Attention All "wrist Snappers"!!

[TennsDog]

Please do not post threads asking about the "wrist snap" on serve. It has been covered and debated far too much on this site. As with many others, it is a common topic, so first search it. Second of all, don't call it a wrist snap unless you qualify it by mentioning that you realize there is not necessarily a voluntary "snapping" motion of the wrist at impact. Yes, the wrist does suddenly rotate at the peak of the service motion; and no, it is not the result of using your forearm to muscle the ball for more power. It is getting kind of old having someone use the term "wrist snap" regarding the serve and it starts a whole line of controversy and correcting for a dozen following posts.

[looseswing]

Would you prefer pronation?

[tnig469]

You know many other threads will happen...cuz they wont read this one either! :)

[pushing_wins]

who are you to tell people to do or not do???????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????

[Bungalo Bill]

Please do not post threads asking about the "wrist snap" on serve. It has been covered and debated far too much on this site. As with many others, it is a common topic, so first search it. Second of all, don't call it a wrist snap unless you qualify it by mentioning that you realize there is not necessarily a voluntary "snapping" motion of the wrist at impact. Yes, the wrist does suddenly rotate at the peak of the service motion; and no, it is not the result of using your forearm to muscle the ball for more power. It is getting kind of old having someone use the term "wrist snap" regarding the serve and it starts a whole line of controversy and correcting for a dozen following posts.

How about we say "whippa snappa". I can whippa snappa my serve. :)

[beernutz]

who are you to tell people to do or not do???????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????

Ditto. The thread the OP started is as bad as the one's he wants to do away with.

[TennsDog]

Obviously you people can do and say what you want, I am just sick of seeing all the posts about people wanting to snap their wrist to serve and then three other people telling them not to, and then the person saying they didn't really mean snap, blah blah blah...

[tnig469]

Obviously you people can do and say what you want, I am just sick of seeing all the posts about people wanting to snap their wrist to serve and then three other people telling them not to, and then the person saying they didn't really mean snap, blah blah blah...

we r sorry...please dont beat us :)

[TennsDog]

we r sorry...please dont beat us :)
Only on the courts! ;)

[ShooterMcMarco]

TennsDog, can you teach me how to properly snap my wrist so I can hit a 130 mph serve? I'm also trying to implement a wrist snap on my forehand, so I can impart ridiculous amounts of spin on it. Suggestions?

[siber222000]

who are you to tell people to do or not do???????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????
exactly man

[pushing_wins]

Only on the courts! ;)

your parents must have sent you to one of those tennis academy where they tell you your **** doesnt stink

[tnig469]

ah...its not all tennsdog's fault...he is just annoyed...we all get annyoed...just like ur gettin annoyed at him being annoyed...freedom of speech from everyone...i have a feeling this one wont end tho :)

[Bungalo Bill]

Obviously you people can do and say what you want, I am just sick of seeing all the posts about people wanting to snap their wrist to serve and then three other people telling them not to, and then the person saying they didn't really mean snap, blah blah blah...

Well you have a point that there is no such thing as a wrist snap. Some people overtime have literalized the meaning when it was meant simply to relax the entire arm so that the arm could act as a "whip".

Some people literally try and "snap" the wrist when they should simply relax the arm at the shoulder to try and get as deep of a stretch at the shoulder allowing their momentum and a continuous motion.

The wrist snap is more symbolic of a relaxed arm and that is about it. But I am one of those that say "dont try and snap the wrist" because it doesn't snap. :)

[dunlo]

Obviously you people can do and say what you want, I am just sick of seeing all the posts about people wanting to snap their wrist to serve and then three other people telling them not to, and then the person saying they didn't really mean snap, blah blah blah...

hi,
It has a very easy solution:DON'T READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)

[bdog]

In the most recent Tennis magazine under professional advice, Peter Burwash answered a question on leg drive during the serve. He states that it is a myth that knees will help you generate more speed on your serve. And he goes on to state that, 'We quickly realize that the speed was generated by the wrist. Although a slight knee bend is important, the focus should be on a loose wrist, not on your knees'.

I am a big proponent of this thinking and wonder what is wrong with the word 'snap'. I guess I can't think of a better word for this. I am not trying to debate anything here, just looking for a better word to help visualize this loose wrist motion. I think saying 'snap' is better than saying 'serve with a loose wrist'. Pronation sounds cool saying it, but try verbally teaching that to someone.

Hey Tennsdog, I am always looking for better ways to explain technique, what word do you use?

[gzhpcu]

According to Bruce Elliot, who has studied the biomechanics of the serve extensively in respect to the role of the wrist:

The wrist extends in the cocking phase and then rapidly flexes in the acceleration phase. This flexion of the wrist has been reported to be a major contributor to racquet velocity (Elliott et al., 1995). The wrist also moves from a radial deviated position to an ulnar deviated position at impact. This ulnar deviation seems to be a natural continuation of the wrist flexion movement and it also aids the racquet in reaching a more vertical position.

For a left hander (the left hand seen from the bottom, for a right hander, consider it to be the right hand seen from the top):

http://www.virtualtennisacademy.com/cms/serve.php/421/radial_ulnar_deviation.jpg

[JohnYandell]

The last post--think that's my friend Phil from Swtizerland--is 100% correct, as far as it goes.

To put it in simpler English, the wrist is laid back at the bottom of the drop, and in the 1/10 of a second or so between there and the contact, it rises to the neutral position. The wrist needs to be loose, and yes, since it carries the racket the final few inches to contact, it obviously contributes to racket head speed. The question is, is that a "snap"??

That term is truly misused. It supposedly describes the forward "snapping" of the wrist forward at and just after contact. There are still a lot of well known and well intentioned coaches who believe that happens and that it's the key to power and spin.

But it doesn't, and it's not. The proof is in the high speed video. You can look at hundreds of serves frame by frame--and I have--and you won't ever see the wrist "break" forward at or after contact. That happens, if it all, way out in the followthrough. And on many if not most serves you barely see an angle past that netural position where it was at contact.

If the racket is also moving far enough and fast enough to the right, you'll sometimes see the angle between the wrist and the arm change and shift a little to the right--but not forward.

These things are minor consequences. People focus on them and miss the core aspect of the motion upward to the ball. These are the extension or straightening of the elbow, and the rotation of the hand and the arm. These are the active motions and what players actively do to bring the racket to the ball.

"Pronation" as the term is commonly used describes that hand and arm rotation. People think about "pronation" as happening after the hit. Actually it's the continuation of the rotation of the hand and arm that starts on the way up to the ball.

Now, you want your wrist really relaxed. I've talked to Peter Burwash about this and this is really what he thinks is the key. And that move upward can feel like a snap. You can call it that if you wish. The point is less about the terminology than whether your motion matches what good players do.

The exact contribution of all the segments changes as the motion progresses over that few fractions of a second. Brian Gordon's awesome article on Tennisplayer breaks that down.

Brian also argues that the movement of the wrist to the neutral position is mostly or all the consequence of the other more fundamental movements.

But the players who work so hard to "snap" tend not to maximize these more fundamental aspects. This creates the exact opposite of the effect they wish. What I have found though is that players and coaches who want to believe in the myth of the wrist snap will often defend it to the death.

It's just a question of how important the truth is--and an improved motion--compared to defending long held beliefs. I taught the wrist snap because that was what I was taught--until I had evidence to study and create an informed opinion.

[Mark S. Hogan]

I don't know jack, but if I don't tighten, or stiffen the arm on the serve, reach up for the ball and try to snap over the ball, it flies long most of the time. And I have no control with a loosey goosey arm.

[Tim Tennis]

Yesterday I went to the courts to practice my serve. A couple of courts over was a wheelchair tennis player practicing his serve. We were the only two out there, it is was about 94 degrees. He was crunching his serves. I watched him for quite a while. I was fascinated by his mechanics and how hard he was hitting the ball. Obviously no use of the legs, no hip rotation, his shoulder was absolutely stationary, no turn at all, yet he was generating all kinds of power. The only muscles he used to generate all that racquet head speed where his triceps and his wrist.

Conclusions: A powerful wrist "contraction" will add significant racquet head speed.

