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juani
08-04-2006, 08:25 AM
for me the GOAT racing driver was Fangio cos his driving skills were a least 10+ years in advance in relation to the other drivers (they learned a lot following him). He change the way of drive a racing car. He was the father of modern racing techniques. He beated powerfull ferraris with crappy cars and won 5 champ titles.
Schumy won 7 titles but only when he have the best car.......can he win a race with a crappy car????? No way.

Talking about the modern era of F1 it think Ayrton Senna da Silva was the best.
He was great. When he was young and still racing in Brazil he was invited to race in British F2. With a crappy car he made the pole and won the race. After that he start his way to the top.
In 1984 (his 1st season in F1) he was racing in Monaco on a rainny day (with a ****** car of course) and he kicked Prost *** (racing with McLaren) an finished 1st but the authorities finished the race 1 lap before Senna overtake Prost.
He was the best in rain. Once i think in 1992 started to rain in the middle of a rece and he didn't change tires, he raced with slick!!! you have to have big balls to do that.
Senna was so passionate and he transmitted that passion to the people. Someone remember his funeral. Was incredible, so many people. I think only popes had bigger funerals than Senna.
These are little things that make someone big IMO.
And of course he won 3 titles and had great battles against Prost and Mansell.

I think Schumy doesn't transmit pasion to his fans.....he looks like a bitter guy to me. He only won when he has the best car. Maybe is not schumy's fault.....i think we live in an era where the best F1 car wins no matter who's sitting on it. And races are so boring............you pass cars on the pits and not on the track...... this sucks.
IMO the Prost, Senna era was the last where a good pilot could make some difference.

Caswell
08-04-2006, 08:40 AM
Schumacher's legacy would have benefitted had Senna not been killed. His problem is that he's been a dominant driver without a true rival. Senna had the benefit of his battles with Prost and Mansell to forge his legacy. Look at things today for another example - no one would be impressed with Alonso if he hadn't won with Schumacher still in the field.

To say that Schumacher only wins because he has the best car is naive. His first two championships were certainly not in the best car - neither teammate did anything spectacular with the other Benneton. Moving on, Ferrari is where it is today exactly because of Schumacher. They were not a dominant team prior to his arrival, and at times were a complete laughing stock (i.e. the 1992 season). His dominance in years past at Ferrari was the product of his own labors.

Senna... bah. No disrespect intended, but his legacy was inflated by his death. Over ten years since his death and idiots are still paying $50 for a t-shirt with his name on it at the GP's.

p0w3r
08-04-2006, 09:24 AM
I agree with caswell...although shmui isnit my favorite driver...i consider him to be one of the best drivers in F1 history. he has always been able to out shine his teamates by a long shot and he did make is first F1 start in a Jordan where despite the lack of experience, he was able to match the teams best season qualifying position of seventh. and the dominance of ferrari was all started when schumacher joined the team in 1996.

Shabazza
08-04-2006, 09:29 AM
I agree with caswell...although shmui isnit my favorite driver...i consider him to be one of the best drivers in F1 history. he has always been able to out shine his teamates by a long shot and he did make is first F1 start in a Jordan where despite the lack of experience, he was able to match the teams best season qualifying position of seventh. and the dominance of ferrari was all started when schumacher joined the team in 1996.
Ditto!

HyperHorse
08-04-2006, 09:29 AM
A true rival??? give me a break...
Damon Hill challenged strongly for the F1 championship in both '94 and '95 when Schuey won at his time @ Benneton... Both championships were decided, if my memory serves me at the last race in Adelaide, which both ended in controversial circumstances....
Schumacher then was no 2 in '97 as he made progress with the Ferrari team after joining them the year before... He was disqualified for giving Villeneuve the "chop" at Jerez after Villeneuve tried to overtake Schuey...
he then had to wait til 2000 before he won his next championship, as he had to battle with Mika Hakkinnen & his team mate David Coulthard @ Mclaren...
Schumacher is a master tactician as well as a great driver who knows when to do what....
Senna's death is indeed unfortunate....
I'll never forget the day after @ high school everyone in my social circles talking about it, all shocked...

armand
08-04-2006, 09:43 AM
If I were to start a Formula One team, I'd want Schumacher. There's so much more to F1 than just driving and as p0w3r says, he totally turned Ferrari around. Of course, he's a great driver: I remember at the beginning of 1996 Irvine described the Ferrari as "an accident waiting to happen". Schumacher then went on to win 3 Grand Prixs with that car.

