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View Full Version : Is Division II and III College Tennis really 3.5?


netman
07-18-2004, 06:51 PM
I've been playing USTA 3.5 for a couple of seasons as I return to tennis after a back injury and I keep running into former Div II and III college players. The competition is great and a lot of fun, but is Div II and III tennis really equivalent to a USTA 3.5 ranking? I thought 3.5 meant average, as in middle of the bell curve. Most of my 3.5 buddies wouldn't stand a chance against these guys. I guess during my leave of absence, the curve shifted right and average got a lot better. :)

If this is true, I'm really ticked off, cause I could have played college tennis, at least based on these guys current ranking.

Marc C.
07-18-2004, 07:34 PM
I don't believe that division 2 and 3 college tennis is at a 3.5 level. I know ranked 12 year olds at this level not to put anyone down who is a 3.5. Also, the former no.1 from my team plays for Tufts which i believe is division 3 and is much better than a 3.5, closer to 5.5.

TwistServe
07-18-2004, 07:38 PM
haha hell no.. one of my coaches played division II and he plays USTA 5.5 and Open tornaments..

highschool kids play 3.5, i doubt the worst division II play 3.5...

maybe division III plays 4.0-4.5, but 3.5 is your basic beginner/pusher

aceindahole2K5
07-18-2004, 10:05 PM
worst D3 player you could find would be a 4.0, i know several guys on a top 10 national D3 team, all over 4.5,varsity over 5.0, btw Tufts is D2 i believe

netman
07-19-2004, 04:06 AM
So I guess it must be sand bagging, though why anyone would play down escapes me. I guess the need to win is more important than the competition.

gorth97, I think 2.5 is your basic beginner/pusher. A 3.5 player should have ball control, good serves and a good understanding of point construction and the ability to execute it.

New Balls
07-19-2004, 11:16 AM
As a former d3 coach a year ago, I can tell you I've seen more than enough players who should not have been playing college tennis. Granted, we were in a dinky weak d3 conference, but still, some of those matches were sad. My high school team could have beaten them. We even played a local 4.5 team and got schooled. Granted the 4.5 team is headed to sectionals, but getting beat badly by a bunch of 40-50 yo guys doesn't say much for your program. Even worse, the other conference teams we played (not all, but some) were even more pathetic than us. Let's just say I'd rather watch a USTA 4.5 league match. I'd say our guys side had some good 4.0 to 4.5 players, while the girls side was 4.0 on down. It was sad, but goes to show that anyone can play college tennis, as there are plenty of small programs out there that can barely find enough walk-ons to have a team. The aforementioned conference is in the southwest part of the US, in the middle of nowhere, so everyone has to drive about 5hrs to the nearest school to play a match. Try recruiting local talent where there is no local talent...oh recruit from somewhere else you say, well, who wants to go to a rinky dink school in a one-horse town in the middle of nowhere? Remember, d3 has no athletic scholarships...

tennisnj
07-19-2004, 12:45 PM
How about playing for a Big East D1 school that had worse facilities then most high schools? How about playing for that same D1 school who routinely lost to D2s, D3s & a few CC's along the way. Granted that school since I've left (probably no coincidence) has definately turned it around, but all I care about what how the team was when I was there.

tennis-n-sc
07-19-2004, 04:03 PM
I have officiated matches that involved Division I all the way down to juniors. What I have observed is that it depends on the importance that the particular school places on tennis, the availibility of scholarship or other aid, and the recruiting ability and connections of the coaching staff. There are some DI schools that have pitiful teams and some DIII teams that are very good. You can find 3.5's or worse (not beginners or pushers) playing in smaller private schools and some public. If the coach or staff has the right connections, they can put a great team of foreign students on the courts. Many from South America, Eastern Europe and Australia. The Clemson women have an assistant coach from France and they have many French and European gals on the roster. They were a top 10 team this year. But all and all, a 3.5 player would get embarrassed on the vast majority of college courts, regardless of the division or gender.

jun
07-19-2004, 09:44 PM
I agree with the post above.
I know one guy who played D3 tennis. He's between 4.5 ~ 5.0, real solid baseliner. He's playing 5.0 league right now.

