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JCo872
05-26-2006, 03:35 PM
This forum has posed a lot of great questions about modern forehand technique. I have learned a lot from the answers as well as from the questions posed here.

I have decided to give my answers to some of the best questions. Anyone can view the answer to the first question "What is topspin". I'll be adding and answering other questions for current subscribers of hi-techtennis.

Go here to see my answer to "How is Topspin Produced":
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/tenniswarehouse.cfm

Jeff

wyutani
05-26-2006, 03:37 PM
uhhh~ error??? :shock:

Bungalo Bill
05-26-2006, 03:51 PM
This forum has posed a lot of great questions about modern forehand technique. I have learned a lot from the answers as well as from the questions posed here.

I have decided to give my answers to some of the best questions. Anyone can view the answer to the first question "What is topspin". I'll be adding and answering other questions for current subscribers of hi-techtennis.

Go here to see my answer to "How is Topspin Produced":
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/tenniswarehouse.cfm

Jeff

Big time error, JC. Let's read it and get the argument (party) started! lolz

JCo872
05-26-2006, 03:59 PM
Uh, maybe I should have tested first. Try now and let's get started!

theartoftennis
05-26-2006, 05:20 PM
Amazing writing. Although it doesn't look like the very first video of Roger Federer is hitting "through" the ball. It looks like a very low-high swing that's going up, instead of through, the ball. The ball is also caught very far in front of his body.

JCo872
05-26-2006, 05:25 PM
Amazing writing. Although it doesn't look like the very first video of Roger Federer is hitting "through" the ball. It looks like a very low-high swing that's going up, instead of through, the ball. The ball is also caught very far in front of his body.

Thanks!

You are absolutely correct. If you contact the ball well in front like Federer does or Nadal you can lift up more and drive through less, but the end result is that the racket continues to face the net through the forward motion and lift. I think this is really the key to the modern forehand. To keep the racket facing the ball after contact, whether that means hitting through the ball, or lifting up. Either way the racket continues to face the net and ball, which provides maximum hold and spring off the racket. What Easitennis calls "clean contact". Federer looks on TV like he swings straight across his body, but you can see in this clip how he continues to face the net with his racket longer after the ball has left. This is the problem I mentioned in an earlier post about Oscar Wegner. He argues that Federer hits straight across the ball.

The incredibly forward contact point you mention is, I think, one of the big reasons why Federer (and Nadal) is almost impossible to copy. The other reason is the wrist release, but that's for another day and time...

Great observations about Federer and his contact point. And thanks for the comments.

Bungalo Bill
05-26-2006, 05:29 PM
Uh, maybe I should have tested first. Try now and let's get started!

Great stuff and all the proof in the world! Let's let the debate begin and then I can bring in more stuff.

JCo872
05-26-2006, 05:31 PM
Great stuff and all the proof in the world! Let's let the debate begin and then I can bring in more stuff.

Awesome. I think I may be shooting myself in the foot with this because it is material for the Tennisplayer.net article I'm writing, but it will be great to get more feedback to add and think about and work on.

Bungalo Bill
05-26-2006, 05:34 PM
Awesome. I think I may be shooting myself in the foot with this because it is material for the Tennisplayer.net article I'm writing, but it will be great to get more feedback to add and think about and work on.

Just write like mad, kowing John (the butcher editor :p ) he will make you write more! lol

wyutani
05-26-2006, 05:34 PM
nice one mate'. thanks for sharing. i like the bit part on how topspin is produced...;)

pham4313
05-26-2006, 08:38 PM
Jco...i see this double bend to absorb the ball is just like a head-on collision or a sling shot where the ball is reflected with its all momentum. After practicing this type of for hand for about a month, i feel i can hit the ball with very clean contact, less frame ball as when i hit whippy forehand before. When i gently release my wrist, once in a while i get some side spin which is kinda cool cuz it throws my opponent off rythm sometimes making him hit off his spot. With the laid back wrist in early take back, i feel i can hit the ball deeper toward the baseline with lots of control. The ball flies a little flatter also. With short balls, i can hit away with less effort and still push my opponent back. The ball seems to have that heavy topspin that propels even faster. When i hit whippy topspin before, the kind of topsin i have was the the sitting kicker that invites my opponent to crush it back. But now its a total different animal...thanks Jco...just side note, i find it similar on the one handed back hand, 90 degree bend eastern grip (fixed wrist) and from low to high linear outward path, you produce the same effect as the forehand. Very stable and reliable. Sometimes i release the wrist too but it is just natural.:)

andyroddick's mojo
05-26-2006, 09:28 PM
wow, this might be good, I'll try this out next time I hit. So let me get this straight...to produce topspin and pace, I should hit the ball in a low to high motion, but should keep my racket going forward after contact?