Another thing to look at is Pole Position vs Grand Prix win ratio. If you're on pole, I think that generally means you have the best car. And if you don't win with the best car, that ain't good.
And if you're not on pole and you end up winning the race, well I think that was a pretty damn good drive.
So, having looked at that, it looks like Schumacher was a far better driver than Senna. Senna had far more pole positions than Grand Prix wins. Schumacher has had more wins than poles.

Caswell
08-04-2006, 09:44 AM
Schumacher hasn't had a true rival in the sense that others have come and gone beneath him. Yes, Hill and Villeneuve challenged him for short periods of time. Hakkinen as well. The problem is that they all came and when during his tenure.

Senna had the benefit of a career-long rivalry with Prost. When Prost stepped out of the picture in the beginning of the nineties, Mansell stepped in to challenge.

I've been an F1 fan for most of my life, attending close to 20 Grands Prix. I've seen a lot of guys come and go since 1991, but Schumacher has been a presence since he took over for Gachot at Spa.

Caswell
08-04-2006, 09:47 AM
So, having looked at that, it looks like Schumacher was a far better driver than Senna. Senna had far more pole positions than Grand Prix wins. Schumacher has had more wins than poles.

That's part of the magic of Senna though. His qualifying performance. I hated the guy when he was alive, but damn, some of his performances in quali took your breath away. Same with his ability to drive in the rain.

vkartikv
08-04-2006, 10:27 AM
The first f1 race I saw was unfortunately Senna's last. Actually that's what intrigued me into it - how someone could plough into a wall and be in a brain-dead state for 2 days. I cannot compare Schumacher to Senna but I know that Senna was as agressive as Schumacher. He once slapped a driver for lapping him :)

As far as I am concerned, Schumacher is not only the best f1 driver but best sportsman of all time. Look at Eddie Jordan's team and how their team got on the f1 map after Schuey started racing for them. The same applies to the ungrateful Briatore and his Benneton renault. Ferrari had no champion since 1979's Sheckter and Schuey came in and look where they are now. He is all talent, no one can beat him. He is the wiz.

As for Schumacher not having a good rival, I think the fact that he was almost always in the 2nd best team (in the 90s) is rivalry enough.

Edit: Now that I have read juani's post, I have more to add:
Schuey won only when he had the best car?????? Who said the Benetton renault of 94 and 95 was better than the williams or mclarens around? And what about the ferraris of the late 90s? Do you recall Magny cours 1997 when the car broke down on no less than the WARMUP lap???? He still finished just a few pts adrift of Villeneuve that year. And when Hakkinen won, he had the fastest car, as you could tell from his famous overtaking move in Spa '00. You have your facts all wrong.

And mate, from your posts I think you more about formula1 than the average guy but do you not know that pitstop strategies, conserving tires and fuel is more important than driving fast and recklessly like one Mr. Takuma Sato???

This just in: Alonso will struggle to make it to the top 10 in the grid after picking up a 2 second penalty. :)

oscar_2424
08-04-2006, 12:13 PM
Senna no doubtm, i didnt see Fangio so i cant speak about him

Janne
08-04-2006, 01:18 PM
Mika Häkkinen

juani
08-04-2006, 01:26 PM
As you can see i'm not a schumy fan but i'm not against him. I'm against what F1 became. In the past great pilots can make a difference over cars and become champs (Fangio). In the 80's a great pilot could win couple of races and have some podiums with a crappy car (Senna). Nowadays, Senna, Schumy or any driver CAN'T WIN A RACE with a Toro Rosso car for example.


