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View Full Version : Floyd Landis: Tour de France champ!


max
07-25-2006, 05:14 AM
Here's to Floyd Landis, 2007 TdF champ. . . amazing story!

HyperHorse
07-25-2006, 05:47 AM
you seem to forget this is a TENNIS forum.

Nuke
07-25-2006, 06:26 AM
I'm sure the French (and other European countries) are mortified. Lance finallly quits and another American rises up to win the Tour. And we all know how popular Americans are these days.

Shabazza
07-25-2006, 06:28 AM
I'm sure the French (and other European countries) are mortified. Lance finallly quits and another American rises up to win the Tour. And we all know how popular Americans are these days.
Well, I was impressed with his comeback, after he lost like 10 mins the day before. I'm far from mortified. ;)

Craig Sheppard
07-25-2006, 06:50 AM
I'm anxious to see how he fares after his hip replacement.... that will really be a story if he can be top-level as the six million dollar man.

Nike Man
07-25-2006, 07:04 AM
Yeah im english but i was very impressed with Floyd's comeback and pleased for him! There were so many twists and turns in this year's tour i almost expected him to fall off in the Champs Elleyses. Unfortunately the French will probably brand him as a doper now......

armand
07-25-2006, 07:17 AM
I was hoping to see Vinokourov, O'Grady, Voeckler, Ulrich, Sastre, Leipheimer, Basso, Julich and those kinda dudes all fight it out for a tight finish. Thought they'd be right there with extra motivation since Armstrong was done. Oh well.

Nice sig, Nike Man.

Nike Man
07-25-2006, 07:23 AM
Adely, you seem to know a bit about cycling..... what do you think about all this blood tranfusion thing, do you think it's cheating? The results are the same as using an altidude tent after all. I feel especially sorry for Basso as he'sd innocent plus he had a real chance of winning the Giro and the Tour..... i suppose his time will come

BTW most of what Lance Armstrong says is cool!

armand
07-25-2006, 07:36 AM
Adely, you seem to know a bit about cycling..... what do you think about all this blood tranfusion thing, do you think it's cheating? The results are the same as using an altidude tent after all. I feel especially sorry for Basso as he'sd innocent plus he had a real chance of winning the Giro and the Tour..... i suppose his time will come

BTW most of what Lance Armstrong says is cool!No, I know very little about cycling, unfortunately. I only remember those names from Tours past...

But I'd be interested to learn mo'!

Nike Man
07-25-2006, 07:43 AM
LOL, you bluff knowledge well! I presume you have become interested in it recently then. Did you watch a lot of this year's Tour or did you just follow the results?

armand
07-25-2006, 08:03 AM
I didn't watch much this year, unfortunately. I thought I would get into it deeper into the race, but when I didn't recognize most of the names at the top of the standings, I couldn't get interested.

There was one really cool part that I did see and that was when Landis was struggling and his team car was driving right beside him and the team boss was trying to motivate him and was yelling all these things. He looked totally finished then. Wicked how he came back to win after that bad day.

Nike Man
07-25-2006, 08:11 AM
Yeah, he actually was suffering from heat exhaustion that day so it was amazing how he recovered to perform so well the day after. I don't watch all of the time trials because frankly they're quite boring (apart from the last one where Landis basically won the tour!). It's in the Alps where the race gets really interesting! Even without those brilliant solo attacks from Lance!

Dedans Penthouse
07-25-2006, 09:13 AM
Yeah im english but i was very impressed with Floyd's comeback and pleased for him! There were so many twists and turns in this year's tour i almost expected him to fall off in the Champs Elleyses. Unfortunately the French will probably brand him as a doper now......Funny, I was thinking the same thing. In winning the race, Floyd's no longer "under the radar" and so I wouldn't be surprised if some snipe-editor at the agenda-driven "innuendo-rag" L'Equippe dispatched a crew of "reporters" with instructions to dig up something (ANYTHING) on Landis.....even if the truth be damned! :-)

simi
07-25-2006, 03:26 PM
I was hoping to see Vinokourov, O'Grady, Voeckler, Ulrich, Sastre, Leipheimer, Basso, Julich and those kinda dudes all fight it out for a tight finish. Thought they'd be right there with extra motivation since Armstrong was done. Oh well.

Ivan Basso and Jan Ullrich were not allow to ride due to being implicated in the Operation Puerto drug scandal in Spain. Alex Vinokourov could not ride because most of his team was implicated and he couldn't just go ahead by himself without a team. Tough break for Alex. He should have signed with a better team last year.

Thomas Voeckler is still too young to be a serious contender for a three week grand tour. Besides, he doesn't have a very good team supporting him. Stewart O'Grady is a sprinter and not a GC contender. Bobby Julich crashed in the first time trial and broke his wrist and had to drop out. Levi Leipheimer is the biggest dissapointment this year, but it is thought that because of this being his last year with Gerolsteiner, he is not motivated. It is reported that he will ride with Discovery next year. Carlos Sastre is the only one on your list with a real chance, but he blew a second place podium finish by riding a lousy final time trial. He ended up fourth.