Of course you relax and lay your wrist back, you have to load it before you can get that powerful contraction (wrist snap), just like any other muscle you are going to use to accelerate the racquet .

Of course the wrist is part of the total motion. It is the last accelerator and adds racquet head speed.

If you lay your wrist back and there is not some kind of movement/contraction (wrist snap) you will never be able to square up your racquet face. No, it will not catch up on its own unless you slow down or reverse some other part of the motion. Yes you can generate significant racquet head speed but the reality is you are losing a lot of energy. Roddick does not wait for anything.

I did go over and apologized to him for watching him. I complimented his serve and told him I was intrigued by his mechanics and just how hard he was hitting the ball. He told me he had only been playing for a year and he does compete in tournaments. Super nice guy.

If you want a big time serve you better "Power Up" your wrist.

Grip it and Rip it. http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/

[JohnYandell]

Sorry Tim, your explanation does not match either what the high speed video shows or the principles of biomechanics. In terms of what the wrist can do, the amount of torque generated by a forward snap is far less than what happens when it gets whipped upward due to larger rotational forces. This has been measured by Rod Cross, probably the world's leading tennis physicist.


I think it's great the wheelchair player could hit the serve so well, but that doesn't mean his technique is optimum. Or a model.

In addtion, unless you video him and look at him frame by frame, any description of what he does, or what you think you see he does is suspect. Not just you, all humans. Your eyes film at 20 frames a sec.

This is why people get so confused because they see parts of the motion that happen at slower speeds long after the contact.

[Bungalo Bill]

...But it doesn't, and it's not. The proof is in the high speed video. You can look at hundreds of serves frame by frame--and I have--and you won't ever see the wrist "break" forward at or after contact.

Good one

These things are minor consequences. People focus on them and miss the core aspect of the motion upward to the ball. These are the extension or straightening of the elbow...

Good one.

Now, you want your wrist really relaxed. I've talked to Peter Burwash about this and this is really what he thinks is the key.

Good one.

But the players who work so hard to "snap" tend not to maximize these more fundamental aspects. This creates the exact opposite of the effect they wish.

Good one.

What I have found though is that players and coaches who want to believe in the myth of the wrist snap will often defend it to the death.

Then to death it shall be...arrrrrrgggg...

I taught the wrist snap because that was what I was taught--until I had evidence to study and create an informed opinion.

One of Led Zepplins song have lyrics like this:

http://home.att.net/~morelyrics/Led_Zeppelin_34.jpg

How Many More Times,
Treat me the way you wanna do?
How Many More Times,
Treat me the way you wanna do?
When I give you all my love,
Please, please be true.
I'll give you all I've got to give,
Rings, pearls, and all.

How many more times will we give all of our love, rings, and pearls of wisdom and yet still, players will still try and snap, insist they snap, etc....how many more times? lol

[Tim Tennis]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnYandell
...But it doesn't, and it's not. The proof is in the high speed video. You can look at hundreds of serves frame by frame--and I have--and you won't ever see the wrist "break" forward at or after contact.


Good one Tim says, "Of course you will and they do, it is just incorporated into the entire motion."


Quote:
These things are minor consequences. People focus on them and miss the core aspect of the motion upward to the ball. These are the extension or straightening of the elbow...


Good one. Tim says, and the contraction of the forearm muscles/wrist, again it is all tied in but you are "bringing it"


Quote:
Now, you want your wrist really relaxed. I've talked to Peter Burwash about this and this is really what he thinks is the key.


Good one. Tim says, Of course, so you can get that wrist snap/usage into the entire motion


Quote:
But the players who work so hard to "snap" tend not to maximize these more fundamental aspects. This creates the exact opposite of the effect they wish.


Good one. Tim says, I agree but it is important.


Quote:
What I have found though is that players and coaches who want to believe in the myth of the wrist snap will often defend it to the death.


Then to death it shall be...arrrrrrgggg... Tim says, That is funny William.


Quote:
I taught the wrist snap because that was what I was taught--until I had evidence to study and create an informed opinion.

Tim says, I bet when you taught the serve you just did not just say, "snap your wrist" did you? Even way back then I bet you realized there was a whole lot more to the serve, didn't ya? Sure you did.


One of Led Zepplins song have lyrics like this:

http://home.att.net/~morelyrics/Led_Zeppelin_34.jpg

How Many More Times,
Treat me the way you wanna do?
How Many More Times,
Treat me the way you wanna do?
When I give you all my love,
Please, please be true.
I'll give you all I've got to give,
Rings, pearls, and all.

How many more times will we give all of our love, rings, and pearls of wisdom and yet still, players will still try and snap, insist they snap, etc....how many more times? lol

Tim says, That is good William. I am searching through my Peter, Paul and Mary CDs to find a come back, maybe Puff the Magic Dragon. LOL

[Bungalo Bill]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnYandell
...But it doesn't, and it's not. The proof is in the high speed video. You can look at hundreds of serves frame by frame--and I have--and you won't ever see the wrist "break" forward at or after contact.


Good one Tim says, "Of course you will and they do, it is just incorporated into the entire motion."


Quote:
These things are minor consequences. People focus on them and miss the core aspect of the motion upward to the ball. These are the extension or straightening of the elbow...


Good one. Tim says, and the contraction of the forearm muscles/wrist, again it is all tied in but you are "bringing it"


Quote:
Now, you want your wrist really relaxed. I've talked to Peter Burwash about this and this is really what he thinks is the key.


Good one. Tim says, Of course, so you can get that wrist snap/usage into the entire motion


Quote:
But the players who work so hard to "snap" tend not to maximize these more fundamental aspects. This creates the exact opposite of the effect they wish.


Good one. Tim says, I agree but it is important.


Quote:
What I have found though is that players and coaches who want to believe in the myth of the wrist snap will often defend it to the death.


Then to death it shall be...arrrrrrgggg... Tim says, That is funny William.


Quote:
I taught the wrist snap because that was what I was taught--until I had evidence to study and create an informed opinion.

Tim says, I bet when you taught the serve you just did not just say, "snap your wrist" did you? Even way back then I bet you realized there was a whole lot more to the serve, didn't ya? Sure you did.


One of Led Zepplins song have lyrics like this:

http://home.att.net/~morelyrics/Led_Zeppelin_34.jpg

How Many More Times,
Treat me the way you wanna do?
How Many More Times,
Treat me the way you wanna do?
When I give you all my love,
Please, please be true.
I'll give you all I've got to give,
Rings, pearls, and all.

How many more times will we give all of our love, rings, and pearls of wisdom and yet still, players will still try and snap, insist they snap, etc....how many more times? lol

Tim says, That is good William. I am searching through my Peter, Paul and Mary CDs to find a come back, maybe Puff the Magic Dragon. LOL

It doesn't snap. It can't snap. It won't snap. It will never snap. :) Just stay loose and all else will fall into place.

[Court_Jester]

That's what I understand, too. The pronation motion will automatically produce that perceived "wrist snap." A separate snap is not necessary.


CJ

[JohnYandell]

BB: It's pretty funny don't you think?

Tim: You either need to actually look at some footage or possibly adjust your glasses prescription. Just saying something happens doesn't make it so.

But I believe it was the English philosopher David Hume who established the absolute relativism of human perception.

If BB, Tim, and I walk into a room and the walls are white and Tim insists that they are really blue, then unless we torture him and extract a confession George Bush style, he is free to believe and say what he wishes. And he can keep saying it over and over.

Who the hell is William by the way?

[J D]

Hi, John. I appreciate your overall excellent analysis. It's great to have your expertise on the boards.

I have had this conversation with BB before. As a result of that, I went and read about two dozen books and articles on the serve. I then went and watched hundreds of super slow motion of dozens of pros serving. Since you seem to enjoy and be good at technical analysis, I have two things I would like for you to address.

First, isn't the term "relaxed wrist" a misnomer. Since the muscles that grip the frame extend from the fingers through the wrist and completely up the forearm, isn't it impossible to grip anything firmly and keep the wrist completely relaxed? Wouldn't it be better to say, "Keeping the wrist as relaxed as possible?" And, since some people grip tighter than others, wouldn't it stand to reason that their "relaxed wrist" will not be as relaxed as someone with a looser grip?

