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netman
08-17-2006, 07:18 PM
I always note when an opponent shows up welding a PS 6.0 frame. I quickly do a calculation. The formula is fairly simple, with three typical outcomes.

One, you get an older player with a PS 6.0 who has been using it for years. They use it out of force of habit, but refuse to admit they don't have the fitness and skills to use it successfully any more. In this case you give them lots of low sliders, dippers and off speed shots. The resulting floaters are easy pickin's at the net.

Two, you get the newbies who read the BS posted here about using a PS 6.0 to improve their strokes (notice there is never any mention of hair shirts and self-flagellation). So they gamely stuggle with their overwieight, low powered bats, comforted by the fact they are following the pure path of tennis righteousness. Meanwhile beating them is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Finally, there are the former 5.0+ players who used the PS 6.0 in college. They may be a older now, but they are so talented they could beat you with a broom. After the 3rd kick serve that is 2 feet above your head before you can get a racquet on it and the umpteenth inside-out FH that is so far out of reach you couldn't hit it with the proverbial ten foot pole, you accept that they really should be using the PS 6.0 and you are gonna get killed.

In my humble observations, using a statistical distribution, Category 1 is 40%, Category 2 is 55% and Category 3 is 5%.

-k-

Offshore
08-17-2006, 07:41 PM
I wish it were that easy to figure out. I do not see many PS 6.0 frames out there at Open tourneys or at local clubs. When I do the players seem to be pretty good. Its pretty hard to make generalizations based on the frame someone is using IMO.

rooski
08-17-2006, 07:46 PM
LOL...sounds about right. However, it's been years since I've seen anyone using that frame and I live in a place with plenty of players from all 3 of your categories. I see an occasional low intermediate joker playing with a PC600 actually trying to "push" with it ...and I just laugh.

Oh...there is one more category...call it 1a) the older guy who still has decent skills and is just too cheap to buy a new frame even though he would be a lot better with a more modern racket. Ahem....that would be my dad.

chiru
08-17-2006, 08:23 PM
man why does everyone rip on ppl who aren't 5.0's using the ps 85. holy crap, you know its possible that some ppl play better with the ps 85 than another racket at many levels, obviously not like a 2.0, but i think its fair that a 4.0 player cud be maximizing himself wiht eh ps 85

BreakPoint
08-17-2006, 08:56 PM
All I know is, I don't know how many times I've gotten myself in trouble by judging a player by the racquet he uses before the match has even started. I've had my butt whipped by opponents wielding everything from 70 sq. in., 30 year-old racquets to 135 sq. in. fan-shaped monstrosities with all the latest technology. Good players will use everything under the sun just as bad players will also use everything under the sun. The bottom line is that you can't judge a tennis player by the racquet that he/she uses just as you can't judge a book by its cover. Someone very wise said that once.......I mean about tennis players, not books. ;) LOL

Ultra2HolyGrail
08-17-2006, 09:21 PM
Why are peaple so ENVIOUS of ps6.0 users.. Its always the guys using granny or girl sticks that talk trash.

Davai
08-17-2006, 09:22 PM
What about the people who use the 6.0 95?

drakulie
08-17-2006, 09:35 PM
Besides tennis, these are the advantages of using a PS 85;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/emperor.jpg

drakulie
08-17-2006, 09:35 PM
More advantages:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/8-17-2006-1.jpg

anirut
08-17-2006, 09:45 PM
Do all these advantages of the PS85 come as standard equipment with the racket if I get one?

Ultra2HolyGrail
08-17-2006, 09:48 PM
Do all these advantages of the PS85 come as standard equipment with the racket if I get one?

Only if you fall into category #3 :)

drakulie
08-17-2006, 09:56 PM
Only if you fall into category #3 :)

Well put. And if you fall into category 3, you get one of these:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/Boxster22.jpg

anirut
08-17-2006, 09:58 PM
Only if you fall into category #3 :)

Can I bargain? I promise I'll make it to Cat #3 in a heart beat if the standard add on comes with the racket ...

mistapooh
08-17-2006, 09:59 PM
I hate you guys. I miss my 85 now =(.

Ultra2HolyGrail
08-17-2006, 10:11 PM
Well put. And if you fall into category 3, you get one of these:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/Boxster22.jpg

Im definetly noticing a trend here. You wouldnt happen to be born in august now drakulie, that would blow my mind hehe.

drakulie
08-17-2006, 10:12 PM
I hate you guys. I miss my 85 now =(.

LMAO. Here are more adoring fans of the PS85:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/nicholemarci.jpg

drakulie
08-17-2006, 10:35 PM
Very true. You are wise beyond your years!!

Keifers
08-17-2006, 10:49 PM
Thanks for the laughs, guys. Too funny! :mrgreen:

If I didn't already have a 6.0 85, I'd be feeling so bad...

...but I do, so I don't. :cool:

Duzza
08-17-2006, 11:16 PM
Two, you get the newbies who read the BS posted here about using a PS 6.0 to improve their strokes (notice there is never any mention of hair shirts and self-flagellation). So they gamely stuggle with their overwieight, low powered bats, comforted by the fact they are following the pure path of tennis righteousness. Meanwhile beating them is like shooting fish in a barrel.


-k-
game on, i seriously doubt you would beat a lot of people like this.

