaching. Funny thing is, I don't do this. Yandell doesn't do this. Braden did it but only to emphasize a shoulder preparation problem but he never (during my time with him) said for players to run with their racquets back. So what is Oscar getting at? Is he portraying the truth about things or just tainting it with his own flavor to get people to believe him? Why is he so har to pin down with this issue when he is challenged with film and other coaches that are seeing something else?

Bungalo Bill
05-29-2006, 11:35 AM
Coaches and players of all levels tell their success with the Wegner Method!

Ahhhh, sand face has been drawn in...perfect...:)

But I want to understand Oscar's success. I want to know what he really is the Father of. Show me quotes that are not written by him! Tell me those. Name the players that had a direct influence from Oscar. When was he in the stands during a match coaching those players.

No one is arguing whether his method is good for some players. All methods can benefit players and all methods have things we can learn from.

EASI for example, is a method that you bad mouthed, yet, I find a lot of the information in the website verifiable.

You are a lot like Oscar, when presented with clear information that contradicts your position, you dance around it! lol

"Oscar is a great coach.

No doubt Oscar is a great player and a good coach! But his claims are not warranted. He throws all coaches that do not suscribe to his teachings in the same boat, yet there are a lot of excellent coaches that dont teach his methods.

Can you answer that?

"Wegner strips instruction of all those accepted phrases and directions that only clutter your mind and confuse.....I think you'll find it worthwhile to dump the past and join Oscar in your tennis future. In listening to him I've unlearned a few things myself that I long considered gospel....." Bud Collins, Boston Globe, NBC

I just took three kids out to the court. I dont teach Oscars methods and have developed my own method based on other coaches findings.

Within one hour, they knew the SW grip, new the semi-open stance, and were hitting the ball lifting it with topspin. So I dont know what I am talking about? Teaching on the court is frickin' EASY!

One of these days, you will stop the stupidity and answer questions. But as it is, I dont think you know how to. I really think you know what to do, but dont really know how to think through your answers. Can you write and give us just your answers to these questions to debate?

Is it true that ALL coaches in the United States teach a player to run with their racquet back? Is it true that professional players do not prepare their swing BEFORE the bounce.

What is happening here is the definitions are there regarding what is racquet preparation and 99% of the coaches agree on this. It is the EXACT same thing we agree with Oscar on. But Oscar wants to contiunue to paint it a different picture. What is your picture? Dont quote, use your own words.

tsungtak
05-29-2006, 03:48 PM
I do not have enough time in the day to sit and read your long winded posts about how we are all stupid consumers for buying into a method that you feel is not adequate. Let us evaluate YOUR life for a second, since you take such great pride in calling the other posters names like "sand-face," or "dumbo", and calling me and I am sure several other unworthy posters a "liar." Well, why don't you tell the whole thread why you are not at your USPTA job. Was it because they stressed the Oscar method, so you dropped everything and quit? Or was it because they required their pros to be nice? You put former USPTA member on the bottom of everything to make you sound so....professional. "Teaching on the court is frickin' EASY!" If that is right, why aren't you doing it anymore? For all we know you are making it up. You are just another internet geek that wishes he could post on SomethingAwful.com but you won't because your limited income from your mom does not allow the funds to post on their boards. You claim to be a guru at tennis. At least Oscar has worshipers. You have no one. No one wants to know your opinions, and you have to resort to posting your words on a TENNIS DISCUSSION BOARD.
I came on this board to find others TEACHING (NOT INSULTING) the Oscar method because it helped my daughter. Why can't you just let go the fact that people have different opinions from yours? I didn't join to be humiliated and bashed. I am sorry you have too much time on your hands--that is what happens when you live in your mom's basement.

Bungalo Bill
05-29-2006, 03:58 PM
I do not have enough time in the day to sit and read your long winded posts about how we are all stupid consumers for buying into a method that you feel is not adequate. .

Well I dont think you are buying a bad product. It is the other stuff around it that is misleading.

Again, champ, I have said over and over again that the method is not wrong, bad, erroneous, etc... etcc...got it?

What I did say is the information about how pros wait for the bounce to prepare is stupid!!!!! It is not true! When any one confronts the "Father" on this, he avoids answering it even with proof! Beach Tennis operates the same way! Even with solid evidence that Federer clear has a released wrist in his shot, he still denies it!

Look at the film. Take whatever works from Oscar and use it! But dont tell us that pros prepare during or after the bounce!

Here is the film!

http://www.uspta.com/html/e-lesson-Backhand%20back%20view.swf

Did he prepare during or after the ball bounce? The answer is NO!!!!!!!!!

BeachTennis
05-29-2006, 06:14 PM
Well I dont think you are buying a bad product. It is the other stuff around it that is misleading.

Again, champ, I have said over and over again that the method is not wrong, bad, erroneous, etc... etcc...got it?

What I did say is the information about how pros wait for the bounce to prepare is stupid!!!!! It is not true! When any one confronts the "Father" on this, he avoids answering it even with proof! Beach Tennis operates the same way! Even with solid evidence that Federer clear has a released wrist in his shot, he still denies it!

Look at the film. Take whatever works from Oscar and use it! But dont tell us that pros prepare during or after the bounce!

Here is the film!

http://www.uspta.com/html/e-lesson-Backhand%20back%20view.swf

Did he prepare during or after the ball bounce? The answer is NO!!!!!!!!!

Find that line and quote me !

Bungalo Bill
05-29-2006, 07:00 PM
Find that line and quote me !

No need to find the line, just read the whole thread! Isn't it true that is a player has flex in the wrist area that it will injure the wrist? ;)

tlm
05-29-2006, 07:14 PM
Come on bill i have heard you+ many others say that oscars teaching methods are wrong.There is no cult following here,i just stated the truth about my expereinces with conventional teaching+OW methods.

The thing that surprised me so much was that on a tennis site OW would be hated so much.Now i realize that OW does come on strong with his insults to other teaching methods.

That is not what i am interested in i am into results+by using his instruction i received them.I see a lot of people still using eastern grips+hitting flatter,the traditional way+ with good results.

So you can be succesful either way,i just know that traditional did not work for me.I tried both ways+there was no comparison in the 2,but that doesnt mean it is for everybody.

Bungalo Bill
05-29-2006, 07:28 PM
Come on bill i have heard you+ many others say that oscars teaching methods are wrong.There is no cult following here,i just stated the truth about my expereinces with conventional teaching+OW methods.

The thing that surprised me so much was that on a tennis site OW would be hated so much.Now i realize that OW does come on strong with his insults to other teaching methods.

That is not what i am interested in i am into results+by using his instruction i received them.I see a lot of people still using eastern grips+hitting flatter,the traditional way+ with good results.

So you can be succesful either way,i just know that traditional did not work for me.I tried both ways+there was no comparison in the 2,but that doesnt mean it is for everybody.

It is all in good fun. :)

TennisParent
05-29-2006, 07:45 PM
Wow this oscar method of teaching rubs some of you the wrong way I just know what has worked for my daughter, she is by no stretch the next Kim Clister but she is good and now enjoys it. By the way most of us do not work with any of these camps (Bolletieri, Macci, Hobden) we play tennis at the local club or the city courts where their is a pro teaching
I am glad that OW method works for your kid, as a parent myself I can certainly sympathze. In my case OW method, isn't what rubs me wrong, its just like all "methods" some good, some bad IMHO, it's all the bs he spews in order to sell the product that I admit gets on my nerves. I totally understand the second part of your post, my kids may never get to be pros, I just want them to play as well as they can and have fun-this weekend my 11 y/o won a sattelite level tournament with her "obsolete" flat strokes.:) Good luck with your girls.

tlm
05-29-2006, 08:29 PM
By the way BB i have learned a lot from your advice also.

tlm
05-29-2006, 08:36 PM
Hey tennisparent i dont think flat strokes are obsolete,most of the better older players i see use them.By the way they are some of the best players at the club i play at.

But in the pros it does seem to be obsolete.Most club players i see are into s+v with conventional strokes.In the pro game seems like western grips+baseline bashing has taken over.

TennisParent
05-29-2006, 09:34 PM
Hi tlm, of course, I really wasn't referring to you. I know you have made this observation before about the players in your area. BTW, I am being sarcastic when referring to using "obsolete" and "flat" I teach my kids to drive the ball with a moderate amt. of topspin, not exactly flat, just not w/ the loopy clay court type topspin I think folks end up with using OW method. I agree that baseline bashing has taken over the pro game, a development that is aided in large part by equipment and surfaces of today, not sure if that's such a good thing, but that is another debate huh. At the club level though, I think that different styles such as sv or even (ugh) pushing can be very effective for us normal human beings.

artworks
05-29-2006, 09:54 PM
Repeat:

BUNGALOW WHO?

Tell us your credentials FIRST so everyone would know "WHO'S TALKING".

artworks
05-29-2006, 09:57 PM
Any quack can open open up a website, geez.
Well, if you would buy into OW's claims, you would think he invented the sport, not just simplified tennis. I don't think BB has ever claimed Wegner's method has absolutely no merit, just challenged the misrepresentations OW makes about mainstream tennis instruction and how he takes credit for the work of others. He has the balls to challenge Oscar directly on his moderated forum. Wegner has not been able to answer BB...

Don't tell us that a QUACK is more reliable than BUNGALOW WHO? geez!

DoubleHanded&LovinIt
05-29-2006, 10:09 PM
artworks, your signature does a real service to those of us trying to figure out your viewpoint in this thread. You, for some reason, dislike/disagree with Bungalo Bill and are therefore jumping on the jump on Bill bandwagon with the likes of tlm, BeachTennis, and tsungtak. Thanks for being honest in your approach.

Most confusing, in all of this to me, is the position of BeachTennis. At one point, he's making fun of Oscar for nearly tripping over his feet, stating that pushing the racquet out to contact is the way to go, and then later lauds Oscar--a guy who, as JCo has explained, endorses pulling off the ball at the moment of contact. BeachTennis, your lack of a position, pardon me, is straight-up idiotic!

Bill, keep up the great work!

artworks
05-29-2006, 10:30 PM
artworks, your signature does a real service to those of us trying to figure out your viewpoint in this thread. You, for some reason, dislike/disagree with Bungalo Bill and are therefore jumping on the jump on Bill bandwagon with the likes of tlm, BeachTennis, and tsungtak. Thanks for being honest in your approach.

Thanks for your comments.

We know who's Oscar Wegner, but not the person(s) behind the alternicks in this portal. It wouldn't be fair when someone is contesting and ridiculing the teaching method of the gentleman while he doesn't introduce himself and tell us of his credentials.

DoubleHanded&LovinIt
05-29-2006, 10:35 PM
artworks, your welcome. But my comments weren't supposed to be taken as complimentary. I don't think piling on Bill is right--piling on is just wrong to begin with and also I happen to agree with Bill on almost every issue that comes up with tennis technique.

Bill's credentials? Read through his posts, he was a UPSTA professional, taught over at Vic Braden's place, and is a contributor at John Yandell's incredible site tennisplayer.net. Need more?

artworks
05-29-2006, 10:48 PM
artworks, your welcome. But my comments weren't supposed to be taken as complimentary. I don't think piling on Bill is right--piling on is just wrong to begin with and also I happen to agree with Bill on almost every issue that comes up with tennis technique.

Bill's credentials? Read through his posts, he was a UPSTA professional, taught over at Vic Braden's place, and is a contributor at John Yandell's incredible site tennisplayer.net. Need more?

Complimentary or not, I thank you for your comments my dear.

I was once a member of Tennisone.com. Have downloaded almost all the lessons on their website. I came accross Wegner's website and found the explanation comprehensive and easily understood.

Yes, I've been reading some of Bungalow Bill's post under Tennis Tips/Instruction and I try to figure out what are those that might be applicable to my tennis game. I just really don't find "discrediting another person" crap a good idea for Bill to follow, even going after Wegner's personal belief. In short, getting "too personal".

I'm receiving emails from Jonh Yandell's website as well. Vic Braden, John Yandell, Oscar Wegner, Bill who?

artworks
05-29-2006, 11:15 PM
DoubleHanded&LovinIt, although its nice of you to talk for Bill. However we would appreciate if you let Bill Bungalow speak for himself.

Bungalo Bill
05-29-2006, 11:29 PM
Repeat:

BUNGALOW WHO?

Tell us your credentials FIRST so everyone would know "WHO'S TALKING".

Well I already have! Search and find! What do you want to hear? That I have been in the stands coaching famous tennis players? Not me. I am just a tennis coach who studies tennis technique. Nothing more and nothing less.

If that is not enough for you, no worries listen to other people. I don't think John or Vic would be involved with someone if they didnt know what they are talking about.