One of the better web sites for pro cycling info is:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/

malakas
07-25-2006, 03:43 PM
Funny, I was thinking the same thing. In winning the race, Floyd's no longer "under the radar" and so I wouldn't be surprised if some snipe-editor at the agenda-driven "innuendo-rag" L'Equippe dispatched a crew of "reporters" with instructions to dig up something (ANYTHING) on Landis.....even if the truth be damned! :-)

Actually,L'equippe is a very reputable newspaper,a very trustworthy source for news,and I would be suprised if smth like that happened..Maybe some other,but L'equippe?Non,mon ami!;)

schaefferm46
07-25-2006, 06:27 PM
landis threw together an amazing tour....the thing that shocks me is how oscar periro even got inside the top 10. He was 30 minutes down and joined a breakaway group that finshed 30 minutes infront of the pelton..30 minutes is an almost unheard of number. he raced a great tour and floyd did also...george hincapie on the other hand was a bit of a dissipointment but great race for americans

armand
07-25-2006, 07:25 PM
Ivan Basso and Jan Ullrich were not allow to ride due to being implicated in the Operation Puerto drug scandal in Spain. Alex Vinokourov could not ride because most of his team was implicated and he couldn't just go ahead by himself without a team. Tough break for Alex. He should have signed with a better team last year.

Thomas Voeckler is still too young to be a serious contender for a three week grand tour. Besides, he doesn't have a very good team supporting him. Stewart O'Grady is a sprinter and not a GC contender. Bobby Julich crashed in the first time trial and broke his wrist and had to drop out. Levi Leipheimer is the biggest dissapointment this year, but it is thought that because of this being his last year with Gerolsteiner, he is not motivated. It is reported that he will ride with Discovery next year. Carlos Sastre is the only one on your list with a real chance, but he blew a second place podium finish by riding a lousy final time trial. He ended up fourth.

One of the better web sites for pro cycling info is:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/Thanks for the great info Simi! I only remembered those names because they seemed to do well in previous Tour(s) and/or the announcers often mentioned their names, that's why I remembered them.

So Basso and Ulrich were only implicated? They didn't test positive? That's somewhat reassuring...

I also enjoy learning about the little unwritten 'rules' the Tour has. Like when that French kid tripped up Lance, his competitors waited up for him until he got back in the saddle and caught up to speed.
And there was this incident last year I think when a top rider tried to hide in a breakaway group, Lance caught up and told him to drop back or else the breakaway pack wasn't gonna breakaway from nothin'.

Craig Sheppard
07-25-2006, 07:42 PM
So Basso and Ulrich were only implicated? They didn't test positive? That's somewhat reassuring...


Yeah, you are correct--they were implicated in the scandal with no proof and no positive test. They were basically forced to give up their Tour and pretty much their year for unproven theories. It aggravates me they take such dramatic actions w/o proving anything. If they're proven to be innocent, they've been ruined for nothing. It's like Ready, Fire, Aim... Granted it wouldn't be the best scenario if Jan or Ivan were to win it under suspicion, but at least the UCI could strip him of the title and give it to the next guy if it was proven. That would be more disgraceful to the rider, IMO. But going the route they did was positively unfair, IMO.

Nike Man
07-26-2006, 12:32 AM
Well I would be highly suprised if Ullrich was innocent. The Spanish doctor who has been doing the blood transfusions had numerous text messages from Ullrich's agent and one of them before a big race said,"Jan urgently needs to see you, the race is tommorow," Ullrich went on to win that race! Basso however was implicated simply because the word "Brillo" was in the guys phonebook! They thought it might have been a nickname..... now that is extremely harsh!

OrangeOne
07-26-2006, 12:45 AM
It's like Ready, Fire, Aim... Granted it wouldn't be the best scenario if Jan or Ivan were to win it under suspicion, but at least the UCI could strip him of the title and give it to the next guy if it was proven. That would be more disgraceful to the rider, IMO. But going the route they did was positively unfair, IMO.

Hmmm - so many things here. I'm heavily involved in mountain biking and cycling in a few different capacities, although I have nothing to do with professional road racing other than being an observer, and a keen watcher of the tour....

I think cycling - and especially 'le tour', knows that it only has so many more chances to keep what's left of it's reputation. Swimming had to get tough, and now it's cycling's turn. While it's ok to say that they could do as you suggest and re-award a winner, the potential damage to the sport from such an incident would be huge. It could result in tens or hundreds of millions of lost sponsorship, as no company wants to be associated with a drugged sport. Ratings losses could be catastrophic, and most importantly for the future of the sport, parents would be that little less likely to encourage their kids to try cycling.