In 1994 Senna got all poles (till he died) but the car beaks in every race. So IMO benetton was better car cos it was more reliable than Williams. McLarens sucks a that time.

1996:
best car: Williams
best driver: Schumy
Champ: Damon Hill

1997:
best car: Williams
best driver: Schumy
Champ: Jacques Villeneuve

1998 and 1999:
Best car: McLaren
Best driver: Schumy
Champ: Hakkinen

2000-2004:
Best car: Ferrari
Best driver: Schumy
Champ: Schumy

2005:
Best car: Reanult
Best driver: Schumy
Champ: Alonso

Ferrari was always one of the strongest teams, maybe the strongest one. They are the team that for the last 15 years spend more money and resources. Got a great development in I+D. Schumy helps, but, for me, his help is minimal in relation of all the money and resources and I+D that Ferrari have.
Why don't to let schumy try to take Minardi to the 1st position of constructor champ with the same Minardi's budget.......that's impossible.

Why bernie Ecclestone is changing the rules every season......cos now is so boring...the best cars wins always.....is so predictable.

We should invent "pit stop races" cos nowadays the rest of the race is disposable.

IMO
before: drivers won races........cars were secondary.
nowadays: cars win races............drivers are secondary.

SydneyJim
08-04-2006, 03:00 PM
Valentino Rossi MotoGP champion will be racing with Schummy in 07'

zhan
08-04-2006, 03:25 PM
schumacher is pretty damn good... if not the greatest ever
-.^
im serious

cricri
08-04-2006, 07:25 PM
Schumacher all the way

khs_tennis
08-04-2006, 07:44 PM
I think Schumi is by far the best F1 driver of all time. I think Adely's poles vs. wins ratio is a very good stat to look at when arguing this debate because it is very true. But as of now, Schumi has a rival and the heat for the world championship has been turned up now. I guess we'll have to see how long Schumi stays in F1 to see how this rivalry brews up between him and Alonso, especially with Alonso going to Mclaren with perhaps splitting #1 status in the team with Kimi.

vkartikv
08-04-2006, 08:47 PM
Spare a thought for Cristiano Da Matta who is still in intensive care after being hit by a deer during practice. Of all the things to crash into, a deer! Poor bloke. Hope he recovers and can lead a normal life.

Deuce
08-04-2006, 09:10 PM
It's amazing that so many good words are typed about Schumacher, who has proven himself to be the most unsportsmanlike and biggest cheat in the history of Formula One.

Best driver ever? Villeneuve should be on the short list.
Gilles, that is.

Docalex007
08-05-2006, 06:11 AM
It's amazing that so many good words are typed about Schumacher, who has proven himself to be the most unsportsmanlike and biggest cheat in the history of Formula One.

Best driver ever? Villeneuve should be on the short list.
Gilles, that is.

Example?

diegaa
08-05-2006, 06:22 AM
Example?

im not an f1 follower, but didnt schumi stop on a curve (i dont recall the race)on the qualies last year to disturb other racers? i think he was penalised for that move.

Mr.Federer
08-05-2006, 10:37 AM
Gilles Villeneuve...too bad his career got cut short and his son isn't half the driver that his father was.

Caswell
08-05-2006, 10:39 AM
It's amazing that so many good words are typed about Schumacher, who has proven himself to be the most unsportsmanlike and biggest cheat in the history of Formula One.

Best driver ever? Villeneuve should be on the short list.
Gilles, that is.

I'm sure all of the Senna fans will forget that his last championship was won by intentionally running into Prost. Senna admitted that it was intentional.

Alonso... he was growing on me, but he's turning into a whiner.