If I did coach top pros, I wouldnt be here offering free advice now would I? Take advantage of it, if you don't understand things, find someone that you can understand. I don't have a problem with that at all.

Here is my "credentials" if that is what you want to call it.

I played tennis for San Diego State a long time ago. I played tennis for a long time in sunny Southern California. Although I quit tennis (because of burnout), I still studied tennis from a technical perspective. I do not spend time learning racquet technology, string technology, court technology, or anything else but things that relate to technique, instruction, coaching, and physical fitness. That is it.

My educational background is in human learning theory (how people learn), sports performance, and performance improvement technology (getting someone or something to do it better). I have a degree in business.

Prior to being in two car accidents, I was an avid fitness nut, and use that knowledge in the sport of tennis today.

I know what it is like learning tennis on your own and with a good coach. I also know what it feels like learning from not-so good coaches. I have an excellent talent in analysis and am able to take complex information and simplify it. I can get as technical as they come or as basic as they come.

I have taught at Vic Bradens Tennis College but don't subscribe to all of Vic's teaching. It was a job and I often felt Vic was a bit too light on things. I think Vic is a great guy and has some great research that still stands, but I also have discarded a lot as invalid or simply viewed it as being a bit wierd.

I am a hodge podge of instructional technique, I don't ever say "this guy knows it all." I take the good from coaches and discard the stuff that is iffy or not so verifiable.

John Yandell and I are friends. He knows his stuff and I will yield to those that I feel know what they are talking about. TennisMastery is also now my friend and we as of today had a good conversation on tennis. He is also going to help me learn more about his insights on the twohanded forehand.

My main claim to fame is my ability to see things, communicate things, and mix in how the brain learns and transforms physical movement into a result. Am I an expert in it? Nope, I am still learning. I still read biomechanic articles from experts in their field. I still yield and listen to "top" coaches and their insights. I will probably always argue my point of view with great coaches. But one thing I will do is admit when I got something wrong. I think I might be doing that soon with TennisMastery's research and experience with the twohanded forehand.

My goal right now, is not to be a 5.5 or above player. Although I could if I wanted to sacrafice some things dear to me.

Several years ago, I was here reading advice and at the time the advice was not so good. So, I invented a character called Bungalow Bill and started typing. It is funny when you are actually making sense that people label you as a "know-it-all" but yet I don't know it all. The real issue was it was easy to give good advice over the bad. So I stood out.

The other thing I have going for me is I truly care about how players grow in tennis more than my own game. I could really careless how I hit a ball. I can hit all the serves, all the forehands, all the backhands, and all the volleys (Eastern and Continental). My real aspirations is to offer advice for free to those that want to get better at their game. I really care about that.

I care about your goals, how well you are doing with your relationships, your fitness, your technique, and whatever else concerns you.

I will go to great lengths to answer your questions via email or withing this forum. I will take the time to answer the same question over and over again. I will try to paint the picture from different angles hoping that you will get an ahhhh-haaaa out of it.

I love to write and I love to see if I can teach someone here without ever stepping on the court. I find teaching on the court very easy. I have everything at my disposal to get my point across. I am a no-nonsense type of coach and value hard training to improve a tennis player.

If you ever take a lesson from me, the last thing I ever want to hear is that it was a waste of money. I will care more about the lesson or my writings more then you ever could imagine, which is why I am editing my posts constantly.

So you are right, you don't have to do a darn thing with my posts. But you need to know this, if you ever have a question, I will be there to answer it. :)

Kaptain Karl
05-29-2006, 11:56 PM
... I made a mistake and gave her back to a local coach and the coach changed her strokes back to the traditional method (the close stance, follow thru to the front, bend your knees, hit everything in front and don't hit as hard) during that year she did not win another tournament. 2 months ago I've started coaching her again using the oscar method, her game has improved and she is winning againYou are creating a false dichtomy with your post. There's no "OW way or the Traditional way." (I've easily understood BB in this. You seem determined to misinterpret what BB has already posted.)

The problem many of us have with OW is ... he is a phony self-promoter. (Go back and re-read that previous sentence. You may notice I did not condemn his "method".)

[In case you're planning to ask, I was a Teaching Pro for 12 years and I've Coached HS tennis for four years ... and I took First Place in the 5th & 6th Grade Spelling Bee. (If I were as shifty as OW, I'd also claim to have "worked with Chris Evert" ... because she ran into me, almost knocking me down, trying to escape the groupies at the USO in '73. I'm sure that encounter helped her game though.)]

... we would appreciate if you let Bill Bungalow speak for himself.Am I the only one who noticed the irony here? (artworks - In case you missed it, you -- who are posting on behalf of OW -- chide someone for posting on behalf of BB. Did you get it?)

- KK

Kaptain Karl
05-30-2006, 12:10 AM
====================

Oscar04-27-2006, 10:51 AM
... <snip> ...

Preparing early: just a myth commentators help perpetuate !

Most conventional tennis teachers, including coaches at a very high level, not realizing its negative effect, counsel their students to take the racquet back early. <snip> ...

===============================

The first thing that needs to be clarified is what constitutes the takeback, racquet preparation, etc. with coaches that do not subscribe to Oscar's methods and those that do.

What you are going to find is Oscar (in his clever way) took a drill that emphasizes and exaggerates the shoulder rotation and the racquet back and demonized it making innocent followers believe that ALL other coaches make their students play the game with their racquet all the way back. THIS IS THE UNITED STATES method of teaching. Funny thing is, I don't do this. Yandell doesn't do this. Braden did it but only to emphasize a shoulder preparation problem but he never (during my time with him) said for players to run with their racquets back.... This bore repeating. Thanks Bill, for focusing on the real problem. OW calls preparation "take back" and others call it "shoulder turn" "preparation", etc.

When I was a TP (in the '70s) there was one fellow in town whose students DID indeed run around for their shots with their rackets pointing at the back fence. (Notably, most of his students no longer play tennis.) All of the rest of us TP's in that town disagreed with *that TP's instruction.

- KK

Bungalo Bill
05-30-2006, 12:24 AM
This bore repeating. Thanks Bill, for focusing on the real problem. OW calls preparation "take back" and others call it "shoulder turn" "preparation", etc.

When I was a TP (in the '70s) there was one fellow in town whose students DID indeed run around for their shots with their rackets pointing at the back fence. (Notably, most of his students no longer play tennis.) All of the rest of us TP's in that town disagreed with *that TP's instruction.

- KK

I would have disagreed right along with you. :)

DoubleHanded&LovinIt
05-30-2006, 12:27 AM
Kaptain Karl,

Don't call the Wegnerites out on their false dichotomies and straw-mans--if you take that away from them, what will be left?

Also, since you are a moderator, please take up this issue about the poster heylookimachink. That kind of racism is unacceptable and the poster should be either banned or at the very least be forced to change his user name. Don't you think? I'd appreciate your consideration in this matter. Thanks.

vinky
05-30-2006, 12:33 AM
You are creating a false dichtomy with your post. There's no "OW way or the Traditional way."

I agree with this. It's a fallacy to make this distinction.

artworks
05-30-2006, 01:48 AM
Am I the only one who noticed the irony here? (artworks - In case you missed it, you -- who are posting on behalf of OW -- chide someone for posting on behalf of BB. Did you get it?)
- KK

KK, I just hope OW is also with us here in this forum. While having BB live here and speak for him is another story...

Bungalo Bill
05-30-2006, 02:03 AM
KK, I just hope OW is also with us here in this forum. While having BB live here and speak for him is another story...

He won't, several of us have gone to him and posted our questions, he has yet to answer them. At the very least he doesn't answer the questions directly and often evades the real question. :)

artworks
05-30-2006, 02:07 AM
Well I already have! Search and find! What do you want to hear? That I have been in the stands coaching famous tennis players? Not me. I am just a tennis coach who studies tennis technique. Nothing more and nothing less.

If that is not enough for you, no worries listen to other people. I don't think John or Vic would be involved with someone if they didnt know what they are talking about.

If I did coach top pros, I wouldnt be here offering free advice now would I? Take advantage of it, if you don't understand things, find someone that you can understand. I don't have a problem with that at all.

Here is my "credentials" if that is what you want to call it.

I played tennis for San Diego State a long time ago. I played tennis for a long time in sunny Southern California. Although I quit tennis (because of burnout), I still studied tennis from a technical perspective. I do not spend time learning racquet technology, string technology, court technology, or anything else but things that relate to technique, instruction, coaching, and physical fitness. That is it.

My educational background is in human learning theory (how people learn), sports performance, and performance improvement technology (getting someone or something to do it better). I have a degree in business.

Prior to being in two car accidents, I was an avid fitness nut, and use that knowledge in the sport of tennis today.

I know what it is like learning tennis on your own and with a good coach. I also know what it feels like learning from not-so good coaches. I have an excellent talent in analysis and am able to take complex information and simplify it. I can get as technical as they come or as basic as they come.

I have taught at Vic Bradens Tennis College but don't subscribe to all of Vic's teaching. It was a job and I often felt Vic was a bit too light on things. I think Vic is a great guy and has some great research that still stands, but I also have discarded a lot as invalid or simply viewed it as being a bit wierd.

I am a hodge podge of instructional technique, I don't ever say "this guy knows it all." I take the good from coaches and discard the stuff that is iffy or not so verifiable.

John Yandell and I are friends. He knows his stuff and I will yield to those that I feel know what they are talking about. TennisMastery is also now my friend and we as of today had a good conversation on tennis. He is also going to help me learn more about his insights on the twohanded forehand.

My main claim to fame is my ability to see things, communicate things, and mix in how the brain learns and transforms physical movement into a result. Am I an expert in it? Nope, I am still learning. I still read biomechanic articles from experts in their field. I still yield and listen to "top" coaches and their insights. I will probably always argue my point of view with great coaches. But one thing I will do is admit when I got something wrong. I think I might be doing that soon with TennisMastery's research and experience with the twohanded forehand.

My goal right now, is not to be a 5.5 or above player. Although I could if I wanted to sacrafice some things dear to me.

Several years ago, I was here reading advice and at the time the advice was not so good. So, I invented a character called Bungalow Bill and started typing. It is funny when you are actually making sense that people label you as a "know-it-all" but yet I don't know it all. The real issue was it was easy to give good advice over the bad. So I stood out.

The other thing I have going for me is I truly care about how players grow in tennis more than my own game. I could really careless how I hit a ball. I can hit all the serves, all the forehands, all the backhands, and all the volleys (Eastern and Continental). My real aspirations is to offer advice for free to those that want to get better at their game. I really care about that.

I care about your goals, how well you are doing with your relationships, your fitness, your technique, and whatever else concerns you.

I will go to great lengths to answer your questions via email or withing this forum. I will take the time to answer the same question over and over again. I will try to paint the picture from different angles hoping that you will get an ahhhh-haaaa out of it.

I love to write and I love to see if I can teach someone here without ever stepping on the court. I find teaching on the court very easy. I have everything at my disposal to get my point across. I am a no-nonsense type of coach and value hard training to improve a tennis player.

If you ever take a lesson from me, the last thing I ever want to hear is that it was a waste of money. I will care more about the lesson or my writings more then you ever could imagine, which is why I am editing my posts constantly.

So you are right, you don't have to do a darn thing with my posts. But you need to know this, if you ever have a question, I will be there to answer it. :)

I'm listening and I thank you for your sincere effort to reply to my post. However, I still would like to know the gentleman behind the username Bungalow Bill.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't it John Yandell was/or still associated with Tennisone.com before he started his own website?

Incidentally, I also do have subscription with Brent Abel (though his teaching contradicts that of OW), and as you can see, I heavily rely on online coaching and so I want to know the coach's credibility and you can't blame me as I pay my hard earned money to improve and enjoy playing tennis.

waves2ya
05-30-2006, 05:06 AM
So Bill (bio submitted afterall)...

What's w/ the surfer icon? And - did someone spoof you over at that other site (New Testament stuff) or are you just as passionate about Christ & Holy Spirit as you are... tennis?

Just curious (yes - my .sig outs me as a surfer; it's a salutation in the line-up).

JCo872
05-30-2006, 08:52 AM
I'm listening and I thank you for your sincere effort to reply to my post. However, I still would like to know the gentleman behind the username Bungalow Bill.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't it John Yandell was/or still associated with Tennisone.com before he started his own website?

Incidentally, I also do have subscription with Brent Abel (though his teaching contradicts that of OW), and as you can see, I heavily rely on online coaching and so I want to know the coach's credibility and you can't blame me as I pay my hard earned money to improve and enjoy playing tennis.

