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View Full Version : Where will Martina Navratilova be placed in history?


TXKiteboarder
07-04-2006, 03:30 PM
I just read her wimby and she mentioned that she is retiring end of this year. I am kind of shocked that nobody hasnt bringup the pt. that this will her last wimby.

Check out her career records: it beats Agassi hands down.
http://www.wimbledon.org/en_GB/bios/profile/ws/wtan007.html

Here is the stats summary:
singles titles: 170
doubles titles: 131

singles majors won: 18
doubles majors won: 30

I am really surprised that she doesnt get the same or greater respect than agassi.

by the way: she plays mixed doubles tomorrow...


she has be a prime GOAT, right?

KBalla08
07-04-2006, 03:54 PM
to me, best woman tennis player ever. even better than graff. just look at the amount of grand slams and theres your answer. she is an all around player, singles, dubs, mixed dubs, man thats amazing, and shes playing at the age of what, 49? danng

superman1
07-04-2006, 04:10 PM
What do you mean by comparing her career to Agassi? That's comparing women's tennis to men's tennis, it's not even in the same ball park.

Of course she commands as much respect as Agassi, she's probably the greatest female player of all time. But she's retiring from doubles, so there is a difference.

skip1969
07-04-2006, 04:24 PM
well, she's done things that no other female tennis player has, so that should set her pretty high on the list, i'd say. and i ain't just talking titles or slams, either. you could say she was a revolutionary in terms of the fitness mindset she brought to the game. that alone makes her a pioneer in the game.

i didn't know she was officially calling it quits this year. she's still in the doubles and mixed. you'd think (since all the americans got spanked) that the dorks at nbc and espn would give her a little airtime. i would think she'd inspire both the die-hard and the casual american more than any other american player right now. she's active at a high level, and at her age. she's a great spokesperson for the game, in general. she's still competative and obviously still enjoys and loves the game.

kooyah
07-04-2006, 05:47 PM
she has be a prime GOAT, right?

Um, yeah. Where have you been for the last decade or so? She and Steffi Graf have always been considered to be the greatest of all time.

superman1
07-04-2006, 06:24 PM
Yeah, why is this being discussed now? This was discussed a long time ago when she stopped playing singles. It has always been her and Steffi Graf at the top.

Exile
07-04-2006, 06:38 PM
Man, everyone is leaving. Everything is changing. It's so uneasing to know that new faces we may or may not like will come and make things better or worse.

One truth prevails: Racket companies will still sell cheaper frames for high prices.

Condoleezza
01-06-2007, 09:42 AM
to me, best woman tennis player ever. even better than graff. just look at the amount of grand slams and theres your answer. she is an all around player, singles, dubs, mixed dubs, man thats amazing, and shes playing at the age of what, 49? danng

I don't agree.
Graf vs. Navratilova is quality vs. quantity, IMO.
Graf played against tougher competition, lifted women's tennis onto a different plane (popularity-wise too!).

Condi

bribeiro
01-06-2007, 10:12 AM
I don't think women should be even compared to men, men's tennis is just that much harder and competitive.

chiru
01-06-2007, 12:00 PM
I don't think women should be even compared to men, men's tennis is just that much harder and competitive.

i think most people dont compare the too. i mean sampras' 14 looks like childs play compared to margaret court and graf and such in terms of slam wins. but where sampras' accomplishments stand alone in his field, theres a buncha women with circa 20 slams.

Warriorroger
01-06-2007, 01:07 PM
Navratilova and Graf are in the same class. Although they have never met at both their peaks, a young Graf vs a peak Navratilova and an aging Navratilova vs a peak Graf is maybe a bit in balance. It is fitting that they were tied in their head to head meetings. Navratilova set the standards so that a player like Graf could continue it and players after her also did.

And for Chiru; there are not a bunch of women with 20 slams or more; only 2.

Condoleezza
01-06-2007, 01:45 PM
Navratilova and Graf are in the same class. Although they have never met at both their peaks, a young Graf vs a peak Navratilova and an aging Navratilova vs a peak Graf is maybe a bit in balance. It is fitting that they were tied in their head to head meetings. Navratilova set the standards so that a player like Graf could continue it and players after her also did.

And for Chiru; there are not a bunch of women with 20 slams or more; only 2.


I don't think that Navratilova was "aging" in 1988. Don't forget that she won her first slam at age 21, her third slam at 25, her last slam at 33 and made her last slam final at 37. In 1988 she was 31.
She had a streak of 70-3 win/losses in 1989/90. All those losses came against - Steffi Graf.
She had only 5 years with a better winning percentage than 1988 & 1989.

BTW, Graf didn't need Navratilova to set any standards so she could "continue" anything .... :D

Condi

Warriorroger
01-06-2007, 02:07 PM
I don't think that Navratilova was "aging" in 1988. Don't forget that she won her first slam at age 21, her third slam at 25, her last slam at 33 and made her last slam final at 37. In 1988 she was 31.
She had a streak of 70-3 win/losses in 1989/90. All those losses came against - Steffi Graf.
She had only 5 years with a better winning percentage than 1988 & 1989.