From what I have heard, he has seen some bad players in 3.5s But then he had to play a few players who used to be in D1 tennis in some tournament. He ended up beating 2 of them, I think.

kevhen
07-20-2004, 12:53 PM
High school is usually 3.5 with D3 being 4.0-5.0. D1 is mostly 5.0s and up

Reza
07-22-2004, 05:54 AM
I just graduated from a middle of the road d-II conference. WIth the exception of one team (where two players had accrued ATP Points), the general level of the players was 4.0-5.5, but pretty much everyone was a 4.5-5.0. We had one team in our conference who probably didn't have one player who was even a 4.5, and they hadn't won a match in years. I was rated 5.0, was third in our lineup, and we finished seventh in a league of twelve last year. Now that I have left school though, you become so much less sharp, your serve isn't as consistent, and you don't finish as well. Maybe you can still even get a rating of 5.0 or 4.5 or whatever, but the fact is that once you leave college tennis, the lack of 2hrs of practicing per day really affects your game and you are not the player you once were, which may explain the original poster's thoughts

Reza
07-22-2004, 05:55 AM
sorry, did I say atp points---my parents must be cousins. what i meant was that they had a national ranking and had both won different challenger events

Cobra Tennis
07-22-2004, 09:53 PM
Each school depending on how seriously it takes tennis, and financial award, will vary ratings.

rcaldwell01
07-27-2004, 09:24 AM
Depends, I played DI college tennis in Texas and there were some DII and DIII schools that were loaded w/ DI rejects who couldn't get into DI schools and the teams were incredible. One team in San Antonio, Incarnate Word was either DII or DIII and they had a doubles team that made to the quarterfinals of NCAA DI doubles through the wildcard. Just depends.

bleach
08-12-2004, 08:29 AM
The Southern Section of the USTA has release guidelines for elite players:

http://www.southern.usta.com/usaleaguetennis/custom.sps?iType=987&icustompageid=10935

I think based on this a former Div II/III player (under 40) would be a 4.0 at a minimum. It also looks like they are going to start punishing the Captains and the players if there are abuses.

There's a former college player/teaching pro that is asking to join my 3.5 team. I have not seen him play, but based on this, I'm not going to put him on the team.

Bleach

Power Game
08-12-2004, 11:33 AM
Dvision II and III is at least 4.5+ for the kids who play (i'm one of them)

counterpunch
08-18-2004, 09:59 AM
I don't think high school is necessarily 3.5. I can beat 4.0s pretty badly and I might not even make varsity.

goober
08-19-2004, 06:27 AM
nm





.........

counterpunch
08-19-2004, 09:15 AM
My team last year had a top 20 in the nation player at #1. A former #1 in our section player at #2, a VERY highly ranked player that moved from South America (I think he was supposed to be one of the best in his country). Then we had a few very good doubles specialists, one that serves 115+.

Brad Smith
08-23-2004, 12:07 PM
Looking at this from the other side of things, I think that the NTRP ratings vary greatly across the country and in many cases better players are playing at lower levels than they were 5-10 years ago. For example, at my club we have a 4.5 team with many former Div 1 and Div 2 players. Another team in this district had a guy who self-rated 4.5 who was top 50 in the boy's 18's a few years ago and played for a top 10 Div 1 program. No one wants to be a 5.0 anymore because there aren't any teams. I realize this isn't happening everywhere, but when it does happen in an area guys who would be 4.5's most other places are suddenly getting beat badly and pushed down to 4.0, and this continues down the line. If you are in one of these areas your NTRP level won't necessarily reflect your true level, and you could be playing against average Div 2 and Div 3 players at 3.5 or 4.0. That doesn't mean they're really 3.5 or 4.0.

Cameron
10-08-2008, 07:04 PM
hey, sorry i don't have an answer to your question, but i just became a member and i was wondering if anyone can tell me how to ask a question on here. Like, how to start a thread or post. Sorry, i feel really stupid asking this question, but i can't figure it out. thanks a bunch:)

WBF
10-09-2008, 05:29 AM
It depends on the team. Generalizing in this sense is stupid. There are plenty of 3.5's in D3 and perhaps D2 tennis (I only played D3, so not sure about D2, I would imagine they have them as well). Hell, there are 3.0's who play college tennis. Of course, I ended up at a school where we had several 4.5's who didn't even get to play often.