What's up with the "I pay my hard earned money?" Last I checked this was a free forum. And good god, how much more does Bungalow Bill have to tell you about himself??

just out
05-30-2006, 09:02 AM
I'm listening and I thank you for your sincere effort to reply to my post. However, I still would like to know the gentleman behind the username Bungalow Bill.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't it John Yandell was/or still associated with Tennisone.com before he started his own website?

Incidentally, I also do have subscription with Brent Abel (though his teaching contradicts that of OW), and as you can see, I heavily rely on online coaching and so I want to know the coach's credibility and you can't blame me as I pay my hard earned money to improve and enjoy playing tennis.

You heavily rely on online coaching, that's probably your first mistake. Do you pay to improve and enjoy, or do you pay to improve so that you will enjoy? I'm not improving much anymore and still enjoy !!!!!!!

BB, better get ready for that complete background check before you give any more free advice :)

TennisParent
05-30-2006, 09:44 AM
What's up with the "I pay my hard earned money?" Last I checked this was a free forum. And good god, how much more does Bungalow Bill have to tell you about himself??
LOL, I agree. I think that the great body of work and commitment to the growth of this forum BB makes speaks for itself. The fact that he does it for FREE and doesn't have a website, dvd or book to sell only enhances his credibility in my eyes.

Bungalo Bill
05-30-2006, 10:19 AM
So Bill (bio submitted afterall)...

What's w/ the surfer icon? And - did someone spoof you over at that other site (New Testament stuff) or are you just as passionate about Christ & Holy Spirit as you are... tennis?

Just curious (yes - my .sig outs me as a surfer; it's a salutation in the line-up).



The New Testament stuff is a way for me to combat the junk of Scientology. It is sort of a clashing of swords so to speak. If Oscar wants to go that direction (philisophical, religious, or spiritual) I will go that direction, I just choose a different weapon. Oscar is not answering my questions. He always has a squishy, squirmy, slippery way of talking. I don't know how else to combat that Scientology junk, so I figure I let Him fight it and wait till he gets back on tennis. :)

The surfing pitcure is my in me 20's at my favorite break called Gas Chambers. I loved to surf. It was extremely relaxing. It is in Hawaii an me and a couple of guys rented the house in front of this break. Surfing is the other sport I love with a close third to volleyball. I managed to work my way up to surfing 10ft. North Shore. A friend of mine took the photo.

Here is the thing, I am not a superstar tennis player nor a superstar coach. I am simply a lot like you guys are. I payed my dues, walked through the frustration, the practices, the drills, the goals, the aspirations, I experienced burnout, I experienced success, I experienced failure, I experienced different coaching styles and no coaching style. I couldn't afford lessons while my rich friends could, I would take pictures with to the wall and practice. I heard the myths, believed the myths, found out the myths were lies, and grew up seeing some of the best names in tennis.

With all the experience I have had, coupled with the educational background, and coaching background, I am putting it all together and I seek to provide good instruction and not ask for a dime in exchange. I never had this board when I was younger. The internet was not public at the time. :)

waves2ya
05-30-2006, 03:31 PM
Hey - a big mahalo for the honest answer (takes guts in a snarky iNet world like this)...

And, as always & in advance, for the tennis tips!

artworks
05-30-2006, 09:52 PM
What's up with the "I pay my hard earned money?" Last I checked this was a free forum. And good god, how much more does Bungalow Bill have to tell you about himself??

It will not do good to jump on the gun without properly thinking.

artworks
05-30-2006, 09:54 PM
You heavily rely on online coaching, that's probably your first mistake. Do you pay to improve and enjoy, or do you pay to improve so that you will enjoy? I'm not improving much anymore and still enjoy !!!!!!!

BB, better get ready for that complete background check before you give any more free advice :)

Probable mistake, KID? Sorry, you don't understand.

JCo872
05-30-2006, 10:04 PM
It will not do good to jump on the gun without properly thinking.

What do you mean by jumping the gun without thinking?

And I was just curious if you are sending Bungalo Bill checks in the mail. If so, that's fantastic. BB is more qualified than any coach I know. He has studied video relentlessy, studied every major theory of modern strokes out there, integrated those theories, and not to mention worked with people in this forum for I don't know how long out of sheer passion for the game and for teaching others. In my opinion a guy like that could easily charge 100 bucks an hour for his superior technical knowledge and expertise.

Now if I am mistaken and you are not sending BB checks in the mail, then I don't get your point about what your hard earned money has to do with BB's credentials?

Please elaborate, I'm confused.

artworks
05-30-2006, 10:07 PM
LOL, I agree. I think that the great body of work and commitment to the growth of this forum BB makes speaks for itself. The fact that he does it for FREE and doesn't have a website, dvd or book to sell only enhances his credibility in my eyes.

Who said that members have to pay for this forum? :mrgreen:

There are countless of tennis website offering free tips and instruction online. But there are those who have made capital investment and do business.

I'm in this website mainly for products as a regular customer of TW. I just find it unethical for someone behind an alternick to attack the personal ways of other people in the Tennis Community.

artworks
05-30-2006, 10:10 PM
What do you mean by jumping the gun without thinking?

And I was just curious if you are sending Bungalo Bill checks in the mail. If so, that's fantastic. BB is more qualified than any coach I know. He has studied video relentlessy, studied every major theory of modern strokes out there, integrated those theories, and not to mention worked with people in this forum for I don't know how long out of sheer passion for the game and for teaching others. In my opinion a guy like that could easily charge 100 bucks an hour for his superior technical knowledge and expertise.

Now if I am mistaken and you are not sending BB checks in the mail, then I don't get your point about what your hard earned money has to do with BB's credentials?

Please elaborate, I'm confused.

Didn't you just jump of the gun? And now you're confused!

JCo872
05-30-2006, 10:34 PM
Who said that members have to pay for this forum? :mrgreen:

There are countless of tennis website offering free tips and instruction online. But there are those who have made capital investment and do business.

I'm in this website mainly for products as a regular customer of TW. I just find it unethical for someone behind an alternick to attack the personal ways of other people in the Tennis Community.

Well from what I understand it's a lot more than BB that have disagreements with Wegner. And BB didn't even start this post. I did! But if you read what BB says, he is very specific about his criticism. False or misleading or exaggerated claims. I actually like a lot of Oscar's stuff (despite the pull off the ball idea), and BB says he has problems with only some of his ideas, while liking other parts.

But I did immediately wonder about Oscar's inflated credentials myself when I first found out about him. I seriously doubt he had anything to do with Kuerten. And he makes claims like this, taken directly from his website:

"Venus and Serena Williams, Guga Kuerten, Paradorn Srichaphan, Vincent Spadea, Marat Safin, the pros and coaches of the Spanish Armada, the new crop of Argentinian and South American players, Russians, are part of a long list of players and coaches who have benefited from Oscar Wegner's teaching legacy."

That seems a little overblown doesn't it?

artworks
05-30-2006, 10:49 PM
I'll tell you what makes me uncomfortable.

The person who's teaching method is put into question is Oscar Wegner (real name and a tennis personality in his own right) and the guy who scrutinizes the method with corresponding personal attacks (which I really find unethical and unprofessional) is hidden behind an alternick called Bungalow Bill.

Not disclosing your true indentity coupled with personal attacks only put you in a very awkward postion in the eyes of professional people.

I'm okay in discussing tennis technique. People will have different teachings and preference. But no need TO ATTACK other people who do not conform with what you thought is the right way.

artworks
05-30-2006, 10:59 PM
But I did immediately wonder about Oscar's inflated credentials myself when I first found out about him. I seriously doubt he had anything to do with Kuerten. And he makes claims like this, taken directly from his website:

"Venus and Serena Williams, Guga Kuerten, Paradorn Srichaphan, Vincent Spadea, Marat Safin, the pros and coaches of the Spanish Armada, the new crop of Argentinian and South American players, Russians, are part of a long list of players and coaches who have benefited from Oscar Wegner's teaching legacy."

That seems a little overblown doesn't it?

Interesting to note is that nobody (include Bjorn Borg in the list as well) amongst those mentioned big names DISOWN Oscar's claim.

Let me know if one of them sue's him for using their names to gain grounds or take advantage in his tennis business.

I bought Oscar's tennis products, and if he's LYING. I'll be totally DISAPPOINTED in paying him my "HARD EARNED MONEY."

chess9
05-30-2006, 11:20 PM
I'll tell you what makes me uncomfortable.

The person who's teaching method is put into question is Oscar Wegner (real name and a tennis personality in his own right) and the guy who scrutinizes the method with corresponding personal attacks (which I really find unethical and unprofessional) is hidden behind an alternick called Bungalow Bill.

Not disclosing your true indentity coupled with personal attacks only put you in a very awkward postion in the eyes of professional people.

I'm okay in discussing tennis technique. People will have different teachings and preference. But no need TO ATTACK other people who do not conform with what you thought is the right way.

So, Artworks, what is your real name, address, and phone number?

-Robert

artworks
05-30-2006, 11:29 PM
So, Artworks, what is your real name, address, and phone number?

-Robert

Nice try Bob! :mrgreen:

Kaptain Karl
05-30-2006, 11:39 PM
I just find it unethical for someone behind an alternick to attack the personal ways of other people in the Tennis Community.If you find that "unethical" you are in for very many disappointments in life.

I find it unseemly that you would "promote" a competitor's teaching (and transitively, his own forum) here on TT. You must have really odd "roots' ... ethically speaking.

- KK

artworks
05-31-2006, 12:01 AM
I've always believe the TTW is an integral part of TW.

As I've said in my previous post, I'm a regular on-line customer of TW products. This is the reason why I'm here. Not to promote product. I am a customer not supplier.

If some people could not differentiate Ethical from Unethical then I'll rest my case.

DISAPPOINMENT? I'm happy with the products I've had so far.

tsungtak
05-31-2006, 04:25 AM
“Pull across their body” was the original question on this post, My daughter and I have tried this, for my daughter it worked and I am still trying to make it work for me. Before I go any further let me say when you are dealing with an Oscar dvd, it is like a legal contract, YOU HAVE TO READ THE FINE PRINT. When you watch his video some things stand out more than others, but it seems like the small things are what make the stroke work.

This has been our experience, with my daughter it has taken her 3 months, 5 days a week before the light bulb came on, but when it came on it was bright. Her forehand use to be a drive with a little topspin, the result was very inconsistent and tended to go long. It had a nice kick but it never bounced very high around the hip area (the strike zone for her opponent). Her new forehand is very consistent with a lot of kick, it has lost some of its pace but gained a lot more angles.

With me it has been a different story, it doesn’t work with a continental grip and every time I try it I have a sore chest and shoulder. Earlier BB said “The pulling does not take place at the elbow which many end up doing.” is what I experienced.

My conclusion is that this works good for the younger generation who grew up with the open stance, semi western grip and are in great shape. Or you have no tennis experience. One more thing I don’t think this is a good style of forehand if you are a small frame female.

JCo872
05-31-2006, 05:13 AM
So, Artworks, what is your real name, address, and phone number?

-Robert

LOL

JCo872
05-31-2006, 07:10 AM
Interesting to note is that nobody (include Bjorn Borg in the list as well) amongst those mentioned big names DISOWN Oscar's claim.

Let me know if one of them sue's him for using their names to gain grounds or take advantage in his tennis business.

I bought Oscar's tennis products, and if he's LYING. I'll be totally DISAPPOINTED in paying him my "HARD EARNED MONEY."

You do have a point there.

JCo872
05-31-2006, 07:18 AM
“Pull across their body” was the original question on this post, My daughter and I have tried this, for my daughter it worked and I am still trying to make it work for me. Before I go any further let me say when you are dealing with an Oscar dvd, it is like a legal contract, YOU HAVE TO READ THE FINE PRINT. When you watch his video some things stand out more than others, but it seems like the small things are what make the stroke work.

This has been our experience, with my daughter it has taken her 3 months, 5 days a week before the light bulb came on, but when it came on it was bright. Her forehand use to be a drive with a little topspin, the result was very inconsistent and tended to go long. It had a nice kick but it never bounced very high around the hip area (the strike zone for her opponent). Her new forehand is very consistent with a lot of kick, it has lost some of its pace but gained a lot more angles.

With me it has been a different story, it doesn’t work with a continental grip and every time I try it I have a sore chest and shoulder. Earlier BB said “The pulling does not take place at the elbow which many end up doing.” is what I experienced.

My conclusion is that this works good for the younger generation who grew up with the open stance, semi western grip and are in great shape. Or you have no tennis experience. One more thing I don’t think this is a good style of forehand if you are a small frame female.

