PDA

View Full Version : How does doping work?


vkartikv
06-13-2006, 06:14 AM
How often are these tests conducted? It seems to me that steroids can be taken such that they get flushed out of the body before it's time to take the test. Is this possible or can they still be detected in the blood (or consequently in the urine) stream?

Moose Malloy
06-13-2006, 08:47 AM
They also take random tests- show upat players homes during offseason & take samples. Tennis players are the most tested athletes, system is very good(maybe too good, players get harsh sentences from small traces of substances present in cold medication)

Federer & Nadal were tested like 15 times last year.

baseliner
06-13-2006, 08:52 AM
I'm guessing this post was inspired by teh banning of the New Zealander (Nielson?) for testing positive for a masking agent during the Australian Open.

MasterTS
06-13-2006, 09:28 AM
How often are these tests conducted? It seems to me that steroids can be taken such that they get flushed out of the body before it's time to take the test. Is this possible or can they still be detected in the blood (or consequently in the urine) stream?

Steriods don't 'flush' out of the system. Stuff like nandralone (deca-durabolin) leaves traces that is dedectable for 12 months. Stuff like winstrol (ben johnson used this) is dedectable for 18 months. There is no substance that will 'flush' out fast enough as you put it.

vkartikv
06-13-2006, 09:29 AM
Steriods don't 'flush' out of the system. Stuff like nandralone (deca-durabolin) leaves traces that is dedectable for 12 months. Stuff like winstrol (ben johnson used this) is dedectable for 18 months. There is no substance that will 'flush' out fast enough as you put it.

I find it very hard to believe that a substance ingested by the body can be traced 12 months down the line. Does it accumulate somewhere?

MasterTS
06-13-2006, 09:47 AM
I find it very hard to believe that a substance ingested by the body can be traced 12 months down the line. Does it accumulate somewhere?

The metabolites remain in your blood for much longer than you feel the effects of the drug.

Current systems of detection are so good now they can detect stuff in concentration of one quarter part per billion!

If you find it hard to beleive then do you think these guys getting charged with doping are dumb enough to take drugs a few day sor weeks prior to competitino where they know they're gonna get tested? No.. they are dumb because they think the stuff they took 6 months ago isn't getting detected.

MasterTS
06-13-2006, 09:51 AM
So my advise to you vkar.. stop taking steriods now if you're gonna be random tested in the future :)

vkartikv
06-13-2006, 09:52 AM
So my advise to you vkar.. stop taking steriods now if you're gonna be random tested in the future :)

Not a pro so I have no such worries :)

chess9
06-13-2006, 10:01 AM
There is no reliable test yet for hgh. Also, I believe insulin use is on the rise and blood doping is very strong in cycling.

We don't know how extensive the testing actually is as done by the ITF. Just because they take blood samples doesn't mean every blood sample is tested or that every blood sample is tested for all banned substances. The ITF's rules don't require it and don't expect them to truthfully tell you what they are doing. They can't because to do so would expose the many weaknesses in the testing.

If you think tennis is different from cycling or major league baseball, other than the nature of the drugs used, you are sadly mistaken.

-Robert

Steve Huff
06-13-2006, 08:46 PM
Many drugs can be detected via a hair sample. Don't know if steroids can be, but there are many that can. Random drug tests are generally urine samples. Tennis' governing body can't just stick you for blood any time they like. But, they can make you pee in a cup about any time they like.

sandiegotennisboy
06-13-2006, 10:06 PM
anyone else think they use HGH in bolletieri, especially for the girls???Sharapova and Vaidisova are phenotypically taller than their genetics would imply (have you seen their parents? theyre not 6 footers).

chess9
06-13-2006, 10:53 PM
Many drugs can be detected via a hair sample. Don't know if steroids can be, but there are many that can. Random drug tests are generally urine samples. Tennis' governing body can't just stick you for blood any time they like. But, they can make you pee in a cup about any time they like.

Yes, but I believe the urine tests are not as reliable or complete as the blood tests. At any rate, you are right, they take urine samples, not blood samples, which further reduces the value of the testing.

-Robert

MasterTS
06-13-2006, 10:55 PM
anyone else think they use HGH in bolletieri, especially for the girls???Sharapova and Vaidisova are phenotypically taller than their genetics would imply (have you seen their parents? theyre not 6 footers).

Sharapovas dad is like 6'2".. Next time u see him stand next to him and you'll know.