As for sportsmanship in racing, I think some of you don't understand how cutthroat professional motor racing is, F1 in particular. There's a great quote "you're either cheating, or trying to figure out how to cheat." Also, Michael Andretti was a great sportsman who got chewed up and spit out when he tried his hand at F1.

Ripper
08-05-2006, 10:59 AM
Ayrton Senna... PERIOD! Not, even, going to bother reading anything else here, other than the title.

armand
08-05-2006, 12:19 PM
I'm sure all of the Senna fans will forget that his last championship was won by intentionally running into Prost. Senna admitted that it was intentional.

Alonso... he was growing on me, but he's turning into a whiner.

As for sportsmanship in racing, I think some of you don't understand how cutthroat professional motor racing is, F1 in particular. There's a great quote "you're either cheating, or trying to figure out how to cheat." Also, Michael Andretti was a great sportsman who got chewed up and spit out when he tried his hand at F1.His father was world champion in 1978 I think but only competed in F1 for a short time. Is that why he left, because it was so cut throat?

And yeah, I think people forget how alike Schuey and Senna were because I think Senna was a very warm person outside of the car. But in it, he was vicious.

Condoleezza
08-05-2006, 02:04 PM
for me the GOAT racing driver was Fangio cos his driving skills were a least 10+ years in advance in relation to the other drivers (they learned a lot following him). He change the way of drive a racing car. He was the father of modern racing techniques. He beated powerfull ferraris with crappy cars and won 5 champ titles.
Schumy won 7 titles but only when he have the best car.......can he win a race with a crappy car????? No way.

Talking about the modern era of F1 it think Ayrton Senna da Silva was the best.
He was great. When he was young and still racing in Brazil he was invited to race in British F2. With a crappy car he made the pole and won the race. After that he start his way to the top.
In 1984 (his 1st season in F1) he was racing in Monaco on a rainny day (with a ****** car of course) and he kicked Prost *** (racing with McLaren) an finished 1st but the authorities finished the race 1 lap before Senna overtake Prost.
He was the best in rain. Once i think in 1992 started to rain in the middle of a rece and he didn't change tires, he raced with slick!!! you have to have big balls to do that.
Senna was so passionate and he transmitted that passion to the people. Someone remember his funeral. Was incredible, so many people. I think only popes had bigger funerals than Senna.
These are little things that make someone big IMO.
And of course he won 3 titles and had great battles against Prost and Mansell.

I think Schumy doesn't transmit pasion to his fans.....he looks like a bitter guy to me. He only won when he has the best car. Maybe is not schumy's fault.....i think we live in an era where the best F1 car wins no matter who's sitting on it. And races are so boring............you pass cars on the pits and not on the track...... this sucks.
IMO the Prost, Senna era was the last where a good pilot could make some difference.


Schumi won 7, Senna 3 titles.
Schumi has far more Grand Prix wins, far more pole positions.
Schumi won 2 with Benetton when he most definitely didn't have the best car. IMO, he didn't have the best car either when he won his first Ferrari title.
Enough said.

He is not "bitter", he is a colourless person. And the best F1 driver ever.

Fangio?
Clown era with clown cars ....


Condi

vkartikv
08-05-2006, 02:08 PM
Its just like the federer bashers who can't stand the fact that he is better than everyone else. Schumacher is # 1 and all the jealous ignorants have to live with that.

juani
08-05-2006, 02:28 PM
As you can see i'm not a schumy fan but i'm not against him. I'm against what F1 became. In the past great pilots can make a difference over cars and become champs (Fangio). In the 80's a great pilot could win couple of races and have some podiums with a crappy car (Senna). Nowadays, Senna, Schumy or any driver CAN'T WIN A RACE with a Toro Rosso car for example.


In 1994 Senna got all poles (till he died) but the car beaks in every race. So IMO benetton was better car cos it was more reliable than Williams. McLarens sucks a that time.