Yes, definitely doesn't work with a continental grip at all. I'm glad it worked for your daughter. I think his ideas are excellent to be honest, I just wish he would look at video and get a more realistic notion of what happens at contact. Before you sweep across the body, you need to hit through the ball for a bit. I saw an article on TennisOne about this kid named Jan who apparently watches Oscar's videos all day. The kid was amazing. I think Oscar has a good sense of the rhythm and timing of modern strokes. If he would just say that pros really hit through the ball and lift and stay behind the ball BEFORE sweeping across I'd be happy. He's right that you don't "hit through five balls" but you do have to go through contact before sweeping across the body, which you can clearly see on that "How to hit Topspin" article I posted.

Kaptain Karl
05-31-2006, 07:33 AM
DISAPPOINMENT? I'm happy with the products I've had so far.I don't have enough posting experience with you to claim you "dodged" my point ... but I wonder.

You thought it "unethical" that BB challenged OW while "hiding" behind a pseudodym. (One, BTW, he has written under for years ... on more than one highly regarded site.) My point in posting you are in for lots of disappointment is ... the mini-conspiracy you see in BB's use of a screen name suggests to me you will find lots of reasons to distrust, dislike, and disassociate yourself from some vibrant "communities". You'll be ... disappointed ... a lot.

(Notice, there's nothing in my suggestion about "as a TW customer.")

P.S. Is English a second or tertiary language for you? Serious question....

- KK

Bungalo Bill
05-31-2006, 07:57 AM
I just find it unethical for someone behind an alternick to attack the personal ways of other people in the Tennis Community.

Well you can call it an attack. I call it a challenge. You use an alternate ego and have just "attacked" or "challenged" my credentials. So is it okay for you to do so and not others?

Or are you just dumb and blind?

Quit being so weakminded and stand up straight. I have been attacked, you have been attacked, everyone that posts with any amount of volume will be attacked. Get real man, this is the nature of these boards and the internet. Get a backbone and quit crying.

I really don't care what you think about my post to Oscar (your Father), my post stands. He has yet to answer it. In fact, he has summoned one of his sidekicks to take it to email to convince us of Oscar's divinity. Which I can't wait to thrash. You ought to read his crap. It is more vague than his master's comeback.

If you like Oscar's methods fine. If I don't care for Oscar and have made my points, what do you care? Don't I get to choose if I think he is bunk? Aren't I privledged to have my own opinion even though it shakes the knees of weak-knee'd sisters like you?

If I told you that most of Vic Bradens' stuff was quackery would you even care? I even worked for the guy! Why do Oscar followers get such conviction when people point out that something aint right?

kevhen
05-31-2006, 08:28 AM
No need to start asking people if they are dumb and blind. Just state your opinion and leave it at that.

Bungalo Bill
05-31-2006, 08:41 AM
No need to start asking people if they are dumb and blind. Just state your opinion and leave it at that.

Yeah, well, no need to antagonize to stir up rif-raf either. Didn't you say you like to antagonize yourself? Am I the aim at times for that?

It is funny how people here dont like to be antagonized but yet are antagonizers themselves.

People say don't argue, but yet when a topic is near and dear to their hearts - they argue.

People say dont call someone a name, but turn around and call someone a name when their views are challenged.

Maybe I should have said "Now, look at your statement, read the challenge you gave me, then look at your nickname. Is that your real name? Does your statement seem to be idiotic in nature? If someone wrote this to you, would you think this person was lacking something - like intelligence?"

How is that? I am not calling him an idiot but stated my opinion that his statement was idiotic. Is that better for you Mr. Antagonizer?

I pulled up a Thesaurus and found the word IDIOTIC. Is there a better word that I could have used to express my opinion?

Main Entry: idiotic
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: stupid
Synonyms: asinine, batty*, crazy, daffy*, daft, ding-a-ling, dull, dumb, dumdum, fatuous, foolhardy, foolish, gorked, half-witted, hare-brained, harebrained*, imbecile, imbecilic, inane, insane, jackass, jerk off, lunatic, moronic, senseless, silly, squirrelly*, thick-witted*, unintelligent.

Kevhen, you are the last person that should be saying this.

kevhen
05-31-2006, 09:31 AM
Arguing is not the same as name calling. I will antagonize if you persist in name calling when others don't agree with you. State your tennis-related opinion and leave it at that.

Bungalo Bill
05-31-2006, 09:33 AM
Here is a conversation I am having (or had) with a poster on OSCAR WEGNERS WEBSITE. One of the posters here at TW (no need to remember as he wasn't important), cryed about me saying all this stuff about Oscar here versus to his face. So guess what I did? Yup, I created a thread on his very own website. But the following post was interesting. I am sure Oscar is a busy man and is the reason why he doesn't respond to Cannondale.

================================================== ========
Cannondale
Registered User Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 7

Question for Bungalow Bill Please Help!

Bugalow Bill, it seems that Mr. Wegner is not contributing much to this forum so I will address my question to you. I play 3.5/4.0 singles, pretty happy overall with my game but for some reason I give up too many free points with my forehand return on soft easy second serves, usually blowing these long, but sometimes net. No problems rallying with fh from baseline and with returning hard serves. Just on the creampuffs No such prob on my 2 handed backhand. I use a southwestern grip and hit with moderate topspin, when I try to hit more topspin, closing face it nets, tried laying back wrist as someone suggested and bigger wiper motion, but made even more errors. Please help!
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Bungalow Bill
Registered User Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 10

There are a couple things that will help you in this area. They both require focus.

First, on second serves try playing like the server does. This will take a mind shift. For example, when the server serves to his box, return the ball to your box as if you were the server. This will help you hit through the ball but also not overhit which is the tendency for players still developing their service returns. Chances are you will find the "swing speed" that will allow you to hit a bit deeper for a consistent return of serve. By the way, this is a great way to return in doubles. For now, THINK BOX TO BOX.

Secondly, you need to practice your service returns. You can practice be choking up on the handle which will shorten your swing and will "deaden" your hit to help it land in the court. The other thing you need to determine is what you are doing with your backswing.

It is not enough to "think" you have a short backswing. You must analyze it and determine visually (you personally) what it is and what it is doing.

First you must place your toes on the sideline with your body perpendicular to the net, then take your racquet back being careful to NOT cross the line in the backswing. The is the maximum backswing you should have for your groundstrokes and definetly the maximum swing for the service return. In fact, I would bring the racquet up some from there for better timing.

Now, film yourself and see if you are staying within those guidelines. Next, have someone serve you balls from the service line as they provide you feedback when they think your swing went to far. That will help you hone in the backswing.
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#34 05-24-2006, 02:29 PM
Cannondale
Registered User Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 7

Thanks so much. You are suggesting a completely differnet but promising solution for my problem, I have tried to fix my errant forehand by using technical means ex. differnt swing paths, trying stronger grips or trying to hit with more topspin as suggested to me by others all to no avail. What you are suggesting seems to be more along the lines of a mental and tactical solution. I will try this at once.
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#35 05-24-2006, 05:49 PM
Cannondale
Registered User Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 7

Wow

Bill, Wow, just came in after a couple hours of practise with my buddy. Your tips absolutely worked! Much more consistent than before. Patience is the key. I am looking forward to putting this into play this weekend in a match that counts. Thank you so much.
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#36 Yesterday, 08:34 PM
Bungalow Bill
Registered User Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 10

That is great! By the way, I am labelled a "conventional" tennis teacher on Oscar's terms so in essence I don't know what I am talking about.

Keep practicing and stay focused on what you are trying to do.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++

So, I am a bad coach? I don't know what I am talking about? Does anyone really think that it is HARDER to show a person this on-court vs. instructing someone miles away over words?

NoBadMojo called me a person that has NO CLUE what I am talking about and so have several others. He often jumps into my posts to batter them, discredit, and downplay my accomplishments, but yet turns around and pretends he is the good guy. And so do some others here.

Additionally, does a coach need to have played in the pros, played in college, write books, in order to know how to teach tennis? How many good pros out there don't have those credentials? How many good pros are providing outstanding tips, verified by people using the tips, and are DOING IT FOR FREE???????????

Rez_PS2
06-01-2006, 07:42 AM
Actually, I reckon Wegner is correct. Federer's forehand illustrates this perfectly. If there's some replay footage, look at the path of the ball after he has hit it. The initial projection is straight up on every one of his rally balls (those hit with moderate or excessive spin, not his flattened out winners). The only way to do that is to pull up on the ball at the point of impact. You don't stop the racquet from moving foreward (that's completely silly and out of your control - that's just the momentum from the foreward swing) but you can concentrate on using your muscles to pull it to the left and up which generates an incredible amount of spin. It works damn well. I'm hitting heavier balls than I ever have by doing this and winning so many matches just by hitting with margin and getting the ball to hit the court and accelerate towards the back fence. It's aggressive and safe, allowing you to keep your oppenent pinned back and half the time, you only need to hit the ball moderately deep. He's bascially teaching you to use topspin as a weapon and not just for keeping the ball in play. It's genius.

predrag
06-01-2006, 08:52 AM
Actually, I reckon Wegner is correct. Federer's forehand illustrates this perfectly.
WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!
Federer forehand is not being pulled ACROSS the body!!
He is hitting through and up!
HE prepares EARLY. Way early




If there's some replay footage, look at the path of the ball after he has hit it. The initial projection is straight up on every one of his rally balls (those hit with moderate or excessive spin, not his flattened out winners). The only way to do that is to pull up on the ball at the point of impact. You don't stop the racquet from moving foreward (that's completely silly and out of your control - that's just the momentum from the foreward swing) but you can concentrate on using your muscles to pull it to the left and up which generates an incredible amount of spin. It works damn well. I'm hitting heavier balls than I ever have by doing this and winning so many matches just by hitting with margin and getting the ball to hit the court and accelerate towards the back fence. It's aggressive and safe, allowing you to keep your oppenent pinned back and half the time, you only need to hit the ball moderately deep. He's bascially teaching you to use topspin as a weapon and not just for keeping the ball in play. It's genius.


You are hitting heavier ball because you are hitting through AND with lots of topsin. Totally oposite of what OW is claiminig!!!!!!!


Regards, Predrag

FiveO
06-01-2006, 09:00 AM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1273724609613333533&q=federer

5

predrag
06-01-2006, 09:06 AM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1273724609613333533&q=federer

5


OK, FiveO, what is this video supposed to show?

Regards, predrag

FiveO
06-01-2006, 09:58 AM
OK, FiveO, what is this video supposed to show?

Regards, predrag

This:

You are hitting heavier ball because you are hitting through AND with lots of topsin. Totally oposite of what OW is claiminig!!!!!!!

A picture is worth a thousand words.

I've already engaged in this debate, ad nauseum, with some OW devotees on this forum if you care to search.

5

predrag
06-01-2006, 10:05 AM
This:



A picture is worth a thousand words.

I've already engaged in this debate, ad nauseum, with some OW devotees on this forum if you care to search.

5

Hey, I just wanted to make sure what you meant.
The thing is OW people can watch the same video and come up with totally opposite conclusion.

Regards, Predrag

FiveO
06-01-2006, 10:17 AM
....The thing is OW people can watch the same video and come up with totally opposite conclusion....

...I agree. This a "wonderment" to me.

5

Bungalo Bill
06-01-2006, 12:47 PM
Hey, I just wanted to make sure what you meant.
The thing is OW people can watch the same video and come up with totally opposite conclusion.

Regards, Predrag

LOL! Very good Predrag, long time no hear. How is your tennis thing going?

predrag
06-01-2006, 12:59 PM
LOL! Very good Predrag, long time no hear. How is your tennis thing going?
Tennis? My tennis? What my tennis? :)

Not that bad. I've been lurking on this board, just don't post much.

This weekend I was in your old neighborhood, or almost there.
Costa Mesa. Took my son to Quicksliver Championships.

Regards, predrag

Bungalo Bill
06-01-2006, 01:30 PM
Tennis? My tennis? What my tennis? :)

Not that bad. I've been lurking on this board, just don't post much.

This weekend I was in your old neighborhood, or almost there.
Costa Mesa. Took my son to Quicksliver Championships.

Regards, predrag

Quicksilver? What? huh? What do you mean? Quicksilver used to have their stuff in mainly surfing but they have branched out. What was it?

Good to hear from you again, hope you are enjoying.

predrag
06-01-2006, 01:42 PM
Quicksilver? What? huh? What do you mean? Quicksilver used to have their stuff in mainly surfing but they have branched out. What was it?

Good to hear from you again, hope you are enjoying.

:mrgreen:

That's the name of the National tournament. Tennis of course :)
LAst weekend in Costa MEssa, Irvine, ...

predrag

Bungalo Bill
06-01-2006, 01:52 PM
:mrgreen:

That's the name of the National tournament. Tennis of course :)
LAst weekend in Costa MEssa, Irvine, ...

predrag

When you are out of it, you are out of it. I think it is one of those age things. :( Great going!