BTW, Graf didn't need Navratilova to set any standards so she could "continue" anything .... :D

Condi

You address me as Sir or by my rank, before you reply to my posts. Don't YOU forget.

Condoleezza
01-06-2007, 02:26 PM
You address me as Sir or by my rank, before you reply to my posts. Don't YOU forget.

OK, Private 2nd Class .....

Condi

superstition
01-06-2007, 08:48 PM
I don't think that Navratilova was "aging" in 1988. In 1988 she was 31.
LOL. What planet are you on? A 31 year old tennis player is aged, not just aging! That fact that she continued to have such great results just points to her genius and work ethic.

superstition
01-06-2007, 08:54 PM
Navratilova is the greatest female serve and volley player of all time. I don't think it's useful to declare any player the greatest of all time in general, because Navratilova would have never had the results she had as a baseliner, and Federer would have never had the results he's had playing Santoro-style. I think we should be more specific. For instance, "greatest male and female clay courters". Obviously Nadal would rank higher than Federer in that category. Navratilova wins GOAT in a number of categories, but not all. She admitted she learned the forehand down the line (or was it backhand?) in her 40s. Any baseliner would have that shot down.

Mick
01-06-2007, 09:11 PM
I would put Martina Navratilova at the top but that is just me.

ATXtennisaddict
01-06-2007, 10:59 PM
Top 5. She's a legend.

eunjam
01-06-2007, 11:00 PM
she's great, but unfortunately for me, she will be up there with gordie howe.

great in their sport, but huge whiners.

navratilova threw a fit that wimby placed her last match on the outer courts.

cry me a river.

Condoleezza
01-07-2007, 02:59 AM
LOL. What planet are you on? A 31 year old tennis player is aged, not just aging! That fact that she continued to have such great results just points to her genius and work ethic.

Then her winning only TWO slam before age 25 shows that she lacks genius.:D

No, Navratilova simply matured later than other players. She won her third slam at 25, made her last slam final at age 37.

Martina at age 31 can be compared to Graf at age 24/25.

Don't forget - without Graf being dominant in 1989 Navratilova would have had a 70-match winning streak that year!!!
1988 and 1989 were Martina's 6th and 7th best years anyway. She was at least very close to her peak form. Nevertheless she was thoroughly trounced by Graf on her favourite venue, Wimbledon. In 1988's Wimbledon final she lost the last 7 consecutive service games against the German superstar!

Condi

tennus
01-07-2007, 04:16 AM
I would put Martina Navratilova at the top but that is just me.

Yes I agree. Outspoken and opinionated off the court but this does not negate her ability as a tennis player. Her longevity(winning WTA singles matches in her late forties) makes ageing greats like Agassi look ordinary (and yet I do respect Agassi as one of the greatest players of all time). :)

Warriorroger
01-07-2007, 04:33 AM
Yes I agree. Outspoken and opinionated off the court but this does not negate her ability as a tennis player. Her longevity(winning WTA singles matches in her late forties) makes ageing greats like Agassi look ordinary (and yet I do respect Agassi as one of the greatest players of all time). :)


Again we should have two lists concerning greats: men and women. It's a different ballgame. Even though Steffi Graf is the last player to win the Grandslam, she wasn't mentioned in the AO 2006 when they talked about Roger Federer's chances for the Grandslam, many will say, ''will he be the first since Rod Laver'', although Steffi is the only one of the 5 (Margaret, Don, Rod, Maureen) who won the Grandslam on four different surfaces. (Rebound Ace, Clay, Grass and Concrete). That's just the way it is. Therefore I don't think it's fair comparing Navratilova vs Agassi. He was still a force at 36 in the men's circuit. Navratilova wasn't really at 36 in singles.


She and Graf belong in the same class concerning greatness, the first for her allround achievements and the latter for her single achievements on all four surfaces. I would never seperate them at the top, and I think Federer and Sampras are headed for the same.

capriatifanatic
01-07-2007, 05:42 AM
She is right up there. Only Court, Lenglen, Wills Moody, and Evert are in her league.

mctennis
01-07-2007, 06:29 AM
She will want to be placed under another female player for sure.

Condoleezza
01-07-2007, 07:00 AM
She is right up there. Only Court, Lenglen, Wills Moody, and Evert are in her league.

I agree.

The leagues are the following, IMO:

League 1 (GOAT): Steffi Graf (in a league of her own)

League 2 (all-time greats): Lenglen, Wills, Court, Evert, Navratilova.

League 3 (greats): Connolly, Bueno, King, Goolagong, Seles, S. Williams, V. Williams, Henin.


Condi

Condoleezza
01-07-2007, 07:04 AM
Again we should have two lists concerning greats: men and women. It's a different ballgame. Even though Steffi Graf is the last player to win the Grandslam, she wasn't mentioned in the AO 2006 when they talked about Roger Federer's chances for the Grandslam, many will say, ''will he be the first since Rod Laver'', although Steffi is the only one of the 5 (Margaret, Don, Rod, Maureen) who won the Grandslam on four different surfaces. (Rebound Ace, Clay, Grass and Concrete). That's just the way it is. Therefore I don't think it's fair comparing Navratilova vs Agassi. He was still a force at 36 in the men's circuit. Navratilova wasn't really at 36 in singles. ....