I think they (the tour organisers) took a scary and hard stand this year, but that said, sometimes scary hard and stands have to be taken. Maybe it cost Ullrich a tour or a podium, maybe Ullrich has been seeking chemical assistance, we'll probably never really know on either front. What we do know, is that every professional cyclist will now be even more scared about risking taking drugs or even being associated in any way with anyone who ever has, cyclist, medico or otherwise....and that's unquestionably good for the sport.

Craig Sheppard
07-26-2006, 07:42 AM
I see your point OrangeOne, but I'm coming at it from a realstic point of view. I ride regularly on the road an follow the sport throughout the year. My opinion is that everyone is doping, and the ones that get caught are busted and that's the risk they take. I don't have any problem with them kicking out those testing positive, but IMO they actually do have to test positive to get kicked out. Not just a few reports found in a doctor's office.

simi
07-26-2006, 07:53 AM
...It could result in tens or hundreds of millions of lost sponsorship, as no company wants to be associated with a drugged sport...

Already having a fallout. Liberty Insurance has dropped sponsorship of pro cycling. They backed the "wrong" team. Phonak is pulling out at the end of this year. They say that they have achieved name recognition goals, but one has to believe they don't want their name to be dragged in the mud with everyone else.

p.s. A good cycling forum is

http://bicyclegroup.com/forum/index.php

Good folk there. No trolls. A nice friendly, closeknit "family", but open to oursiders. Got started when OLN dropped coverage of the Giro and Vuelta.

Shabazza
07-27-2006, 06:55 AM
Well, Floyd Landis was positve tested with his A-sample - if his B-sample is positive as well Pereiro wins the Tour de France - and Basso and Ulrich were banned without being positive tested.
What a great publicity for cycling...why am I not surprised! :rolleyes:

ChipNCharge
07-27-2006, 06:57 AM
You'd have to be female or French to not test positive for a male hormone.

Shabazza
07-27-2006, 07:05 AM
You'd have to be female or French to not test positive for a male hormone.
No you don't - his testosterone was way above the normal level of a male!
It's strange that the sample is from the "miracle" etappe 17. which he won, isn't it? Especially after he was nearly "dead" the day before.

armand
07-27-2006, 07:10 AM
This is shocking news. What a shame, it's like the whole event was for nothing.

Anyway, I heard that he lost 10 minutes and and had a horrible day that day was because he had a beer the previous evening. I can well imagine that, but why did he have a beer? That's almost as dumb as doping.

malakas
07-27-2006, 07:11 AM
Wow..:shock:
That's really shocking..:neutral:
Big shame...:(

Craig Sheppard
07-27-2006, 07:18 AM
This is shocking news. What a shame, it's like the whole event was for nothing.

Anyway, I heard that he lost 10 minutes and and had a horrible day that day was because he had a beer the previous evening. I can well imagine that, but why did he have a beer? That's almost as dumb as doping.

I don't really think it's shocking, I think it's unfortunate. I'm telling you, almost all top level cyclists are doped in some way or another. It's just a fact of life. Even believing that, I still enjoy the sport immensely.

ACE of Hearts
07-27-2006, 07:53 AM
Landis just became a cheat and a joke!!!I know the french sometimes pull out crazy stories but i believe this one.:mad:

theace21
07-27-2006, 08:08 AM
No you don't - his testosterone was way above the normal level of a male!
It's strange that the sample is from the "miracle" etappe 17. which he won, isn't it? Especially after he was nearly "dead" the day before.
Strange - only that he got caught...

Shabazza
07-27-2006, 11:57 AM
Strange - only that he got caught...
Well, he made a beginner's mistake, cause testosterone is so easy to detect, but he had no choice - testosteron is also a hormone, which boosts you recovery and raises your tolerance level to pain and fatigue + it makes you more agrassive (That's why men in general are more agrassive and recover quicker than women).
It was the only thing that could help him in such a short time - no blood doping or EPO would have the same effect in a day.
At the, end Cycling has lost all credibility and won't recover from this for a long time, imo!

Hartzy
07-27-2006, 12:28 PM
Floyd Landis= Worst Mennonite EVER:p

tennisprofl
07-27-2006, 01:11 PM
yay floyd..yayayayayay

OrangeOne
07-27-2006, 01:48 PM
This is shocking news. What a shame, it's like the whole event was for nothing.

Anyway, I heard that he lost 10 minutes and and had a horrible day that day was because he had a beer the previous evening. I can well imagine that, but why did he have a beer? That's almost as dumb as doping.

He may or may not have had a beer, but in reality on that stage he was trapped in a bunch with no team-mates for ages and was too scared to go to the team car and get food / drink - so he didn't eat or drink much. He 'hit the wall', glucose / dehydration-wise. A beer the night before wouldn't have helped matters, but that was the main reason...