Rez_PS2
06-01-2006, 02:51 PM
WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!
Federer forehand is not being pulled ACROSS the body!!
He is hitting through and up!
HE prepares EARLY. Way early

You are hitting heavier ball because you are hitting through AND with lots of topsin. Totally oposite of what OW is claiminig!!!!!!!


Regards, Predrag

federer may prepare reasonably early (it really is only an average takeback) but he delays the stroke until the ball hits the court. And the topspin I'm generating is because of the lifting action I'm using. This is where Oscar's writing is open to interpratation. I don't think he's telling you to stop the forward momentum on the stroke....you basically can't do that. But he is telling you to regard tennis as a game of lifting the ball against gravity which you do most effectively by pulling up and wrapping your racquet around to your left. There's a lot of space above the net and this is the most effective way to use it. You can't control your arm once you decide to hit through the ball (horizontal component) but you can control the vertical component of your shot.

Bungalo Bill
06-01-2006, 05:19 PM
federer may prepare reasonably early (it really is only an average takeback) but he delays the stroke until the ball hits the court.

You guys are so whacked. First you say the takeback doesn't happen until the boounce, now you say it does. What a bunch of whackos.

Here is the bottom-line: The ball travels from one end to the court to the other in about a second. Yes, ONE SECOND. Do you really think all this "delay" stuff or no "delay" stuff is really preventing players from getting better? The truth is film after film reveals that a professional player WILL BRING THE RACQUET BACK OR PREPARE THE RACQUET BEFORE THE BOUNCE. Unless the ball is hit by grandma, or the ball is coming over in slo-motion, or is a slow ball period, pros will prepare the racquet by taking it back with their shoulder turn BEFORE THE BOUNCE.

How many amens do I have here?

And the topspin I'm generating is because of the lifting action I'm using. This is where Oscar's writing is open to interpratation. I don't think he's telling you to stop the forward momentum on the stroke....you basically can't do that. But he is telling you to regard tennis as a game of lifting the ball against gravity which you do most effectively by pulling up and wrapping your racquet around to your left.

You have got to be kidding me! PAGE 43 (last sentence) from VIC BRADEN'S TENNIS 2000; "DON'T FORGET: TENNIS IS A LIFTING GAME."

Every stroke needs to have SOMETHING going forward into the ball. Players need to rotate INTO the ball and not away from it. Players need to STEP into the line of the incoming ball to increase their chances for clean contact. In either stance, open, closed, semi-open, neutral, or forward, something needs to go INTO the ball.

Kaptain Karl
06-01-2006, 05:53 PM
Amen!

- KK

tennisplayer
06-01-2006, 05:56 PM
Well, we may all be misinterpreting Wegner here. Words have that effect, as we all know...

Watching his video on tennisone, I think what he means is to hit from the inside to the outside. Of course, there will be a significant forward component to the swing. But there is also a huge rotational component caused by going from the inside to the outside, and one could say the racquet is "pulled back" in from the outside to the inside on the latter part of the swing.

Just my $0.02.

Rez_PS2
06-01-2006, 08:02 PM
You guys are so whacked. First you say the takeback doesn't happen until the boounce, now you say it does. What a bunch of whackos.

Here is the bottom-line: The ball travels from one end to the court to the other in about a second. Yes, ONE SECOND. Do you really think all this "delay" stuff or no "delay" stuff is really preventing players from getting better? The truth is film after film reveals that a professional player WILL BRING THE RACQUET BACK OR PREPARE THE RACQUET BEFORE THE BOUNCE. Unless the ball is hit by grandma, or the ball is coming over in slo-motion, or is a slow ball period, pros will prepare the racquet by taking it back with their shoulder turn BEFORE THE BOUNCE.

How many amens do I have here?



You have got to be kidding me! PAGE 43 (last sentence) from VIC BRADEN'S TENNIS 2000; "DON'T FORGET: TENNIS IS A LIFTING GAME."

Every stroke needs to have SOMETHING going forward into the ball. Players need to rotate INTO the ball and not away from it. Players need to STEP into the line of the incoming ball to increase their chances for clean contact. In either stance, open, closed, semi-open, neutral, or forward, something needs to go INTO the ball.

Geez, the takeback obviously happens before the bounce but the foward part of the stroke happens after, unless you guess where the ball is going to be and swing through in an attempt to take it early.

The something going forward is your arm + the weight and momentum of the racquet as you start your foward swing
----------------------> that's the horizontal component.
Any vertical action is up to you....I feel it is best achived by pulling straight up on it without stopping your forward momentum.

Bungalo Bill
06-01-2006, 08:12 PM
Geez, the takeback obviously happens before the bounce

Well you Oscar guys finally got it right.

but the foward part of the stroke happens after, unless you guess where the ball is going to be and swing through in an attempt to take it early.

Of course it does, everyone would look silly if they swung forward before the bounce. Only if you are trying to pick up the ball from the bounce or taking it quickly off the rise would you try to expedite the forward swing to time the ball.

Man, I need to learn how to search in here. I know I had a post explaining all of this backswing and forward swing stuff to a Wagnerite.

The something going forward is your arm + the weight and momentum of the racquet as you start your foward swing
----------------------> that's the horizontal component.
Any vertical action is up to you....I feel it is best achived by pulling straight up on it without stopping your forward momentum.

Yeah no kidding.

What you are saying is if the player rotates his shoulders back properly (or enough), he will rotate or uncoil right back towards the ball. With the racquet beginning to come forward lower than the ball, he can either go straight up or use the natural angle of the arm lifting up which is right around 30 degrees.

Using the 30 degree angle and providing lift from your legs, the ball will feel like it explodes or pops off the racquet without much effort.

The pulling of the racquet is old news and gets started by the shoulder. The lifting is old news as pointed out above. The coiling and uncoiling is old news as this is taught all over the place.

Rez_PS2
06-01-2006, 08:30 PM
lol....so does it really matter who is wrong or right ? Oscar summarises it in a nice package and places the emphasis where it should be. It's great how his advice isn't technical at all so you don't bother to try and fix up little techinical deficiences because most of the timne you are clutching at straws unless it's really really obvious what you are doing wrong. When it comes down to it, singles tennis is all about how good an athlete you are and not really if you technically proficient.

Bungalo Bill
06-01-2006, 08:37 PM
lol....so does it really matter who is wrong or right ? Oscar summarises it in a nice package and places the emphasis where it should be. It's great how his advice isn't technical at all so you don't bother to try and fix up little techinical deficiences because most of the timne you are clutching at straws unless it's really really obvious what you are doing wrong. When it comes down to it, singles tennis is all about how good an athlete you are and not really if you technically proficient.

No it doesnt matter, which is exactly my point.

Oscar claims that all coaches that are not teaching his way are old, conventional, and obsolete. He claims he is the Father of Modern Tennis and makes false claims regarding his "inventions" to the modern game.

Further, I was on his website when he indicated that he was the one that introduced the open stance. I posted a 1926 picture of a professional hitting from the open stance. He also is starting to take claim about pulling the racquet forward, the diaganol path the racquet handle makes as it passes in front of the body which has already been mentioned by Pat Dougherty.

Once again, a lot of things that "Oscar" says he invented or has said he has been saying for years has already been said. If this is the case, then he is not the Father of Modern tennis, he is not truthful, and his little war against coaches that belong to the USPTA or any other organization is unfounded.

Rez_PS2
06-01-2006, 08:53 PM
No it doesnt matter, which is exactly my point.

Oscar claims that all coaches that are not teaching his way are old, conventional, and obsolete. He claims he is the Father of Modern Tennis and makes false claims regarding his "inventions" to the modern game.

unfounded.

Well, he hardly invented them considering that he just looked at the way other players played but you have to give him credit for bringing it all together into a neat package that's very easy to learn. As for his war against the traditional coaches, I don't really care about that....a lot of traditional coaches are sometimes just as stubborn.

Bungalo Bill
06-01-2006, 09:07 PM
Well, he hardly invented them considering that he just looked at the way other players played but you have to give him credit for bringing it all together into a neat package that's very easy to learn.

But others have also brought it together in their way. He has nothing new but claims he made it all.

As for his war against the traditional coaches, I don't really care about that....a lot of traditional coaches are sometimes just as stubborn.

LOL!!! Well, I do care.

Plus, stubborn about what? Didn't I just tell you that Oscar didn't invent anything? Didn't I just indicate that the information that Oscar claims is his own, coaches already knew about? Why would they be stubborn for something they already know? If you want to talk about stubborn, try talking to your buddies about what pros do before the ball bounces. LOL

Here is a post from Oscar's website as I helped one of the posters there:
================================================== =======================
CANNONDALE
Bill, Wow, just came in after a couple hours of practise with my buddy. Your tips absolutely worked! Much more consistent than before. Patience is the key. I am looking forward to putting this into play this weekend in a match that counts. Thank you so much.

BUNGALOW BILL
That is great! By the way, I am labelled a "conventional" tennis teacher on Oscar's terms so in essence I don't know what I am talking about.

Keep practicing and stay focused on what you are trying to do.

Rez_PS2
06-01-2006, 09:35 PM
But others have also brought it together in their way. He has nothing new but claims he made it all.

LOL!!! Well, I do care.

Plus, stubborn about what? Didn't I just tell you that Oscar didn't invent anything? Didn't I just indicate that the information that Oscar claims is his own, coaches already knew about? Why would they be stubborn for something they already know? If you want to talk about stubborn, try talking to your buddies about what pros do before the ball bounces. LOL

Here is a post from Oscar's website as I helped one of the posters there:
================================================== =======================
CANNONDALE
Bill, Wow, just came in after a couple hours of practise with my buddy. Your tips absolutely worked! Much more consistent than before. Patience is the key. I am looking forward to putting this into play this weekend in a match that counts. Thank you so much.

BUNGALOW BILL
That is great! By the way, I am labelled a "conventional" tennis teacher on Oscar's terms so in essence I don't know what I am talking about.

Keep practicing and stay focused on what you are trying to do.

How do you label yourself as a 'conventional' tennis teacher ? I've seen coaches that won't even teach you how to brush the ball for spin as in it's better to use a non-extreme grip and hit thorough it exclusively. Aren't some of your tips pretty much alluding to the same thing as Wegner's tips ? All it looks like Oscar is saying is to use spin as your stock rally ball and when you are feeling confident you can try other things....if it's not working then you can always go back to that. He may be an idiot for trying to trademark these ideas as all his, but that doesn't make his summary wrong as what a lot of people here seem to claim.

Bungalo Bill
06-02-2006, 08:45 AM
How do you label yourself as a 'conventional' tennis teacher ? I've seen coaches that won't even teach you how to brush the ball for spin as in it's better to use a non-extreme grip and hit thorough it exclusively. Aren't some of your tips pretty much alluding to the same thing as Wegner's tips ?

This is exactly my point. Oscar's stance that he constantly perpetuates is that any one that belongs to the USPTA or other professional teaching organizations is "old school", "out of touch", "doing a disservice to their students", and simply will not be able to take their students to the level the pros are playing at. Do you understand this?

I am a former USPTA member and find it difficult to believe that Oscar (as smart as the guy is) would say something like that. Or, perpetuate something like that. He gets people to think that all the coaches in the USPTA march to the methods prescribed by the USPTA. This is so far from the truth!

And you are darn right! My methods are not "conventional" in the sense Oscar is saying. Neither is John Yandell's and many many other coaches that belong to the USPTA.

All coaches have contributed to the modern game, all coaches that do not teach Oscar's methods are not stuck in the mud with no place to go.

All it looks like Oscar is saying is to use spin as your stock rally ball and when you are feeling confident you can try other things....if it's not working then you can always go back to that.

And that is different from what other coaches would say?"
================================================== ===
TENNIS 2000; Vic Braden, page 27: "When I wrote the original edition of this book in the mid-1970's, I stressed the fact that I had always been fascinated by the misconceptions that had given topspin a bad image...the belief that underspin is the easier stroke to learn and control. On the contrary, it has been my experience over the years that underspin is far more difficult to teach to the average player because it demands more talent and timing. I feel topspin is much easier to impart, more reliable under pressure, and much more valuable to players of every ability level.
================================================== ====

Here is the deal. Oscar didn't invent anything except for the way he wants to teach tennis to his students. He like any other good coach borrowed and used information that already existed and incorporated it in his instruction like any other coach in all the teaching organizations.

He may be an idiot for trying to trademark these ideas as all his, but that doesn't make his summary wrong as what a lot of people here seem to claim.