Navratilova was #3-5 at age 36, beat both Graf and Seles. Made a slam final at 37.
What did Agassi win after his 36th birthday?

Condi

Warriorroger
01-07-2007, 08:26 AM
Navratilova was #3-5 at age 36, beat both Graf and Seles. Made a slam final at 37.
What did Agassi win after his 36th birthday?

Condi

You address me as Sir, when you respond.

Rabbit
01-07-2007, 08:28 AM
She was at least very close to her peak form. Nevertheless she was thoroughly trounced by Graf on her favourite venue, Wimbledon.
Condi

Why don't you examine the facts before making such outlandish statements.

Graf/Navratilova 9 - 8 head to head.

They played 3 times on grass. The only straight set win in the 3 was won by Navratilova. Graf did win their final meeting on grass, Wimbledon 1989 6-2,6-7,6-1. This is hardly what I'd call a trouncing. Especially considering Navratilova was in her 33rd year playing after all of her contemporaries had retired. If anything, that says to me that the rest of the tour was not as strong.

As a matter of fact, of their 17 meetings, 8 were won in straight sets with Navratilova winning 5 of those. So, if it didn't go the distance, odds were that it went Navratilova.

For my money the Navratilova/Evert rivaly defined her peak years. That rivalry went 44-36 Navratilova and spanned 1973 - 1988 which was the beginning of Graf's years at the top.

What you're in effect saying is that Navratilova was in peak form after being on tour for 15 years and winning 15 or her 18 Grand Slam titles? You really can't be serious, can you?

There is no denying Graf's dominance during her time at the top. But to denigrate previous champions is disingenuous which is par for the course as far as you're concerned. Navratilova's longevity has qualified her to many as GOAT among women, that and her ability to win any and all and to be as dominant at doubles. She won every Grand Slam title in singles all the while competing in doubles and mixed doubles. She was the last of the old school players.

If we are to base GOAT solely on Grand Slam titles, Margaret Court is the clear GOAT. She has more Grand Slam titles than anyone and a Grand Slam to boot. So, in the final analysis, she beats Graf by 3 Grand Slam titles.

Warriorroger
01-07-2007, 08:56 AM
Why don't you examine the facts before making such outlandish statements.

Graf/Navratilova 9 - 8 head to head.

They played 3 times on grass. The only straight set win in the 3 was won by Navratilova. Graf did win their final meeting on grass, Wimbledon 1989 6-2,6-7,6-1. This is hardly what I'd call a trouncing. Especially considering Navratilova was in her 33rd year playing after all of her contemporaries had retired. If anything, that says to me that the rest of the tour was not as strong.

As a matter of fact, of their 17 meetings, 8 were won in straight sets with Navratilova winning 5 of those. So, if it didn't go the distance, odds were that it went Navratilova.

For my money the Navratilova/Evert rivaly defined her peak years. That rivalry went 44-36 Navratilova and spanned 1973 - 1988 which was the beginning of Graf's years at the top.

What you're in effect saying is that Navratilova was in peak form after being on tour for 15 years and winning 15 or her 18 Grand Slam titles? You really can't be serious, can you?

There is no denying Graf's dominance during her time at the top. But to denigrate previous champions is disingenuous which is par for the course as far as you're concerned. Navratilova's longevity has qualified her to many as GOAT among women, that and her ability to win any and all and to be as dominant at doubles. She won every Grand Slam title in singles all the while competing in doubles and mixed doubles. She was the last of the old school players.

If we are to base GOAT solely on Grand Slam titles, Margaret Court is the clear GOAT. She has more Grand Slam titles than anyone and a Grand Slam to boot. So, in the final analysis, she beats Graf by 3 Grand Slam titles.


Rabbit edit your head to head before that lunatic responds. Graf - Navratilova is 9 - 9. (BTW Graf played her best tennis in 1995/6)

Condoleezza
01-07-2007, 09:47 AM
You address me as Sir, when you respond.

PSC, nothing else ....

Condi

Swinging Simian
01-07-2007, 09:58 AM
I'd nominate the lady as one of the best volleyers in the game. I mean what is she 50 and still kicks *** at net? That includes men and women, she doesn't seem to care about gender when she's kicking ***.

Condoleezza
01-07-2007, 09:59 AM
Why don't you examine the facts before making such outlandish statements.

Graf/Navratilova 9 - 8 head to head.

They played 3 times on grass. The only straight set win in the 3 was won by Navratilova. Graf did win their final meeting on grass, Wimbledon 1989 6-2,6-7,6-1. ....

What you're in effect saying is that Navratilova was in peak form after being on tour for 15 years and winning 15 or her 18 Grand Slam titles? You really can't be serious, can you?