Second, as we follow the kinetic chain up the body, don't we find we find that each body part begins to accelerate when the lower part starts to decelerate during the serve? The arm starts to accelerate when the shoulder begins to slow down. The forearm begins to accelerate when the upper arm begins to decelerate. BUT, when the forearm begins to decelerate, we find that the wrist has already pronated into hitting position. As a matter of fact, we find the angle of the throat of the frame increasing in its relationship to the forearm as the forearm is accelerating (in other words, the head of the frame is accelerating faster than the forearm).

Now, isn't it true that the only thing that could cause this is contraction of the wrist muscles? In fact, if the wrist were completely relaxed (as much as possible), the wrist would not begin to straighten out until after the forearm decelerated, which would put the arm and frame in the aligned hitting position at about 30% past vertical, obviously much later than it happens in real life. Since pronation is strictly in the forearm and doesn't involve the wrist, it can't account for the racquet acceleration before forearm deceleration.

So, my point isn't that I want to call it a wrist snap (although over half the famous tennis instructors of the last twenty years do). My perception is that the wrist actually does tense during the service motion as the forearm starts forward but then needs to relax as much as possible once the racquet has gained speed in order to facilitate pronation. Thus, the wrist is not just passive and does not always remain "relaxed" for the whole motion.

Your comments?

[Tim Tennis]

BB: It's pretty funny don't you think?

Tim: You either need to actually look at some footage or possibly adjust your glasses prescription. Just saying something happens doesn't make it so.

But I believe it was the English philosopher David Hume who established the absolute relativism of human perception.

If BB, Tim, and I walk into a room and the walls are white and Tim insists that they are really blue, then unless we torture him and extract a confession George Bush style, he is free to believe and say what he wishes. And he can keep saying it over and over.

Who the hell is William by the way?

I will go to you site, which is fantastic by the way, and look at some more of the serve videos. I will see if I can call one of them to your attention. Hell, you guys are torturing me already.

William is Bungalo "Bill." I like to call him William. That is my way of being condesending to him. LOL Actually, I love that guy he is very knowledgeable and expresses himself so well. I'm envious but I do the best I can.

[JohnYandell]

I am not sure that it has been established that there is such a symetric acceleration/deceleration pattern in any of the strokes. The kinetic chain is at best an analogy as well. So how precisely that all works I'll leave that for future research to clarify. But I am reasonably sure it's not how you describe.

It is all very interesting, but I'm not sure it's totally relevant in coaching. Or put it this way, it's only relevant to the extent it yields productive coaching ideas.

What I think is actually important is the actual shape of the motion and the positions the players go thru and when they do it. If they get those right the numbers I'm sure will check out.

The focus should be on the positions at the key points in the motion. Hundreds if not thousands of times in my life I have seen the effort to "snap" prevent this. But if that produces the perfect technical swing pattern for you I say go with it. It's just highly unlikely.

The problem is that the image of the "snap" implies a forward break. That does not happen. Yet it is truly and fantastically amazing how entrenched the idea is.

On any controversial issue there will be many people who will just choose to disregard the evidence no matter what. And that is the frightening thing about human nature. It leads to disaster in world politics, relationships, and business, but fortunately in tennis the only thing it leads to is bad serving.

For me the idea of giving the ball a high five with the continental grip is a great, productive image. It's very possible that there is some detectable level of muscle contraction in this motion. Brian Gordon is going to tell us all one day. But that's very different than "tremendous wrist snap" or whatever the dogma phrase of the day is today. And it's a totally different feeling.

Again, you can call the motion anything you wish. As a freshman philosophy student at Yale, I decided you can't refute David Hume and I still believe it today.

[JohnYandell]

Tim,

Yes pick a video for William and myself. We will take you to an undisclosed location and "review" it with you there...

[J D]

Thanks for the quick reply, John. First, the kinetic chain is not my idea. It is explained in several books using slow motion photography. I can look them up and list them if you want the references. As a physics teacher, I have to say that the explanation all makes sense if the arm is to be relatively relaxed.

Second, I think you misread my post. I'm not lobbying to call it a wrist snap, not at all. I agree with you, many people that try to snap their wrist create extra tension that inhibits pronation and they end up decelerating the racquet head before contact. My points were just that no one really has a completely relaxed wrist and that the wrist contracts as the elbow straightens, even if it's involuntary or even subconscious. There is no other way to explain the racquet head accelerating forward faster than the forearm in order to catch up to the arm at the point of contact.

I like your comments about shape and positions. I agree, a good teacher will easily recognize whether it's right or not. Being able to see everything is just one of the things that makes coaching tennis easier than teaching physics.

[JohnYandell]

Yep I did misread what you said--you say you don't want to call it a "wrist snap." OK then! I missed the don't part.

I'm also sure you have not invented the concept of the kinetic chain! What I am saying is that the conventional explanations of it are too simplistic for tennis and the whole concept is under attack from new researchers who know a lot more than I do.

Maybe there is some small amount muscle contraction. Or not. I certainly don't feel it. But it's been argued that the wrist can and will go up on it's own--as a result of what one researcher on our site calls "motion dependent torque."

Don't believe it? Do this little experiment. Put your hand in the racket drop position just as if you were going to serve. Now rotate your Upper Arm hard counterclock wise and just relax the rest of your arm. See what your wrist does. You can't stop it and it just goes on it's own. That's the key role played by that upper arm segment.

But that's not really my point. I think if you show a player the positions and how to move between them, they will figure out on their own what muscles to use and how much to use them. It'll look "right" and "feel" right. Far and away having an accurate picture of the motion is the most important part.

The other stuff is just academic. Academic knowledge and coaching info and playing execution are not all the same thing. They can work together, but often it's the exact opposite.

[Bungalo Bill]

My points were just that no one really has a completely relaxed wrist and that the wrist contracts as the elbow straightens, even if it's involuntary or even subconscious.

Yes, the terms relax, loose, noodle, wobbly, limp, or other terms are a "loose" description of what the wrist should be like.

There still has to be some pressure on the handle to hold the racquet from flying out so some tension will be in the tendons of the wrist since muscles are connected to tendons.

A tennis player should strive to achieve as much elasticity in the wrist and make as loose as possible while still holding the handle rather lightly. When the arm goes into the so-called "backscratch position" (another term that is commonly said), the sudden movement up to the ball be the arm should be facilitated by an abrupt lay back in the wrist because of the elasticity in it.

When the arm reaches extension at the elbow, the wrist plays catch up and is flung forward accelerating the racquet into the ball. The wrist is rotating while bringing the racquet face to the ball as planned by the server. But it is not "snapping" like a whip snaps.

[ShooterMcMarco]

The word snap actually sounds pretty painful. Unless your wrists hurt, I don't think you're snapping anything.

[gzhpcu]

As John mentions, any change in the racket head position after impact is due to joint adjustments to retain a postion of non-stress. The turn of the racket face outward is the result of the anatomical structure of the shoulder.

In additon, if the hand is flexed, a natural rotation of the hand due to the bone structure of the wrist turns the palm outward when the arm is overhead. This extreme hand flexion does not occur when serving, but occurs on an overhead smash, when the lob is struck well behind the back.

The over-all result is that the body is continually attempting to maintain a rhythmic, smooth motion and at the same time exert optimum muscular strength while eliminating unwanted stresses. Therefore, arm rotation does not aid in hitting the ball harder but is simply the natural result of a good swing.

The muscle and joint forces are tremendous during a server, and the proper technique of serving will not only produce better accuracy and speed, but reduce the likelihood of injury.

[Tim Tennis]

Hi John, I tried to respond to this post yesterday and a thunder storm came through and knocked me off the computer right before I was ready to submit it. So I will try again.

In terms of what the wrist can do, the amount of torque generated by a forward snap is far less than what happens when it gets whipped upward due to larger rotational forces.

OR

The amount of torque generated by the whipping upward due to larger rotational forces is greater when "combined" with the torque generated by a forward snap.

Thanks John, that is all that I am really after, the wrist can add significant amounts of racquet head speed. I don't care if it is more or less than the larger rotational forces, it does add to racquet head speed.