1996:
best car: Williams
best driver: Schumy
Champ: Damon Hill

1997:
best car: Williams
best driver: Schumy
Champ: Jacques Villeneuve

1998 and 1999:
Best car: McLaren
Best driver: Schumy
Champ: Hakkinen

2000-2004:
Best car: Ferrari
Best driver: Schumy
Champ: Schumy

2005:
Best car: Reanult
Best driver: Schumy
Champ: Alonso

Ferrari was always one of the strongest teams, maybe the strongest one. They are the team that for the last 15 years spend more money and resources. Got a great development in I+D. Schumy helps, but, for me, his help is minimal in relation of all the money and resources and I+D that Ferrari have.
Why don't to let schumy try to take Minardi to the 1st position of constructor champ with the same Minardi's budget.......that's impossible.

Why bernie Ecclestone is changing the rules every season......cos now is so boring...the best cars wins always.....is so predictable.

We should invent "pit stop races" cos nowadays the rest of the race is disposable.

IMO
before: drivers won races........cars were secondary.
nowadays: cars win races............drivers are secondary.


Schumy fans........did you read this post???????????????????????

What do you think about it???????????????????????????

LSee19
08-05-2006, 03:17 PM
It's hard to say who's the best all time, because of the changes in equipment and rules over the years. Schumacher is definitely the best of his era and Senna was the best in his (although there's a strong case for Alain Prost as well.) I like to look at who's the best in certain era's. Fangio did beat Ferrari for many years, but his equipment was not bad either, driving for teams like Masarati, Alfa Romeo and at the end of his career, Mercedes Benz. After Fangio, names like Brabham, Graham Hill, Jim Clark, Jackie Stewart, Lauda, Prost, Senna and now Schumacher as some of the best in the modern era. I think any of them match up well with each other in terms of tactical and driving skill and the will to win.

thejackal
08-05-2006, 05:11 PM
type in gilles villeneuve vs rene arnoux in google video. most amazing F1 duel EVER.

Caswell
08-05-2006, 06:22 PM
His father was world champion in 1978 I think but only competed in F1 for a short time. Is that why he left, because it was so cut throat?

My memory of his [Michael Andretti's] short tenure in F1 was of him being routinly punted off the track. Often at the start of the race.

khs_tennis
08-05-2006, 09:01 PM
im not an f1 follower, but didnt schumi stop on a curve (i dont recall the race)on the qualies last year to disturb other racers? i think he was penalised for that move.


Yes, that happened this year at Monaco when he heard over the radio that Alonso was beating his supposed pole-winning time with only about 30 or 40 seconds left in the 3rd round of qualifying. Schumi is a great driver but he does think he can do whatever he wants to "bend" the rules. At Hockenheim last week he parked his car crooked on the grid to begin the race to perhaps get a better start and then this week at Hungary he passed 3 cars under a red flag and received a 2 second penalty off this best qualifying lap.

Deuce
08-06-2006, 10:01 PM
And once again your hero Schumacher demonstrated his seemingly natural unsportsmanlike conduct in Hungary - first being penalized during qualification, then, during the race, shortcutting through a chicane in order to maintain his position over a very obviously faster competitor (De La Rossa), then chopping him off when he should have let him through. A couple of laps later, he screwed himself by trying to chop off yet another obviously faster competitor (Heidfeld), and damaging his own car in the process.

Technically, as a driver, Schumacher is very good. As a human being, he's a disgrace.
It's nice to see that he's no longer getting away with his garbage.

khs_tennis
08-07-2006, 07:39 AM
And once again your hero Schumacher demonstrated his seemingly natural unsportsmanlike conduct in Hungary - first being penalized during qualification, then, during the race, shortcutting through a chicane in order to maintain his position over a very obviously faster competitor (De La Rossa), then chopping him off when he should have let him through. A couple of laps later, he screwed himself by trying to chop off yet another obviously faster competitor (Heidfeld), and damaging his own car in the process.

Technically, as a driver, Schumacher is very good. As a human being, he's a disgrace.
It's nice to see that he's no longer getting away with his garbage.