As for your first sentence, I agree, entirely. This didn't happen on the final (racing) stage, so it's just all unfair now!. So many interactions, so many battles, etc. It's kind of like finding out the shock 17-year old winner of a GS was doped heavily, but only in the 3rd round, and when he knocked out Federer, and the 4th round, when he beat Hewitt, and finding this out after the tournament.

What do you do? You give the win to Nalby, who won the final....but you'll never know what would have happened if Fed or Hewitt weren't beat way back when...

Steve Dykstra
07-27-2006, 02:07 PM
Well, according to ESPN, his testosterone levels did NOT come back high, some ratio came back high. His testosterone levels were actually low they say, but some other level was really low, which made the ratio high. I think the one that they said was really low was epotestosterone or something. They were saying taking cortisone shots often might do that.

Craig Sheppard
07-27-2006, 03:10 PM
Well, according to ESPN, his testosterone levels did NOT come back high, some ratio came back high. His testosterone levels were actually low they say, but some other level was really low, which made the ratio high. I think the one that they said was really low was epotestosterone or something. They were saying taking cortisone shots often might do that.

Hey Steve, what are you doing up at Cornell? Ugrad? Grad?

armand
07-27-2006, 03:19 PM
Hey Steve, what are you doing up at Cornell? Ugrad? Grad?He's just minding his own business, ok? I suggest you do the same.




















Just kidding, just kidding!:mrgreen:

ATXtennisaddict
07-28-2006, 08:05 AM
Disgrace and an idiot. Tested positive for banned substance.

But I just read someone said his T-levels were ok, just a ratio that was high.

So I can't condemn yet :P

Dedans Penthouse
07-28-2006, 08:09 AM
Disgrace and an idiot. Tested positive for banned substance.

But I just read someone said his T-levels were ok, just a ratio that was high.

So I can't condemn yet :P
True, the testing protocol has yet to be completed, but, like they say:
if it walks like a duck.....

armand
07-28-2006, 08:13 AM
We're watching him on CNN, he's giving a press conference in Madrid. Arguments are convincing but we'll see.
He's supposed to be on Larry King Live later tonight? Oh, guess it will be just a satellite interview.

Innocent until proven guilty, no?

vive le beau jeu !
07-28-2006, 09:24 AM
if true, that's disappointing... he looked like a nice guy :(

i can't believe that he was caught and that armstrong wasn't...
this is unfair.

Dan007
07-28-2006, 09:38 AM
When will the sports become a 100% clean!!! It's a shame. He wins the most prestigus tourement in his sport, and after a week everyone has found out that you cheated and did not win it by your own. It's pitiful.

Craig Sheppard
07-28-2006, 10:06 AM
Cycling is a dirty sport... it's just going to be that way. You guys who think otherwise are just disillusioned. They're going to ruin the entire sport for good by trying to clean it up so publicly. European governing bodies, security people, whoever, can't keep their mouths shut. If they want to try and eliminate drugs, they need to do it a lot more quietly then they're doing it now.

Nike Man
07-28-2006, 10:10 AM
ahhhh you must be French, therefore you are an Armstrong hater! Is there any point telling you he didn't take drugs?

Craig Sheppard
07-28-2006, 10:25 AM
I think Lance is absolutely awesome. Do i think he is totally clean? HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAAHAHAHAAH. You guys need to face reality.

Nike Man
07-28-2006, 11:01 AM
I think Lance is absolutely awesome. Do i think he is totally clean? HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAAHAHAHAAH. You guys need to face reality.
But why do you think this? There hasn't been any evidence against him! Just because he produced outstanding performances doesn't make him a doper in my opinion. You are entitled too your own opinion, of course, but where is your evidence? I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt...... Flyod Landis is a different story though:(

Craig Sheppard
07-28-2006, 12:35 PM
But why do you think this? There hasn't been any evidence against him! Just because he produced outstanding performances doesn't make him a doper in my opinion. You are entitled too your own opinion, of course, but where is your evidence? I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt...... Flyod Landis is a different story though:(

I think all top-level cyclists take some sort of performance enhancers in some form or another. It's just a necessity to be a top-level cyclist. Why do I think this? From stories I've heard from amateur competitive cyclists, from what I've heard of other former professional cyclists, and my own opinion. Frankie Andreu was forced to testify about Lance, fortunately it didn't expose Lance too much...

I don't think most amateur athletes really understand what it takes to be a professional athlete, especially in cycling. People think they do, they think they'd know what it takes, but how many have really been behind the scenes... I haven't been there to see it myself, so I can only listen to people who have been there. There's a whole world we don't see, decisions that amateur athletes don't have to deal with.