And no they don't use HgH.. ... hGh change your facial bone structures through high dosage. It does make you taller lol..

chess9
06-13-2006, 10:56 PM
anyone else think they use HGH in bolletieri, especially for the girls???Sharapova and Vaidisova are phenotypically taller than their genetics would imply (have you seen their parents? theyre not 6 footers).

Nick Bolletieri wouldn't do that, but parents might. And athletes WILL. Regardless, that's a baseless assertion against two players for whom you have NO evidence other than their height! You are treading dangerously close to the libel line, if you haven't crossed it. I'd suggest you delete the content of your post at your first opportunity.

-Robert

Midlife crisis
06-13-2006, 11:14 PM
They also take random tests- show upat players homes during offseason & take samples. Tennis players are the most tested athletes, system is very good(maybe too good, players get harsh sentences from small traces of substances present in cold medication)

Federer & Nadal were tested like 15 times last year.

Tennis players are NOT the most tested athletes, and actually are far from it. Cyclists, for instance, are tested way more often. During the Tour de France, the winner and runner up of every stage are tested, along with I believe the top three in the overall classification. This means that Lance probably pee'd in a cup 15 times in a period of three weeks.

The sports where doping are most effective are those that push the limits of human energy output, like cross country skiing, cycling, and running. A difference in capability of as little as 0.5% can mean the difference between winning and being outside of the top five.

Midlife crisis
06-13-2006, 11:18 PM
I think one overriding factor is the single mindedness that these top athletes have. It's something that none of can really understand, other than those of us who work constantly to be and are at the tops of our field.

There was a study conducted many years ago around an Olympics in which a number of athletes were asked if they could take something that would absolutely guarantee they would win a gold medal, but that it would cause them to die within something like five years, would you take it. Somewhere around 75% said they would.

hoosierbr
06-13-2006, 11:32 PM
The system has gotten much better in recent years given the scandals with tainted supplements and guys like Greg Rusedski, Bodhan Uhlirach, Todd Larkham and others were cleared of doping allegations b/c the illegal substances were tied to those supplements provided by ATP trainers for 20 years. Still not perfect but it never will be.

The Canas case is very interesting as the Tribunal reduced his sentence almost in half.

It makes me wonder what would have happened to Petr Korda had the current system been in place? Korda always claimed he didn't know how nandrolone got into his system and pointed out his urine sample was clean in a test taken two weeks after he first came up positive. He intially wasn't suspended but there was such an uproar, paricularly among players, that the decision was appealed and eventually drove him out of tennis a year after winning the Aussie Open. What a shame it would be if he had been innocent all along.

chess9
06-14-2006, 12:00 AM
I think one overriding factor is the single mindedness that these top athletes have. It's something that none of can really understand, other than those of us who work constantly to be and are at the tops of our field.

There was a study conducted many years ago around an Olympics in which a number of athletes were asked if they could take something that would absolutely guarantee they would win a gold medal, but that it would cause them to die within something like five years, would you take it. Somewhere around 75% said they would.

Yes, I've seen that quote too.

Money and fame drives some of this, but a lot of it is just pure competitiveness. I want to beat the next guy, so what drugs can I take to reach that goal? If it happens to be illegal, so what? It's my body and I want to win.

If the ITF has a "problem", the UCI has a war on its hands.

Btw, I found out that my Advair for my asthma is now detectable with the current crop of machines. So, although my blood stream only absorbs a few parts per thousand of the very small amount of corticosteroid I inhale, I must declare it to the ITF. I've downloaded the form since I started taking Advair. At my age I doubt I'd be tested, but YIPERS the embarrassment if I were to be tested and not declared! What a brave new world....
-Robert

chess9
06-14-2006, 12:04 AM
The system has gotten much better in recent years given the scandals with tainted supplements and guys like Greg Rusedski, Bodhan Uhlirach, Todd Larkham and others were cleared of doping allegations b/c the illegal substances were tied to those supplements provided by ATP trainers for 20 years. Still not perfect but it never will be.

The Canas case is very interesting as the Tribunal reduced his sentence almost in half.

It makes me wonder what would have happened to Petr Korda had the current system been in place? Korda always claimed he didn't know how nandrolone got into his system and pointed out his urine sample was clean in a test taken two weeks after he first came up positive. He intially wasn't suspended but there was such an uproar, paricularly among players, that the decision was appealed and eventually drove him out of tennis a year after winning the Aussie Open. What a shame it would be if he had been innocent all along.

Korda was either a victim or beneficiary of poor testing, depending on one's point of view. :) Testing has improved I'm told. But, the unanswered question is how improved are the world's BALCO labs?