Foot Note: Now William, don't jump all over John for using the word, "SNAP"
LOL


I think it's great the wheelchair player could hit the serve so well, but that doesn't mean his technique is optimum. Or a model.

John, my gosh, that is the whole point, he is hitting the ball 70, 80 MPH without the benefit of, "larger rotational forces." All he has to use are his triceps and wrist to generate racquet head speed. Of course his technique is not "optimum."


In addtion, unless you video him and look at him frame by frame, any description of what he does, or what you think you see he does is suspect. Not just you, all humans. Your eyes film at 20 frames a sec.

John, do you really think you would need video to tell you what was lacking in his motion? In fact that would be very interesting, why don't you film a wheelchair player and explain how they generate racquet head speed. That might be a real eye opener. Gosh, I guess we are wasting our money by going to a teaching pro unless he can video us frame by frame, he won't have a clue as to what we are doing.

Hey, love you guys, great work. Yes I love you to, "William"

[JohnYandell]

Tim,

You misread the whole post. Do you realize that you are purposely attributing statements to me that I didn't make--or are you really that far out of touch with reality? I suspect the former.

I think you should stick with your snap. Obviously belief is more important to you than truth.

[Tim Tennis]

Tim,

You misread the whole post. Do you realize that you are purposely attributing statements to me that I didn't make--or are you really that far out of touch with reality? I suspect the former.

I think you should stick with your snap. Obviously belief is more important to you than truth.

John, those quotes were taken from a post you made yesterday at 5:11 PM. Not that anyone cares, I would love it if someone, neutral party, would go read the post you made and please point out to me/you any mis quote I made in my post. Apparently I put you in a position that you cannot defend so you accuse me of, "purposely attributing statements to me (you) that I didn't make." All anyone has to do is read your post. I would highly recommend you delete it before you lose your credibility.

Maybe it is the title that you are taking exception to. Granted you did not directly say that but your statement that you did make said, "the amount of torque generated by a forward snap is far less than what happens when it gets whipped upward due to larger rotational forces." What word do you not understand you are admitting that racquet head speed is created by the "forward snap?"

Talk about entrenched.

[gzhpcu]

Is the misunderstanding semantics? When I hear "wrist snap", I envision the following: I put my right arm (palm facing downward) out in front of me. I bend my wrist back (upwards), then I move the wrist vertically downwards.

This is not what happens on the serve. The wrist movement is due to the forearm rotating. It rotates along the axis of the forearm ( with the forearm). On the "snap" (as I understand it), it goes up and down vertically to the forearm.

What do the others understand by "wrist snap"?

[JohnYandell]

Oh I get it. You want to escalate. That's what turns your crank.

Here's the point your missing.

If you try to force the forward snap you interfer with the natural other rotational forces. It's more of an "either or" than a "and both."

I thought you were going to find a movie to support your point, by the way.

Phil, there is no doubt the wrist goes up to a neutral position, what the misunderstanding is here is about what happens next and how it happens.

I would just prefer to agree to disagree with you Tim. I enjoy debate but this is feeling like the deal with the Wegnerites--just blind restating of viewpoints that can't be supported with evidence. Stick with your snap.

[Bungalo Bill]

John, those quotes were taken from a post you made yesterday at 5:11 PM. Not that anyone cares, I would love it if someone, neutral party, would go read the post you made and please point out to me/you any mis quote I made in my post. Apparently I put you in a position that you cannot defend so you accuse me of, "purposely attributing statements to me (you) that I didn't make." All anyone has to do is read your post. I would highly recommend you delete it before you lose your credibility.

Maybe it is the title that you are taking exception to. Granted you did not directly say that but your statement that you did make said, "the amount of torque generated by a forward snap is far less than what happens when it gets whipped upward due to larger rotational forces." What word do you not understand you are admitting that racquet head speed is created by the "forward snap?"

Talk about entrenched.

Tim,

I have no idea why your debating this topic. I have played for years as well as John. Although I have heard the term "wrist snap", I feel a long time ago my coach was smart enough to realize that there is no such thing, even in the late 70's. My coach did not have the luxury of biomechanic experts, slo-mo film to justify his opinion. And at the time, since there was no factual evidence surrounding his conclusion, it was indeed correct.

I have never ever focused on "snapping my wrist". My training simply involved maintaining a continuous motion, developing and maintaining as loose of an arm as I could thoughout the serving motion, develop a consistent toss, and learning to allow the kinetic chain to operate properly unhindered.

I can honestly say that my serve is very powerful because of it and I can generate a very good amount of spin depending on the type of serve I am trying to hit with placement when I am in practice.

Because the serve motion is a complex series of actions the body performs, isolating and focusing on one part to add power (willfully) is indeed a mistake.

With new eivdence by experts that study the mechanics, it is indeed true, repeatedly supported that there is no such thing as a snapping wrist. It simply does not happen. The bodies tranferring of enrgy is what adds power into the ball and the more fluid one becomes the more power.

It is a loose term describing how one should leave their wrist (relaxed) through the serve motion and that is it. It should not be something focused on, it is simply a state of relaxation.

If you want to continue using the term "wrist snap" at least be on the same page as others who are in the know about what is really happening and use the term to describe a loose feeling (a well oiled hinge) in the serve motion.

I am afraid that people take this term literally when its intent is only to describe the state the wrist should be in.

[TennsDog]

Well put, Bill.

[JohnYandell]

Exactomundo.

Here are the facts:

1. At the racket drop the wrist is laid back.

2. As the racket moves upward to the contact, the hand and arm rotate and the elbow extends.

3. As the racket moves up the wrist moves from laid back to neutral.

4. After contact, the hand and arm rotation continues. So-called pronation. The arm remains straight. This structure is in tact until well out in the followthrough.

5. The motion of the wrist does not continue after contact. The wrist stays in the netural position in line with the arm.


From these facts, most observant players/coaches conclude that the rotation of the hand and arm and the elbow extension are what are driving the motion.

They shy away from the term wrist snap because that leads to the misconception that the wrist moves forward past the netural position after the hit.

Whether there is some contraction of the forearm muscles on the way up is uncertain, but irrelevant. Some experts believe that the effort to contract the forearm muscles interfers with the rotation.

What matters is making the positions. If thinking wrist snap helps a player do this I say go for it. In my experience though this tends to undermine the key elements in the upward move.

[chess9]

Great discussion John and BB! I totally agree, of course, and FWIW. :)

One of the things that helps me still deliver a little punch in my serve at my advanced age (Devonian) is the little bit of leg involvement I get. I've read all the advice about not leaping up, but I swear, when I watch some of the pros they LOOK like they are making a conscious effort to leap. This is particularly true for some of the shorter players. They appear to leap and hit, giving up some speed for a better angle into the court. Am I totally wrong about this?

I've tried consciously leaping into the ball but it screws up my serve now. Yet, when I was 20, I would leap well into the air on my serve and land on my right foot. (I'm right handed)

-Robert

[Bungalo Bill]

Great discussion John and BB! I totally agree, of course, and FWIW. :)

One of the things that helps me still deliver a little punch in my serve at my advanced age (Devonian) is the little bit of leg involvement I get. I've read all the advice about not leaping up, but I swear, when I watch some of the pros they LOOK like they are making a conscious effort to leap. This is particularly true for some of the shorter players. They appear to leap and hit, giving up some speed for a better angle into the court. Am I totally wrong about this?

I've tried consciously leaping into the ball but it screws up my serve now. Yet, when I was 20, I would leap well into the air on my serve and land on my right foot. (I'm right handed)

-Robert

There is a fine line in this area. One is jumping and the other is allowing your upward pulling force combined with your toes springing you off the ground.

Although I have a knee bend by naturally stretching my front side, it is not performed on its own. Although I spring from my toes off the ground, it is not performed alone. The sprining off the ground is the final "push-off" from a motion that is trying to reach up for the ball. I toss higher and try to meet the ball when it comes down about a foot. But because my toss is higher, I have to figure out how to get up there to have an extended arm and meet the ball at the right time (before it gains too much speed coming downward).

So, as all my efforts aim up, the last emphasis I make is with my toes helping my to launch off the ground.