Do I think any less of the sport? No, it is what it is. I'm in awe of all these guys who compete and really push themselves. They still put in the work, they still put in the time. Doping isn't a substitute for that. Whether none are doping or all or doping, it doesn't stop it from being amazing. I'll never be like them, so it doesn't affect me in the least. People who use the excuse "but it sets a bad example", well, you need to learn right from wrong for yourself and need to separate your life from a professional's life. The reality is that if you're going into professional cycling, you're going to come across drugs. For the rest of us who aren't, it makes no difference to me.

simi
07-28-2006, 12:51 PM
Are the use of high altitude acclimation tents a form of legalized doping? What if it is shown that the one beer and shot of whiskey Floyd had that previous night was the causation of the T:E ratio being too high? Where is the line to be drawn? What a mess!

nickybol
07-28-2006, 02:12 PM
Do you know how fast these guys cycle? In almost flat stages, they cycle with an average speed of about 50 km/h. Do you know how fast that is? If a cycle on my racing bicycle, I barely reach 50 when I sprint as fast as I can, let alone keep it up for over 200 kilometres.

wimble10
07-28-2006, 02:34 PM
That's too bad. The Tour de France was so exciting to watch. I didn't know drug enhancers were so prevalent in cycling. Makes me wonder about other sports like tennis..

nickybol
07-28-2006, 02:36 PM
You don`t know about tennis because cyclists are tested far more often and even have to donate blood for testing. Cycling is one of the most tested sports, and doping scandals are always brought to the public. Other sports like to keep it quiet.

Jassy_B
07-28-2006, 03:46 PM
he tested positive for crack cocaine

Steve Dykstra
07-28-2006, 06:37 PM
Hey Steve, what are you doing up at Cornell? Ugrad? Grad?

I am going into my senior year as an undergrad in civil engineering. Why do you ask?

Nice post by the way (#47).

armand
07-28-2006, 07:33 PM
I think all top-level cyclists take some sort of performance enhancers in some form or another. It's just a necessity to be a top-level cyclist. Why do I think this? From stories I've heard from amateur competitive cyclists, from what I've heard of other former professional cyclists, and my own opinion. Frankie Andreu was forced to testify about Lance, fortunately it didn't expose Lance too much...

I don't think most amateur athletes really understand what it takes to be a professional athlete, especially in cycling. People think they do, they think they'd know what it takes, but how many have really been behind the scenes... I haven't been there to see it myself, so I can only listen to people who have been there. There's a whole world we don't see, decisions that amateur athletes don't have to deal with.

Do I think any less of the sport? No, it is what it is. I'm in awe of all these guys who compete and really push themselves. They still put in the work, they still put in the time. Doping isn't a substitute for that. Whether none are doping or all or doping, it doesn't stop it from being amazing. I'll never be like them, so it doesn't affect me in the least. People who use the excuse "but it sets a bad example", well, you need to learn right from wrong for yourself and need to separate your life from a professional's life. The reality is that if you're going into professional cycling, you're going to come across drugs. For the rest of us who aren't, it makes no difference to me.I don't get what you're saying, could you dumb it down a notch? Are you saying that everyone on tour dopes and the testers just choose to ignore it? Or are some drugs not illegal? Or when you say "performance enhancers" you're talking about non narcotics(like creatine)?

Craig Sheppard
07-29-2006, 06:04 AM
I am going into my senior year as an undergrad in civil engineering. Why do you ask?

Nice post by the way (#47).

Class of '99, Computer Science... :) Actually was and A&S student not ENGR though... Just keepin tabs on the place! I haven't been back since '01, I've seen pics of how much things have changed w/ construction. Crazy. Good luck with your final year--hope they keep the recruiting strong for when you graduate. Can't wait for my 10-year.

Craig Sheppard
07-29-2006, 06:24 AM
I don't get what you're saying, could you dumb it down a notch? Are you saying that everyone on tour dopes and the testers just choose to ignore it? Or are some drugs not illegal? Or when you say "performance enhancers" you're talking about non narcotics(like creatine)?

Well, I guess I was intentinally vague about the drugs because I don't know exactly how dopers get away with it. All they need to do is know what tests they'll be required to pass, and then concoct some method for making those tests look normal. In Floyd's test (I'm not saying he did this) for testosterone, it's the ratio of testosterone to epitetosterone. So I've heard if you take some testosterone, you need to level it out with some epitestosterone. So you have hi levels but the ratio is the same.

Yes, I'm saying everyone on the tour, at least at the highest levels, are dopers. I don't specifically mean EPO, but in one way or another, they're trying to enhance their performance in other ways than training, in ways that are illegal according to doping rules. BTW, narcotics are a particular class of painkilling drugs, not performance enhancers.

nickybol
07-29-2006, 07:37 AM
If you are smart you make sure the dope you use is not tested or you make sure your dope isn`t on the list.