There is no denying Graf's dominance during her time at the top. But to denigrate previous champions is disingenuous ....


1) The 1987 Wimbledon final was the closest of the 3 Graf-Navratilova finals. In 1987 Navratilova made only 5 points more than Graf (68-63).
But in 1988 Graf was ahead with 19 (97-78) and in 1989 with 16 points (90-74).

2) Navratilova won her third (of 18!) slam at age 25. You don't want to tell me that she was "over the hill" already just 6 years later?
Compare: Graf won her third slam in 1988 at age 18. So you want to say she was "too old" at age 24???

3) I don't denigrate Navratilova. To the contrary - I proved that she was still at her peak even in 1988/89.
Don't forget that she had a 67-3 win/loss streak in 1989/90 with ALL those 3 defeats coming at the hands of - Steffi Graf.
So it is safe to say that without Graf Martina would have had a 70-match winning streak. And you want to tell me that is not "peak"?
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!

Condi

Grimjack
01-07-2007, 10:32 AM
Assume for a second, that Martina would have had her closest rival stabbed in the back, in her rival's fifth year of pro tennis. That would mean Chris Evert would become a non-factor starting in 1975.

From '75 on, Chrissie personally knocked Martina out of 8 Grand Slams.

In order to weigh even the Grand Slam total #'s between Martina and Steffi on equal footing, you have to add 8 to Martina's number to account for effect of the stabbing.

The inescapable conclusion is that Martina was a far greater player than Steffi.

Martina > Monica = Chrissie > Steffi.

superstition
01-07-2007, 11:05 AM
She will want to be placed under another female player for sure.
Wow. That's genius. uh huh uh huh uh huh

superstition
01-07-2007, 11:10 AM
Then her winning only TWO slam before age 25 shows that she lacks genius.:D
It has everything to do with fitness. Bob called her the "Great Wide Hope". Everyone knows how she gained too much weight from fast food. She did, though, have muscle in 78, which you can clearly see in her arms. It was her fat percentage that needed to improve. Plus, she had to face a young Chris Evert with wood, which made serve and volley a bit tougher.

superstition
01-07-2007, 11:17 AM
If we are to base GOAT solely on Grand Slam titles, Margaret Court is the clear GOAT. She has more Grand Slam titles than anyone and a Grand Slam to boot.
I think most analysts say Martina was the better player (once she got in shape), though. While she was aided by improvements in racquets, through a combination of tennis brilliance and a very high level of fitness, she was able to do things like have an 86-1 record in singles one year, while playing doubles/mixed simultaneously in tournaments. Did Court win mixed slam titles in her 40s? Was the field as deep in Court's time as it was during Martina's? Martina had to face Evert, Graf, and Seles. Did Court have to face players of that caliber? She had to face King somewhat, right? Who else?

Warriorroger
01-07-2007, 11:28 AM
I think most analysts say Martina was the better player (once she got in shape), though. While she was aided by improvements in racquets, through a combination of tennis brilliance and a very high level of fitness, she was able to do things like have an 86-1 record in singles one year, while playing doubles/mixed simultaneously in tournaments. Did Court win mixed slam titles in her 40s? Was the field as deep in Court's time as it was during Martina's? Martina had to face Evert, Graf, and Seles. Did Court have to face players of that caliber? She had to face King somewhat, right? Who else?


Graf has faced more opponents of great tennis than Navratilova. In 1999 she was playing the Williams in early rounds (Sydney Adidas open). Navratilova never had to face that kind of power in her days. Graf has winning record against all the generations she faced except for the head to head with Martina. So I am not denying her greatness, but Graf post 1995 had far more good opponents than Martina.

Condoleezza
01-07-2007, 01:45 PM
Assume for a second, that Martina would have had her closest rival stabbed in the back, in her rival's fifth year of pro tennis. That would mean Chris Evert would become a non-factor starting in 1975. ....


Even if - IF! - we assume that Evert would not have played for more than two years she would have been back in 1977. Maybe Navratilova would have made the USO 75 final without Evert. But would she have beaten Goolagong??
Evert didn't stop Martina in 1975-77 on any other occasion .....

Condi

Condoleezza
01-07-2007, 01:52 PM
I think most analysts say Martina was the better player (once she got in shape), though. While she was aided by improvements in racquets, through a combination of tennis brilliance and a very high level of fitness, she was able to do things like have an 86-1 record in singles one year, while playing doubles/mixed simultaneously in tournaments. Did Court win mixed slam titles in her 40s? Was the field as deep in Court's time as it was during Martina's? Martina had to face Evert, Graf, and Seles. Did Court have to face players of that caliber? She had to face King somewhat, right? Who else?


Navratilova won 15 of her 18 slams in 1981-87. Absolute clown era. Only opponent was Evert, a clay-court specialist. And then Mandlikova, Shriver, Turnbull, Jaeger types ....

Condi

alwaysatnet
01-07-2007, 06:42 PM
You would have to say fairly that Navratilova's competition for so many years was not of the highest quality.That doesn't diminish her accomplishments but make Graf's more impressive.