No absolutely not. I have already said that I have no problem with the methods he uses, or his insight to the game of tennis, the guy is a smart man and an excellent tennis player.

His other stuff is what is bothersome to me as well as a lot of other coaches. It isn't just me that has an issue with his narcotically influenced statements, it is others as well. It is also how the followers of Oscar take it. They to become enchanted and start doing and saying things that are not right. They believe Oscar without investigating the truth about things.

tennisplayer
06-02-2006, 10:24 AM
Here are Oscar's words, verbatim, from tennisw.com:

Dear Tennis Parent and friends in this forum:
I enjoyed your exchanges. Just a few things for clarification. I was called "The Father on Modern Tennis", possibly for my work with Spain, in the New Tennis Magazine Show in 1992. The same with Tennis in Two Hours, it came about from what the Germans were calling me in 1982. I think I have a right to mention it. Regarding Guga Kuerten, Larri Passos did not get to be Guga's coach until 1991, when he was 14 years old. Patrick McEnroe (and John as well) used to say it on TV all the time, when Kuerten was playing, that Passos had developed Guga from 8 years old, until I directed Patrick to a page on Guga's website where it said that he had started with Larri at 14 years old.
Regarding the claim that conventional tennis coaching has stunted tennis development in this country, consider this: I offered the open stance, stalking the ball with the racquet in front, topspin across the body, in 1971. I was laughed at. So I went to Spain that year, working in Santander summers, and by 1973 the Spanish Federation noticed the success of the program and named me one of three National coaches and Junior Davis Cup Captain. Their National Tennis School fully adopted these techniques, and we started to put them all over Spain, including with coaches in the Alicante area where Safin lived as a developing junior. The success in afteryears is fully documented.
In December 1989 I self-published my first book, Tennis in 2 Hours, and gave one to the Russian Junior Davis Cup Captain inscribed "for the Russian Tennis Federation". Bud Collins reported to me 12 months after that, in his annual visit to Moscow's tournament, that the Russian coaches in Moscow loved it, and that they wanted more. You see now how the young Russians play and probably wonder why there are so many in the top ranks, just like the Spaniards. And so on, with huge TV exposure in the 90s, these techniques were spreading. It isn't that I invented them. Top players as far back as the 1920s had some of these characteristics, including Tilden, Budge, Kramer, Hoad, Santana. I just put together the differences and the similarities, analyzed it, and came up with the common threads between them. I tested it thoroughly when I stopped playing the circuit and started coaching in 1968 at the Beverly Hills Tennis Club, with the full support of Pancho Segura, who marveled at the results with hackers. I guess my 4 year engineering background helped (an incomplete career traded for a more glamorous international tennis experience) sift through the myriad of misconceptions in this wonderful sport. And through being at the right place sometimes (TV), I was able to disseminate these techniques first in the USA in the ealry 90s, then through ESPN International worldwide, especially to South America, where I was a commentator in tennis from 70 to 120 days a year for 6 years.
You could say that this whole thing was luck and coincidence, but when you consider that I offered these techniques to the USPTA, USPTR, USTA (who are now finally using them in their high performance program through Bobby Bernstein) and was laughed at or derided, including arguments with some top "authorities" John Yandell and Brett Hobden far back on this track (Yandell, Doug King, Hobden, are finally catching up), you can see why I say those association have caused harm to American tennis. I respect your viewpoint, what is true to you is true to you, I just try to give people some more data and facts to consider, and they can make their own decision as to what works best. So here is my story, I don't need to be modest about it, what has occurred has occurred. And I hope you enjoyed it.


I've highlighted some stuff which seems to be bothering some folks here. Frankly, Oscar seems to be a hell of a nice guy, and the title "Father of Modern Tennis" doesn't seem to be something he claimed for himself (see above).

Also, he's polite, he makes it clear that people are free to make their own choice, and he's not as harshly critical as folks on this board. I searched the web for instances of where he might have been very harshly critical, but could find nothing comparable to what happens on TW!! In fact, all the indications are that Oscar is a gentleman.

C'mon, guys, give the man a break, be fair. I am not an Oscar follower, but please, give the poor guy his due! I think he was a man with great insight and courage, for having offered these techniques in the late 60's. Okay, you don't like his website - so don't go to it!

JCo872
06-02-2006, 11:17 AM
Here are Oscar's words, verbatim, from tennisw.com:



I've highlighted some stuff which seems to be bothering some folks here. Frankly, Oscar seems to be a hell of a nice guy, and the title "Father of Modern Tennis" doesn't seem to be something he claimed for himself (see above).

Also, he's polite, he makes it clear that people are free to make their own choice, and he's not as harshly critical as folks on this board. I searched the web for instances of where he might have been very harshly critical, but could find nothing comparable to what happens on TW!! In fact, all the indications are that Oscar is a gentleman.

C'mon, guys, give the man a break, be fair. I am not an Oscar follower, but please, give the poor guy his due! I think he was a man with great insight and courage, for having offered these techniques in the late 60's. Okay, you don't like his website - so don't go to it!

Thanks for the post TennisPlayer. I agree with you.

Bungalo Bill
06-02-2006, 12:48 PM
Here are Oscar's words, verbatim, from tennisw.com:



I've highlighted some stuff which seems to be bothering some folks here. Frankly, Oscar seems to be a hell of a nice guy, and the title "Father of Modern Tennis" doesn't seem to be something he claimed for himself (see above).

Also, he's polite, he makes it clear that people are free to make their own choice, and he's not as harshly critical as folks on this board. I searched the web for instances of where he might have been very harshly critical, but could find nothing comparable to what happens on TW!! In fact, all the indications are that Oscar is a gentleman.

C'mon, guys, give the man a break, be fair. I am not an Oscar follower, but please, give the poor guy his due! I think he was a man with great insight and courage, for having offered these techniques in the late 60's. Okay, you don't like his website - so don't go to it!

So wait, people like Yandell, King, and others are catching up? does he feel the same way about Braden and others? ;)

I appreciate the article TennisPlayer, I really do. But it is funny how this guy changes his tune. It is also equally funny how very few of his offsprings say it this way. The offsprings he produces are pretty adimant about "OLD SCHOOL" vs. "OSCAR'S SCHOOL".

The other interesting thing is if Oscar had a hard time "pushing" his program into the USPTA can you come up with a reason why? The USPTA offers all coaches the ability to teach with their own methods and styles. They do not subscribe to one thing.

The things Oscar has been saying has been said for years. There is nothing new except for the difference in how he says it. So why pick on all the coaches in the USPTA?

Although I can tell you many things I dont agree with Braden on, one thing is, he had a lot of good information to follow as well. But I don't see him marching against the USPTA or the USTA, or any other organization.

So why is it that his disciples get his message wrong? Could it be that he says one thing and writes another?

TennisParent
06-02-2006, 01:13 PM
So wait, people like Yandell, King, and others are catching up? does he feel the same way about Braden and others? ;)

I appreciate the article TennisPlayer, I really do. But it is funny how this guy changes his tune. It is also equally funny how very few of his offsprings say it this way. The offsprings he produces are pretty adimant about "OLD SCHOOL" vs. "OSCAR'S SCHOOL".

The other interesting thing is if Oscar had a hard time "pushing" his program into the USPTA can you come up with a reason why? The USPTA offers all coaches the ability to teach with their own methods and styles. They do not subscribe to one thing.

The things Oscar has been saying has been said for years. There is nothing new except for the difference in how he says it. So why pick on all the coaches in the USPTA?

Although I can tell you many things I dont agree with Braden on, one thing is, he had a lot of good information to follow as well. But I don't see him marching against the USPTA or the USTA, or any other organization.

So why is it that his disciples get his message wrong? Could it be that he says one thing and writes another?

Amen. On the one hand he is saying everyone is free to do whatever is best for them, on the other hand his mission is to stamp out conventional (ie anyone else's) tennis instruction. Yes, he seems gentlemanly when confronted, but at the same time reserves the right to characterize others as dinosaurs. He still hasn't identified who teaches flat rigid forehands, I'm still waiting for the bounce:) on that one Oscar. I guess everyone is for tolerance and free speech when it applies to them.

JCo872
06-02-2006, 01:27 PM
So wait, people like Yandell, King, and others are catching up? does he feel the same way about Braden and others? ;)

I appreciate the article TennisPlayer, I really do. But it is funny how this guy changes his tune. It is also equally funny how very few of his offsprings say it this way. The offsprings he produces are pretty adimant about "OLD SCHOOL" vs. "OSCAR'S SCHOOL".

The other interesting thing is if Oscar had a hard time "pushing" his program into the USPTA can you come up with a reason why? The USPTA offers all coaches the ability to teach with their own methods and styles. They do not subscribe to one thing.

The things Oscar has been saying has been said for years. There is nothing new except for the difference in how he says it. So why pick on all the coaches in the USPTA?

Although I can tell you many things I dont agree with Braden on, one thing is, he had a lot of good information to follow as well. But I don't see him marching against the USPTA or the USTA, or any other organization.

So why is it that his disciples get his message wrong? Could it be that he says one thing and writes another?

Yeah I just let the "catching up" comment slide. Doug King told me he never had heard of Oscar Wegner before. Not a slight or anything, just that Doug figured out his ideas through his own experimentation.

Bungalo Bill
06-02-2006, 01:44 PM
Yeah I just let the "catching up" comment slide. Doug King told me he never had heard of Oscar Wegner before. Not a slight or anything, just that Doug figured out his ideas through his own experimentation.

Let's not forget that Doug also has been well coached and is an accomplished player in his own right.

tennisplayer
06-02-2006, 01:47 PM
Amen. On the one hand he is saying everyone is free to do whatever is best for them, on the other hand his mission is to stamp out conventional (ie anyone else's) tennis instruction. Yes, he seems gentlemanly when confronted, but at the same time reserves the right to characterize others as dinosaurs. He still hasn't identified who teaches flat rigid forehands, I'm still waiting for the bounce:) on that one Oscar. I guess everyone is for tolerance and free speech when it applies to them.

Well, TennisParent, from my own personal experiences, I can guarantee there are really awful coaches out there, even some with certifications! It's not so much that they don't know the right technique - they seem to play decently - but their teaching methods are terrible.

From the discussions we've had on this board, I can tell with certainty that folks like BB and Mahboob Kahn (and many others) would be superior coaches. Because they can lead the student into doing the right thing without clouding their heads with technical details (which we love, so please keep those coming on this board!). And I have a feeling they really have more in common with Oscar than they realize! :-) But sadly, many coaches lack the ability to lead students to the correct technique, even though they themselves play tennis with excellent technique.

I agree that whoever did Oscar's website painted with a rather broad brush in rediculing the USPTR, but let's face it - it's routine marketing these days. We see much worse negative campaigning during our elections (in the US, that is)! And, I have to believe Oscar's detractors give him more grief than Oscar ever has to the so called tennis establishment! :-) I say, wink and let it go!

Bungalo Bill
06-02-2006, 01:50 PM
Well, TennisParent, from my own personal experiences, I can guarantee there are really awful coaches out there, even some with certifications! It's not so much that they don't know the right technique - they seem to play decently - but their teaching methods are terrible.

From the discussions we've had on this board, I can tell with certainty that folks like BB and Mahboob Kahn (and many others) would be superior coaches. Because they can lead the student into doing the right thing without clouding their heads with technical details (which we love, so please keep those coming on this board!). And I have a feeling they really have more in common with Oscar than they realize! :-) But sadly, many coaches lack the ability to lead students to the correct technique, even though they themselves play tennis with excellent technique.

I agree that whoever did Oscar's website painted with a rather broad brush in rediculing the USPTR, but let's face it - it's routine marketing these days. We see much worse negative campaigning during our elections (in the US, that is)! And, I have to believe Oscar's detractors give him more grief than Oscar ever has to the so called tennis establishment! :-) I say, wink and let it go!

Well I think you are one reasonable man, an intelligent man, and one that views things in the proper light. Very well said post. I couldn't be in more agreement with you.

I will pay you the 20 bucks we agreed on behind the scenes on the BB comment later. :)

tennisplayer
06-02-2006, 01:57 PM
Well I think you are one reasonable man, an intelligent man, and one that views things in the proper light. Very well said post. I couldn't be in more agreement with you.

I will pay you the 20 bucks we agreed on behind the scenes on the BB comment later. :)

Just mail it to the address we agreed on... :-)

JCo872
06-02-2006, 01:58 PM
Let's not forget that Doug also has been well coached and is an accomplished player in his own right.

Of course. He was a top college player and I think even tried the pro circuit. That doesn't happen without some seriously good coaching.

JCo872
06-02-2006, 02:01 PM
Well, TennisParent, from my own personal experiences, I can guarantee there are really awful coaches out there, even some with certifications! It's not so much that they don't know the right technique - they seem to play decently - but their teaching methods are terrible.