Condoleezza
07-30-2006, 09:20 AM
Funny, I was thinking the same thing. In winning the race, Floyd's no longer "under the radar" and so I wouldn't be surprised if some snipe-editor at the agenda-driven "innuendo-rag" L'Equippe dispatched a crew of "reporters" with instructions to dig up something (ANYTHING) on Landis.....even if the truth be damned! :-)


Well, the truth is Landis was doped, no? :p

Condoleezza
07-30-2006, 09:25 AM
We're watching him on CNN, he's giving a press conference in Madrid. Arguments are convincing .....


:D :D :D

Erm, which argument did he bring up for his high testosterone?

Condi

armand
07-30-2006, 09:57 AM
:D :D :D

Erm, which argument did he bring up for his high testosterone?

CondiYou had to be there (wo?)man. It was mostly how he said it but he did say he's always tested high for testosterone and also that the testing wasn't complete and it was the this first glance that made things look bad.
Anywho, innocent until proved guilty, ain't that the deal?

Craig Sheppard
07-30-2006, 10:35 AM
You had to be there (wo?)man. It was mostly how he said it but he did say he's always tested high for testosterone and also that the testing wasn't complete and it was the this first glance that made things look bad.
Anywho, innocent until proved guilty, ain't that the deal?

I agree totally adely. I know I'm completely contradictory, but that's just the way it has to be. While I think drugs are very prevalent in cycling, I think Floyd needs to be given a fair shake, and they shouldn't publicize or condemn him before all the facts are in.

I've also heard from someone on TV that the most likely scenario is the B sample will come back positive, but b/c of this particular test, Floyd will probably win an appeal in court, since this result is the one that is most often overturned... so we'll see I guess

Nike Man
07-30-2006, 11:13 AM
Well another top athlete, Justin Gatlin, has now, apparently taken drugs.http://www.skysports.com/skysports/article/0,,1-1229266,00.html
Why, why, why?.....:(

chess9
07-30-2006, 11:33 AM
I've got a thread going called "Pro Racquets and Gear" under the same heading. Check it out. There are a few sites mentioned there that you might find interesting.

In my view, the bottom line for Floyd Landis should be whether he tests positive for exogenous sources of testosterone. Let's hope that test is done and it is dispositive. Right now, the situation looks pretty bleak with him having a T/ET ratio of about 11.4 to one. The average man MIGHT be 2-1, but we are usually closer to 1-1. Also, endurance athletes typically have fairly low testosterone levels, particularly at the end of a hard ride. Cortisol levels are out of sight of course. I had my testosterone levels tested right after Ironman Lake Placid last year cause I didn't finish (turns out it was probably the flu). Anyway, my grandmother has higher testosterone levels than I had on that day. So, Floyd's in a heap of hurt looking at this from my end of the microscope of course. :)

-Robert

nickybol
07-30-2006, 11:37 AM
He said he always had high testosteron levels. Why didn`t that came out in earlier tests?

chess9
07-30-2006, 12:03 PM
He said he always had high testosteron levels. Why didn`t that came out in earlier tests?

We don't know the results of the earlier tests, that's one reason. The other possibilities are a) he's lieing, b) he misspoke, c) he may have had low ET not T, which raised his ratio. We also don't know why he was clean one day, dirty the next, and clean the next day. Normally, T/ET is very stable among individuals, absent mishandling of the specimen, alcohol use (as here, but the effect for males is small), or severe dehydration (definitely a possibility). The ratio test is also one of the poorer drug tests in the view of many commentators on this subject. Given the past problems with T/ET we are surprised the labs are still using it. That may be WADA's doing or UCI's unwillingness to pay more the more expensive testing for exogenous sources of T.

Anyway, I hope Floyd is innocent and didn't cheat.

Oh, and the guy who said that cyclists are the most tested athletes, or something similar does not understand the testing process. Many sample of urine are taken, not all are TESTED. Testing is expensive. And, cycling, meaning the UCI, has not taken the lead, the European police have been in the vanguard of the raids. The UCI has a tawdry history of not asking cyclists too many questions. Five Dutch cyclists died of EPO use before they got remotely serious about drug use. They still have a long way to go, IMHO.

-Robert

Condoleezza
07-30-2006, 12:54 PM
You had to be there (wo?)man. It was mostly how he said it but he did say he's always tested high for testosterone and also that the testing wasn't complete and it was the this first glance that made things look bad.
Anywho, innocent until proved guilty, ain't that the deal?


No, that's not the rule.
If the B probe has the same result he is out - and he knows it.
That's the proof, that's the rule.

Condi

nickybol
07-30-2006, 12:55 PM
Which five dutch cyclists died of EPO?

Where did you find not all samples are tested?

How do you know he was tested the day before and after his positive sample?

If the results of earlier test were the same, he would have been caught earlier, wouldn`t he?