-Robert

superman1
06-14-2006, 12:10 AM
There was a study conducted many years ago around an Olympics in which a number of athletes were asked if they could take something that would absolutely guarantee they would win a gold medal, but that it would cause them to die within something like five years, would you take it. Somewhere around 75% said they would.

I find that very hard to believe. If that's true, then these athletes are nutters.

chess9
06-14-2006, 12:21 AM
I find that very hard to believe. If that's true, then these athletes are nutters.

You know, I wish it were hard to believe but I remember being a young man too well. If one of the guys in my infield dropped a ball on a critical play while I was pitching I was unmerciful. I'm sure I was one of the most hated 14 year olds in the world. :) I just wanted to win and regarded failure as "not an option". When I was young I was driven by insatiable intensity and I know I wasn't alone. :(

On the other hand, so many kids today appear to care about so little....

-Robert

Midlife crisis
06-14-2006, 07:31 AM
I find that very hard to believe. If that's true, then these athletes are nutters.

It seems so way out there but it's true. When you train so hard and devote your life to a single pursuit, your whole self worth is based on how you perform. That drive is something very few people have - most of the people post here don't have it, which is why we're tennis fanatics but recreational level only (well, there are other factors, but drive and determination is a huge one).

I did a little bit of googling, and found this:

http://www.gloucestersports.co.nz/articles/drugtesting.html

The last paragraph of this article, written by a Dr. Neil Averis who is involved with the New Zealand drug testing agency, says:

Each Olympics a casual survey is done of athletes competing. They are asked if they would take a drug that would guarantee a 5% performance improvement, was totally undetectable but would certainly cause their death in five years - would they take it? Each Olympics more than 50% answer yes. The role of the NZSDA is not to allow an environment where temptation can exist. Athletes must know that cheats are likely to be caught, and this belief allows them to train knowing the playing field is level. It is for these reasons that the athletes support the programme and makes the job of the drug testing officer a worthwhile one.

Midlife crisis
06-14-2006, 07:38 AM
Btw, I found out that my Advair for my asthma is now detectable with the current crop of machines. So, although my blood stream only absorbs a few parts per thousand of the very small amount of corticosteroid I inhale, I must declare it to the ITF. I've downloaded the form since I started taking Advair. At my age I doubt I'd be tested, but YIPERS the embarrassment if I were to be tested and not declared! What a brave new world....
-Robert

I take too many things to combat allergies that would be illegal. I don't know if you follow the Tour de France much but a couple of years ago, Jonathan Vaughters got stung by a bee just below his left eye. It swelled up so much he couldn't open that eye, and riding a bike at high speed using only one eye is not a good idea.

He couldn't continue in that state, but he also knew that he couldn't take an anti-histamine to combat the swelling, because he would risk being chosen to randomly be drug tested after that stage, and if he were caught, even though he had a visible and obvious excuse, that he could be banned from competing for up to a couple of years. He had to quit the race instead.

In the end, the cheaters will always be ahead of the enforcers, and probably in the next ten or twenty years, drug usage will disappear entirely as gene manipulation therapies will prove so much more effective. Can you imagine what the world would be like then? Every newborn has to give a DNA sample within moments of birth to be used as a control over his/her lifetime. Whoa!

chess9
06-14-2006, 08:21 AM
I take too many things to combat allergies that would be illegal. I don't know if you follow the Tour de France much but a couple of years ago, Jonathan Vaughters got stung by a bee just below his left eye. It swelled up so much he couldn't open that eye, and riding a bike at high speed using only one eye is not a good idea.

He couldn't continue in that state, but he also knew that he couldn't take an anti-histamine to combat the swelling, because he would risk being chosen to randomly be drug tested after that stage, and if he were caught, even though he had a visible and obvious excuse, that he could be banned from competing for up to a couple of years. He had to quit the race instead.

In the end, the cheaters will always be ahead of the enforcers, and probably in the next ten or twenty years, drug usage will disappear entirely as gene manipulation therapies will prove so much more effective. Can you imagine what the world would be like then? Every newborn has to give a DNA sample within moments of birth to be used as a control over his/her lifetime. Whoa!

Yes, I follow Le Tour every year and I remember the episode. Vaughters would have no luck if he didn't have bad luck. Guys with hay fever/allergies have the same problem. Can you imagine climbing Le Col du Madeleine with a bad hay fever allergy going and no drugs? Bloody hell....