It is sort of like I am doing everything to PULL myself off the ground and at the last instanst, my toes add a little spring into the motion to really launch.

The bending of the knees is to help your overall body allow kinetic energy to flow freely and to help lift the upper body upwards. When your front leg (that has the pressure) is near extention, that is the time the toes push off like your on a springboard. :)

Back by popular demand, the masta

http://www.uspta.com/html/e-lesson-Flat%20serve.swf

[Tim Tennis]

Oh I get it. You want to escalate. That's what turns your crank.

Cool, I like it, I feel like a am having a little disagree with my wife. Let me see, you accuse me of mis quoting you, I call you on the carpet for it because I did not mis quote you, now I want to escalate. OK, we can leave it at that, honey.

Here's the point your missing.

If you try to force the forward snap you interfer with the natural other rotational forces. It's more of an "either or" than a "and both.".

Cool, at least you tried to clarify your statement. That is a giant step forward.

I thought you were going to find a movie to support your point, by the way..

Cool, I did go to the site. I went to Pete, 1st Serve, Duce, Front, It would not load for me. I'll try again. I doubt it will do any good because I am afraid if I detect/interpet anything differently then what conclusions you can to it would be met with a statement, "You need glasses."

I would just prefer to agree to disagree with you Tim. I enjoy debate but this is feeling like the deal with the Wegnerites--just blind restating of viewpoints that can't be supported with evidence. Stick with your snap.

Cool, nice tactic, now I am "one of those Wegnerites." Now that is a low blow and uncalled for. You, you name caller. LOL

[Bolt]

Back by popular demand, the masta

http://www.uspta.com/html/e-lesson-Flat%20serve.swf

Sequence four of the masta's serve starts off with, "Snap your wrist at contact."

[Tim Tennis]

Tim,

I have no idea why your debating this topic.

If you want to continue using the term "wrist snap" at least be on the same page as others who are in the know about what is really happening and use the term to describe a loose feeling (a well oiled hinge) in the serve motion.


Because I firmly believe the "use" of the wrist plays a very important part in generating racquet head speed. It is not a well oiled hinge, a hinge cannot generate forward motion on it's own, the wrist can and does create its own racquet head speed in addition to what ever is generated by the, "rotational factors."

This is probably the only thing I would butt heads with you guys on but that is what I firmly, sincerely believe.

Love ya,

Best regards,

Ed

[TennsDog]

Sequence four of the masta's serve starts off with, "Snap your wrist at contact."
Yeah, I don't like that. I implies that you should consciously provide muscular contraction, which we have all seen discussed and concluded should not be done.

[JohnYandell]

Tim,

For the record I have no interest in dating you. Sorry your relationship with your wife is so acrimonious. You probably start those fights as well.

I'm also sorry if you can't understand what I write, quoting it doesn't mean you understood it.

Like I said, you can believe anything you want. I love to learn new stuff from people who point out things in the video that I've missed. In this case I've been around the block with this issue about 50 times, but you know what--come up with a few hundred pro serves in high speed where the arm stops rotating and instead the wrist goes forward after contact and I will be the first to admit I was seeing it all wrong.

I'd much rather be accurate than right. I'm on record more than once admitting where I think my previous views were incorrect or needed revision, as with the two-handed backhand thing.

The problem is you love your concept and can't accept the fact that other people with informed opinions disagree. Live with it! No one is telling you not to believe whatever it is you want to believe. Just stop trying to twist my words around to make it seem like you are correct according to my view. That's the only thing I ask.

[Bungalo Bill]

Because I firmly believe the "use" of the wrist plays a very important part in generating racquet head speed. It is not a well oiled hinge, a hinge cannot generate forward motion on it's own, the wrist can and does create its own racquet head speed in addition to what ever is generated by the, "rotational factors."

This is probably the only thing I would butt heads with you guys on but that is what I firmly, sincerely believe.

Love ya,

Best regards,

Ed

Ed, the wrist is a bunch of tendons, it is not muscle. If the muscles are relaxed, the connecting points (ligaments which connects bone to bone, and the tendons which connect muscle to muscle) are allowed to move freely nearly unsupported. It is as simple as that. When you force something you are actually tensing your muscles up which leads into what John is saying.

Forcing your wrist forward while it is in an extended and stretched state, can place tremendous stress on the tendons not only from the weight of the racquet, but also at impact. You are basically short circuiting all the shock directly into the wrist tendons and not up the entire arm to settle in the shoulder muscles. It is best to allow natural forces bring the wrist/hand forward.

The hand, wrist, and forearm do not whip. They act as a whip as a metaphor or as a visual example of how loose the arm should be. It is only a saying.

The wrist, when the muscles are in a relaxed state, allow the tendons to stretch without putting resistance against them to stop them.

Anyway, you are my friend and you are entitled to believe what you want to believe, I won't argue with you. However understand one thing, all the evidence is contrary. :)

[Bungalo Bill]

Sequence four of the masta's serve starts off with, "Snap your wrist at contact."

I know, it is stupid.

[JohnYandell]

The funny thing is that the clip was shot by us (Advanced Tennis). We share data with USPTA and gave them that clip and my friend Fred Viancos authorized that script.

No that's tough when you give people the evidence that proves the opposite of what they claim on an offficial pro teaching website!

We had a good laugh over it after I told him he was off his ass and he asked me how many ATP points I had--zero, unlike him (he got 1 or something...) But that's the point, there is never gonna be complete agreement about these issues.

[Tim Tennis]

Ed, the wrist is a bunch of tendons, it is not muscle. If the muscles are relaxed, the connecting points (ligaments which connects bone to bone, and the tendons which connect muscle to muscle) are allowed to move freely nearly unsupported. It is as simple as that. When you force something you are actually tensing your muscles up which leads into what John is saying.

We are friends and I have all the respect in the world for you but the above is double speak. What in the hell, I think I am in Hotel California, please bring me my wine, I need it. Let's go through some connection issues, OK and the ligaments connect bone to bone, I understand that, OK and the reason is so there can be "movement," OK, and the tendons, I don't think they connect muscle to muscle. I think they connect muscle to bone but I am sure that is what you meant. So in conclusion the wrist "moves" because some bones are connected by ligaments which enable a range of motion, when the muscles contract pulling on those tendons, (which are connected to both ends of the muscle), which are connected to bones, OK, the wrist snaps, Oops, I could not resist. So all this leads into what John is saying, OK lets go.

Forcing your wrist forward while it is in an extended and stretched state, can place tremendous stress on the tendons not only from the weight of the racquet, but also at impact. You are basically short circuiting all the shock directly into the wrist tendons and not up the entire arm to settle in the shoulder muscles. It is best to allow natural forces bring the wrist/hand forward.

Let us micro analyze this statement. Yes it does put stress on the tendons, yes it is the front line of absorbing the clash of opposing directional energy but the problem is if in fact you make contact with the ball at high racquet head speeds and the tendons are already stretched back there is no where for them to go, there is no shock absorption. Tear. If you make contact with the wrist half way through it's range of motion not only will you more then likely have generated more racquet head speed which will reduce shock there is also a range of motion in the opposite direction that will allow for the absorption of energy. Now I know in the above you said the natural forces will bring the racquet forward, and I agree, I am just not to sure as to how far forward it will bring it without help from the wrist. A lot would depend on your swing path. If in fact you do make contact with a completely relaxed wrist you will lose a tremendous amount of energy. The wrist has to firm up. It is crazy to say anything else.

Other note, tennis puts tremendous stress on your entire body when you relax and load you stretch out all kinds of tendons and muscles, injuries are part of the game.
The hand, wrist, and forearm do not whip. They act as a whip as a metaphor or as a visual example of how loose the arm should be. It is only a saying.

The wrist, when the muscles are in a relaxed state, allow the tendons to stretch without putting resistance against them to stop them.

Anyway, you are my friend and you are entitled to believe what you want to believe, I won't argue with you. However understand one thing, all the evidence is contrary. :)[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=JohnYandell]

[Tim Tennis]

Tim,

For the record I have no interest in dating you. Sorry your relationship with your wife is so acrimonious. You probably start those fights as well.

