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View Full Version : Mens tour: Selling Crass as the New Gracious?


AnonymousCoward
07-13-2006, 07:58 AM
I can't help comparing the World Cup to Wimbledon this year. From the moment Zidane's head hit Matarazzi's chest Zidane was appropriately and immediately criticized in every language across the world. Nobody excused Zidane's for being a jerk because of his athletic skill, or because it was such a quality head butt.

Yet at Wimbledon we're told how elegant Federer looks in His pretentious and unsportsmanlike I-have-three-trophies-and-you-don't cream colored bespoke dinner jacket that he parades in front of His opponents. Last year we were supposed to enjoy His boastful I-hold-the-title-and-you-don't gold shoes. Next year, He boasts, He'll tell Nike to make Him an even more ostentatious jacket to rub His 4th Wimbledon title in everyone's face. All the while we're supposed to be grateful and privileged to watch Him pat Himself on the back so hard He wears holes in His shirt.

I know that Federer isn't the first pompous jerk on the pro tour just like Zidane isn't the first player to lose his cool in the World Cup. But while FIFA is calling for more sportsmanship the pro tennis tour seems to be promoting crassness.

Is it time for new leaderhip in the ATP? Or do we just have to tune out and wait until hopefully a new generation of players emerge that have character commensurate with their skill?

stoffer
07-13-2006, 08:16 AM
AnonymousCoward? Hmm... that name suits you. Federer's jacket and Zidanes head butt are 2 very different things.

And what exactly is wrong with him wearing his "I-have-three-trophies-and-you-don't cream colored bespoke dinner jacket"? He DOES have 3 (now 4) trophies and is better than everyone else. Until someone beats him he can do whatever he wants. (Besides head butting his opponent)

OrangeOne
07-13-2006, 08:23 AM
I can't help comparing the World Cup to Wimbledon this year. From the moment Zidane's head hit Matarazzi's chest Zidane was appropriately and immediately criticized in every language across the world. Nobody excused Zidane's for being a jerk because of his athletic skill, or because it was such a quality head butt.

Yet at Wimbledon we're told how elegant Federer looks in His pretentious and unsportsmanlike I-have-three-trophies-and-you-don't cream colored bespoke dinner jacket that he parades in front of His opponents. Last year we were supposed to enjoy His boastful I-hold-the-title-and-you-don't gold shoes. Next year, He boasts, He'll tell Nike to make Him an even more ostentatious jacket to rub His 4th Wimbledon title in everyone's face. All the while we're supposed to be grateful and privileged to watch Him pat Himself on the back so hard He wears holes in His shirt.

I know that Federer isn't the first pompous jerk on the pro tour just like Zidane isn't the first player to lose his cool in the World Cup. But while FIFA is calling for more sportsmanship the pro tennis tour seems to be promoting crassness.

Is it time for new leaderhip in the ATP? Or do we just have to tune out and wait until hopefully a new generation of players emerge that have character commensurate with their skill?

Is it crass of me to say that that whole post is completely ludicrous? Or perhaps you know that it already is.

Comparing something that reaches back to the more formal, dressed, presented & old-days of tennis & sport, to something that, were it done on a street, would be jailable-assault... I just have nothing more to say.

chiru
07-13-2006, 08:25 AM
i think its funny that all the other atp players have to stomach it, and they know they cant complain until they beat him.

Grimjack
07-13-2006, 08:32 AM
LOL @ watching soccer.

psp2
07-13-2006, 08:40 AM
yaaaawwwwnnnnn...

djones
07-13-2006, 08:43 AM
AnonymousCoward? Hmm... that name suits you. Federer's jacket and Zidanes head butt are 2 very different things.

And what exactly is wrong with him wearing his "I-have-three-trophies-and-you-don't cream colored bespoke dinner jacket"? He DOES have 3 (now 4) trophies and is better than everyone else. Until someone beats him he can do whatever he wants. (Besides head butting his opponent)


Don't you think it's rather arrogant to show off, just because you're a better tennis player?
And what makes you think a tennis player has all the rights to do anything he likes as long as he beats the rest?

AnonymousCoward
07-13-2006, 08:45 AM
The problem with bragging isn't that it isn't true. The problem is that it is insulting.

My concern is that if the ATP tells people it's good to be an obnoxious jerk then people will believe them. What many of the posters seem to be saying is yes, we buy into this crap. They make my point better than I could.