From the discussions we've had on this board, I can tell with certainty that folks like BB and Mahboob Kahn (and many others) would be superior coaches. Because they can lead the student into doing the right thing without clouding their heads with technical details (which we love, so please keep those coming on this board!). And I have a feeling they really have more in common with Oscar than they realize! :-) But sadly, many coaches lack the ability to lead students to the correct technique, even though they themselves play tennis with excellent technique.

I agree that whoever did Oscar's website painted with a rather broad brush in rediculing the USPTR, but let's face it - it's routine marketing these days. We see much worse negative campaigning during our elections (in the US, that is)! And, I have to believe Oscar's detractors give him more grief than Oscar ever has to the so called tennis establishment! :-) I say, wink and let it go!

What I've seen, over and over and over again is this weird phenomenon of excellent players really having no idea how they do what they do. Their game is in their muscle memory, so they are stuck to teach the ideas that they have heard other coaches say. I can't tell you how many times I have taped a really good player, shown them the video, and they say things like "I had no idea I did this or that". I actually happens pretty much every time I do it. The other problem is that the way a stroke "feels" to a player (like snapping the wrist) is usually just a delayed sensation of something that happens in later parts of the stroke. There is a gap between our doing something, and our perception of it.

So my point is that you can be fantastic at anything in life and have no freaking clue how you are doing it, let alone how to teach others. This is actually a good thing because you can't compete if you are thinking about the details of what you are doing.

On the same note, take a guy like Bollitieri who I don't think can hit a tennis ball. But they guy has produced some of the best instructional videos around.

Kaptain Karl
06-02-2006, 02:14 PM
I offered these techniques to the USPTA, USPTR, USTA ... and was laughed at or derided, including arguments with some top "authorities" John Yandell and Brett Hobden far back on this track (Yandell, Doug King, Hobden, are finally catching up), you can see why I say those association have caused harm to American tennis.He "offered" ... but three are "finally catching up" ... "harm to American tennis."

Wow! What hubris.

- KK

TennisParent
06-02-2006, 02:27 PM
Well, TennisParent, from my own personal experiences, I can guarantee there are really awful coaches out there, even some with certifications! It's not so much that they don't know the right technique - they seem to play decently - but their teaching methods are terrible.
I agree that whoever did Oscar's website painted with a rather broad brush in rediculing the USPTR, but let's face it - it's routine marketing these days. We see much worse negative campaigning during our elections (in the US, that is)!

Yes, I see these guys all the time here in my city. They love some book called "Play Better tennis in two hours!":)

So true about the negative election campaigning, I hate to check my mail anymore!

Bungalo Bill
06-02-2006, 04:09 PM
I hate to check my mail anymore!

Check it! Check that email! Oscar's followers need to know that Oscar did not invent a thing. He simply created a method he felt worked for his own teaching style and for his students.

The thing about the USPTA and other organizations is misguided. The USPTA most likely did not "laugh" him away. Many people simply get hurt if they can not have their way. Maybe Oscar was seeking a little power in the organization and to "run" it a certain way.

Never give up and always speak up!

TennisParent
06-02-2006, 04:15 PM
Check it! Check that email! Oscar's followers need to know that Oscar did not invent a thing. He simply created a method he felt worked for his own teaching style and for his students.

The thing about the USPTA and other organizations is misguided. The USPTA most likely did not "laugh" him away. Many people simply get hurt if they can not have their way. Maybe Oscar was seeking a little power in the organization and to "run" it a certain way.

Never give up and always speak up!
LOL, BB I meant I hate checking my snail mail because of all the negative political junk. :mad:

Bungalo Bill
06-02-2006, 04:17 PM
LOL, BB I meant I hate checking my snail mail because of all the negative political junk. :mad:

Okay, you scared me for a moment. :cool:

Ten_is
02-26-2007, 02:48 PM
Here's the funny thing..

If you were to ask most pros or touring pros about their technique,.. they won't be able to tell you how they do it. They would just say i hit over my shoulder on forehands even though they are doing the 'windshield wiper' motion. They won't tell you.. i keep my grip loose just before impact, make sure the buttcap drives towards the ball foreward.. pulling and pressing against the ball.

But that's what they do without realizing they're doing it. Why?

Lot's of practice, lots of games, lots of mistakes.
Just get out there and hit the ball as many times as you can. Move your feet. Get to the ball early,.. rotate your upper body before every shot (if possible). It's all very simple really.. you know what's right and what's wrong, you filter out what doesn't work for you through experience, you practice and make your own adjustments / amendments. Enjoy the game, stay competitive and don't take anything too seriously. :)

If you're passionate and you love the game,..

sureshs
02-27-2007, 09:30 AM
http://www.tennislife.com/06-editorial/03-2006/03-06-dinofer.html

Myth Busters: Racket Back
Part one of a three-part series
By Joe Dinoffer
Remember the tennis teacher tease: “Racket back. Bend your knees. That’ll be twenty dollars, please.”?

One tennis myth started with the first instruction in this joke—“Racket back,” which has probably been shouted countless times across more tennis nets than strawberries sold throughout Wimbledon’s history. While this instruction can be helpful in some situations, in others it has caused numerous stroke limitations in literally millions of tennis players.

In the past two decades, tennis has evolved well past the straight take-back backswing that became the signature styles of tennis champions Chris Evert and Jimmy Connors. With the advent of modern racket technology, the entire game has become modernized as well—even “powerized.”

However, power alone doesn’t build a winning game. It must be used in tandem with control. And, at least on groundstrokes, topspin is the glue that allows power and control to adhere and be part of the same tennis arsenal.

We all know that gravity is the main force that brings tennis balls back to the ground. Topspin creates an effect that actually assists gravity. When a tennis ball rotates through the air with forward spin or topspin, high air pressure is created above the ball and low air pressure beneath it. The result is that the ball is pushed downward by the higher pressure above it. This is why topspin lobs and loopers hit with heavy topspin can appear as though they will fly beyond the baseline, but then end up mysteriously dipping at the last moment to land inside the court.

Why so much about power and topspin alongside the myth buster that “Racket back” may not be ideal instruction? Simple. To generate effective power and topspin on groundstrokes, and contrary to the popular instruction to take your racket back, you do not want to take your racket back and have it pause in the back position waiting to start the forward swing (see photo 1).

Here are the facts behind this myth-busting argument:
Racket momentum—It’s commonly understood that the longer the swing, the more racket head speed can be generated to create more ball speed, i.e., more power. Therefore, you do not want to take your racket back early and have it pause in the back position. The better choice is a loop backswing. Think of the shape of the letter C and you will start to get the picture.

Low-to-high swing—To create topspin, a “brushing up” low-to-high swing is needed. The loop backswing previously described makes topspin possible.

Running is hard—Running with your racket back, as in photo 1, is much harder than if your racket is comfortably set at your side.

What’s the alternative to the instruction “Racket back”? How about “Racket set” (see photo 2)? The difference between the two is where the pause takes place. In taking your racket back, you pause with your racket all the way back to its farthest backswing position. When you set your racket, you have a slight pause after a partial backswing, basically just far enough so your racket points straight to the side, approximately parallel to the net. Then, from there, when it’s time to start your letter C loop swing, you end up with the racket in continuous motion until you strike the ball. Remember that you will still end up with a similar backswing to what you are accustomed, it’s just that you pause at a different time in the swing.

Here are three reasons why “Racket set” may be a better instructional guideline for tennis technique.
You’ll move better—Setting your racket effectively turns your hips and shoulders in the direction you have to move, making running to the ball faster and more efficient.

Timing is easy—The option to setting the racket in the partial backswing position as shown in photo 2 is to take the entire loop swing all at one time. Whereas timing the full swing to strike incoming balls of different speeds would be relatively difficult, timing solid contact after setting the racket in a partial backswing is easier.

It works on volleys—Players who memorize the instruction “Racket back” often make the mistake of taking their racket fully back on their volleys as well as their groundstrokes. On the other hand, “Racket set” works on volleys as well as groundstrokes, in that the racket is presented to face the incoming ball, albeit the grip and, therefore, the racket angle may be different (slightly closed or perpendicular to the court on groundstrokes and slightly open on volleys).

Want to master the modern, “powerized” game? Try “setting” your racket and pausing in this modified position rather than taking your racket all the way back and pausing, and then encountering an additional set of problems that could have easily been avoided.

sureshs
02-27-2007, 09:59 AM
http://www.hawaii.rr.com/leisure/reviews/kelvin_miyahira/2006-01_drhspeed.htm

Traditional tennis teaching suggests that groundstroke preparation should be done early. While that may be true, top pros not only prepare early but more importantly, they prepare fast. In studying tapes of the top pros, one can clearly see that while they see the ball coming at them, their racquet preparation usually starts just before the ball hits the ground. This gives them between 4/10ths of a second to 6/10ths of a second to take their backswing and still swing in time to hit the ball. This is not something taught, this is just way that great athletes do things.

In comparison, recreational players take 8/10ths of a second or more to prepare for a shot. They either lack the ability to prepare fast or idea that they should. More likely it is the latter. They may try to take the racquet back early but because it is too early, their swing lacks the rhythm and use of the stretch shorten cycle. Remember, muscles that are loaded or stretched fast, unload faster. Conversely, muscles that are loaded slowly will unload slower.

Also, a racquet taken back too early and must wait or pause creates a situation where the muscles are losing its elastic energy. This is no different than the person trying to do a vertical jump but inserts a pause between the bend of the knees and the ensuing jump. That person will not jump as high when he pauses.

But that is not the worst effect of the early yet slow racquet preparation. The worst effect is when playing against someone with power; the slow racquet preparation will cause the player to be late on the hit. This is the more obvious flaw of the recreational player. If this is your problem, try working on a faster racquet preparation.

tlm
02-27-2007, 02:18 PM
Very good points made by sureshs.

papa
02-27-2007, 04:41 PM
Mercy.

Not only has this issue(s) been discussed numerous times, nothing seems to ever change - those that follow Oscar seem to believe in him but I suspect, as I always have, that they are relatively low ranked players looking for quick fixes to rather complicated problems. I think it was BB who once said that to be a good player you have to study the sport - every aspect of it. There aren't too many "quick fixes" to anything in life.

I've been around these boards for years and if someone could point out "any" advice offered by BB that is wrong, I'd like to see it. Some of you people are nuts, you have people like BB, Yandell, MK and Dave Smith offering "free" advice and you make comments that are absolutely crazy.

Incidently, there is a post relating to Dave Smith's book "Tennis Mastery" just a few away from this that has received about 15 times fewer hits. I guess when the advice is right on the money, nobody wants to talk about it - strange.

Oscar is about the same age as me with a similiar educational background. I can only assume (I have talked with him and he doesn't live far from me) that all the "puffing up" is just a way to sell things. I would agree with BB that a great deal of his stuff is ok, not remarkable but ok. If you want remarkable stuff, read Dave Smith's book or any number of experts who post here.

Bungalo Bill
02-27-2007, 07:04 PM
But that's what they do without realizing they're doing it. Why?

Lot's of practice, lots of games, lots of mistakes.
Just get out there and hit the ball as many times as you can. Move your feet. Get to the ball early,.. rotate your upper body before every shot (if possible). It's all very simple really.. you know what's right and what's wrong, you filter out what doesn't work for you through experience, you practice and make your own adjustments / amendments. Enjoy the game, stay competitive and don't take anything too seriously. :)

I haven't read this thread in a long time. But when this was brought up again, this post caught my eye.

This is a very misguided throw everyone out with the bath water post.

Tell me one pro on the professional that has not had extensive training, extensive coaching, or extensive constructive criticism. Players at this level run so many damn drills it would make your head spin. Do you thnk professional football players play a game and then go home waiting for the next weekend game? Don't they run timing plays over and over again? Don't they study film? Don't they workout? Don't they run drills? Why is tennis different?

Listening to this person will breed mediocrity because at some point in time, talent only takes you so far. From then on good coaching takes over to help build the player. This means drills, salads, running, footwork drills, technical training, mental training, and RACQUET PREPARATION DRILLS!!! These just happen at a different level and with a different emphasis. They already know how change their grip, turn their shoulders, etc...

What is missing in this entire thread is a good dose of common sense. Why would anyone think that a tennis player that aspires to become a top professional can go all the way without solid technical, mental, emotional, spiritual, and physical training?

Is tennis the only sport in the world that one can make it to the top by just grabbing a racquet and hitting a ton of balls? Doesn't this sound a bit stupid? Does the word repitition mean pro tour? What if all you are doing ball after ball is engraining a weakness in your stroke only to be uncovered at a higher level?

