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View Full Version : Interesting observations on the men's final from Roche and Wilander


DoubleHanded&LovinIt
06-12-2006, 01:16 PM
Check it out: http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-french12jun12,1,6898515.story?coll=la-headlines-sports

Amone
06-12-2006, 01:21 PM
Interesting. So, in short, Nadal wins because he upsets Federer, and perhaps not by outplaying?

DoubleHanded&LovinIt
06-12-2006, 01:39 PM
No, I don't think that's it. I think Federer can't match Nadal's intensity--mentally or athletically and that intimidates him. The intimidation then causes Federer to choke and go out of the game plan he needs to win the tournament.

I also think that Federer lets his ego get the best of him when he plays Nadal. Federer tries to prove to Nadal that his backhand is not vulnerable so he continues to hit topspin even when it's not working; he also let's his ego get the best of him when he tries to beat Nadal at Nadal's own baseline bashing game. It's reminiscent of Becker trying to battle Agassi from the baseline rather than play his natural serve-and-volley game.

datsveryinterestin
06-12-2006, 01:43 PM
The extra "emotional gear" is needed by Federer.

He seems too unemotional which is fine when he is winning, but when his backhand is off repeatedly like it was in the French Final...
He would be better served to smash a racquet, curse at the sky, and get an injury timeout.

Sure it might not look as regal as remaining calm and mishitting another backhand, but sometimes a little outburst and break can really change the momentum.

DoubleHanded&LovinIt
06-12-2006, 01:45 PM
That crowd was there, willing to die for him. He was unwilling to spill his guts in return. A pity, for Roger. Ey?

dh003i
06-12-2006, 01:55 PM
I call bull on that. Becoming emotional helps some players, and doesn't help others. I think it just leads to playing dumber tennis. Maybe you play a little harder, a little more physical, due to the "fight or flight" instinct, or whatever. But that plays into a physical style of tennis, not into Federer's style.

Federer has never believed that you should be "totally in the moment", but thinks you should always be kind of observing yourself dispassionately.

federerhoogenbandfan
06-12-2006, 01:57 PM
He also loses because Nadal has gotten in his head I think. The Roma final and Dubai finals are good examples of this. In Monte Carlo, and the French Open, Nadal was able to break down his backhand and that is why he outplayed Federer and won. However in Dubai and Roma Federer played well enough to win, really should have won, and still did not since he did not have the confidence or focus to close the match out, and close the important points.

jackcrawford
06-12-2006, 07:43 PM
Federer doesn't like to compete - Nalbandian quits in the semis after that wonder shot, and as Wilander points out Roddick and Hewitt are always ready to throw in the towel - I doubt Fed will ever dig deep against Nadal - he's lazy like Nastase and relies on his talent.

fastdunn
06-12-2006, 08:06 PM
From semi-final, I think Federer's confidence was hurt.

For the 1st set and a half, Federer was being violated brutally
by Nalbandian.
Then he thought he made a brilliant come-back only to find out
Nalbandian was hurt. Confidence downer.

Then he faced Nadal's come back from 2nd set. Maybe he was
deeply disturbed by Nalbandian and then Nadal.

Federer is showing sign of developing predator's mentality.
He is very uncomfortable with being out-played, being on the
mercy of others, so to speak...

Tennis_Goodness
06-12-2006, 08:40 PM
You guys are ridiculous. Federer is the number 1 player in the world and trust me he dosen't fear Nadal. Federer is far and away better then everybody including Nadal. Three of his loses to Nadal were on clay this year. Nadal could possibly be one of the greatest clay court players ever, and might even become the best ever and some of you are saying Federer is afraid to play him.