It is very sad for the sport.

tarheels2323
07-13-2006, 09:05 AM
In the US at least, and I'll assume for the sake of this post that the same is true for the rest of the world (please don't call me an arrogant American - it is in no way my intention), society surrounds itself with an air of retrospection. Clothes, music, automobiles - everything that is pop culture - are all going "retro." Everything, it seems has a throwback quality to it. I've been told that this advance and retreat of society has been going on for quite some time. Therefore, I am of the opinion that Nike and Federer are simply following this trend to which the rest of society has adhered itself in the past few years (more Nike, of course, than Federer). Both parties (probably more Federer in this case) are also aware of the traditionalist history which ecompasses the Wimbledon fortnight and the almost sacred quality of the tournament. The jacket is merely a throwback to the days of wooden racquets and the conservative (to say the least) dress which was commonplace on a Wimbledon court over half a century ago, and the way I see it, there's nothing wrong with a little appreciation for history.

stoffer
07-13-2006, 09:06 AM
You guys are thinking too much into this. He is wearing a jacket. The jacket is style first, statement a distant second. Anyone else can wear a similar jacket if they wish with their own claim to fame on their own jacket.
Is your problem with the jacket that it had 3 racquets symbolizing 3 W victories?

It is sad for the sport? I cant see how. If anything it helped as people I know who dont usually watch tennis heard about it and wanted to see it.

Shabazza
07-13-2006, 09:52 AM
The problem with bragging isn't that it isn't true. The problem is that it is insulting.

My concern is that if the ATP tells people it's good to be an obnoxious jerk then people will believe them. What many of the posters seem to be saying is yes, we buy into this crap. They make my point better than I could.

It is very sad for the sport.
Comparing a jacket to a headbut is ludicrous!
Do you have such an inferior-complex, that someone showing what he achieved in an unobtrusive way (and a little logo on a jacket IS unobtrusive!) offend you this much?!

AnonymousCoward
07-13-2006, 10:35 AM
So boasting of your titles on your sleeve, or on your breast in this case, is sportsmanlike as long as the jacket is fancy?

And what matters most about a sport is its popularity?

If you're good enough then you should be pompous, arrogant, and disrespectful to other players?

The message is clear. There does seem to be a strong consensus. I won't argue with that.

stoffer
07-13-2006, 10:38 AM
Yes the message is clear. You are a troll that should return to his closet. End of thread.

alienhamster
07-13-2006, 10:40 AM
Of course the jacket is pretentious. Any Fed fan who says otherwise isn't being honest. But it is well, well deserved.

And it is ridiculous to compare a Zidane head-butt to Fed wearing a jacket. Do you think the jacket is an aggressive move on the part of Federer toward his opponents? Is he defensive because they've been trash-talking him, so he decided, "I'll show you, ya jerk!" by putting on a nice jacket before his matches?

WHA?

I'm pretty sure the jacket is directed towards THE CHAMPIONSHIPS as an institution more than at his opponents.

Dedans Penthouse
07-13-2006, 10:50 AM
Is he defensive because they've been trash-talking him, so he decided, "I'll show you, ya jerk!" by putting on a nice jacket before his matches?
Good post. Imagine his opponents cringing and shaking as Federer with a sadistic smirk on his face slowly reaches into his locker (and while keeping his stare fixed on his next victim), pulls out the jacket from his locker.......

And his "victim" starts wailing: "Oh no!! Not the jacket!!! Please!!! Anything...anything but THE JACKET!!!!"

alienhamster
07-13-2006, 10:55 AM
Good post. Imagine his opponents cringing and shaking as Federer with a sadistic smirk on his face slowly reaches into his locker (and while keeping his stare fixed on his next victim), pulls out the jacket from his locker.......

And his "victim" starts wailing: "Oh no!! Not the jacket!!! Please!!! Anything...anything but THE JACKET!!!!" LOL! Perfect!

Federer (with jacket a-gleamin'): "This will have them all trembling in their nubbed, grass court shoes. WAA HAA HAA HAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAA!!!!!"

8PAQ
07-13-2006, 11:00 AM
Good post. Imagine his opponents cringing and shaking as Federer with a sadistic smirk on his face slowly reaches into his locker (and while keeping his stare fixed on his next victim), pulls out the jacket from his locker.......

And his "victim" starts wailing: "Oh no!! Not the jacket!!! Please!!! Anything...anything but THE JACKET!!!!"