I'm not sure if you were talking about me or not, or just the whole post in general but i am not a schumi fan at all. I more or less despise him and his antics anymore. He is not above the sport for which he obviously thinks that he is.

Deuce
08-07-2006, 09:09 PM
I'm not sure if you were talking about me or not, or just the whole post in general but i am not a schumi fan at all. I more or less despise him and his antics anymore. He is not above the sport for which he obviously thinks that he is.

No - I wasn't referring to you at all. My post was directed at the several people who have posted in this thread that Schumacher can do no wrong (and who are now conspicuous by their silence).
It is interesting how bias renders people totally blind to the obvious.

Caswell
08-08-2006, 06:05 AM
Well, if you're referring to me, I have to wonder how long and how often you actually watch F1. You're getting bent out of shape because the guy cut a chicane on a damp track? Schumacher, like any other driver, can do wrong. What's hilarious is how people will villify him for something common, like going for too much in a braking zone and cutting a chicane. I can't count the number of times I've seen it, and it's rarely penalized.

The only saving grace to F1 these days is the aggressive nature of every driver out there. It's been that way for close to a decade. If you want to watch racing full of "gentleman's agreements" where people concede the corner as soon as they see a competitor out of the corner of their eye, you're watching the wrong form of racing.

khs_tennis
08-08-2006, 07:47 AM
Well he cut the chicane not once but twice and took a spot from de la rosa and wasnt about to concede the position like the rules state. A lap or two later he missed the chicane again and then finally slowed to let de la rose through. Schumi thinks he's god among mortals and his antics need to stop.

Caswell
08-08-2006, 11:42 AM
Well he cut the chicane not once but twice and took a spot from de la rosa and wasnt about to concede the position like the rules state. A lap or two later he missed the chicane again and then finally slowed to let de la rose through. Schumi thinks he's god among mortals and his antics need to stop.

Good grief... concede the position? I suppose you're one of those guys that gets excited when the FIA gives someone a penalty for doing something on the reconnisance lap.

Passing in a chicane is extremely difficult. One second the person trying th pass has the inside line, the next they don't. It makes it an attractive place to defend - stick alongside the person who took the inside line into the chicane, and you've inside line coming out. There's no way to "concede" the position in a chicane short of slamming on the brakes and letting the person drive completely past you. Drivers that do that don't make it F1.

Do you honestly think Schumacher is the only driver to ever cut a chicane while trying to defend a position? Do you honestly think that Schumacher intentionally cut the chicane, and that it wasn't the far more common occurance of losing grip under extremely hard braking? The reason Schumacher finally let de La Rosa past was no doubt because he knew Briatore was taking up his usual spot whining in the FIA's ear about another driver.

Briatore would have been better served hiring pit crews that know how to properly drive a nut onto a hub.

khs_tennis
08-08-2006, 06:19 PM
Good grief... concede the position? I suppose you're one of those guys that gets excited when the FIA gives someone a penalty for doing something on the reconnisance lap.

Passing in a chicane is extremely difficult. One second the person trying th pass has the inside line, the next they don't. It makes it an attractive place to defend - stick alongside the person who took the inside line into the chicane, and you've inside line coming out. There's no way to "concede" the position in a chicane short of slamming on the brakes and letting the person drive completely past you. Drivers that do that don't make it F1.

Do you honestly think Schumacher is the only driver to ever cut a chicane while trying to defend a position? Do you honestly think that Schumacher intentionally cut the chicane, and that it wasn't the far more common occurance of losing grip under extremely hard braking? The reason Schumacher finally let de La Rosa past was no doubt because he knew Briatore was taking up his usual spot whining in the FIA's ear about another driver.

Briatore would have been better served hiring pit crews that know how to properly drive a nut onto a hub.