Just like last year people predicted the fall of Federer and the rise of Nadal but everybody was wrong last year just as there wrong this year. Federer is still going to dominate the mens tour and while Nadal and the French Open will be his toughest test, Nadal won't come close to overtaking Federer's thrown!

superman1
06-12-2006, 08:47 PM
Federer does fear Nadal, just like he fears Nalbandian. It's not like he cowers in their presence, but he does get a little bit nervous when he sees them across the net, I think he's even admitted that. Add the pressure of completing The Grand Slam and you can see why he started so poorly against Nalbandian, and why he played the worst match of his life against Nadal. He somehow gets into a 4th set tiebreaker, he is completely undeserving of it since Nadal has been playing so much better, but somehow he gets to it, and what does he do? Continues to slouch around and dump backhands and concede defeat. He's a mental giant when compared to most players, but compared to Nadal he's a weakling.

Tennis_Goodness
06-12-2006, 08:51 PM
This is how invicible Federer appears and how dominate he really is. Federer is expected to beat everybody and win every match.

He doesn't fear Nadal or Nalbadian, there games give Federer difficulty for a number of reasons but Federer never concedes defeat. Federer is a mental giant and he is having problems with who could turn out to be the best clay courter ever on clay. Nalbadian is the number 3 player in the world and plays like one. He should give Federer some trouble.

There are lot of young fans and people who are new to tennis on these boards. People jump to conclusions way too fast lol. At the end of the year Federer will once again be number 1 just like he was last year when everybody predicted Nadal would become Number 1 and he never did!

Breaker
06-12-2006, 08:54 PM
I remember one of the last times Federer flat out smashed his racquet..last year against Nadal at Miami after going down 4-1 in the 3rd set, all of a sudden the momentum changed and he pulled through that match. Back then he wasn't afraid of Nadal but still that seemed to be the turning point in the match after he was getting destroyed.

superman1
06-12-2006, 08:56 PM
Duh, Federer is far and away the #1 player, and IMO one of the top 3 greatest ever. But he's never been tested like this, and the fact that he was not able to rise up to the occassion on his fifth chance in a row just says to me that he is lacking something mentally. I used to look at their head-to-head and say, "that doesn't tell the whole story, Federer was the better player in a couple of those matches and deserved to win in Rome." But seeing him not even put up a fight on Sunday has changed my mind. Federer is just not willing to fight. He refuses to accept the physical challenge that Nadal poses. You can't be casual when you play Nadal no matter who you are.

Tennis_Goodness
06-12-2006, 09:01 PM
People will just have to wait and see what happends. I'm pretty confident Federer will prove many of you wrong, just like he did last year and the year before.

At the end of the year Federer is going to be sitting firmly on his empire just as he was last year and the year before. The clay court season is over and people's fanatical excitement will quite down and then most people will start thinking logically again!

mileslong
06-12-2006, 09:19 PM
Federer doesn't like to compete - Nalbandian quits in the semis after that wonder shot, and as Wilander points out Roddick and Hewitt are always ready to throw in the towel - I doubt Fed will ever dig deep against Nadal - he's lazy like Nastase and relies on his talent.
one of the greatest players of all time and some hacker comes on here and proclaims that he is lazy and a quitter, unfreakin believable...

DoubleHanded&LovinIt
06-12-2006, 09:22 PM
Breaker, great point! Show me that ****ing fire inside, Roger! Come on!

jasonbourne
06-12-2006, 09:39 PM
I'm sure Fed feels deep pain for losing the French to Nadal the way he did. Let's hope this loss turns his match up with Nadal around for him, to similar effect with how Sampras 1992 USO loss to Edberg made Sampras hungrier to win all his subsequent slams.

urban
06-12-2006, 11:07 PM
It's not all about nerves. Nadal is simply the better clay courter. One thing i noticed, was, that Fderer's impeccable movement is not as effective on clay. He often needs long last strides with his net-pointing leg, to get wide balls right and left. Nadal makes quick, small steps, remains in an open body position, to change direction more smoothly. Even Fed's forehand is affected by this, when forced wide.

HollerOne5
06-12-2006, 11:41 PM
It's not all about nerves. Nadal is simply the better clay courter. One thing i noticed, was, that Fderer's impeccable movement is not as effective on clay. He often needs long last strides with his net-pointing leg, to get wide balls right and left. Nadal makes quick, small steps, remains in an open body position, to change direction more smoothly. Even Fed's forehand is affected by this, when forced wide.

