PDA

View Full Version : Vilas clay court record should be 70


BERDI4
05-29-2006, 04:15 PM
Vilas lost his streak against a banned string (spagetti). Therefore Vilas record should be about 70 clay court matches in a row as he won many more tournaments in a row after loosing against Nastase.

nn
05-29-2006, 04:25 PM
yes it will be if they remove his match against Nastase from record or call it non-offical match because of banned racquet or string used in that match..but why now when someone broke his record..it should be done way back..

splink779
05-29-2006, 04:25 PM
Thats gotta be painful for him. But I think he will feel better if Nadal breaks 70. That way he knows that no matter what, Nadal has the longer streak.

RiosTheGenius
05-29-2006, 04:29 PM
so the idea is to find every possible way we can bash Nadal's record.

mentalgameofmarat
05-29-2006, 04:36 PM
so the idea is to find every possible way we can bash Nadal's record.

Basically...

slice bh compliment
05-29-2006, 04:49 PM
No Nadal bashing. Seriously. All of this streak business is just another in a long line of European conspiracies against Argentina. You see, back in the 1970's, the powers that be were not thrilled with an Argy threatening Borg's place in the pantheon of clay court kings.

This was planned before Nadal's parents were even introduced. Long ago, the Priory of the Red Dirt was founded, and two leading European prophets (members of the Priory) foretold the young Spaniard's dominance. They wanted to make sure the stage was set for Rafa. Along with a realistic and attainable goal.

Nastase (a European) was just a pawn in all of this. He was instructed to keep the great Argentino to just 53 wins. This went all the way from the Caesars to Constantine, the Hapsburg dynasty, to Charlemagne... all the way down to Ceaucescu. Nastase (who did not even like Italian food) was playing with the spaghetti pattern against his own will. He did it for his freedom.

Now, in accordance with the prophecy, Nadal has finally overtaken Vilas. Who knows? Maybe he will get to 70 or 75 matches and surpass even the prophets' expectations. Well, probably not. Nostradamus and Orwell knew exactly what they were doing.

malakas
05-29-2006, 04:52 PM
LOL!!!:lol: :lol: :lol:

Skppr05
05-29-2006, 05:01 PM
they only banned that type of string AFTER he lost....that sucks

slice bh compliment
05-29-2006, 05:02 PM
they only banned that type of string AFTER he lost....that sucks

Yes, and it is all part of the conspiracy.

slice bh compliment
05-29-2006, 05:02 PM
they only banned that type of string AFTER he lost....that sucks

Can you imagine how deadly Vilas would have been if he had used one later on?

D-Bomb
05-29-2006, 05:04 PM
correct me if I'm wrong, but they made the spaghetti string illegal AFTER Vilas lost to Nastase. It was very soon after that they banned it.

Skppr05
05-29-2006, 05:04 PM
conspiracy to nadal's 54?

superman1
05-29-2006, 05:07 PM
Also, it took Nadal 2 years to get the streak. It took Vilas less than 2 months.

But the fact that Nadal beat Federer 3 times in the streak, saving 2 match points in one match, makes it all equal.

Gilgamesh
05-29-2006, 05:10 PM
I knew someone would bring this up today...

slice bh compliment
05-29-2006, 05:11 PM
Also, it took Nadal 2 years to get the streak. It took Vilas less than 2 months....

Good point. But I believe it was more like a whole season. Anyway, during that two months, Vilas was dating my aunt. He'd beat her 2 and love in practice all the time and would report it to the ATP. Evidently, they weren't as organized back then.

FedererUberAlles
05-29-2006, 06:13 PM
Nope, that's not how it works. That would be totally ex-post-facto if it worked like that.

ma2t
05-29-2006, 06:24 PM
On ESPN2 today, Vilas was interviewed and said that the "spaghetti stringing" was banned before his match with Nastase but that the ban didn't take effect immediately and so Nastase was allowed to use it one more time. Also, he said he completed his streak in about 1.5 months compared to Nadal's approximately two years. They asked him if he (Vilas) could beat Nadal if they had played each other when both were at their prime and he evaded the question.

jackson vile
05-29-2006, 08:35 PM
so the idea is to find every possible way we can bash Nadal's record.


It is just stupid peoples egos, he is old and out of tennis but still wants to be the man. Perhaps Nadal can win 71, but then I am sure he or someone else will come up with another excuse ie The rackets are better, players easier, food, training ect more advanced.