Fed has lost only one set with the jacket and that was in a tiebreak! He got to the final losing a record low number of games wearing the jacket. He bagled Nadal right after taking off the jacket and then almost fed him a bread stick right before putting the jacket back on. The jacket obviously has special powers. You know it is true!

AnonymousCoward
07-13-2006, 11:22 AM
You can forgive Zidane for getting overly excited during a tournament that comes around only once every four years. And depending on what Matarazzi said to him you can understand his anger.

You can also forgive Federer for being full of himself and acting badly. He's played some great tennis.

But if you've read what I've said carefully, this isn't about Federer or Zidane. The point is that when top tennis players act poorly we don't just forgive them. We start saying that the poor behavior is actually good.

This is what I'm hearing from the everyone from the announcers to people responding on this list - that these things should no longer be considered unsportsmanlike. Rudeness is the new enthusiasm. Pump your fist at your opponent. Yell 'Come on!' when your opponent misses a shot. I actually heard an announcer criticize a player for not pumping his fist!

Some people on this list disagree with me on this. That's ok. But what is worth noting is how many people choose to insult me rather than just disagree. I do appreciate Dedans' sense of humor though.

It also seems to me that I'm seeing an increasing amount of unsportsmanlike behavior on the club tennis courts. It's not unrelated.

alienhamster
07-13-2006, 11:30 AM
You can forgive Zidane for getting overly excited during a tournament that comes around only once every four years. And depending on what Matarazzi said to him you can understand his anger.

You can also forgive Federer for being full of himself and acting badly. He's played some great tennis.

But if you've read what I've said carefully, this isn't about Federer or Zidane. The point is that when top tennis players act poorly we don't just forgive them. We start saying that the poor behavior is actually good.

This is what I'm hearing from the everyone from the announcers to people responding on this list - that these things should no longer be considered unsportsmanlike. Rudeness is the new enthusiasm. Pump your fist at your opponent. Yell 'Come on!' when your opponent misses a shot. I actually heard an announcer criticize a player for not pumping his fist!

Some people on this list disagree with me on this. That's ok. But what is worth noting is how many people choose to insult me rather than just disagree.

It also seems to me that I'm seeing an increasing amount of unsportsmanlike behavior on the club tennis courts. I can't help but make the connection. I'm not going to dismiss you as a troll here because you actually seem like you want to make some important points. (And, really people, isn't troll dismissal often just another form of trolling?)

If YOU read our reactions to your posts carefully, you would have hopefully inferred that the comparison you have made doesn't support the larger points you're arguing for and, if anything, confuses the issues you're raising.

(1) You haven't demonstrated that Federer has acted poorly. You keep assuming this as a premise without giving reasons for it.

(2) You jump from "not forgiving bad behavior" to a critique of all of us as tennis fans for actually saying this behavior is desirable. Once again, this is probably another point you need to give evidence for, argue, whatever. But you also seem to treat this as a given, whereas (if you'd read these boards thoroughly) you'd note that the hard core fans here really, really call players on bad sportsmanship all the time. As far as the non-hard core fans . . . well, it's debatable how much they love/hate what you're referring to as bad behavior. And maybe the discussion could take this direction for now?

So, basic point: you need to back up/explain your assumptions before we can move forward here.

tangerine
07-13-2006, 11:53 AM
I didn't like Roger's jacket either. It made him look pompous and silly. I hope this was a one time thing and that he doesn't wear it ever again.

DMich
07-13-2006, 12:57 PM
In the US at least, and I'll assume for the sake of this post that the same is true for the rest of the world (please don't call me an arrogant American - it is in no way my intention), society surrounds itself with an air of retrospection. Clothes, music, automobiles - everything that is pop culture - are all going "retro." Everything, it seems has a throwback quality to it. I've been told that this advance and retreat of society has been going on for quite some time. Therefore, I am of the opinion that Nike and Federer are simply following this trend to which the rest of society has adhered itself in the past few years (more Nike, of course, than Federer). Both parties (probably more Federer in this case) are also aware of the traditionalist history which ecompasses the Wimbledon fortnight and the almost sacred quality of the tournament. The jacket is merely a throwback to the days of wooden racquets and the conservative (to say the least) dress which was commonplace on a Wimbledon court over half a century ago, and the way I see it, there's nothing wrong with a little appreciation for history.