I'm also sorry if you can't understand what I write, quoting it doesn't mean you understood it.


I am starting to like you, at least you came off that I mis quoted you garbage. That is a step in the right direction. Good job, keep up the good work.

[spot]

Has anyone seen an interview with pro players on whether they consiously "snap their wrist" through the contact point? I am guessing that they do consciously think about it, even if on the muscular level it really is just the force of the racket whipping through the zone. To me its like the follow through on the forehand. THe laws of physics shows that the shape of the follow through has absolutely nothing to do with the path of the ball- all that matter is the instant of contact. But its also true that if you have a consistent powerful stroke the followthrough will need to be smooth just because of the direction of the forces at the moment of impact.

[TennsDog]

I am at a loss as to why this is even still being debated.
The fact is (and I don't think I can put it any simpler): the maximum amount of energy you can get on the serve (and thus, the maximum racket head speed at contact) comes from the "whipping" action of the wrist being dragged up and forced around by the shoulder and arm, NOT by the muscular contractions of the forearm, which would lead to a "snapping" of the wrist through contact.
I know some people don't like the whip analogy, but tough, I'm gonna use it...when you hit a technically correct serve (i.e. w/o consciously snapping your wrist), the entire arm starting at the shoulder and ending with the tip of the racket acts in much the same fashion as a whip. That is to say that essentially an impulse, or wave, is generated at the shoulder (whip handle) and it traverses continuously through the arm, elbow, and forearm (main length of whip). Once the wave travels all the way to the wrist and racket, they are not connected on the opposite side, so they are free to whip (or "snap", of you must use the word) rather violently. It is also similar to swinging a rope in a circle. The part you hold on to does not rotate at a very fast linear velocity, but since the whole rope must rotate with the same angular velocity, the end must travel much faster linearly to keep up (hence the phrase "wrist playing keep-up"). Consider this, which is easier to crack: a 2' whip or a 5' whip? Clearly, the 5' whip is much easier to crack. By intentionally forcing the wrist through contact with the forearm muscles, you are effectively shortening the whip action of your serving arm from the length of shoulder to racket tip down to just wrist to racket tip (taking off almost 3 feet). Again, this is less effective at producing racket head speed.
I fail to see how there is any evidence contrary to this.

[Bungalo Bill]

We are friends and I have all the respect in the world for you but the above is double speak.

LOL, doublespeak. You mean I am saying a bunch crap and have no lcue what I am saying because I dont know what I am talking about. I say this, and then say that. That is pretty darn clear to me.


in conclusion the wrist "moves" because some bones are connected by ligaments which enable a range of motion, when the muscles contract pulling on those tendons, (which are connected to both ends of the muscle), which are connected to bonesOK, the wrist snaps, Oops, I could not resist. So all this leads into what John is saying, OK lets go.

No, the wrist doesnt move except in a rotating fashion. It is your HAND that moves forward and that has already been discussed. THE HAND MOVES FORWARD FROM A LAID BACK POSITON TO A NEUTRAL POSTION AT CONTACT.


Let us micro analyze this statement. Yes it does put stress on the tendons, yes it is the front line of absorbing the clash of opposing directional energy but the problem is if in fact you make contact with the ball at high racquet head speeds and the tendons are already stretched back there is no where for them to go, there is no shock absorption. Tear.

Wrong, if the tendons are stretched back and there is no place for them to go, there still an issue called amount of pressure. Tendons still have some elasticity but obviously less then muscles do. The pressure against the tendon when pressure is applied when it is in the maximum position has to be greater then what the strength of the tendon can handle.

If you make contact with the wrist half way through it's range of motion not only will you more then likely have generated more racquet head speed which will reduce shock there is also a range of motion in the opposite direction that will allow for the absorption of energy. Now I know in the above you said the natural forces will bring the racquet forward, and I agree, I am just not to sure as to how far forward it will bring it without help from the wrist.

The looseness in the arm, reduced tension in the wrist. A loose wrist acts "AS A WELL-OILED HINGE". It allows the hand to return to its natural position, which is what you want at contact. The wrist does not snap at this time. PERIOD.allow times for the wrist to go forward.


A lot would depend on your swing path. If in fact you do make contact with a completely relaxed wrist you will lose a tremendous amount of energy. The wrist has to firm up. It is crazy to say anything else.

Well if it firms up how can it snap? LOL The wrist remains loose throughout the swing. There is always some tension in the wrist from holding the handle. WE ALREADY SAID THIS - READ ABOVE THREADS. You are talking nonsense now.

[gzhpcu]

John is a pioneer in using video to explore the biomechanics of tennis. I know of nobody else who has looked into the game in such a consistent, analytical fashion as he has. Bungalo Bill is a contributor on his excellent site. Thanks to both of you for sharing your experience.

[chess9]

There is a fine line in this area. One is jumping and the other is allowing your upward pulling force combined with your toes springing you off the ground.

Although I have a knee bend by naturally stretching my front side, it is not performed on its own. Although I spring from my toes off the ground, it is not performed alone. The sprining off the ground is the final "push-off" from a motion that is trying to reach up for the ball. I toss higher and try to meet the ball when it comes down about a foot. But because my toss is higher, I have to figure out how to get up there to have an extended arm and meet the ball at the right time (before it gains too much speed coming downward).

So, as all my efforts aim up, the last emphasis I make is with my toes helping my to launch off the ground.

It is sort of like I am doing everything to PULL myself off the ground and at the last instanst, my toes add a little spring into the motion to really launch.

The bending of the knees is to help your overall body allow kinetic energy to flow freely and to help lift the upper body upwards. When your front leg (that has the pressure) is near extention, that is the time the toes push off like your on a springboard. :)

Back by popular demand, the masta

http://www.uspta.com/html/e-lesson-Flat%20serve.swf

"Explode up into the ball" and "snap your wrist at contact". :) I think the exploding part is more important as we age. I've found I look like a slow-motion video of Sampras' with Parkinson's. I need a coach from Al Quaida if I'm going to explode. :) Anyway, I notice she says nothing about LEAPING.

Thanks for the free lesson! I just saved $50.

-Robert

[Tim Tennis]

OK, I went to the site again, which is fantastic.

Ref: The Serve and Tennis Science - Brian Gordon

"There is little doubt, however, the motion in the wrist joint is actually extensive and a significant contributor to racquet head speed. This is very clear in my results and the results of other researchers."

"In practical terms, "Torque" is simply the turning or rotational effect caused by a force. In the case of the serve, applying torque to a body segment tends to cause that segment to rotate. But torque can be applied as a result of direct muscular action, or as a result of the motion of adjacent body segments. The latter form of application is termed "motion-dependent torque." This is a major source of torque (and therefore segment rotation) in rapid motion of linked segments (i.e. upper arm, forearm, and hand/racquet in the serve)."

Please note he said," But torque can be applied as a result of direct muscular action." This is very important as we move to the next quote.

"One could anecdotally argue that much of the wrist joint motion measured during the approach to contact during the serve is passively accomplished through motion-dependent torque. This joint motion, combined with that actively caused by muscular activity early in the upward swing, leads to impressive joint rotation speed leading into contact. So impressive, that any last ditched effort to increase it at contact by consciously "snapping the wrist" would likely be fruitless."

Please note he said, "This joint motion, combined with that actively caused by muscular activity early in the upward swing, leads to impressive joint rotation speed leading into contact." So what word do you not understand, the wrist has increased and added to the racquet head speed and it was not a passive roll. (Hi William, you need to tell Brian it is the hand not the wrist.)

He also said, "So impressive, that any last ditched effort to increase it at contact by consciously "snapping the wrist" would likely be fruitless." I agree the wrist has already made its contribution to racquet head speed. I would take this to mean the wrist is anything but loose and relaxed at the contact point. It is straining for all its worth to keep up with the rotation forces to adjust the racquet face to achieve a successful serve. This is probably very true with high performance players because in general their greater range of motion and superior mechanics do generate tremendous amounts of motion-dependent torque but on the lower levels the restricted range of motion, poor mechanics, the wrist more then likely contributes a greater % to the racquet head speed which is very evident if you observe a wheelchair player.