Did you even watch the race or the laps where Schumacher did this? For one, it wasnt a clean pass because thats what it sounds like you're saying. Chicanes are actually a good place to pass especially in F1, Michael passed illegaly butting cutting through the chicane and not then conceding the position by which he should, rules sanctioning or not. It was an unprofessional move. And the only reason he gave the position back was because he MISSED THE CHICANE AGAIN! Kubica did a better job driving through the chicane than Schumacher did for Christ's sake.

Caswell
08-08-2006, 07:44 PM
...Chicanes are actually a good place to pass especially in F1...

LMAO! Say no more!

khs_tennis
08-08-2006, 07:49 PM
I dont see them passing anywhere else! And as evidence shows, de la rosa was trying to pass schumacher at the chicane and thats where a lot of the overtaking was happening at Hungary. I'm glad you missed such a great race.

Deuce
08-08-2006, 08:50 PM
LMAO! Say no more!
Give it a rest, dude - your bias is showing loud and clear.

The fact, of course, is that Schumacher has a long history of doing very unsportsmanlike things on the track - going back over a decade to when he very deliberately took Damon Hill out of a race when Hill was the only one who could catch him for the championship. This poor sportsmanship has been repeated several times since then. To you, it must surely all be merely a 'coincidence', right?

Another fact is that not very many drivers respect Schumacher as a human being, which was plainly obvious in Monaco this year when many drivers called his deliberate stalling of his car both cheating and pathetic. The fact that the stall would have clinched the pole position for Schumacher if he wasn't penalized is just another coincidence, I suppose?

Saying that Schumacher is not a terrible sportsman and a cheat is the equivalent of saying that the sun is not hot. You can say it all you like, but to those who know the facts, you look mighty foolish.

RiosTheGenius
08-08-2006, 09:01 PM
I liked Senna's style, but they're probably up there with Schumacher as far as people's liking and recognition ... as for their skills behind the wheel.

Caswell
08-09-2006, 09:30 AM
Give it a rest, dude - your bias is showing loud and clear...

The bias is in people who crucify Schumacher for things every driver of the past two decades is guilty of.

Hard to pass because of blocking? From the interviews I've read, Webber takes the current title. As for the past, who was it who had the nickname "the Moving Chicane" - Rene Arnoux?

Knocking people off the track? Schumacher hardly has a lock on that one, even in the context of world championships. As I said before, the much-beloved Senna admitted that he took out Prost to lock up the 1991 championship.

No, the real problem for Schumacher is that a.) he's been successful for over a decade and b.) he hasn't been killed. I've never claimed the guy was the biggest sportsman out there, but it's hilarious to listen to those of you who act as if he accomplishments exist only because he was the only cutthroat driver to ever step into an F1 car.

Schumacher isn't even my favorite driver. Prost had that title, then Alesi (being in hairpin at Montreal when he won his only GP, stopped his car, got out and celebrated with us is my all time best F1 memory), then Barichello (met him when he drove for Jordan, total class act), and for the past few years Button. That said, I recognize Schumacher as the best the sport has ever seen.

TennisProPaul
08-09-2006, 09:42 AM
for me the GOAT racing driver was Fangio cos his driving skills were a least 10+ years in advance in relation to the other drivers (they learned a lot following him). He change the way of drive a racing car. He was the father of modern racing techniques. He beated powerfull ferraris with crappy cars and won 5 champ titles.
Schumy won 7 titles but only when he have the best car.......can he win a race with a crappy car????? No way.

Talking about the modern era of F1 it think Ayrton Senna da Silva was the best.
He was great. When he was young and still racing in Brazil he was invited to race in British F2. With a crappy car he made the pole and won the race. After that he start his way to the top.
In 1984 (his 1st season in F1) he was racing in Monaco on a rainny day (with a ****** car of course) and he kicked Prost *** (racing with McLaren) an finished 1st but the authorities finished the race 1 lap before Senna overtake Prost.
He was the best in rain. Once i think in 1992 started to rain in the middle of a rece and he didn't change tires, he raced with slick!!! you have to have big balls to do that.
Senna was so passionate and he transmitted that passion to the people. Someone remember his funeral. Was incredible, so many people. I think only popes had bigger funerals than Senna.
These are little things that make someone big IMO.
And of course he won 3 titles and had great battles against Prost and Mansell.