As someone who works in PR, I totally agree. There was nothing malicious behind this outside of Nike and IMG trying to get a little press for themselves (nike) and their client (fed).

AnonymousCoward
07-13-2006, 02:03 PM
In the US at least, and I'll assume for the sake of this post that the same is true for the rest of the world (please don't call me an arrogant American - it is in no way my intention), society surrounds itself with an air of retrospection. Clothes, music, automobiles - everything that is pop culture - are all going "retro." Everything, it seems has a throwback quality to it. I've been told that this advance and retreat of society has been going on for quite some time. Therefore, I am of the opinion that Nike and Federer are simply following this trend to which the rest of society has adhered itself in the past few years (more Nike, of course, than Federer). Both parties (probably more Federer in this case) are also aware of the traditionalist history which ecompasses the Wimbledon fortnight and the almost sacred quality of the tournament. The jacket is merely a throwback to the days of wooden racquets and the conservative (to say the least) dress which was commonplace on a Wimbledon court over half a century ago, and the way I see it, there's nothing wrong with a little appreciation for history.


The jacket is just a throwback? Did players used to emblazen the number of titles they held on their outfits? It's conceited. No? Isn't the jacket just meant to confuse arrogance with elegance?

soul of a new machine
07-13-2006, 02:31 PM
So Federer is well known as a courteous, well liked personality in the locker room who patiently spends countless hours giving press conferences in various languages, signs autographs for his fans without charging them unlike many athletes. The man is also known for his generous contributions of money and time to charities and you look past all this and you're worried about a small crest that he wears on a jacket that was probably suggested by his sponsor? I find it a lot more distasteful that repeat doping offenders like Puerta are allowed to come back to the game or that players fake injuries to regroup when losing, now those are real problems of sportsmanship in tennis. I'm not sure what point in time you'd like to return to anyway? Players like Bobby Riggs, Nastase, Connors, Lendl, McEnroe have always been present in the game and those guys were true *****s. So basically you could have picked much bigger offenses to be outraged about and the time you'd like to return to never existed.

Shabazza
07-13-2006, 02:48 PM
The jacket is just a throwback? Did players used to emblazen the number of titles they held on their outfits? It's conceited. No? Isn't the jacket just meant to confuse arrogance with elegance?
Ok, if you get so worked up about a little logo on a jacket that a tennis player wears, you must be screaming at players of other sports like football, soccer, boxing, basketball, ice-hockey, baseball etc., who can be arrogant and boastful, indeed.
In fact, tennis is a competitive sport of individuals who did sacrifice a lot to get to the point of winning Slams etc. and can be proud of what they achieved! A crest on a jacket which shows some of the milestones of a career doesn't make the one who wears it an "arrogant and obnoxius jerk"! Regardless who does it, period!

AnonymousCoward
07-13-2006, 03:15 PM
So Federer is well known as a courteous, well liked personality in the locker room who patiently spends countless hours giving press conferences in various languages, signs autographs for his fans without charging them unlike many athletes. The man is also known for his generous contributions of money and time to charities and you look past all this and you're worried about a small crest that he wears on a jacket that was probably suggested by his sponsor? I find it a lot more distasteful that repeat doping offenders like Puerta are allowed to come back to the game or that players fake injuries to regroup when losing, now those are real problems of sportsmanship in tennis. I'm not sure what point in time you'd like to return to anyway? Players like Bobby Riggs, Nastase, Connors, Lendl, McEnroe have always been present in the game and those guys were true *****s. So basically you could have picked much bigger offenses to be outraged about and the time you'd like to return to never existed.

Sorry. I didn't mean to disrespect everyone's heroes. I apologize to Federer and to Zidane. I'm sure they're real nice guys. I'm sure I've probably made my point badly. Were I more clever I perhaps I could have made it without mentioning anyone's name. Perhaps I deserve some criticism for that. The only reason I brought up their names is to show that the problem goes to the very top of the game; Right up to the biggest role models young tennis players have.

But those days you talk about are different. Back then tennis didn't spoil top players so much. Those players you talk about took plenty of heat. In todays game it's considered ok to brag or to whine about one's losses and give excuses. Back then it wasn't. That's what I'm trying to say.

AnonymousCoward
07-13-2006, 03:27 PM
[QUOTE=Shabazza]Ok, if you get so worked up about a little logo on a jacket that a tennis player wears, you must be screaming at players of other sports like football, soccer, boxing, basketball, ice-hockey, baseball etc., who can be arrogant and boastful, indeed.