Condoleezza
07-30-2006, 12:57 PM
Well another top athlete, Justin Gatlin, has now, apparently taken drugs.http://www.skysports.com/skysports/article/0,,1-1229266,00.html
Why, why, why?.....:(


Because there is a lot of money involved.

Condi

chess9
07-30-2006, 09:03 PM
Which five dutch cyclists died of EPO?

Where did you find not all samples are tested?

How do you know he was tested the day before and after his positive sample?

If the results of earlier test were the same, he would have been caught earlier, wouldn`t he?

Nicky: Look in the other thread I mentioned in my first post above for reference to an article that discusses some of your questions. It wasn't just 5 Dutch cyclists, actually. I would guess close to 100 cyclists, at least, have died from EPO use. EPO use combined with dehydration is a deadly combination. The blood becomes very thick and inevitably clots.

It's well-known that the sports federations cannot afford to have test panels run on all urine and blood samples. The banned list is huge. I'd guess they have over 200 compounds they have to test for and since they've even caught THC (cannibis) they must go pretty deep into the list. Have you paid for a simple CBC lately? My doctor charges $120, the VA much less of course. (I'm a veteran.) Anyway, one of the reasons the athletes cheat is because they know just because urine is taken doesn't mean they will be actually tested and caught. The devil is in the details when it comes to understanding how and what the sports federations are doing. Shoot Major League Baseball an email and ask them detailed questions about their drug testing program and see what you get back. Look at the ITF website if you want to know NOTHING about their drug testing.

The more I look at this mess, the more I'm certain that a huge part of the problem is the sports federations' inability and unwillingness to confront drug use in a serious way with a strong, expensive program. Also, we still don't have good, economical tests for hGh and insulin use.

Yes, to your question about his earlier results. This suggests that: a)The earlier tests weren't carried out; b)The earlier tests were negative; c) This "A" sample was contaminated; d) The earlier samples were contaminated, among the possibilities.

-Robert

chess9
07-30-2006, 09:16 PM
Here's a brief note on EPO, by the way. This stuff would be very helpful to tennis players trying to get through a 5th set...IF it didn't kill them.
http://www.velonews.com/phorum3/read.php?f=4&i=11814&t=11814

That article has a cite to a longer, more detailed article on the problem. EPO use has been a huge problem in cycling.

Here is a more restrained and scientific article:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/408596_print

-Robert

chess9
07-31-2006, 12:27 AM
"The aftermath of 2006 Tour de France winner Floyd Landis' positive A probe for performance-enhancing hormone testosterone is far from over. Germany's public TV stations *** and ZDF have since questioned their transmission of cycling races if the sports biggest problem is not solved, and the German cycling federation called for an anti-doping law in Germany on Saturday, one day prior to the ProTour one-day race Vattenfall Cyclassics in Hamburg.

To explain the positive doping test result after stage 17 of the Tour de France, which he won after an impressive solo ride in high mountains, Landis has argued that his relatively high level of testosterone was naturally produced by his own body. The analytical basis for the test being the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone, normally averaging 1:1, a suspicion of doping is being issued if this ratio is higher than 4:1.

In Landis' case, German media have on Sunday rumoured the result to be 11:1. "In our medical files appear not only blood levels, but also our testosterone status," said professional cyclists' representative Jens Voigt before the race. "It shouldn't be hard to find out if Landis is telling the truth."

But, much more important than this seems to be that the tests performed on Landis' A sample included an Isotope Ratio Mass Spectrometry (IRMS) procedure, used to determine whether the testosterone is exogenous (contained within, but originating from outside the body) or endogenous (produced by the body itself). In the case of the American, L'Equipe reported that the analysis found testosterone of artificial origin.

Jose Maria Buxeda, Landis' attorney, contests the detection method via IRMS. "It's not reliable," he told French L'Equipe. "Most laboratories do not use it. In fact, the laboratory of Chatenay-Malabry must be the only one still using it." In the same edition of the paper, however, Christiane Ayotte, director of the anti-doping laboratory in Montreal, Canada, disagrees. "We use the method regularly," she said. "Moreover, more than half of the WADA-accredited labs perform it successfully. I'd even say that an IRMS which gives a synthetic result is very hard to contest. It's not a method that anyone can apply but the LNDD (Laboratoire de Chatenay-Malabry) has totally proven itself in this domain."

It has been pointed out that Landis' thyroid problems, the treatment of his inflamed hip with corticosteroids, as well as drinking alcohol on the night prior to stage 17, could be factors which could have affected his testosterone levels. "As soon as an athlete is controlled positive for testosterone, the same old stories come up," Ayotte continued. "The increase, even if natural, of the ratio testosterone/epitestosterone cannot, in any case, be explained by taking thyroid hormones or corticosteroids. Alcohol can in fact influence it, but only with women, and only for three or four hours."



