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need2paint
06-03-2006, 03:00 PM
I don't understand how the brackets work in tennis.

Hypothetically, if all 32 seeded players make it to the 3rd round, number 1 should play against number 32 and 16 play against 17?

If the top 8 seeds make it to the quarters, then 1 should play 8, 2 should play 7, 3 should play 6, etc...

But it doesn't appear to work that way.

At the French Open 3rd round, women's side, it was 15 vs 21, 31 vs 6, and 32 vs an unseeded player. Since 32 (Dulko) and 1 (Mauresmo) both made the 3rd round, it would make sense for them to face each other.

How does this work?

CJN
06-03-2006, 04:15 PM
I'm not completely sure about the accuracy of this, but here is my understanding of the way it works.

Each of the top four seeds is placed in a quarter so that if they all make it through 1 plays 4 and 2 plays 3. Then the rest of the players are randomly 'drawn' and placed in the quarters in such a way that the seeds don't play each other in the first round and high seeds don't face each other at least until quarters.

The process goes something like that, I think. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

pswami
06-03-2006, 04:19 PM
Something like that...that's why Federer (1) is in the same half as Nalbandian (3). They just make sure that (1) and (2) are in different halves, and the top four are each in a separate quarter.

need2paint
06-03-2006, 05:20 PM
Thanks for the responses.

I don't think the system makes sense though. If the draws are random, it creates a situation where the #1 seed could face a tougher opponent than the #5 seed in the same round.

whistleway
06-03-2006, 05:21 PM
Top seed in the top half and the bottom seed in the bottom half. everything else is drawn infront of audience. First 3 and 4 seeds are placed randomly in either the top half or the bottom half. Then they draw 4 more seeds and place them randomly in those 4 quaters etc..

need2paint
06-03-2006, 05:29 PM
Here's an example fron the women's 3rd round:

Francesca Schiavone ITA (9) 4 6 9
Flavia Pennetta ITA (17) 6 1 7

Ana Ivanovic SCG (19) 2 3
Anastasia Myskina RUS (10) 6 6

If you consider that Schiavone is ranked higher than Myskina, the Myskina should have played a tougher opponent. Instead, Myskina faced a lower ranked opponent.

need2paint
06-03-2006, 05:37 PM
Top seed in the top half and the bottom seed in the bottom half. everything else is drawn infront of audience. First 3 and 4 seeds are placed randomly in either the top half or the bottom half. Then they draw 4 more seeds and place them randomly in those 4 quaters etc..

That doesn't sound like a good way to do it. Let say I'm #5 in the world and trying desperately to get into the semi-finals (because I know it will improve my ranking.)

In the QFs, I should theoretically have to play #4 in order to advance to the SFs. But the way the system is now, since it's random draws, I might have to face Nadal or Federer instead, while the guy ranked below me at #7 ends up playing against #4. That doesn't make sense.

Max G.
06-03-2006, 06:13 PM
It's designed so that players NEVER have an incentive to lower their ranking instead of raise it.

Since tennis is so much a game of matchups, and because of surfaces differences, it's definitely possible to WANT to play a higher-ranked player.

After all, who would you rather be seeded to play early in the French Open - #5 Andy Roddick or #6 Nikolay Davydenko? ;) I'd bet people fear Davydenko a LOT more on clay.

...the way the ranking system is, it guarantees that #1 and #2 cannot play until the final. It guarantees that none of the top 4 players in the world play each other until the semifinals. It guarantees that the top 8 cannot play until the quarterfinals, the top 16 cannot meet each other until the round of 16, and now with the increased seeding it also guarantees that no top-32 player can play another top-32 player until the third round.

It is NOT meant to dictate who plays who in those rounds.

Max G.
06-03-2006, 06:48 PM
That doesn't sound like a good way to do it. Let say I'm #5 in the world and trying desperately to get into the semi-finals (because I know it will improve my ranking.)

In the QFs, I should theoretically have to play #4 in order to advance to the SFs. But the way the system is now, since it's random draws, I might have to face Nadal or Federer instead, while the guy ranked below me at #7 ends up playing against #4. That doesn't make sense.

Or, there's the other scenario that I can think of. Suppose you have four players - #1, #2, #3, and #4, by ranking.

Now, let's suppose neither 3 nor 4 can EVER beat #1, because he's just that amazing. (A possible scenario - it's pretty close to what we have right now, though Nalbandian at #3 can occasionally beat Fed)

Lets say that #4 suddenly improves, by a lot, so he's actually playing BETTER TENNIS than #3. But will his ranking ever improve? If they seed deterministically, then #4 would always play #1 and lose in the semis. #2 and #3 would always play each other in the semis - lets say sometimes #2 wins, sometimes #3 wins, they have a good rivalry.

But poor old #4 - it doesn't matter how well he plays, even if he's playing better tennis than #3, he'll never get a chance to show that, because he's always going to be playing #1. He'll never get to show that, just like #3, he can ALSO take down #2 occasionally; it doesn't matter. And because in the big tournaments, the ones where all four of the top players show up, he'll never get to the finals, he'll stay at #4. Whereas #3 will always have the easier draw, and thus stay higher-ranked, regardless of which one of them is ACTUALLY better.

Doesn't seem fair to me.

Could be even worse for someone ranked in the low 30s. Suppose we have, say, #30 - he's a pretty good player, he certainly can't hang with the top 10. Now suppose he improves so that he's actually playing as well as the #15 guy. ...but is he ever going to show this? Of course not. Because he'll play someone in the top 5 early in the draw. Heck, in that case, it might even be better to be unseeded! He'd have a better chance of having a good draw if he's NOT SEEDED than if you're seeded low!

With the randomization of the seeding, it guarantees that over a number of tournaments, players will get to play a variety of opponents in the later rounds, giving lower-ranked players a chance to play DIFFERENT players ranked above them, give them a chance to show what they've got both against players ranked just above them and players ranked far above them.