The pros have excellent racquet preparation and other technical skills. If you watch the film that John Yandell has on his site you will see how far in advanced they are prepared to hit the next ball. How do you think they developed those skills?

If you want to be a 3.5 player the rest of your life then do what this guy says. Go get a racquet and start clubbing.

ipodtennispro
02-27-2007, 10:51 PM
Here's the funny thing.

If you were to ask most pros or touring pros about their technique,.. they won't be able to tell you how they do it. They would just say i hit over my s). Ioy the game, stay competitive and don't take anything too seriously. :)

If you're passionate and you love the game,..



I just read Mike Agassi's book. I also agree with about 95% of what he says.

Like comparing apples and oranges, there is “Pro” tennis and then there is “College” tennis and then the USTA levels. If you want extensive training, extensive coaching, please watch the following videos. They are from last weeks Boys and Girls 18’s National Open held in Hawaii. Then, for a moment, imagine if you can be as good as they are, they have paid a hefty price for all their coaching and training to get this point in their careers. How good do you think they are?

http://iws.punahou.edu/user/lcouillard/2007/02/usta_national_open_rd_of_16s_q.html

http://iws.punahou.edu/user/lcouillard/Girls_Boys_Highlights.mov

http://iws.punahou.edu/user/lcouillard/More_early_boys%20rounds.mov


www.ipodtennispros.com

travlerajm
02-28-2007, 01:02 AM
Exactly. I agree with the pulling to the ball feeling. No problems there. What I have a problem with is that he says the moment the racket touches the ball you need to swing the entire racket and arm immediately to the left. That somehow a motion to the left rather than forward through the ball is the key to pro strokes.

If you are a member of TennisOne you can see the article here:
http://www.tennisone.com/club/lessons/wegner/fh/weg_fh.php

One should be wary of anyone advising that the followthrough after contact is the key to pro strokes.

One of the golden rules of tennis is that what happens before contact matters more than what happens after.

Anyway, I agree with JC on this one.

papa
03-01-2007, 05:46 AM
One should be wary of anyone advising that the followthrough after contact is the key to pro strokes.

One of the golden rules of tennis is that what happens before contact matters more than what happens after.

Anyway, I agree with JC on this one.

Maybe, but one of the keys to "developing" good strokes is to keep reminding the player of the finish/followthrough position. So, I would not buy into the concept of what "happens before contact mattens more than what happens after" - wouldn't you agree that they are tied together?

Mike Cottrill
03-01-2007, 07:03 AM
I just read Mike Agassi's book. I also agree with about 95% of what he says.

Like comparing apples and oranges, there is “Pro” tennis and then there is “College” tennis and then the USTA levels. If you want extensive training, extensive coaching, please watch the following videos. They are from last weeks Boys and Girls 18’s National Open held in Hawaii. Then, for a moment, imagine if you can be as good as they are, they have paid a hefty price for all their coaching and training to get this point in their careers. How good do you think they are?

http://iws.punahou.edu/user/lcouillard/2007/02/usta_national_open_rd_of_16s_q.html

http://iws.punahou.edu/user/lcouillard/Girls_Boys_Highlights.mov

http://iws.punahou.edu/user/lcouillard/More_early_boys%20rounds.mov


www.ipodtennispros.com (http://www.ipodtennispros.com)

I only watched the first one. The girl with two fisted on both wings stuck out., but she needs to stop that squeeelllling

tennisplayer
03-01-2007, 11:13 AM
Maybe, but one of the keys to "developing" good strokes is to keep reminding the player of the finish/followthrough position. So, I would not buy into the concept of what "happens before contact mattens more than what happens after" - wouldn't you agree that they are tied together?

I now agree with this, although I did not before. This is a very powerful teaching technique. After all, as Wegner himself has said, he didn't invent any tennis techniques, he only makes teaching of pro techniques easier and more available to laymen.

What he has said is that if one concentrates on the "right" aspect of the game, the other aspects will take care of themselves. On the other hand, if one keeps a whole bunch of technical tips in one's head and tries to execute them while playing, the most likely outcome will be a poorly executed stroke. What I got from reading his book is that there are fundamentally two "right" things to keep in mind: how to address the ball with the racquet, and how to finish. To me, this sounds like a mental picture of the stroke one wants to execute. This is a powerful concept, akin to the the visualization method formulated by John Yandell. Indeed, life is simplified a lot if this is the only thing one has to "think" of while actually playing!

Of course, this does not obviate the need for training and other practice exercises - even Wegner's book has a ton of practice routines in it. But I have found this concept to be very powerful, and it has helped me improve quite a bit.

JCo872
03-01-2007, 02:33 PM
I now agree with this, although I did not before. This is a very powerful teaching technique. After all, as Wegner himself has said, he didn't invent any tennis techniques, he only makes teaching of pro techniques easier and more available to laymen.

What he has said is that if one concentrates on the "right" aspect of the game, the other aspects will take care of themselves. On the other hand, if one keeps a whole bunch of technical tips in one's head and tries to execute them while playing, the most likely outcome will be a poorly executed stroke. What I got from reading his book is that there are fundamentally two "right" things to keep in mind: how to address the ball with the racquet, and how to finish. To me, this sounds like a mental picture of the stroke one wants to execute. This is a powerful concept, akin to the the visualization method formulated by John Yandell. Indeed, life is simplified a lot if this is the only thing one has to "think" of while actually playing!

Of course, this does not obviate the need for training and other practice exercises - even Wegner's book has a ton of practice routines in it. But I have found this concept to be very powerful, and it has helped me improve quite a bit.

Great points. A lot of wisdom here with the mental pictures and the "right" things to keep in mind.

I also completely agree that what happens AFTER contact is as important as into contact. Here is a story that you may/may not think applies, but I think it does.

I was watching Jeanette Lee, the female pool player, give a demo on pool technique. She talked about how the followthrough was crucial. She said that it was "weird" that what happens well after the hit affects what happens during the hit, but that if she didn't follow through to a certain point every time, her stroke didn't work. I think this applies big time to tennis as well. I know when my two hander starts to go on me, I just get an image of the the racket well in front of my body with my left shoulder touching my chin. Then I start getting the drive back. This mental image gets me back on track every single time and I start to powerfully drive through the ball once again.

I'm glad tennisplayer brought up the topic of Yandell and "key images" because I think it is one of the most helpful techniques imagineable. If you are interested, here is the picture I have in my head for the two hander. It's the only mental picture I need.

tennisplayer
03-01-2007, 02:49 PM
Great points. A lot of wisdom here with the mental pictures and the "right" things to keep in mind.

I also completely agree that what happens AFTER contact is as important as into contact. Here is a story that you may/may not think applies, but I think it does.

I was watching Jeanette Lee, the female pool player, give a demo on pool technique. She talked about how the followthrough was crucial. She said that it was "weird" that what happens well after the hit affects what happens during the hit, but that if she didn't follow through to a certain point every time, her stroke didn't work. I think this applies big time to tennis as well. I know when my two hander starts to go on me, I just get an image of the the racket well in front of my body with my left shoulder touching my chin. Then I start getting the drive back. This mental image gets me back on track every single time and I start to powerfully drive through the ball once again.

That's really cool, Jeff! Imagine, such a similarity in so different a sport as pool! Must be something to do with the mind and concentration, I guess. If we don't think beyond the point of contact to the end, the mind probably disengages too early and affects the actual contact...

JCo872
03-01-2007, 03:03 PM
That's really cool, Jeff! Imagine, such a similarity in so different a sport as pool! Must be something to do with the mind and concentration, I guess. If we don't think beyond the point of contact to the end, the mind probably disengages too early and affects the actual contact...

Yes! Think about hammering a nail. Your mind focuses on the nail and then boom, the hammer gets there. You don't think about swinging the hammer. I think you are onto something.

I put up a page on my site describing what you talk about with key images. There is no doubt in my mind that a) key images are crucial and b) some images are a lot more important than others. Here it is!

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/secret/key_images.php

Jeff

JCo872
03-01-2007, 03:11 PM
One more thing about Oscar. I think his "big picture" ideas are great. If he could change his "across the body" to a "windshield wiper" motion, then I'd be happy. The modern forehand has a much fuller motion from contact to finish than he teaches. But then again Oscar didn't have the luxury of high speed video when he started. If you just watch tennis, it looks like they come straight across. But when you slow things down, the "fullness" of the wiper motion is striking. You can see Nalbandian's full "wiper" motion on my homepage now:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com

Just scroll down a bit and you'll see it on the right side.

If you go through the Fed video frame by frame, you will also see the full rainbow wiper motion. It's much more powerful than just coming across your body.

ubel
03-01-2007, 04:38 PM
Yes! Think about hammering a nail. Your mind focuses on the nail and then boom, the hammer gets there. You don't think about swinging the hammer. I think you are onto something.

I put up a page on my site describing what you talk about with key images. There is no doubt in my mind that a) key images are crucial and b) some images are a lot more important than others. Here it is!

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/secret/key_images.php

Jeff
I know this sounds really stupid, but I used to do this a lot when I played Counter-Strike (http://www.counter-strike.net/) competitively (http://www.caleague.com/). When I realized how much I sucked at the game, I finally sat down and started studying every single time I played and I'd spend hours just looking over every mistake I was making, as well as all the things I needed to improve such as better positioning and not walking into obvious traps. I started to realize so much of it was just common sense, but I also developed that idea of having a "key image". I would be able to visualize where people were most likely to come out on different maps, and at those times I'd be most alert to the key areas of danger. It evolved into a kind of percentage strategy where I'd be able to envision where they were most likely to come out, and just by thinking of that key image [of shooting them in the head at those spots] I was able to play at a far higher level than I had played before.

That's just my little tidbit on key images. As far as coming across the body/swinging to the left... I generally only see that when someone like Federer or Roddick wants to put outward sidespin on an inside-out forehand. If you hit this shot with a laid-back wrist, that spin is exactly what you create, but if you bend your wrist and hit to the left you'll hit the outside of the ball and it will obviously go to the left. Eitherway, swinging to the left won't create topspin. In order to create topspin, you have to swing the racquet with a slightly inclined/upward trajectory, which is exactly what happens when one uses the windshield wiper motion. :)

JCo872
03-01-2007, 04:49 PM
I know this sounds really stupid, but I used to do this a lot when I played Counter-Strike (http://www.counter-strike.net/) competitively (http://www.caleague.com/). When I realized how much I sucked at the game, I finally sat down and started studying every single time I played and I'd spend hours just looking over every mistake I was making, as well as all the things I needed to improve such as better positioning and not walking into obvious traps. I started to realize so much of it was just common sense, but I also developed that idea of having a "key image". I would be able to visualize where people were most likely to come out on different maps, and at those times I'd be most alert to the key areas of danger. It evolved into a kind of percentage strategy where I'd be able to envision where they were most likely to come out, and just by thinking of that key image [of shooting them in the head at those spots] I was able to play at a far higher level than I had played before.

That's just my little tidbit on key images. As far as coming across the body/swinging to the left... I generally only see that when someone like Federer or Roddick wants to put outward sidespin on an inside-out forehand. If you hit this shot with a laid-back wrist, that spin is exactly what you create, but if you bend your wrist and hit to the left you'll hit the outside of the ball and it will obviously go to the left. Eitherway, swinging to the left won't create topspin. In order to create topspin, you have to swing the racquet with a slightly inclined/upward trajectory, which is exactly what happens when one uses the windshield wiper motion. :)


Awesome post! Great example of using one key "target" position to get everything on track.

Video games are, in my opinion, a great example of how people learn motor movements and improve with practice. It's an amazing process.

waves2ya
03-01-2007, 06:43 PM
That's a lot of changes re: the Wegner concessions at your site JC - good stuff.

I'm reminded of a subset of Chinese internal martial arts - something called Hsing-I; "mind boxing". The circulum is complex but could be reduced (in a way that others, like Bagua or Tai-chi can't) to one idea - which is to forge a straight line to the opponent. No circles, no complexities - just finish it off.

Hsing-I asks that you be the goal - just get there, get it done. See the fininsh and then actualize it...

Wegner would like that.

JCo872
03-01-2007, 07:29 PM
That's a lot of changes re: the Wegner concessions at your site JC - good stuff.

I'm reminded of a subset of Chinese internal martial arts - something called Hsing-I; "mind boxing". The circulum is complex but could be reduced (in a way that others, like Bagua or Tai-chi can't) to one idea - which is to forge a straight line to the opponent. No circles, no complexities - just finish it off.

Hsing-I asks that you be the goal - just get there, get it done. See the fininsh and then actualize it...

Wegner would like that.

Very nice!