People need to stop saying Nadal is just better on clay and accept there are many other reasons why Federer cannot beat Nadal, even 2 of their matches that they have had on hardcourts. You people are in denial, and I think even Federer is in denial, by having to point out that Nadal is a great clay court player, instead of noting him as a great TENNIS player.

fastdunn
06-12-2006, 11:45 PM
People need to stop saying Nadal is just better on clay and accept there are many other reasons why Federer cannot beat Nadal, even 2 of their matches that they have had on hardcourts. You people are in denial, and I think even Federer is in denial, by having to point out that Nadal is a great clay court player, instead of noting him as a great TENNIS player.

Yeah, the fact that he is cranky about it shows lack of
confidence against Nadal.

chess9
06-13-2006, 12:06 AM
DOUBT....

Doubt creeps in on silent feet through the back door of one's mind and soon it owns your soul.

No one fears Nadal. That is sheer bull****.


-Robert

ericsson
06-13-2006, 12:15 AM
saying that roger is lazy is not fair, i saw matches where he runs like hell, and he's quite fast too. but the fact is, nadal is the most fittest, fastest of them all and he puts the most topspin on the balls and lets not forget he's mentally extremely tough. for me that makes him the best clay courter of them all. on faster courts though thats another thing but on clay he's the king. (and roger on the other courts ;)

ksbh
06-13-2006, 04:46 AM
Nadal just won his 2nd French Open title and he's suddenly the best clay courter of them all? Some of you guys are funny!

Bjorn Borg won 6 and several others won 3 or more, including most recently Guga. Nadal could go on to become the greatest but it's way too early to make that call yet.

saying that roger is lazy is not fair, i saw matches where he runs like hell, and he's quite fast too. but the fact is, nadal is the most fittest, fastest of them all and he puts the most topspin on the balls and lets not forget he's mentally extremely tough. for me that makes him the best clay courter of them all. on faster courts though thats another thing but on clay he's the king. (and roger on the other courts ;)

morten
06-13-2006, 05:15 AM
The most important thing IMO, the high bounce from Nadal. Hard to hit in the rise on clay constantly. Soderling said he was not so impressed with Nadal after his first round loss. Saying he" dont know why Federer has problems with him, federer is so much better" . I think the high bounce gets Fed out of his comfortsone... I hate highbouncing balls myself btw :)

sureshs
06-13-2006, 07:08 AM
The article is wrong in saying only Budge and Laver were comparable to what Fed was trying to achieve. Fed had a much narrower goal - to equal Agassi. Big confusion about calendar slam and career slam, and even in that, Agassi was not mentioned. Multiple errors.

inyourface
06-13-2006, 07:17 AM
he's suddenly the best clay courter of them all? Some of you guys are funny!..you can not see that but insteed you can see that Nadal is going to retire because ,his game is very exigent fisically.....mmm...extrangle

Fischer76
06-13-2006, 07:36 AM
People need to stop saying Nadal is just better on clay and accept there are many other reasons why Federer cannot beat Nadal, even 2 of their matches that they have had on hardcourts. You people are in denial, and I think even Federer is in denial, by having to point out that Nadal is a great clay court player, instead of noting him as a great TENNIS player.

True, cannot agree more. But there is more, I think Nadal has this warrior mentality that reinforces his level of mental fortitude and competitive fire backed by awesome physical strength and good tactical and strategic sense on court. Him being a lefty does help too.

here... check this link on some of his strategies.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/tennis/skills/5019976.stm

dmastous
06-13-2006, 07:56 AM
one of the greatest players of all time and some hacker comes on here and proclaims that he is lazy and a quitter, unfreakin believable...
This about sums up my feelings quite frequently from some of the reactions on this board. Well put.
If Roger Federer wants to take a dispassionate approach to his tennis who are we tell him he's wrong. He's taken that approach and won with it for three years.
I've heard frequently that Roger had a bad temper during his youth. I too had a bad temper and broke several racquets. I had to find a way to get that under control if I was going to keep playing. I'm sure Roger had to do something to get his temper under control and this is what he came up with.