Thanks Brian, fantastic

Have a good day John and William. I love you guys keep up the good work.

Ed

[gzhpcu]

Are you an expert in biomechanics Ed? What are you assertions based on? If your wrist is not loose, you lose all flexibility. If you do the biomechanically correct movement and keep loose, everything happens automatically. Just experiment and try it out yourself.

[JohnYandell]

Good one Tim, you are actually trying to do research. But really we know that's not true.

Obviously, Brian's work, in conjunction with the high speed video, is the basis for everything I've written in this thread.

This is another Wegner-like example of someone who refuses to look at what is right in front of his nose because he is blinded by belief.

What were you thinking when you read this part of the article?

Brian writes:

"John's argument is that any motion of the wrist is a reaction to the motion of other segments and not a conscious effect of muscular activity."

"Basically I agree with this argument. I also agree the benefit of the age old advice of snapping the wrist is probably insignificant although additional research is needed to determine this conclusively."

You were probably thinking something like: "This does not compute..ignore...ignore."

In your previous posts you tried to twist my words around to make it seem I agreed with you. Now you are doing the same with Brian.

It's pathetic.

[JCo872]

The funny thing is that the clip was shot by us (Advanced Tennis). We share data with USPTA and gave them that clip and my friend Fred Viancos authorized that script.

No that's tough when you give people the evidence that proves the opposite of what they claim on an offficial pro teaching website!

We had a good laugh over it after I told him he was off his ass and he asked me how many ATP points I had--zero, unlike him (he got 1 or something...) But that's the point, there is never gonna be complete agreement about these issues.

That lesson also says "Raise your racket arm and tossing arm up together at the same time" even though Pete clearly does not raise both arms in synchrony.

[Tim Tennis]

John you are too funny. You are calling me names again, shame on you. I present you with data directly from your site and you attack it because I was selective.


This is another Wegner-like example of someone who refuses to look at what is right in front of his nose because he is blinded by belief.

John read it again, it is directly from your site. it is his conclusions from his research data. You can't stand what he said, maybe before you pump yourself as some "great tennis guru" you ought to pay more attention to your contributors. I will but it in front of your nose again for you to read. Gosh I am patient. Please address what "your contributor said below". His conclusions are so clear.

Ref: The Serve and Tennis Science - Brian Gordon

"There is little doubt, however, the motion in the wrist joint is actually extensive and a significant contributor to racquet head speed. This is very clear in my results and the results of other researchers."

"In practical terms, "Torque" is simply the turning or rotational effect caused by a force. In the case of the serve, applying torque to a body segment tends to cause that segment to rotate. But torque can be applied as a result of direct muscular action, or as a result of the motion of adjacent body segments. The latter form of application is termed "motion-dependent torque." This is a major source of torque (and therefore segment rotation) in rapid motion of linked segments (i.e. upper arm, forearm, and hand/racquet in the serve)."

"One could anecdotally argue that much of the wrist joint motion measured during the approach to contact during the serve is passively accomplished through motion-dependent torque. This joint motion, combined with that actively caused by muscular activity early in the upward swing, leads to impressive joint rotation speed leading into contact. So impressive, that any last ditched effort to increase it at contact by consciously "snapping the wrist" would likely be fruitless."


Brian writes:

"John's argument is that any motion of the wrist is a reaction to the motion of other segments and not a conscious effect of muscular activity."

"Basically I agree with this argument. I also agree the benefit of the age old advice of snapping the wrist is probably insignificant although additional research is needed to determine this conclusively."

You were probably thinking something like: "This does not compute..ignore...ignore."

In your previous posts you tried to twist my words around to make it seem I agreed with you. Now you are doing the same with Brian.
It's pathetic.

John, the above you quoted was a lead in to Brians "finding/conclusions." Please note how skillfully he appeased your ego and carved in stone opinon, with, "John's arguement" and then with "Basically I agree," which my take is, he does not agree entirely with your position. Then after he has appeased your ego he goes on and says, actually he blows you out of the water and you did not even realize it. I will post it again.

"There is little doubt, however, the motion in the wrist joint is actually extensive and a significant contributor to racquet head speed. This is very clear in my results and the results of other researchers."

Best regards,

Ed

[Tim Tennis]

Are you an expert in biomechanics Ed? What are you assertions based on? If your wrist is not loose, you lose all flexibility. If you do the biomechanically correct movement and keep loose, everything happens automatically. Just experiment and try it out yourself.

No I am not. Common sense, experience, logic, oh yeah, and what I just learned from Brian off of John,s site.

Best regards,

Ed

[Bolt]

"There is little doubt, however, the motion in the wrist joint is actually extensive and a significant contributor to racquet head speed ..."

I don't see how this necessarily means that the "motion in the wrist joint" is created by a wrist snap.

[Bungalo Bill]

I don't see how this necessarily means that the "motion in the wrist joint" is created by a wrist snap.

It doesnt. Just like a hinge in a door does not snap when you close it, the wrist does not snap in the serve motion. A loose arm/wrist/hand helps create a lot elasticity in the arm. This looseness allows kinetic energy to flow through all the way to the hand coming forward.

When the hand comes forward do to decellerating parts of the arm, it meets the ball in a NEUTRAL position. It does not "snap" at that point. Having a relaxed arm simply allows the hand to come forward from a laid back position to a neutral normal position.

I am done talking about this because some people will never believe it even when EXPERTS say it doesn't happen. That is okay, sometimes it simply takes time for all of us to learn certain things. I am pretty much done here unless of course someone says something ridiculous again. :)

Ed and I are friends and this disagreement will no way come between us. He is a very good player and a great man. I want to keep the friendship rather argue technical details. His friendship is worth more to me. Plus, if I am ever in Tennessee or Kentucky (which ever state he lives in, I forgot), I don't want to be blind sided and taken in the back country for an old fashion whoopin. :)

[JohnYandell]

Hey Timmy if the shoe fits, other people will see that it fits.

Your defense is exactly the same as the Wegner guys--sorry. After more than a few years of listening to people trying to force their beliefs about technique on others, I can recognize the type, unfortunately.

I made the point earlier that the wrist joint moved significantly and that this was a major contributor to racket head speed.

You are fond of quoting me, so why don't you go back and quote that post. Oh wait a minute you'd rather make statements that are exactly the same as the ones I have made as "evidence" that undermine my view. Truly, that is ridiculous.

My big point is that the wrist doesn't break forward. That this is what is usually called the "wrist snap." It doesn't happen with good players and those that do it limit themselves by reducing the role of the rotations that really generate the racket head speed.

I've also said that I am not sure what exact muscle activity is involved in raising the wrist to that netural position, if any. Brian thinks it exists and he's usually right, so I am waiting for that data. The point is about the positions.

I've said it before if you thinking snapping gets you there, go for it.

Apparently you consider agreeing with me to be "pandering." Don't you think that's a little insulting to a respected research you don't even know?

[JohnYandell]

Hey Timmy if the shoe fits, other people will see that it fits.

Your defense is exactly the same as the Wegner guys--sorry. After more than a few years of listening to people trying to force their beliefs about technique on others, I can recognize the type, unfortunately.

I made the point earlier that the wrist joint moved significantly and that this was a major contributor to racket head speed.

You are found of quoting me, so why don't you go back and quote that post. Oh wait a minute you'd rather make statements that are exactly the same as the ones I have made as "evidence" that undermine my view. Truly, that is ridiculous.

My big point is that the wrist doesn't break forward. That this is what is usually called the "wrist snap." It doesn't happen with good players and those that do it limit themselves by reducing the role of the rotations that really generate the racket head speed.

I've also said that I am not sure what exact muscle activity is involved in raising the wrist to that netural position, if any. Brian thinks some exists and he's usually right, so I am waiting for that data. The point is about the positions.

I've said it before if you thinking snapping gets you there, go for it. For most people that's a disaster.

Apparently you consider agreeing with me to be "pandering." Don't you think that's a little insulting to a respected research you don't even know?

[Bungalo Bill]

Hey Timmy if the shoe fits, other people will see that it fits.

Your defense is exactly the same as the Wegner guys--sorry. After more than a few years of listening to people trying to force their beliefs about technique on others, I can recognize the type, unfortunately.