VikingSamurai
01-07-2007, 07:49 PM
Do your homework.

Australian Open's 11, French Open's 5, Wimbledon's 3, US Open's 5.. In all 24 singles Grand Slam Championships, and a year end personal Grand Slam.. Dont get me started on Doubles and Mixed Doubles..

Australia's Margaret Court was the greatest woman player..

Period..

Steffi Graff has 22, and then Martina is tied third with Evert at 18 singles titles..

urban
01-08-2007, 11:06 AM
i think, Wills-Moody has 19 majors, despite never playing in Australia. Some experts like Lance Tingay and Laurie Pigneon always rated Little Mo Connolly as the best. Was a hard hitting Chris Evert with nerves out of steel. Imo Martina and Graf are awfully hard to rank against each other. Martina was better on fast courts, better in doubles, had more longevity and more titles won. She was the better stylist, but had weak nerves.Steffi was the better allrounder, having won each major 4 times, better on clay, better in the clutch. While Martina worked herself into a bionic woman, Steffi was the better natural athlete. In short: Both belong on the highest level, Mo and Seles could have been the best, if their careers would have lasted longer.. When Martina was asked by the BBC in 2003 about the 3 greatest players of all time, she named Laver, Graf and herself. Vice versa, Graf has the highest respect for Navratilova.

The Gorilla
01-08-2007, 11:58 AM
Do your homework.

Australian Open's 11, French Open's 5, Wimbledon's 3, US Open's 5.. In all 24 singles Grand Slam Championships, and a year end personal Grand Slam.. Dont get me started on Doubles and Mixed Doubles..

Australia's Margaret Court was the greatest woman player..

Period..

Steffi Graff has 22, and then Martina is tied third with Evert at 18 singles titles..


margerat court was beaten by a 65 year old man!

Condoleezza
01-08-2007, 01:42 PM
Do your homework.

Australian Open's 11, French Open's 5, Wimbledon's 3, US Open's 5.. In all 24 singles Grand Slam Championships, and a year end personal Grand Slam.. Dont get me started on Doubles and Mixed Doubles..

Australia's Margaret Court was the greatest woman player..

Period..

Steffi Graff has 22, and then Martina is tied third with Evert at 18 singles titles..

AO has far less prestige than, say, Wimbledon.
We should adopt the famous 7543 system (Wimbledon 7 pts., USO 5 pts., FO 4 pts. and AO 3 pts.).

That gives Court 11x3 + 5x4 + 3x7 + 5x5 = 99 pts.
Graf: 4x3 + 6x4 + 7x7 + 5x5 = 110 pts.
Navratilova: 3x3 + 2x4 + 9x7 + 4x5 = 100 pts.
Evert: 2x3 + 7x4 + 3x7 + 6x5 = 85 pts.

Condi

Condoleezza
01-08-2007, 01:43 PM
margerat court was beaten by a 65 year old man!

Never ever.

Condi

oberyn
01-08-2007, 02:40 PM
margerat court was beaten by a 65 year old man!

Bobby Riggs was 55 when he beat Margaret Court.

VikingSamurai
01-08-2007, 02:42 PM
Gee.. How about we just have people who won the US Open only.. Like I mean, all the other tournaments arent prestigeous enough are they?

Come on, give me a break.. People who say that the Australian Open doesnt have prestige, or it doesnt count is a goose.. If it is given the status of a Grand Slam. Then its a fricken Grand Slam.. If someone didnt win the Australian Open for this reason or that. Then thats their fault..

If you are going to take away the 11 Aussie Opens from Court, purely because you think Steffi Graff should be No 1. Then all you are doing is deluding yourself of the truth and trying to change history!..

I am sorry, but history has been written, and as much as I loved Steffi Graff. She will be and always will be the No 2..

Margaret Courts Record will never be broken.. And the fact that she won so many times on different surfaces can only make her legacy that little more special. That is why Steffi's 22 singles titles, and a year end Grand Slam can put her in courts league, but still not no 1...

VikingSamurai
01-08-2007, 02:44 PM
Bobby Riggs was 55 when he beat Margaret Court.

Yeah, but, none of the women could, and if I remember correctly, thats who she was supposed to be playing in order to win those tournaments?

oberyn
01-08-2007, 02:52 PM
Yeah, but, none of the women could, and if I remember correctly, thats who she was supposed to be playing in order to win those tournaments?


LOL. I was just correcting the poster who said she lost to a 65-year-old man. ;)

I think Margaret Court is on the short list of the greatest players of all time. Her accomplishments are staggering, and her loss to Riggs in 1973 does absolutely nothing, IMO, to diminish those accomplishments.

VikingSamurai
01-08-2007, 02:59 PM
ok, sorry if I took it the wrong way.. Like I mean, although I am Australian, I am not Margaret Courts love child or anything. But when you sit down and look at the facts, as you said, it is pretty staggering. Then you can add the doubles and mixed titles aswell.. I remember as a kid, no-one was ever going to break the mens record. And then came Pete. So Australia needs to be allowed to atleast keep Courts record to be proud of.. Pete took our mens record. Or is he tied?

oberyn
01-08-2007, 03:03 PM
I remember as a kid, no-one was ever going to break the mens record. And then came Pete. So Australia needs to be allowed to atleast keep Courts record to be proud of.. Pete took our mens record. Or is he tied?