Actually, no. I find today's football superstars, like Tom Brady, or Ben Roethlisberger to be excellent role models. And I won't mention names this time. I've learned my lesson. But in the NFL, if you're pompous and arrogant, or if you whine about losing, you will take some well deserved heat for it. Sometimes a team will even let an extremely talented player go if he's too arrogant.

Shabazza
07-13-2006, 03:38 PM
But those days you talk about are different. Back then tennis didn't spoil top players so much. Those players you talk about took plenty of heat. In todays game it's considered ok to brag or to whine about one's losses and give excuses. Back then it wasn't. That's what I'm trying to say.
First of all, tennis has become a professional sport - it's the life of the players and their job, which wasn't the case in the old days, when tennis was pretty much a hobby for some more or less well-off guys! There's more at stake for the players now, if they don't do well they don't have a back-up, which means they are more emotionally involved in what they are doing - which shows in their behavior if they lose or win - it's what they do for a living. Many people brag about their job if they got prized or got a raise and try to find excuses if they don't do well or get fired!
Second:
Nowadays much more money and fame is involved in sports in general and it's a matter of fact that, if there's much mony and fame to gain - people don't always show their best sides! ;)
Let's face it, the times have changed and what would've been inadequate behavior in the past is now more or less excepted and common! You don't have to like it, but that's just the way it is!

stoffer
07-13-2006, 03:52 PM
Ok AnonymousCoward it looks like I was too quick to label you as a troll, so I apologize. However, I do agree with you on one thing though, that you probably made your point badly. :)

AnonymousCoward
07-13-2006, 03:59 PM
First of all, tennis has become a professional sport - it's the life of the players and their job, which wasn't the case in the old days, when tennis was pretty much a hobby for some more or less well-off guys! There's more at stake for the players now, if they don't do well they don't have a back-up, which means they are more emotionally involved in what they are doing - which shows in their behavior if they lose or win - it's what they do for a living. Many people brag about their job if they got prized or got a raise and try to find excuses if they don't do well or get fired!
Second:
Nowadays much more money and fame is involved in sports in general and it's a matter of fact that, if there's much mony and fame to gain - people don't always show their best sides! ;)
Let's face it, the times have changed and what would've been inadequate behavior in the past is now more or less excepted and common! You don't have to like it, but that's just the way it is!

So are you saying that bragging and whining are ok in tennis because it's a professional sport and the players have lots of money now? And why is tennis different from other sports where players are still taken to task for bragging and whining?

AnonymousCoward
07-13-2006, 04:00 PM
Ok AnonymousCoward it looks like I was too quick to label you as a troll, so I apologize. However, I do agree with you on one thing though, that you probably made your point badly. :)


Yep. I did make it badly.

Simon Cowell
07-13-2006, 04:12 PM
The tour definitely needs more humble guys. Take a look at Rafael Nadal who knows he's the best in the world but doesn't go around flaunting in. Also you could look to a James Blake who always talks well and gives his opponents due credit.

Marat Safinator
07-13-2006, 04:15 PM
come on simon, nadal humble? jumping round court like an escaped psycho.

Shabazza
07-13-2006, 04:22 PM
So are you saying that bragging and whining are ok in tennis because it's a professional sport and the players have lots of money now? And why is tennis different from other sports where players are still taken to task for bragging and whining?
No I'm not, but then again, I haven't seen tennis player brag or whine in press conferences either and certainly not Federer! Wearing a crest on a jacket is NOT bragging! If Federer or anyone starts to say something like: "I'm the greatest!" etc. I would be concerned, but this "jacket"-incident is nothing to worry about, imo!
The only whining I heard at this years Wimbledon was about the change of the grass over the years leading to slower courts from some s&v-players and they have point.

Shabazza
07-13-2006, 04:25 PM
The tour definitely needs more humble guys. Take a look at Rafael Nadal who knows he's the best in the world but doesn't go around flaunting in. Also you could look to a James Blake who always talks well and gives his opponents due credit.
And James Blake is one of many players, who say how humble, friendly and likable Federer is in the locker room and off the courts!
AC - plz don't become a troll like him ;)

soundofatrain
07-13-2006, 08:19 PM
The tour definitely needs more humble guys. Take a look at Rafael Nadal who knows he's the best in the world but doesn't go around flaunting in. Also you could look to a James Blake who always talks well and gives his opponents due credit.