NickC
10-09-2008, 03:50 PM
Eric Boutrac played DIII. He's now top 50 in the world for doubles. I think that pretty much settles it.

beernutz
10-09-2008, 08:21 PM
hey, sorry i don't have an answer to your question, but i just became a member and i was wondering if anyone can tell me how to ask a question on here. Like, how to start a thread or post. Sorry, i feel really stupid asking this question, but i can't figure it out. thanks a bunch:)

So you just happened to dig up a 4 year old thread and reply to it to ask a question on how to start a new thread? I guess stranger things have happened here. I am pretty sure I'm being leveled but just in case:
http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/5562/twsske7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/twsske7.jpg/1/w377.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img73/twsske7.jpg/1/)

Cameron
10-10-2008, 03:58 PM
Wow, ya right after I posted that, I saw the date, I didn't know how to delete it. But, it worked, thank you so much for answering my question, it helped a lot!!! :) I'm actually looking for the college talk, I am a junior in high school, but I found it under the Adult League and Tournament Talk. Well, thanks so much for helping me out!

WBF
10-10-2008, 04:04 PM
Eric Boutrac played DIII. He's now top 50 in the world for doubles. I think that pretty much settles it.

He's the first D3 player to ever win a pro tourney though (IIRC)... And he was a top player in D3 as well.

beernutz
10-12-2008, 11:10 AM
Wow, ya right after I posted that, I saw the date, I didn't know how to delete it. But, it worked, thank you so much for answering my question, it helped a lot!!! :) I'm actually looking for the college talk, I am a junior in high school, but I found it under the Adult League and Tournament Talk. Well, thanks so much for helping me out!

No problem Cameron, welcome to the board. Glad to help out a fellow Alabamian.

sphinx780
10-14-2008, 09:38 AM
He's the first D3 player to ever win a pro tourney though (IIRC)... And he was a top player in D3 as well.

From what I'm reading in this thread, it sounds like any level is possible for a college player based on where they end up playing. Same with our perception of the ntrp rating level based on where we are in the country.

I played practice team for Concordia College (same division as Gustavus) almost 12 years back. Playing 2x a week now and after a 2nd knee surgery, I'm a decent 4.5 player but can compete at 5.0 when I'm 'on'. I'd say back then I was a solid 5.0+ and without seeing other divisions, would have never fathomed that a 3.5 could play DIII. When we played Gustavus (pre-booty era), we were lucky to get a few sets. They have always been a cut above the rest in this conference....only the U of M (DI) could really compete back then...Gustavus is not your typical DIII school.

sureshs
10-14-2008, 09:45 AM
I don't think high school is necessarily 3.5. I can beat 4.0s pretty badly and I might not even make varsity.

Here in San Diego, high school boys are easily 4.5 and above. Girls are a (men's) 4.0 at least. They actually play club open socials with adults at these levels once in a while and win.

TonLars
10-14-2008, 10:03 AM
From what I'm reading in this thread, it sounds like any level is possible for a college player based on where they end up playing. Same with our perception of the ntrp rating level based on where we are in the country.

I played practice team for Concordia College (same division as Gustavus) almost 12 years back. Playing 2x a week now and after a 2nd knee surgery, I'm a decent 4.5 player but can compete at 5.0 when I'm 'on'. I'd say back then I was a solid 5.0+ and without seeing other divisions, would have never fathomed that a 3.5 could play DIII. When we played Gustavus (pre-booty era), we were lucky to get a few sets. They have always been a cut above the rest in this conference....only the U of M (DI) could really compete back then...Gustavus is not your typical DIII school.

Hello! So youre saying you were only on the practice squad for Concordia as a 5.0+ player?????
If you were 5.0 plus then you would be one of their best, if not their #1 player.