servevolley
06-13-2006, 07:56 AM
In playing Nadal on clay, it would seem to me Federer needs to tweak his game. Just because you're playing a very good and arguably the best clay court player in the world doesn't mean you have to play him on his terms and play a strategic style which doesn't force Nadal to make adjustments.
some things I did not see Roger doing was coming in off the return, even periodically to throw a curve at Nadal and break his groundstroking rythym, also hitting more approach shots down the middle of the court to cut off the passing angles, serve and volley more to get Nadal to think about that possibility, hitting more bh slice and perhaps more importantly showing more fight and emotionalism when the match is on the line. Some of the points Roger played were extremely uncharacteristic. Federer has all the tools to beat Nadal and perhaps eventually dominate him since Nadal is basically a retriever/counter-puncher who plays a high percentage spin game...the key is execution at the right times and continuing to apply pressure so Nadal can't settle in and whip his topspin forehand to Federer's less than brilliant backhand against a lefty.

DoubleHanded&LovinIt
06-13-2006, 08:41 AM
Fischer76--Thank you very much for the link!

Fischer76
06-13-2006, 09:09 AM
Fischer76--Thank you very much for the link!

Enjoy.. Gives you a new perspective on what problems Federer is facing

fastdunn
06-13-2006, 10:33 AM
In playing Nadal on clay, it would seem to me Federer needs to tweak his game. Just because you're playing a very good and arguably the best clay court player in the world doesn't mean you have to play him on his terms and play a strategic style which doesn't force Nadal to make adjustments.
some things I did not see Roger doing was coming in off the return, even periodically to throw a curve at Nadal and break his groundstroking rythym, also hitting more approach shots down the middle of the court to cut off the passing angles, serve and volley more to get Nadal to think about that possibility, hitting more bh slice and perhaps more importantly showing more fight and emotionalism when the match is on the line. Some of the points Roger played were extremely uncharacteristic. Federer has all the tools to beat Nadal and perhaps eventually dominate him since Nadal is basically a retriever/counter-puncher who plays a high percentage spin game...the key is execution at the right times and continuing to apply pressure so Nadal can't settle in and whip his topspin forehand to Federer's less than brilliant backhand against a lefty.

Federer may have *many* tools but does he have a few important
tools that matters against Nadal ?

For example, foot speed. Is Federer fast enough ? He may be born with
ability to anticipate. But is he fast enough ? Nadal coners him to the
backhand and stretch him wide to the forehand. There's no need for
anticipation or magic here. You know it's coming. But is he fast enough ?

Serve. It's the most important shot. Is Federer's serve potent enough
so that he can hold his serves better against Nadal ?

Net game. Nadal neutralizes Federer's baseline game. Period. Can he get
out of his comfort zone and make some net points when it really matters ?

Federer may have variety. But a few key elements of his game is not
potent enough against Nadal.

If he improves those and becomes a true all courter, he'll be G.O.A.T.
for sure...

textbook strokes
06-13-2006, 11:24 AM
Federer may have *many* tools but does he have a few important
tools that matters against Nadal ?

For example, foot speed. Is Federer fast enough ? He may be born with
ability to anticipate. But is he fast enough ? Nadal coners him to the
backhand and stretch him wide to the forehand. There's no need for
anticipation or magic here. You know it's coming. But is he fast enough ?

Serve. It's the most important shot. Is Federer's serve potent enough
so that he can hold his serves better against Nadal ?

Net game. Nadal neutralizes Federer's baseline game. Period. Can he get
out of his comfort zone and make some net points when it really matters ?

Federer may have variety. But a few key elements of his game is not
potent enough against Nadal.

If he improves those and becomes a true all courter, he'll be G.O.A.T.
for sure...

Brilliant!. The best dispassionated analysis that I saw in this board!