You see a loser will always find and excuse.

HollerOne5
05-29-2006, 09:09 PM
For one thing, its impossible to win that many matches in a row on clay in 2 months....I mean, thats like playing everyday, and assuming you entered a clay tournament every week, you'd have to play 7 matches a tournament (which is only in grand slams). Now, I don't know how it was back then, but that would be impossible today.

Plus, doesn't anyone else think its more impressive to have a streak that lasts 2 years vs. 2 months, so I don't know what Vilas is talking about. Maintaining an unbeatable level on clay over the course of time (which involves play on all diff surfaces, an off season, and even a serious injury for Nadal) and to come back and still be dominant, I'm sorry but that is more impressive than a hot streak one guy had during a summer. Not included the tennis now is much more strenuous and there is much more depth on the ATP.

lucky leprechaun
05-29-2006, 10:31 PM
Yeah I agree nadal's longer stretch for the streak is more impressive considering you have lots of time to get hot and cool down, but you have to keep winning. Vilas did get screwed by the spaghetti racquet though mainly because someone got away with using it against him before the fact.

357sig
05-29-2006, 10:36 PM
Man you kids watch way to much t.v.

urban
05-29-2006, 11:11 PM
I still doubt Vilas' record. He won 50 matches in a row, but there were some on hard court - following the ATPs own webside, which is blocked now for good reasons. Vilas lost after RG and before Wimbledon in 1977 on clay. Vilas is right, that these records spanning over some years are not important. OK, Borg's f Wimbies or Lendl's 8 USO finals are impressive streaks, but all that newly found records are crap. Vilas didn't even know about this record.

Count Grishnackh
05-30-2006, 05:08 AM
Vilas lost his streak against a banned string (spagetti). Therefore Vilas record should be about 70 clay court matches in a row as he won many more tournaments in a row after loosing against Nastase.

Shoulda coulda. Now because Nadal breaks the record we have to put it further to 63 or 70? Why not make it 100 if he breaks 70. Even when Nadal accomplishes something people or Fed fans have to downplay it. One word. Jealous.

theace21
05-30-2006, 06:19 AM
correct me if I'm wrong, but they made the spaghetti string illegal AFTER Vilas lost to Nastase. It was very soon after that they banned it.
That is the quote from Vilas over the weekend...

ballplayer
06-01-2006, 05:18 PM
I still doubt Vilas' record. He won 50 matches in a row, but there were some on hard court - following the ATPs own webside, which is blocked now for good reasons. Vilas lost after RG and before Wimbledon in 1977 on clay. Vilas is right, that these records spanning over some years are not important. OK, Borg's f Wimbies or Lendl's 8 USO finals are impressive streaks, but all that newly found records are crap. Vilas didn't even know about this record.
It is really odd: one can finally once again open the ATP 'player activity' page with the results from 1968 onwards. I'm fairly certain that didn't work for a while? Maybe I'm wrong and it's just my louzy memory.

It is a bit puzzling, this number 53. Everyone is so sure of it: the ATP, the Hall of Fame site, the statisticans, and the press & everyone else repeats what they say. I'm not saying I'm sure that the number is incorrect but during all the crazy talk about the record over the last months, when I asked others who spoke of Vilas' record, to name the events which he won, I got no answer, except: 'Well the ATP says it is so, then it must be true'. But as you say, the info on the ATP site doesn't add up. Now, there seem to be a lot of people on this board who their tennis history well, so maybe someone here can help me out.

Here's a chronological list of No. of matches won per tournament (Davis Cup including) that I know of so far [it corresponds with the ATP records]:

5 - Australian Open - Grass - January - Loss in the final to Roscoe Tanner
4 - Baltimore - Carpet - January - Loss in the final to Brian Gottfried
5 - Springfield - Carpet - February - Won
2 - Ocean City - Hard - February - Loss in the 3rd round to Robert Lutz
5 - Palm Springs - Hard - February - Loss in the final to Brian Gottfried
3 - Memphis - Carpet - February - Loss in the quarters to Mark Cox
4 - Johannesburg - Hard - March - Final against Bjorn Borg not played?
2 - Davis Cup vs Chile - Clay - March
4 - Nice - Clay - March - Loss in the final to Bjorn Borg
2 - Monte Carlo WCT - April - Loss in the semi's to Borg
4 - Buenos Aires [River Plate] - Clay - April - Won
4 - Virginia Beach - Hard - April - Won
2 - Davis Cup vs USA - Clay - May
3 - Hamburg - Clay - May - Loss in the quarters to Mottram
1 - Rome - Clay - May - Loss in the 2nd round to Franulovic
7 - Roland Garros - Clay - May - Won
0 - Nottingham - Grass - June - 1st round loss to Tim Gullikson
1 - Queens Club - Grass - June - 2nd round loss to Ross Case
2 - Wimbledon - Grass - June - 3rd round loss to Billy Martin
5 - Kitzbuhel - Clay - July - Won
6 - Washington - Clay? - July - Won
6 - Louisville - Hard - July - Won
5 - South Orange - Hard - August - Won
6 - Columbus - Hard - August - Won
7 - US Open - Clay - August - Won
2 - Davis Cup vs Australia - Clay - September
5 - Paris - Clay - September - Won
4 - Aix en Provence - Clay - September - Vilas retiring in the final against Nastase
6 - Tehran - Clay - October - Won
5 - Bogota - Clay - November - Won
5 - Santiago - Clay - November - Won
5 - Buenos Aires - Clay - November - Won
5 - Johannesburg WCT - Hard - December - Won

Ok, I know it can't be the complete list. Maybe someone can help me fill in the missing bits? Few questions that puzzle me:

1) The Hall of Fame site mentions Vilas won 17 of 33 tournaments [winning 145 matches against 14 losses]. But my list only has 16 events won out of 30[winning 132 matches against 14 losses].
So there's a discrepancy of 1 out of 3 tournaments won [winning 16 matches against 0 losses]. That makes no sense.

2) The Hall of Fame site doesn't speak of his clay streak but it does mention his open-era winning record on different surfaces. But they say that it is 50 (while the ATP speak of 46; even Vilas is quoted by Reuters & ESPN: "I also have won 46 matches in succession on any surface".)

Well, my list does correspond with a 46 match streak covering: Kitzbuhel, Washington, Louisville, South Orange, Columbus, US Open, 2 Davis Cup matches vs AUS, Paris and Aix en Provence.

So who is right? Hall of Fame or the ATP? And if the Hall of Fame is right, then there must indeed be a 17th event won by him in that period [4 extra matches won would bring the number up to 50]. But which event was it?

3) As for the clay record of 53 matches, all in all my list only adds up to a 36 match streak on clay at: Roland Garros, Kitzbuhel, Washington, US Open, 2 DC matches vs Australia, Paris, Aix en Provence.

I think I can assume that it's the 17 matches won in Louisville, South Orange, Columbus which are included in the record. But the ATP site says they were on hardcourt. And if the ATP mistakingly list the surface of these 3 events as hardcourt, why don't they correct it?

So, somehow it looks a bit odd to me.

couch
06-01-2006, 05:27 PM
It is really odd: one can finally once again open the ATP 'player activity' page with the results from 1968 onwards. I'm fairly certain that didn't work for a while? Maybe I'm wrong and it's just my louzy memory.

It is a bit puzzling, this number 53. Everyone is so sure of it: the ATP, the Hall of Fame site, the statisticans, and the press & everyone else repeats what they say. I'm not saying I'm sure that the number is incorrect but during all the crazy talk about the record over the last months, when I asked others who spoke of Vilas' record, to name the events which he won, I got no answer, except: 'Well the ATP says it is so, then it must be true'. But as you say, the info on the ATP site doesn't add up. Now, there seem to be a lot of people on this board who their tennis history well, so maybe someone here can help me out.

Here's a chronological list of No. of matches won per tournament (Davis Cup including) that I know of so far [it corresponds with the ATP records]:

5 - Australian Open - Grass - January - Loss in the final to Roscoe Tanner
4 - Baltimore - Carpet - January - Loss in the final to Brian Gottfried
5 - Springfield - Carpet - February - Won
2 - Ocean City - Hard - February - Loss in the 3rd round to Robert Lutz
5 - Palm Springs - Hard - February - Loss in the final to Brian Gottfried
3 - Memphis - Carpet - February - Loss in the quarters to Mark Cox
4 - Johannesburg - Hard - March - Final against Bjorn Borg not played?
2 - Davis Cup vs Chile - Clay - March
4 - Nice - Clay - March - Loss in the final to Bjorn Borg
2 - Monte Carlo WCT - April - Loss in the semi's to Borg
4 - Buenos Aires [River Plate] - Clay - April - Won
4 - Virginia Beach - Hard - April - Won
2 - Davis Cup vs USA - Clay - May
3 - Hamburg - Clay - May - Loss in the quarters to Mottram
1 - Rome - Clay - May - Loss in the 2nd round to Franulovic
7 - Roland Garros - Clay - May - Won
0 - Nottingham - Grass - June - 1st round loss to Tim Gullikson
1 - Queens Club - Grass - June - 2nd round loss to Ross Case
2 - Wimbledon - Grass - June - 3rd round loss to Billy Martin
5 - Kitzbuhel - Clay - July - Won
6 - Washington - Clay? - July - Won
6 - Louisville - Hard - July - Won
5 - South Orange - Hard - August - Won
6 - Columbus - Hard - August - Won
7 - US Open - Clay - August - Won
2 - Davis Cup vs Australia - Clay - September
5 - Paris - Clay - September - Won
4 - Aix en Provence - Clay - September - Vilas retiring in the final against Nastase
6 - Tehran - Clay - October - Won
5 - Bogota - Clay - November - Won
5 - Santiago - Clay - November - Won
5 - Buenos Aires - Clay - November - Won
5 - Johannesburg WCT - Hard - December - Won

Ok, I know it can't be the complete list. Maybe someone can help me fill in the missing bits? Few questions that puzzle me:

1) The Hall of Fame site mentions Vilas won 17 of 33 tournaments [winning 145 matches against 14 losses]. But my list only has 16 events won out of 30[winning 132 matches against 14 losses].
So there's a discrepancy of 1 out of 3 tournaments won [winning 16 matches against 0 losses]. That makes no sense.

2) The Hall of Fame site doesn't speak of his clay streak but it does mention his open-era winning record on different surfaces. But they say that it is 50 (while the ATP speak of 46; even Vilas is quoted by Reuters & ESPN: "I also have won 46 matches in succession on any surface".)

Well, my list does correspond with a 46 match streak covering: Kitzbuhel, Washington, Louisville, South Orange, Columbus, US Open, 2 Davis Cup matches vs AUS, Paris and Aix en Provence.

So who is right? Hall of Fame or the ATP? And if the Hall of Fame is right, then there must indeed be a 17th event won by him in that period [4 extra matches won would bring the number up to 50]. But which event was it?

3) As for the clay record of 53 matches, all in all my list only adds up to a 36 match streak on clay at: Roland Garros, Kitzbuhel, Washington, US Open, 2 DC matches vs Australia, Paris, Aix en Provence.

I think I can assume that it's the 17 matches won in Louisville, South Orange, Columbus which are included in the record. But the ATP site says they were on hardcourt. And if the ATP mistakingly list the surface of these 3 events as hardcourt, why don't they correct it?

So, somehow it looks a bit odd to me.

I would assume the matches in Louisville were at the Louisville Tennis Center across from the Louisville Zoo. They used to have a great tournament there and the courts are definitely clay courts. Not the best clay courts anymore but they are definitely clay courts. At one point, I think they were one of only a few public clay courts or something in the U.S.

urban
06-01-2006, 11:57 PM
Although the ATP side has its merits - its made by Greg Sharko - it has its errors, especially in the late 60s and 70s. One problem is the surface definition, maybe Vilas' wins in the US came on har tru, which is more a clay than a hard court, but then the ATP should correct its side. The bigger probem is the omission of many tournaments in the early open era, which were not ITF sanctioned (the real ATP ,a players union, didn't even exist, came to pominence only in 1973). The ATP doesn't even count the very first open event, at Bournemouth in April 1968. For the time of 68-71 the records are very, very fragmented. Laver won many more titles in that span, than the 39, the ATP gives him credit for. In the mid 70s, the problem is, that many then important, big money invitational events now are regarded as exhibitions. Vilas won one 16 men event in summer 1977, which would- in the mind of Bud Collins for example - would better his clay record to 57. On the other side, Borg is credited by the ATP for winning twice or 3 times an event called the Pepsi Grand Slam. That was played by only 4 players. In short, the ATP side for that period is higly inconsistent, but all documented tennis records are faulty. The one-eyed under the blind is the book 'Total Tennis' by Bud Collins. The best record documentations were the series of annual 'World of Tennis' edited by John Barrett from 1968 to 2002.

ballplayer
06-02-2006, 01:49 AM
I would assume the matches in Louisville were at the Louisville Tennis Center across from the Louisville Zoo. They used to have a great tournament there and the courts are definitely clay courts. Not the best clay courts anymore but they are definitely clay courts. At one point, I think they were one of only a few public clay courts or something in the U.S.Interesting. Thanks for this info.