Pete's up 14-12 on Emerson.

The Gorilla
01-08-2007, 03:16 PM
margaret court was beaten by a 55 year old man.The greatest player who ever lived...

the standard of women's tennis in those days was abolutely appalling,margaret court was just a big man,back in the days when women still played women's tennis.She over powered them with her huge manly physique,she was the best of the best,and she was beaten by 55 year old pensioner with a bit of touch and guile.

VikingSamurai
01-08-2007, 03:23 PM
Yawn...........

oberyn
01-08-2007, 03:29 PM
the standard of women's tennis in those days was abolutely appalling,margaret court was just a big man,back in the days when women still played women's tennis.She over powered them with her huge manly physique,she was the best of the best,and she was beaten by 55 year old pensioner with a bit of touch and guile.

What takes a great deal of steam out of your argument is that Bobby Riggs then went out and lost to Billie Jean King.

But, yeah, you're right, one loss to a guy she'd never played before and would never play again who then went on to get beaten definitively by one of her rivals is the definitive statement of her tennis career. [rolls eyes]

The Gorilla
01-08-2007, 03:40 PM
What takes a great deal of steam out of your argument is that Bobby Riggs then went out and lost to Billie Jean King.

But, yeah, you're right, one loss to a guy she'd never played before and would never play again who then went on to get beaten definitively by one of her rivals is the definitive statement of her tennis career. [rolls eyes]

55 year old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

really really old man!!!!!

and billie jean king hasn't got mention on this list yet has she?

oberyn
01-08-2007, 03:56 PM
55 year old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

really really old man!!!!!

In one match. Riggs definitely deserves credit for it. BJK then went out and whipped Riggs in straight sets. Margaret Court then went on to win the 1973 U.S. Open (over Evonne Goolagong whom she'd already beaten in the Australian Open Final [she'd also beaten Chris Evert in the French Open Final]).

and billie jean king hasn't got mention on this list yet has she?

I think BJK is on that short list, as well.

VikingSamurai
01-08-2007, 03:56 PM
And why would she?.. Because she is an American?..

Sheeesh.. History is history.. You simply cant re-write it..

BJK was a good player.. Not doubting that..

VikingSamurai
01-08-2007, 04:00 PM
Your reply was better oberyn...:)

FiveO
01-08-2007, 04:23 PM
What takes a great deal of steam out of your argument is that Bobby Riggs then went out and lost to Billie Jean King.

But, yeah, you're right, one loss to a guy she'd never played before and would never play again who then went on to get beaten definitively by one of her rivals is the definitive statement of her tennis career. [rolls eyes]

Alot is made of that match with Bobby Riggs. One should do some heavy reading on that topic as to how the hype and protests effected the private and humble Court. Also as to whether Riggs, the ultimate hustler who regularly upped the ante, may have thrown the match to BJK in hopes of a bigger pay-day a "re-match" may have held and in the end may have been out-hustled by King.

What also puts steam back in the argument is that Margaret Court was 5-2 overall and 4-1 in major finals alone vs. BJK.

She was also was a combined 19-5 vs. her fellow Hall of Famers in slam finals.

Including:

4-1 vs. 12 time major winner BJK
3-2 vs. 7 time major winner Maria Bueno
3-1 vs. 7 time major winner Evonne Goolagong Cawley. Court's loss occurred while she was pregnant with her first child.
1-0 vs. 18 time major winner Chris Evert on the red clay of RG.

She won her first major in 1960 and her last in 1973 a span of 14 years which included a "retirement" after Wimbledon 1966 through the start of the 1968 season and a sabbatical to have her first child in 1972 when she did not return until the USO that year. Then in 1973 she won the AO, RG and USO again. She had her second child in 1974.

Court who won her last major in 1973 was 14 years older than Navratilova, was 2-5 in their h2h from 1975-77. Their last meeting was in 1977 a 5-7 6-4 6-4 win for Navratilova when she was 21 and Court 35. Court retired the same year 1977 when she learned she was pregnant with her third child.

Court, Navratilova and Graf should be mentioned in the same breath. Navratilova's career touched on each but none overlapped. Declaring a clear cut winner is ill advised. Dismissing any one of them is plain stupid.

dowjones
01-08-2007, 04:26 PM
The best female player ever.

Not a very good ambassador for the game though.

oberyn
01-08-2007, 04:32 PM
Alot is made of that match with Bobby Riggs. One should do some heavy reading on that topic as to how the hype and protests effected the private and humble Court.

There's plenty of anecdotal evidence that Court didn't take the exhibition match with Riggs nearly as seriouly as Riggs did or as BJK would take her subsequent match with Riggs. The surface arguably favored Riggs' style and his presentation of flowers to Court before the match was all part of Riggs' gamesmanship.