Didn't know that Rafael Nadal was #1 in the rankings?

FEDEXP
07-13-2006, 08:30 PM
"AnonymousCoward"

This might just be the most appropriate moniker on all boards. I will go this far to dignify your troll post: Zidane has gone into retirement and the last image of him (and he does not even return for the subsequent ceremony) is a viscious head butt which removes him and may have cost his country a victory in an event that comes around once every four years.

What has Federer done that equals this sort of errant behavior?

hingiskournikovasharapova
07-13-2006, 08:50 PM
Speaking of rubbing it in your face... what about Serena and her $50,000 earrings she wore on court? Or Jelena Dokic's double-D's that she flaunts at her much less chesty opponents. Would you like Jelena rubbing it in your face?

Buzzlightyear
07-13-2006, 08:54 PM
"AnonymousCoward"

Since you are comparing Federer with the World Cup "sportsmanship" thing, and try to point out that Fed is insulting other players by wearing a jacket with 3 trophies on his badge. I would like to point out that all World Cup teams has put stars on their badges to "brag about" how many World Cups they had won in the past. I don't hear any team cry and complaint that they were being insulted. So please use your head and carefully choose your example when you try to make a statement like "the ATP should learn from the FIFA..... blah blah blah" or you will be dismissed as a troll.


Simon Cowell,

Welcome back. So you now learn that a tennis set complete when one player reaches 6 games but not 5? Hope that knowledge will enhance your pleasure when you watch Nadal play.

Phil
07-13-2006, 10:30 PM
The jacket is just a throwback? Did players used to emblazen the number of titles they held on their outfits? It's conceited. No? Isn't the jacket just meant to confuse arrogance with elegance?

Here's what I think: Some goofy Nike designer one day said,

Nike Designer: "Hey, why don't we make Raj (in Nike HQ, they call Roger "Raj") a cool throwback blazer, complete with some kind 'o coat of arms that expresses his Wimbledon achievements."

Other designers: "Cool".

Later that day, Phil Knight: "Oh. SO. COOL! Just do it!"

The next day, Rog on the phone with Nike: "Ya ya, cool. Just fax me the crest design and I'll sign-off on it" (as he rolls his eyes and thinks, "They're paying me $9 mil per, so what the hell-it's only two weeks and then into the Goodwill bin...").

Coward - I honestly that is a realistic scenario as to how this jacket thing came about. You're overthinking it, or...letting your dislike/jealousy/envy of Federer's achievements get in the way of rational thought. Federer does not practice false humility-he's not above saying he's good (when they ask him about it), but I don't get ANY vibes that he's trying to rub it in and humiliate the rest of the field and, frankly, neither does the FIELD. I think you're pretty much alone in this conspiracy theory.

You may not have much of a life, but I'm sure you can get past this jacket obsession. Get over it, eat some lunch, move on...

Shabazza
07-14-2006, 02:35 AM
"AnonymousCoward"

This might just be the most appropriate moniker on all boards. I will go this far to dignify your troll post: Zidane has gone into retirement and the last image of him (and he does not even return for the subsequent ceremony) is a viscious head butt which removes him and may have cost his country a victory in an event that comes around once every four years.

What has Federer done that equals this sort of errant behavior?
A red card doesn't allow you to return to the field, even for the ceremony!
And the things the italian guy(forgot his name) said were more than insulting. It was a stupid and plain wrong reaction, esp. from someone as experienced as Zidane. He should've been wise enough to let it go in his last match in a WC-final. But in any other situation and location I could understand him and his reaction.

David L
07-14-2006, 03:36 AM
So are you saying that bragging and whining are ok in tennis because it's a professional sport and the players have lots of money now? And why is tennis different from other sports where players are still taken to task for bragging and whining?

Sports men and women who brag and whine, get their fair share of criticism. Murray, Djokovic, Roddick, Phil Mickelson, Hingis etc, the list goes on. Federer was a bad choice. He does not whine, and when he does mention some of his achievments, it's half in amazment at how things have worked out for him. He is also very good humoured with it and does not appear to take himself too seriously. I'm assuming you are American. I wonder if you would have the same opinion of him if he was born and bred American, but acted the same way. Also, according to Federer, the logo on the white blazer was as much a surprise to him as anyone. He said when Nike came up with the idea for a jacket, he said ok and was expecting them to put the swoosh logo on it, but was pleasantly surprised to see what they came up with. Federer has also said that the jacket will be donated to the Wimbledon museum. In any case, I don't think there is anything wrong with the jacket. Federer is one of the few players with sufficient charm to pull it off.

peter
07-14-2006, 04:00 AM
So boasting of your titles on your sleeve, or on your breast in this case, is sportsmanlike as long as the jacket is fancy?