Gustavus is pretty tough, U of M definitely is always far stronger though. Theyre still tough, but id say back around your era they had some stronger teams when they could win the national championships.

sphinx780
10-14-2008, 10:21 AM
Hello! So youre saying you were only on the practice squad for Concordia as a 5.0+ player?????
If you were 5.0 plus then you would be one of their best, if not their #1 player.

Gustavus is pretty tough, U of M definitely is always far stronger though. Theyre still tough, but id say back around your era they had some stronger teams when they could win the national championships.


Absolutely, the U would still kill Gustavus the way GAC was taking the rest of us down, but GAC would compete and make a match out of things.

Being a consistent 4.5 player in USTA at 30 after two knee surgeries now, I have a hard time believing that when I could move and was practicing 3 hours a day that I wasn't at least a half step up from my current play back then. Could be wrong though but I don't think I was ever talented enough to keep my level of play up with limited play.

zidane339
10-14-2008, 10:47 AM
Here at Carnegie Mellon, all the guys are 5.0 and above. Watching their matches and the rallies they have is insanely fun.Defintly not 3.5 rallies

Purely Driven
10-14-2008, 11:36 AM
I sincerely doubt it, watching the "just" IM teams play here and at my old University is impressive, and all those players consisted of ex-superchamps who didn't get into Varsity programs.

bluetrain4
10-15-2008, 08:10 PM
No DII players are 3.5. Rarely would one even be a 4.0.

A few schools with weak tennis programs in DIII may have a 3.5 at the bottom of the lineup, but very few. 4.0s are fairly common at the weaker to average schools.

But, once you get to the top DIII schools (Top 30), everything is 4.5 and above.

ttbrowne
10-16-2008, 08:23 AM
About the lowest I've seen at our club is a D3 player at the high end of 4.0. He played 25-30 years ago at a small college.

Racer41c
10-16-2008, 08:34 AM
So I guess it must be sand bagging, though why anyone would play down escapes me. I guess the need to win is more important than the competition.

gorth97, I think 2.5 is your basic beginner/pusher. A 3.5 player should have ball control, good serves and a good understanding of point construction and the ability to execute it.


I think your 3.5 description is closer to 4.0

ssjkyle31
10-16-2008, 08:59 AM
Here something to think about. Take a look at at some of there players.
http://www.sdcity.edu/athletics/ia/sports/tenw/photos.asp

goober
10-16-2008, 09:21 AM
Here something to think about. Take a look at at some of there players.
http://www.sdcity.edu/athletics/ia/sports/tenw/photos.asp

Well those are Juco players so they can be anywhere from 3.5-5.0. Women's tennis is a little different. If you are good ball striker and can take the ball on the rise, you can get away with being heavy set. Take look at some of the well known portly WTA players.

heninfan99
10-19-2008, 02:52 PM
Yes the bell curve absolutely shifted with the switch to self-rating. I think winning 3.5 teams are like 4.0s in the mid-90s.

I liked the old system. The would had you a card, often with a minus or a plus after your rating. It really helped. But I guess the positive side of self-rating is that with a few clicks of a mouse to can start the process of playing on a team.

Railbird
10-24-2008, 11:49 PM
There isnt much diffrence between D1 and D3, sometimes D3 players are better, depends on the program. D3 gives out schlarships where maybe D1 gives out half scholarship or has tougher requirements. IT is not like college football.

Railbird
10-24-2008, 11:50 PM
From what I'm reading in this thread, it sounds like any level is possible for a college player based on where they end up playing. Same with our perception of the ntrp rating level based on where we are in the country.

I played practice team for Concordia College (same division as Gustavus) almost 12 years back. Playing 2x a week now and after a 2nd knee surgery, I'm a decent 4.5 player but can compete at 5.0 when I'm 'on'. I'd say back then I was a solid 5.0+ and without seeing other divisions, would have never fathomed that a 3.5 could play DIII. When we played Gustavus (pre-booty era), we were lucky to get a few sets. They have always been a cut above the rest in this conference....only the U of M (DI) could really compete back then...Gustavus is not your typical DIII school.

3.5 national champions usually are 4.5's across the board maybe a token 4.0 and a token 3.5