Also as to whether Riggs, the ultimate hustler who regularly upped the ante, may have thrown the match to BJK in hopes of a bigger pay-day a "re-match" may have held and in the end may have been out-hustled by King.

This one's been making the rounds for a while now. Obviously, I wouldn't put anything past Bobby Riggs.

What also puts steam back in the argument is that Margaret Court was 5-2 overall and 4-1 in major finals alone vs. BJK.

The steam and argument to which I was referring was the contention that Margaret Court's accomplishments are somehow diminished because she lost to Bobby Riggs. I think that Riggs' subsequent loss to BJK plus Court's record against the top women (including BJK) means that one can't define her career according to one match against Bobby Riggs in 1973.

Court, Navratilova and Graf should be mentioned in the same breath. Navratilova's career touched on each but none overlapped. Declaring a clear cut winner is ill advised. Dismissing any one of them is plain stupid.

I've said that, IMO, there's a very short list for G.O.A.T. and Margaret Court is definitely one of the players on that list, so you're preaching to the choir on that one.

VikingSamurai
01-08-2007, 04:33 PM
Agreed.... Actually I agree with the last 2 posts..

FiveO
01-08-2007, 04:39 PM
...I've said that, IMO, there's a very short list for G.O.A.T. and Margaret Court is definitely one of the players on that list, so you're preaching to the choir on that one.

My apologies, scanning back and forth, I took one of your posts out of context. We seem to be very much on the same page.

Condoleezza
01-08-2007, 10:04 PM
Gee.. How about we just have people who won the US Open only.. Like I mean, all the other tournaments arent prestigeous enough are they?

Come on, give me a break.. People who say that the Australian Open doesnt have prestige, or it doesnt count is a goose.. If it is given the status of a Grand Slam. Then its a fricken Grand Slam.. If someone didnt win the Australian Open for this reason or that. Then thats their fault..

If you are going to take away the 11 Aussie Opens from Court, purely because you think Steffi Graff should be No 1. Then all you are doing is deluding yourself of the truth and trying to change history!..

I am sorry, but history has been written, and as much as I loved Steffi Graff. ...

So much that you even can spell her name properly .....


Condi

VikingSamurai
01-08-2007, 10:49 PM
Its funny.. I am yet to meet a person that has never made a spelling mistake in their life before.. Would be an honour if I did.

So pointing out a spelling mistake is kinda like admitting that you simply have nothing better to say, or you are struggling for an interesting point to make:roll:

max8176
01-08-2007, 11:25 PM
Hey, dont feel bad, this person is notorious around here for being a "b". I think you have made very fair comments.

max8176
01-08-2007, 11:30 PM
While she is not my favorite female player, I still think MN is the greatest ever though because she can win in all surafces and in singles and doubles. Not to mention she keeps on her competitiveness at an older age. LOL

VikingSamurai
01-08-2007, 11:43 PM
Thanks.. I think everyone can agree that MN is up there as one of the greats, I think all I was trying to do was just express facts as facts. I will say that as an ambassadore, and someone that has given alot back, then Martina is number 1.. Not many of the old girls have kept going like she has..

alwaysatnet
01-09-2007, 09:19 AM
I have said before that Graf was greater but upon reflection when you add in MN's outstanding doubles record you would be hard pressed to find a greater single player than Martina Navratilova.Comparing eras is a useless exercise,however,and I think it's enough just to say she was one of the greatest.Beyond that, you can't with certainty say anything.

Condoleezza
01-09-2007, 11:31 AM
Its funny.. I am yet to meet a person that has never made a spelling mistake in their life before.. Would be an honour if I did.

So pointing out a spelling mistake is kinda like admitting that you simply have nothing better to say, or you are struggling for an interesting point to make:roll:


To mispronouce a player you "love"?
Seems to me that you don't give a shi.t for Graf but said otherwise only to give added credibility to your putting Court ahead of "Graff".

Well, caught with your pants at your ankles! :D

Condi

FiveO
01-09-2007, 12:04 PM
To mispronouce a player you "love"?
Seems to me that you don't give a shi.t for Graf but said otherwise only to give added credibility to your putting Court ahead of "Graff".

Well, caught with your pants at your ankles! :D

Condi

In keeping with your theme it's:

m-i-s-p-r-o-n-o-u-n-c-e.

Be careful you may get light headed as you bend over to pick up your knickers.

oberyn
01-09-2007, 12:14 PM
In keeping with your theme it's:

m-i-s-p-r-o-n-o-u-n-c-e.

Be careful you may get light headed as you bend over to pick up your knickers.


Well, I'll pile on here, too.

Condoleezza, as far as I can tell the spelling of Graf was at issue, not the pronunciation (and yes, the "o" is omitted for the noun as opposed to its verb forms).

Graff and Graf would (presumably) be pronounced the same way. :p

Condoleezza
01-09-2007, 12:26 PM
Well, I'll pile on here, too.

Condoleezza, as far as I can tell the spelling of Graf was at issue, not the pronunciation (and yes, the "o" is omitted for the noun as opposed to its verb forms).