I think Schumy doesn't transmit pasion to his fans.....he looks like a bitter guy to me. He only won when he has the best car. Maybe is not schumy's fault.....i think we live in an era where the best F1 car wins no matter who's sitting on it. And races are so boring............you pass cars on the pits and not on the track...... this sucks.
IMO the Prost, Senna era was the last where a good pilot could make some difference.


all f1 is switching to nascar

Deuce
08-09-2006, 11:54 PM
It was no secret that Prost and Senna did not like each other. Sure, they were both arrogant - but that's pretty much where it bagan and ended with both of them. Schumacher, by comparison, has been involved in 'controversial incidents' with a bunch of different people over many years. He clearly views himself as being above all others and as being above the sport.

Caswell wrote:
"I recognize Schumacher as the best the sport has ever seen."
I agree totally - Schumacher is the best cheater and classless act that the sport has ever seen. In my book, one's principles and character count for more than one's physical talents.

Caswell
08-10-2006, 03:08 AM
So your choice for all time great is who? Gilles? I rate him highly, but only as a second-tier driver in a historical context. His death is largely responsible for his mythos. Had he lived out his career, he would have simply been another talented driver to make a long and successful career in F1. Someone in the mold of a Berger.

Of course, as someone who's been to about a dozen Canadian Grands Prix at the track that bears his name, I've seen first hand that the Canadians will buy anything with the Villeneuve name on it. Even if it's merchandise for his brat of a son.

armand
08-10-2006, 05:28 AM
Deuce: what do you think of that 'incident' at Barcelona a few years back: Michael was slow with car trouble(blistering tires maybe) and his brother Ralf was right behind trying to overtake and Ferrari teammate Barrichello right behind them.
Ralf tried to overtake Michael on the outside of a corner but Michael squeezed and delayed him so that Barrichello could pass the both of them on the inside.
I suppose it wasn't an easy thing to do: deciding who you're going to be loyal to at 300 km/h.
And a year later Michael regretted his maneuver, but I don't remember his reasoning.

Caswell
08-10-2006, 07:14 AM
IMO
before: drivers won races........cars were secondary.
nowadays: cars win races............drivers are secondary.

You're right on that account.

Chalk it up to the dependency on aerodynamic grip and carbon brakes. The aero makes it tough to maintain a close position behind a competitor, the carbon brakes shorten the braking zones, and thus minimize the chances to pass.

Until the rules changes address aero in a fundamental way and until the braking zones are increased, you're not going to see much passing. I was reading an interview in a recent F1 Racing magazine where an engineer mentioned that just about every team on the grid has recovered almost all of the downforce they lost in the last major round of aero rules changes (2004).

Deuce
08-11-2006, 09:55 PM
So your choice for all time great is who? Gilles? I rate him highly, but only as a second-tier driver in a historical context. His death is largely responsible for his mythos. Had he lived out his career, he would have simply been another talented driver to make a long and successful career in F1. Someone in the mold of a Berger.

Of course, as someone who's been to about a dozen Canadian Grands Prix at the track that bears his name, I've seen first hand that the Canadians will buy anything with the Villeneuve name on it. Even if it's merchandise for his brat of a son.
You certainly seem like a person with a great many biases both for and against certain people.

All I said is that Gilles Villeneuve should be on the list of 'greatest drivers in history'. I'm not going to pick one 'greatest driver' - simply because to do so is completely absurd. Picking the 'greatest tennis player of all time' is absurd enough - and tennis hasn't changed nearly as much as Formula One has in its history. With the evolution of cars and engines and tires and even driving styles over the years, even thinking that one can pick one 'best driver of all time' is absolutely ridiculous.