Vilas won one 16 men event in summer 1977, which would- in the mind of Bud Collins for example - would better his clay record to 57.I don't have his book 'Total Tennis' (yet) but in his articles Bud Collins never seems to doubt the number is at least 53. So I would tend to believe it. I know, these are just minor things but still curious that the ATP didn't think of correcting such errors on their site, especially in a time when the record -of which the ATP publicly make such a big deal - was under attack by Nadal.

So Bud Collins and the The Hall of Fame would then agree on Vilas winning 17 events that year. I think HoF do have a wealth of reference material at their disposal, though some of it will probably be conficting. It does still puzzle me how they can claim that in 1977 Vilas has a win/loss record in events of 17/16 [with a match win/loss record of 145/14]. Compared to the ATP records: a win/loss record in events of 16/14 [with a match win/loss record of 132/14].

So according to HoF he would have played 3 extra events of which only 1 won and durind which he won 13 matches against 0 losses. That doesn't make much sense to me. It's probably wrong of me to compare both in this way and in the end it maybe doesn't matter that much but I do find these things curious.

The best record documentations were the series of annual 'World of Tennis' edited by John Barrett from 1968 to 2002.Thanks, I'll make a note of that.

urban
06-02-2006, 05:58 AM
Ball player, these hall of fame articles online are by made by Bud Collins from his 'encyclopedia of tennis', the forerunner of Total tennis, which is effectively the 3rd edition. There is much confusion over the records in early open tennis, the stats section of 'Total tennis' is incomplete, too. Someone of the ATP should go to the Wimbledon or Roland Garros libraries, pick up these annuals or old magazines like 'World Tennis' and complete the records. I myself bought recently some old 'Tennis magazines' on the internet, but they had as good as no pro records for the years. The only thing i found out, was, that Roy Emerson in fact beat Pancho Gonzales in 1970 in Los Angeles, contrary to the statements, which are often cited on the internet.

Alejandro D
06-02-2006, 06:13 AM
You see a loser will always find and excuse.
Hey, you can't be serious. Vilas is definitely not a loser.

Moose Malloy
06-02-2006, 01:08 PM
It is really odd: one can finally once again open the ATP 'player activity' page with the results from 1968 onwards. I'm fairly certain that didn't work for a while? Maybe I'm wrong and it's just my louzy memory.


I can't seem to get player activity from before 1984 at the site. Can you tell me how you were able to?
please post the link with Vilas' activity from '77.
thanks!

ballplayer
06-05-2006, 03:07 PM
Ball player, these hall of fame articles online are by made by Bud Collins from his 'encyclopedia of tennis', the forerunner of Total tennis, which is effectively the 3rd edition. There is much confusion over the records in early open tennis, the stats section of 'Total tennis' is incomplete, too. Someone of the ATP should go to the Wimbledon or Roland Garros libraries, pick up these annuals or old magazines like 'World Tennis' and complete the records. I myself bought recently some old 'Tennis magazines' on the internet, but they had as good as no pro records for the years. The only thing i found out, was, that Roy Emerson in fact beat Pancho Gonzales in 1970 in Los Angeles, contrary to the statements, which are often cited on the internet.See, I didn't know that about the hall of fame articles. Well, I know littlle, really, but I do find the history of the game very interesting. It is a bit dissapointing that the ATP shows so little inclination to provide the interested with correct information, at least dating back to the beginning of the open era. I think as it is there already are too many sites which (dubiously) claim to contain accurate information. The ATP site would perhaps be the first place where people turn to for such data. You'd think it would be a natural thing for a governing body to want to proudly showcase their old major & lesser greats and their achievements or at least make sure that their data be complete & accurate.

I can't seem to get player activity from before 1984 at the site. Can you tell me how you were able to?
please post the link with Vilas' activity from '77.
thanks!Sure, if you go to a players' activity page, instead of selecting a specific year, you need to select 'All Years'. For Vilas: http://www.atptennis.com/en/players/playerprofiles/playeractivity/default.asp?year=%25&query=Singles&player=V028&x=10&y=5