Gene doping is going to be one of the scarier moments. Some of the choices may be difficult. Imagine the talented cyclist kid who has some physical infirmity, like limited lung function or kidney problems, which could be cured with gene doping. He gets the cure but then can't ride Le Tour? I'm sure the scenarios will be even worse. Maybe everyone will be allowed to get gene doping so everyone can be Nadal, Armstrong, or Babe Ruth. What I want are good eyes. I'd like to be able to see the fuzz coming off the ball and the moment of the serve. :) Eagle eyes!! Human eyes suck....

-Robert

LuckyR
06-14-2006, 08:37 AM
Very interesting discussion of what folks can do. But IMHO tennis (as opposed to weight lifting, swimming and cycling) has such a Mental Game component that things that have aggressiveness as a side effect, like steroids, would screw up your game far more than some extra musculatur would ever help it.

Now blood doping for best of 5 matches might help, but you'd better stay hydrated or you probably would get a blood clot with all that extra blood.

LeftyServe
06-14-2006, 11:12 AM
Very interesting discussion of what folks can do. But IMHO tennis (as opposed to weight lifting, swimming and cycling) has such a Mental Game component that things that have aggressiveness as a side effect, like steroids, would screw up your game far more than some extra musculatur would ever help it.

Now blood doping for best of 5 matches might help, but you'd better stay hydrated or you probably would get a blood clot with all that extra blood.

Agreed, however, for a tennis player steroids are more likely to be taken for the rapid recovery factor, rather than the added muscle strength. The doping issue in Tennis is quite hazy. I wonder what the true extent is. Has any pro actually admitted to doping and explained the process and benefits?

chess9
06-14-2006, 11:59 AM
Agreed, however, for a tennis player steroids are more likely to be taken for the rapid recovery factor, rather than the added muscle strength. The doping issue in Tennis is quite hazy. I wonder what the true extent is. Has any pro actually admitted to doping and explained the process and benefits?

As I recall, HgH is better at accelerating recovery than steroids. Roid rage is a very serious downside to steroids, to say nothing of having acne, your nuts shrinking to the size of peanuts, and all the potential carcinogenic, heart, liver and kidney implications. Steroid usage by tennis players strikes me as insane given the downsides and you can get enough strength from weight training without steroids. Get the right strength coach and start in the off season and you can produce some serious strength gains.

I am training a woman with severe emphysema (25% FEV1) and in 6 months she's made huge gains in strength. By way of example, she went from being Miss PunyVerse at a leg press of 30kgs to being Miss AnnDrogen by leg pressing 105 kgs. (her name is Ann) These are not atypical gains for out of shape older people, who have the most to gain from strength training.

Anyway, any tennis player who takes steroids is making a huge mistake.

-Robert

Midlife crisis
06-14-2006, 12:17 PM
Maybe everyone will be allowed to get gene doping so everyone can be Nadal, Armstrong, or Babe Ruth. What I want are good eyes. I'd like to be able to see the fuzz coming off the ball and the moment of the serve. :) Eagle eyes!! Human eyes suck....

They should do like bodybuilding competitions and have an "unlimited" category where anything goes, and a "natural" category for those who are willing to get tested to the hilt.

Aykhan Mammadov
06-14-2006, 01:54 PM
It seems to me that some of posters in the thread know the subject well. As MasterTS told some components are detectable during 12 months.

1) So my 1-st question is: How can it happen that amateurs know this fact while some of PROs keeping educated personnel of doctors, coachs and etc.. are not informed about the fact and risk?

2) Are there some kind of normal foods, drinks which we or PROs use sometimes and which may consist of some of prohibited components ? If YES, are players warned about ?

3) Last question is how long do these components help to a player improve his game? I mean how long do their effect last ? 1 day, 2, 3 ...?

LuckyR
06-14-2006, 03:09 PM
1- No answer except to say that sometimes people so close to a subject can get blinded to the obvious.

2- Not that I am aware of, steroid wise. But some foods can mimic narcotics and speed-like substances on testing.

3- This is the most important question, namely, is there any evidence that any of this stuff, legal or illegal does one whit of good for a tennis game? To my mind the jury is still very far out on that question. Remember we aren't talking about weight lifting here, where keeping your composure and a clear head aren't major components of the activity (just walk up to the steel bar and lift it off of the floor, duh).

chess9
06-15-2006, 10:53 AM
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/17/1676_51888.htm

You young'uns might be hitting 150 mph serves one day, IF you get the right doctor and can afford it. :)

-Robert