JCo872
05-26-2006, 09:50 PM
wow, this might be good, I'll try this out next time I hit. So let me get this straight...to produce topspin and pace, I should hit the ball in a low to high motion, but should keep my racket going forward after contact?

You got it. Try it out and let me know how it goes for you. I was pretty surprised when I learned this technique myself. I thought swinging fast into the ball was the key. But video shows that the pros kill the ball because they hold back through contact so that the ball and racket meet square on. It produces a major spring event which you can really see happening in the super high speed video that has been posted on this site. You can see the ball compress into the strings and shoot out.

JCo872
05-26-2006, 10:00 PM
Jco...i see this double bend to absorb the ball is just like a head-on collision or a sling shot where the ball is reflected with its all momentum. After practicing this type of for hand for about a month, i feel i can hit the ball with very clean contact, less frame ball as when i hit whippy forehand before. When i gently release my wrist, once in a while i get some side spin which is kinda cool cuz it throws my opponent off rythm sometimes making him hit off his spot. With the laid back wrist in early take back, i feel i can hit the ball deeper toward the baseline with lots of control. The ball flies a little flatter also. With short balls, i can hit away with less effort and still push my opponent back. The ball seems to have that heavy topspin that propels even faster. When i hit whippy topspin before, the kind of topsin i have was the the sitting kicker that invites my opponent to crush it back. But now its a total different animal...thanks Jco...just side note, i find it similar on the one handed back hand, 90 degree bend eastern grip (fixed wrist) and from low to high linear outward path, you produce the same effect as the forehand. Very stable and reliable. Sometimes i release the wrist too but it is just natural.:)

That's a nice way of putting it. A slingshot using the ball's own momentum. You've got it down exactly. That's how James Blake hits monster service returns with almost no takeback at all.

I think people find the idea of linear extension easier to grasp on the backhand. There is no windshield wiper finish to confuse people. I always thought that there had to be a similar dynamic on the forehand and backhand even though they look different.

When you say things like "I can hit away with less effort" it's a clear indication you've got this down. The great thing about modern technique is that you get a lot more bang for you buck. Less effort and more pop and pace and spin on the ball.

I am going to deal with the wrist release later, but it's a natural part of hitting like this.

Great post, Pham!

hyperwarrior
05-26-2006, 10:05 PM
This forum has posed a lot of great questions about modern forehand technique. I have learned a lot from the answers as well as from the questions posed here.

I have decided to give my answers to some of the best questions. Anyone can view the answer to the first question "What is topspin". I'll be adding and answering other questions for current subscribers of hi-techtennis.

Go here to see my answer to "How is Topspin Produced":
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/tenniswarehouse.cfm

Jeff

SeeinG this forehand is as beautiful as seeing a naked pretty woman...

JCo872
05-26-2006, 10:26 PM
SeeinG this forehand is as beautiful as seeing a naked pretty woman...

Well if I had to choose...

shindemac
05-27-2006, 08:24 AM
What about the knee bend for generating topspin? I find it adds a lot of topspin, and there's no way I can get this much no matter how fast I try to swing from low to high, or however steep I try. Combine the two, and there's a ridiculous amount of topspin.

Bungalo Bill
05-28-2006, 10:56 AM
First stage to hitting effective topspin; your foundation.

http://www.easitennis2.com/members/Graphics/DevelopingStability.jpg

Courtesy of EASI.

ShooterMcMarco
05-28-2006, 11:05 AM
Its asking me to type in my username and password.

Bungalo Bill
05-28-2006, 11:17 AM
Its asking me to type in my username and password.