Graff and Graf would (presumably) be pronounced the same way. :p

Most certainly not.
"Graf" is pronounced like "laugh", "Graff" like "rough".

Condi

oberyn
01-09-2007, 01:07 PM
Most certainly not.
"Graf" is pronounced like "laugh", "Graff" like "rough".

Condi


How can you tell how this poster, or any other, is pronouncing a particular word?

For all I know, you spell laugh correctly, but mispronounce it. I can tell whether or not you've misspelled a word in a given post, I can't tell whether you are or are not pronouncing it correctly.

For what it's worth, "Graff" like rough in graffiti. Then again, "Graff" like laugh in graffer. ;)

VikingSamurai
01-09-2007, 03:05 PM
oberyn.. I just say the best thing to do is allow this person to do all the talking.. She obviously likes to do it.. Regardless of wether she actually knows what she is talking about or not.. I dont mind if she pulls me up for spelling.. I guess some people dont have anything better to do with their time..

Chris

Condoleezza
01-09-2007, 10:29 PM
oberyn.. I just say the best thing to do is allow this person to do all the talking.. She obviously likes to do it.. Regardless of wether she actually knows what she is talking about or not.. I dont mind if she pulls me up for spelling.. I guess some people dont have anything better to do with their time..

Chris


The point is not any misspelling in general.
You said that you believe Court to be the GOAT although you "love Graff".
With this kind of reference to Graf you clearly wanted to bolster you credibility regarding your assessment of Court.

And I make a sarcastic remark that your love for Graf must not be very deep if you aren't even able to spell the (simple) name of the best female player of the last (at least) 20 years.

BTW, "Graff" is - as you may not know - an often used intentional misspelling by Anti-Grafites (Selesians, Navratilovers).

Condi

VikingSamurai
01-09-2007, 10:54 PM
yawn...........

Condoleezza
01-09-2007, 11:09 PM
yawn...........

What time is it over there in Japan, Chriss?

Condi

VikingSamurai
01-09-2007, 11:16 PM
Only 5:15pm..

VikingSamurai
01-09-2007, 11:17 PM
Nice ss on the end of Chris there too.. I guess you think you are clever?.. I guess thats why I yawned.. It is after all a message forum.. Because I cant believe you could be this funny in real life!

Condoleezza
01-10-2007, 12:35 AM
Nice ss on the end of Chris there too.. I guess you think you are clever?..

Yes, indeed I do.
I even know how to spell the names of players I love!

Condi

VikingSamurai
01-10-2007, 12:49 AM
Ok, you seem to be getting off on being difficult.. So this is where I will leave you too it and say thanks for the fun.. But in all honesty, you are a fart that has become a turd.. So in closing...Nice chattin.

Condoleezza
01-10-2007, 02:01 AM
Ok, you seem to be getting off on being difficult.. So this is where I will leave you too it and say thanks for the fun.. But in all honesty, you are a fart that has become a turd.. So in closing...Nice chattin.

That from someone who wrote "as much as I love Graff" and then can't bear to read someone write "So much that you can spell her name properly" ....

Condi

ATPballkid
01-15-2007, 08:06 PM
I agree.

The leagues are the following, IMO:

League 1 (GOAT): Steffi Graf (in a league of her own)

League 2 (all-time greats): Lenglen, Wills, Court, Evert, Navratilova.

League 3 (greats): Connolly, Bueno, King, Goolagong, Seles, S. Williams, V. Williams, Henin.


Condi

A player who is among the greatest of ALL time does not have to rely on the #1 ranked player in the world (who is just a tennager and #1 for consecutive years while winning 9 of the 11 biggest events in the sport over a period of more than 2 years) being stabbed in the back with a knife.

The Monica Seles incident in Hamburg, Germany at the end of April in 1993 -- especially when you take into consideration how dominant the young teenage Seles was in the months November 1990 through April 1993 -- SEALS it that Graf was not the best of all time.

Graf was in the middle of her career in the early 1990s -- and yet Seles as a teenager was the one ranked #1 and the one winning 9 of those 11 biggest titles between November 1990 and January 1993 -- and this, within itself, eliminates Graf from consideration as the top woman tennis player of all time.

Navratilova in her mid 30s (turned 34 in 1990 .. turned 35 in 1991 .. turned 36 in 1992 .. and turned 37 in 1993) had a winning record vs. Graf in the 1990s prior to the stabbing of Monica Seles in April 1993, including the only match Navratilova and Graf played against each other in a Grand Slam singles match during the 1990s.

Seles, of course, as a teenager in the years 1990 through 1993, had a winning record vs. Graf as well before a jealous Steffi Graf fan stabbed Seles in the back with a knife.

No way Steffi Graf is the same league as Navratilova in tennis history when you consider the truth of Steffi Graf, Gunther Parche, Martina Navratilova and Monica Seles in the years 1990-1993.

VikingSamurai
01-15-2007, 09:12 PM
ooooooooooooooo:-D h, Condi is gonna be p.i.s.s.e.d at you !!