-Robert

Steve Dykstra
07-31-2006, 10:13 AM
No, that's not the rule.
If the B probe has the same result he is out - and he knows it.
That's the proof, that's the rule.

Condi

Not how it works, buddy. Read the other posts.

max
07-31-2006, 10:35 AM
It would be extremely discouraging if he doped. I guess it makes no sense at all to look at elite athletes as role models, or positive encouragers of their sport. Instead, maybe the dopers are parasites on their sports.

chess9
07-31-2006, 10:58 AM
Max:

That is Charlie Francis' take on it. The guys who are the heroes are the ones doping. The guys finishing at the back of the peloton, who you will almost never hear about are probably clean (but no guarantees!)

There are still quite a few athletes out there who are clean, I'm sure, but the worm has turned. Everyone in pro sports is now suspect. In fact, at my club, because I'm very fit and a bit muscular, I've had two guys ask me if I take steroids!! If I've been taking steroids, I need to get my money back, but sheezh, has it come to this?

-Robert

Craig Sheppard
08-03-2006, 05:35 AM
You don't have to believe me, but you could read this:

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10633.0.html

"An unnamed retired Italian sprinter insists that cycling has lost the war on doping and that no one can win major three-week races like the Giro d'Italia without resorting to banned performance-enhancing practices."

My guess is it's Cippolini... but that's rather irrelavent.

One thing that just came out that kills me is, the entire Astana-Wurth team was cleared, meaning Alexandrei Vinikourov couldn't race for absolutely no reason. Alejandro Valverde is back racing, so he got chucked for no reason as well.

nickybol
08-03-2006, 08:47 AM
Alejandro Valverde crashed in one of the first stages, he wasn`t banned from the tour...

Craig Sheppard
08-03-2006, 11:00 AM
Alejandro Valverde crashed in one of the first stages, he wasn`t banned from the tour...

Dang that's right, how soon I forget....

simi
08-03-2006, 11:57 AM
"The aftermath of 2006 Tour de France winner Floyd Landis' positive A probe for performance-enhancing hormone testosterone is far from over...

When it comes to American athletes, I take with a grain of salt anything that L'Equipe has to say.

nickybol
08-03-2006, 02:04 PM
L`equipe doesn`t say it. The labs are saying he was positive, Landis is saying, the UCI is saying it.

By the way, I don`t know if it was mentioned earlier here, but the testosterone has been tested, and it was partly external. That means it isn`t from his body.

chess9
08-04-2006, 04:23 AM
L`equipe doesn`t say it. The labs are saying he was positive, Landis is saying, the UCI is saying it.

By the way, I don`t know if it was mentioned earlier here, but the testosterone has been tested, and it was partly external. That means it isn`t from his body.

I'm afraid I agree with simi. I don't trust the French labs to do a fair analysis of an American athlete since the Armstrong case. And THIS lab is the one implicated in the Armstrong case as well. The reason I don't trust them is because someone, probably at the lab, released test sample results belonging to Armstrong to L'Equipe. Furthermore, in triathlon, no test results are released for an athlete until all appeals are taken. That is a much better approach than releasing all these details before we know the true score and all the evidence is in. Right now, this lab has ruined Landis' reputation even if he is proven to be innocent! What a debacle for sports testing. This also demonstrates how lax this whole testing scene really is and how low the federations have sunk. The whole thing is a mess. I think the test results should be ignored by most Americans.

Btw, I suggest that all the federations let the Japanese do 99% of all testing, excepting where their athletes are involved. You know it will be done right and fairly. Oh, and I'm of 1/2 French extraction, so this pains me to say.

-Robert

ACE of Hearts
08-04-2006, 06:32 AM
Actually Landis should quit lying and say he cheated!He said his level was natural and then a test came out saying it wasnt.I think Landis cheated and should admit too it!

Ganz
09-01-2006, 05:51 AM
Here's to Floyd Landis, 2007 TdF champ. . . amazing story!

Too amazing it seems...

FLOYD LANDIS RESPONDS TO UCI ANNOUNCEMENT OF POSITIVE ‘B’ SAMPLE — Landis To Appeal Laboratory Findings and Actions of UCI in ‘A’ Sample Leak
August 5th, 2006
The UCI (International Cycling Union) today announced that the results of the ‘B’ analysis conducted on Floyd Landis’s urine sample of July 20, 2006 are consistent with the findings of the ‘A’ sample. Both samples were taken following Landis’s victory in stage 17 of the Tour de France. The results of the ‘A’ sample were released on July 26. Landis will pursue the appeal procedures established by the UCI in order to overturn the laboratory results. It is expected that the matter will now be referred to USA Cycling.

Landis, who has not used performance-enhancing substances, maintains his innocence in this case and believes that he will be vindicated of the doping charges.