Unless you are a member you cant sign in, I only posted the picture to show that the triangle formed by M's stance is a good foundation you can build a solid, penetrating, topspin shot from. It is the beginning, and without the foundation being time and time again solid, it is very difficult to hit topspin and maintain consistency. Your rotation should be within or near within this cylinder.

moxio
05-28-2006, 01:20 PM
Excellent ! thanks

theazneyes
05-28-2006, 03:39 PM
That looks like it would put alot of strain on your wrist though to keep it locked like that. I'm not argueing that it doesn't work, and the logic makes sense, but seeing the slow motion vids really makes me cringe at the wrist part.

There are many tips of brushing "over", and with your tip, that doesn't seem to apply. Basically keep the racquet face open to the net means you won't brush over the ball, but brush the front of the ball.

I'm not able to go out and actually concentrate on trying this for myself right now, but wouldn't keeping the racquet face open to the net near the contact point make the ball sail high and long?

Again I'm not argueing it doesn't work, because obviously the pros do this and they don't have sailing forehands, but when I picture myself doing this I vision myself hitting balls out the fence. This really makes me think.

JCo872
05-28-2006, 04:04 PM
That looks like it would put alot of strain on your wrist though to keep it locked like that. I'm not argueing that it doesn't work, and the logic makes sense, but seeing the slow motion vids really makes me cringe at the wrist part.

There are many tips of brushing "over", and with your tip, that doesn't seem to apply. Basically keep the racquet face open to the net means you won't brush over the ball, but brush the front of the ball.

I'm not able to go out and actually concentrate on trying this for myself right now, but wouldn't keeping the racquet face open to the net near the contact point make the ball sail high and long?

Again I'm not argueing it doesn't work, because obviously the pros do this and they don't have sailing forehands, but when I picture myself doing this I vision myself hitting balls out the fence. This really makes me think.

Good post. I'll provide more thoughts later. But the reason it's easy on the wrist is because of the solid support structure behind the hand and wrist. If you know about the double bend, you can see how the entire body is behind the ball on contact. For this reason, pro technique is actually much easier on the body. That's why you see recreational players with all kinds of elbow and wrist problems while the pros play for 4 to 5 hours a day and play without ever getting tennis elbow or wrist problems.

It's actually when people snap the wrist (not release, snap) through contact that stress is placed on the joints.

Great questions. I'll say more about topspin in a bit.

theazneyes
05-28-2006, 07:27 PM
I really wish I could go out and try this myself. But if I keep the racquet face, facing the net throughout contact, won't my follow through be basically a windshield wiper? And I always learned that the contact point is right next to your body, but most of the pros forehands show they hit the ball well out in front of them.

So what is the right way to hit a greater forehand on a short ball with no pace, like a clear winner shot? It's obviously harder to swipe the ball from low to high when it's hanging midair with no force coming toward you. Do you just do the same and go low to high because there is no force to "slingshot" back. Could you clarify how to hit a better forehand with this tactic in putaway shots? Thanks.

JCo872
06-08-2006, 10:17 AM
I really wish I could go out and try this myself. But if I keep the racquet face, facing the net throughout contact, won't my follow through be basically a windshield wiper? And I always learned that the contact point is right next to your body, but most of the pros forehands show they hit the ball well out in front of them.

So what is the right way to hit a greater forehand on a short ball with no pace, like a clear winner shot? It's obviously harder to swipe the ball from low to high when it's hanging midair with no force coming toward you. Do you just do the same and go low to high because there is no force to "slingshot" back. Could you clarify how to hit a better forehand with this tactic in putaway shots? Thanks.


Contact should be in line with your front foot and should be away from the body. Like you said, that's how the pros do it. Not too far away though. You want to be in the "double bend" on contact. But you certainly don't want the ball to be right next to your body. That would be disasterous.

To generate more pace you can take a bigger loop backswing and don't brush
up the back of the ball very much. Just drive right through it. You can
see some examples in my topspin article:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/topspin.cfm

mucat
06-08-2006, 12:11 PM
SeeinG this forehand is as beautiful as seeing a naked pretty woman...

Let me think....(visualization)....hmmm, no.