And what matters most about a sport is its popularity?

If you're good enough then you should be pompous, arrogant, and disrespectful to other players?

The message is clear. There does seem to be a strong consensus. I won't argue with that.

In my mind it's pretty clear - I definitely will take a Federer with a classic, stylish, jacket that behaves apropriately on and off court over a (to take a not so randomly chosen) Alexander Waske and having watch that jerk being mean to ball boys and girls (and calling (shouting) them not so nice names off the court - I wonder what the ball girls (12? 13?) like to be called "c*nts"), throwing rackets and generally being an *sshole.

I sincerely doubt any of the other, serious, players have any problems with Federers jacket.

FiveO
07-14-2006, 05:58 AM
I think Phil's assessment is spot on. Comparing a player's paid sponsored wardrobe to one soccer player assaulting another, to his own and his team's detriment, not to mention the opponent he victimized, even if it was 'justified' by a preceding comment about one's mother, strikes me as odd.

On the other hand, tennis as a whole has been becoming more and more 'unsportsmanlike' on, off and surrounding the court. Some younger players and fans of tennis are probably not aware that the mores surrounding tennis culture once extended to the crowds who paid to see the best practitioners ply their craft. Believe it or not, the paid crowd was expected to behave in a certain manner at matches. Applauding a point won by the player you had a rooting interest in which came on the opponent's error, forced or not, making any noise during a point or calling out one player's name between points, was frowned upon and behaviors which prompted immediate correction by fellow witnesses in the crowd.

That's gone away, starting with the influence of Connors, continued with McEnroe who incites and encourages it, furthered by bringing more of the well lubricated "masses" to the game at night matches where a larger percentage attend now not because they are tennis fans necessarily but because it's a status lifting "hot ticket" or a chance to be seen and societal behaviors having become less civil in general over time.

I'm no sheltered prude or elitist. I played baseball through h.s. and football through college while also competing in tennis at the sectional to national level. Each sport had it's own accepted code of conduct. There were 'colorful' behaviors accepted in the more main stream sports, which did not exclude spitting, eye gouging, comments regarding the maternal side of the opponent's family or suggestions about the kind of activity one may have witnessed or engaged in with the opponent's sister and/or girlfriend the prior night.

However that kind of behavior was accepted in the intimacy of the line of scrimmage or batter's box. Something which was never accepted was "showing up" the opponent. If you did you immediately heard about it or were benched by your own coaches. Tennis had always been the same way. Don't show up the opponent. Let your racquet do the talking and, prior to Connors, to exclude racquets making gestures toward the crowd, officials or the opponent.

Okay times change. Ultimately the peers of bad actors have judged and still do judge players with a penchant toward on court gamesmanship, pre and post match comments to the press and others. Feigning injury, time delays, a "C'mon" audible to the crowd after winning the pre-match coin flip for choice or a fist pump and audible celebration on an opponent's error, forced or not, are still factors in fellow players determing the 'popularity' or not, of a particular opponent.

Defenses offered by fans that their player "A's" behavior is not as bad 'player B's doesn't move that behavior from under the "Bad" column heading to the "Good" and that rationale seems more a reflection of us, as a society than anything else. I think we should take a cue from the reactions of players themselves. There are reasons players are popular or not among their peers.

But a blazer? Crass or unsportsmanlike? A "glamor don't" or "fashion faux pas" maybe, but insulting? Not in my view.

It's not like Fed showed up to the Wimbledon final donning a t-shirt silk screened with print large enough for the fans and the opponent to read, which said:

"Mallorca Sucks!"

or one with an arrow pointing across the net which read:

"I'm Playing Stupido!"

Keifers
07-14-2006, 07:40 AM
Many thanks, Dedans and FiveO. Your posts had me chuckling appreciatively (excellent skitplay, Dedans) and laughing out loud (the thought of Fed wearing either of those t-shirts... too funny, FiveO).

Clever and humorous...

I needed a good laugh this morning, too... Thanks!