I made the point earlier that the wrist joint moved significantly and that this was a major contributor to racket head speed.

You are found of quoting me, so why don't you go back and quote that post. Oh wait a minute you'd rather make statements that are exactly the same as the ones I have made as "evidence" that undermine my view. Truly, that is ridiculous.

My big point is that the wrist doesn't break forward. That this is what is usually called the "wrist snap." It doesn't happen with good players and those that do it limit themselves by reducing the role of the rotations that really generate the racket head speed.

I've also said that I am not sure what exact muscle activity is involved in raising the wrist to that netural position, if any. Brian thinks some exists and he's usually right, so I am waiting for that data. The point is about the positions.

I've said it before if you thinking snapping gets you there, go for it. For most people that's a disaster.

Apparently you consider agreeing with me to be "pandering." Don't you think that's a little insulting to a respected research you don't even know?

Old wave article to support your view. How about lets edit this a little and post this article up on your site John. :)

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=216501&postcount=8

[JohnYandell]

Good idea! You're on.

[tennisplayer]

John and BB,

I seriously believe what people call "wrist snap" is mainly forearm pronation. There definitely is wrist movement here, as everyone agrees, but it is not a forward snapping movement. It seems to go abruptly from a radially deviated position to an ulnar deviated position, and contributes to the circular sweep of the racquet head. Maybe there is a slight movement forward as well, but looking at the videos, it doesn't seem to be the major movement. Does that make sense?

When my coach, who is a very accomplished player, demonstrates "wrist snap" as he calls it, it is exactly what I have described above. I don't argue with him, however, since he is doing the right thing (and generates enormous pace!), and it's only a matter of terminology.

[Bungalo Bill]

John and BB,

I seriously believe what people call "wrist snap" is mainly forearm pronation.

Yes that is correct. But the people calling it a wrist snap dont want to come to conclusion that the wrist doesn't snap and you shouldn't concentrate on it. The wrist simply acts as a hinge between the forearm and the hand. It lets the hand come forward to a neutral position.

[ZPTennis]

yeah i dont like that term. Seems very amateur-ish. :)

[gzhpcu]

John and BB,

I seriously believe what people call "wrist snap" is mainly forearm pronation. There definitely is wrist movement here, as everyone agrees, but it is not a forward snapping movement. It seems to go abruptly from a radially deviated position to an ulnar deviated position, and contributes to the circular sweep of the racquet head. Maybe there is a slight movement forward as well, but looking at the videos, it doesn't seem to be the major movement. Does that make sense?

When my coach, who is a very accomplished player, demonstrates "wrist snap" as he calls it, it is exactly what I have described above. I don't argue with him, however, since he is doing the right thing (and generates enormous pace!), and it's only a matter of terminology.

For those unfamiliar with ulnar deviation:

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7007/ulnar7kz.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[TennsDog]

Haha, nice.

[tennisplayer]

For those unfamiliar with ulnar deviation:

<Image removed>

Thanks, gzhpcu. That's exactly what I meant.

[Marius_Hancu]

One should first read this thread:

Primary muscles used for serving
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=29058
(check esp the "waterfall" approach by Bungalo Bill)

[tennispr()]

Yeahalwhelaskhe

[TennsDog]

Yeahalwhelaskhe
Ok?

[GuyClinch]

I don't conciously snap my wrist but I do twist my entire forearm. That's right isn't it?

For example in basketball there is a wrist snap on a jumper (at least the way I shoot them). But in tennis you don't need that movement and can let your wrist just do whatever it wants (hence the loose wrist).

Your just rotate your forearm so that the racquet goes from sideways so that it can strike the ball. The timing of this rotation determines the spin you put on the ball. And least that's how I think of it. (BTW I just don't get this "brush up" stuff).

The only analogy I can think of (and my karate is rusty to say the least) is that in a karate punch your supposed to twist your arm so that your knuckles turn through the punch. This is said to give you more power.

Pete

[Bungalo Bill]

I don't conciously snap my wrist but I do twist my entire forearm. That's right isn't it?

For example in basketball there is a wrist snap on a jumper (at least the way I shoot them). But in tennis you don't need that movement and can let your wrist just do whatever it wants (hence the loose wrist).

Your just rotate your forearm so that the racquet goes from sideways so that it can strike the ball. The timing of this rotation determines the spin you put on the ball. And least that's how I think of it. (BTW I just don't get this "brush up" stuff).

The only analogy I can think of (and my karate is rusty to say the least) is that in a karate punch your supposed to twist your arm so that your knuckles turn through the punch. This is said to give you more power.

Pete

I dont know, it happens so fast for me and I am not even thinking of how my wrist works when I hit the ball. I just have a loose arm at the elbow and go after the ball.

[bee]

Mostly semantics. Just hit the ball.

[Bungalo Bill]

Mostly semantics. Just hit the ball.

Yes, just hit the ball! Very good.

[TennsDog]

Yes, just hit the ball! Very good.
Man, why didn't I think of that?! If I knew that was the key to tennis years ago, maybe I could be pro by now.

[bee]

Now we're getting somewhere! Yes!

You see, it makes no difference whether you call it a wrist snap or forearm pronation. No difference at all. You'll find, as you go through life, there are those who over-analyze things. Just get on with it. It'd explain all this further, but I have real life stuff to do.

You're making progress. Continue with your thoughts. Continue talking amongst yourselves, but not too much and not for too long. Life is too short.

I do look forward, however, to riding one day with Bungalo. I picture us galloping across an open plain with Bungalo wearing his buckskin jacket with those tassle things. The days of long wranglings and bickering are far in the past. I turn to him and say, "Hey Bung, remember that debate about the wrist snap..."

He gives me a wide smile. A joyous, carefree smile that fills with laughter. I mean, he's really laughing, and says, "Man, let's just ride!"

And we ride and laugh and holler for hours and hours.

[Bungalo Bill]

Man, why didn't I think of that?! If I knew that was the key to tennis years ago, maybe I could be pro by now.

lol, wanna go? Bring it on.

[bee]

Peace be with you, brothers.

[TennsDog]

lol, wanna go? Bring it on.
You want a piece of me, old man??

[Court_Jester]

I saw this last night on the RSI website:

Science: Wrist Snap in the Serve (http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/issues/200607/200607science.html)

[Bungalo Bill]

You want a piece of me, old man??

Any day. You dont have enough.

[TennsDog]

Next time I'm in Idaho...

[bee]

You'll grow out of it.

[TennsDog]

Man, Bill. Is your objective on this forum to completely distract every thread from itself?

[bee]

Adois amigos

[TennsDog]

Adois amigos
??

[Bungalo Bill]

Man, Bill. Is your objective on this forum to completely distract every thread from itself?

The thread is done can't you see that. Whatever is said now is meaningless, already been said, finished, complete. Comprende? No wrist snap. Just hit the darn ball.

[TennsDog]

Yes, Sir.
(this part is just cuz I had to make it at least 10 characters)

[Tim Tennis]

The thread is done can't you see that. Whatever is said now is meaningless, already been said, finished, complete. Comprende? No wrist snap. Just hit the darn ball.

Hello William, well we agree on that. Tennis Dog, snap out of it.

[Bungalo Bill]

Hello William, well we agree on that. Tennis Dog, snap out of it.

LOL

[TennsDog]

Hello William, well we agree on that. Tennis Dog, snap out of it.
Ok, first of all, I am TennsDog, not TennisDog, who is a new user unaffiliated with me and who hopefully will not get confused with me in postings.

Second of all, snap out of what?

[Bungalo Bill]

Ok, first of all, I am TennsDog, not TennisDog, who is a new user unaffiliated with me and who hopefully will not get confused with me in postings.

Second of all, snap out of what?

You are still a screamer. :)

[TennsDog]

You are still a screamer. :)
Nope. I'm an exertive grunter.

Nice try, though, but no unravelling going on here.

[Bungalo Bill]

Nope. I'm an exertive grunter.

Nice try, though, but no unravelling going on here.

Oh you didnt know? With people like you I turn up the heat slowly. Just looking for that right key. It is around here someplace. :)