Dedans Penthouse
07-14-2006, 01:54 PM
Anonymous Crowd: I'm glad you got the gist of my humor ("No!...NO!....Not the jacket!......ANYTHING but tHe jAcKeT!!"), but seriously, I didn't really see Federer donning that jacket as an "in-your-face" gesture; he doesn't really strike me as that sort of guy.

As far as tennis goes in the "jerk" department, I respectfully have to disagree with you there as well. I think the ESPN's of the world do give the "me!" jerks that you find in the major sports (esp. football and basketball) a disproportionate amount of airtime and they present them for the most part, in a flattering, "posititive" light. They usually try and "buddy up" with them (for an interview) rather then take 'em to task. Bragging? That's the least of it. What about the arseholes who taunt and showboat IN-THE-FACE of their "beaten on a play" opponent? Like it's not enough to beat your man; no, you've got to run his nose in the dirt?

Oh and damn anyone who should take offense to this crap. They'll hear it from the apologists for these arseholes who'll then trot out the well worn "anything goes" mentality by whining: "now they're just trying to legislate the FUN out of the game." Making a spectacle out of yourself (and in your opponent's face) is fun? Hmmm....I always thought it was low-rent; act like you've been there before (e.g. in the endzone).

And ESPN gives the Terrell Owens and the Dennis Rodmans et al MORE than their fair share of airtime...again, while playing suck-up/buddy-buddy with them. The gushing geeks of Sportscenter (dismissive smirk). Nah, tennis in my book pretty much pales in comparison with the other sports in terms of "jerkoff" behavior. IMO.

bee
07-14-2006, 03:06 PM
A.C.....May I call you A.C? You have some admirable qualities, and one of them is the ability to take "constructive criticism," if we might call it that. So, I will just say, Your taking this way too seriously. Yeah, it's just a jacket and I thought it look pretty nice. This professional sports stuff is largely entertainment. As I'm sure you know, this Federer guy is not concerned about what you're wearing and what you have to say, so don't be so concerned with him. Just shrug it off.

Believe me, you can still be happy and contented with Federer wearing that jacket. It's not worth your time and worry. Same is true for a lot of stuff.

Which reminds me..."I've been through a lot of really bad stuff in my life, most of which never really happened."

Have a great weekend!

arosen
07-14-2006, 04:57 PM
Or Jelena Dokic's double-D's that she flaunts at her much less chesty opponents. Would you like Jelena rubbing it in your face?

Yes, I would very much like that, and I am not afraid to admit it. But what does a pair of lovelies have to do with jackets and earrings? Faulty logic.

On the other hand, I would love to see Rafa come out in a Rocky Balboa style boxing jacket with 6 swiss crosses on a lapel ( one of each time he kicked Roger's butte). That would be construed as crass, but it would still be very funny.

Max G.
07-14-2006, 08:08 PM
BTW, A.C., do you read /.? The name reminds me of that place ;)

VamosRafa
07-14-2006, 08:39 PM
I read this thread with interest, and was surprised, given how many folks here LOVE doubles and support it, didn't catch this from the Bryan brothers' blog from Wimbledon. This gem is from Mike:

Now, to the jacket. First, he never takes it out of his locker except for when he's about to go out to play and he doesn't even put it on in the locker room. I suspect someone has it dry cleaned for him after each match because it's always hanging in a type of brown suit cover. Players may have a little joke with him about it but no-one gives him any crap. He owns Wimbledon so he can do what he wants.

http://www.atptennis.com/en/blog/bryans.asp

This is definitely a Nike thing, and something that probably only Federer could get away with. Notice that Nike now has come up with a Federer "Champ" shirt for the U.S. Open. I doubt, though, that they will be bold enough to have him wear a jacket before the NY crowd.

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpageMANIKE-NMNYC.html

arosen
07-15-2006, 11:06 AM
I can totally see him wearing the Champ shirt in NY. Why not? It's funky, gaudy - just like most of the stuff they sell at the kiosks around Ashe stadium. Would be a welcome change from the solid colors he always wears. The jacket stays at WImby, for sure.

peter
07-15-2006, 11:39 AM
On the other hand, I would love to see Rafa come out in a Rocky Balboa style boxing jacket with 6 swiss crosses on a lapel ( one of each time he kicked Roger's butte). That would be construed as crass, but it would still be very funny.

Now that would be *really* funny to see! :-)