DX_Psycho
08-17-2006, 11:38 PM
what abotu the 6.0 95?

and i bet i could beat you with an 85.

newnuse
08-17-2006, 11:54 PM
LOL :)

This thread is amusing.... nice Pic's Drakulie

I must go out and pick up a few more PS85 now

Why do all these racket nutzis always smack people who dare use the 85"?? Why all the hate?

People will use whatever they enjoy using... that's part of the fun in playing tennis. If they like playing with 50" wooden rackets.. so be it.

I don't see why guys on here insist on telling them they are so wrong, so stupid etc for using it....

VAmazona
08-18-2006, 12:53 AM
String is too expensive...I need the smallest racquet possible to get the most out of my reels. The rest of the time I just twirl it in my hand while I watch others play.

artworks
08-18-2006, 05:16 AM
I always note when an opponent shows up welding a PS 6.0 frame. I quickly do a calculation. The formula is fairly simple, with three typical outcomes.

One, you get an older player with a PS 6.0 who has been using it for years. They use it out of force of habit, but refuse to admit they don't have the fitness and skills to use it successfully any more. In this case you give them lots of low sliders, dippers and off speed shots. The resulting floaters are easy pickin's at the net.

Two, you get the newbies who read the BS posted here about using a PS 6.0 to improve their strokes (notice there is never any mention of hair shirts and self-flagellation). So they gamely stuggle with their overwieight, low powered bats, comforted by the fact they are following the pure path of tennis righteousness. Meanwhile beating them is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Finally, there are the former 5.0+ players who used the PS 6.0 in college. They may be a older now, but they are so talented they could beat you with a broom. After the 3rd kick serve that is 2 feet above your head before you can get a racquet on it and the umpteenth inside-out FH that is so far out of reach you couldn't hit it with the proverbial ten foot pole, you accept that they really should be using the PS 6.0 and you are gonna get killed.

In my humble observations, using a statistical distribution, Category 1 is 40%, Category 2 is 55% and Category 3 is 5%.

-k-

Hey Mr. Humble, I'll beat you with my PS 85 anytime even at your own backyard. :mad:

PrestigeClassic
08-18-2006, 06:02 AM
Well done, drakulie!

drakulie
08-18-2006, 06:10 AM
Well done, drakulie!

To all my fellow fans of the PS 85 inclduing but not limited to PrestigeClassic, artworks, VAmazona, newnuse, Keifers, Ultra2HolyGrail, Chiru, BreakPoint, Davai, anirut, mistapooh, etc.

I want to thank you and dedicate this Post to all of you...

I hope I did not leave anyone out.

baseliner
08-18-2006, 06:14 AM
Hit just once with the 6.0 85 and you will see why category #1 is so large.

juani
08-18-2006, 06:38 AM
Besides tennis, these are the advantages of using a PS 85;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/emperor.jpg


These are the advantages of...................your wallet. LOL:D JUst joking

drakulie
08-18-2006, 07:22 AM
As Yoda would say, " Judge me by size you do? Too small for you I am? Cut your feet off I will…..with my PS 85 I will. Against your defenses hit volleys, and killer angles I will”.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/yodalone02.jpg

drakulie
08-18-2006, 07:43 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/8-17-2006-22.jpg

Keifers
08-18-2006, 07:46 AM
^^ Yoda ^^ That's just too good, drakulie! VERY well done!

I really did laugh out loud. :D :D :D

Offshore
08-18-2006, 08:52 AM
While I do not use a 6.0 85, I must say that I am LMAO with those pictures drakulie...funny stuff!

textbook strokes
08-18-2006, 08:59 AM
On the main subject: (95%) Force them to rally on for more than 3 shots. They will frame tha ball very often.
Play with power and spin, you will overpower them.
If they come to the net, you can pass them easily.
On the other 5%, congatulate them, and advise them to buy modern frames, so they could be even better.

vkartikv
08-18-2006, 09:17 AM
On the main subject: (95%) Force them to rally on for more than 3 shots. They will frame tha ball very often.
Play with power and spin, you will overpower them.
If they come to the net, you can pass them easily.
On the other 5%, congatulate them, and advise them to buy modern frames, so they could be even better.

Why is there so much emphasis on what the opponent is using? I keep coming back to the PS 85 and now I am sticking with it, no more relationships with other frames. To say that 95% of prostaff mid users are not worthy of it is a gross overestimation. People should appreciate the fact that the prostaff mid user atleast knows enough about its history to try to own it.

Richie Rich
08-18-2006, 09:25 AM
Why is there so much emphasis on what the opponent is using? I keep coming back to the PS 85 and now I am sticking with it, no more relationships with other frames. To say that 95% of prostaff mid users are not worthy of it is a gross overestimation. People should appreciate the fact that the prostaff mid user atleast knows enough about its history to try to own it.
i own one (nice to look at and know that 20+yrs ago it was a "top of the line" frame) but can only dribble the ball over the net with it. have no problems with the tour 90 or ncode 90. only the ps 85 and the PC 600. can't play worth crap with those 2 frames.

vkartikv
08-18-2006, 09:28 AM
i own one (nice to look at and know that 20+yrs ago it was a "top of the line" frame) but can only dribble the ball over the net with it. have no problems with the tour 90 or ncode 90. only the ps 85 and the PC 600. can't play worth crap with those 2 frames.

I totally agree about the pc600. Any prestige midsize frame is a nightmare to handle, especially after having gotten used to a wilson-type grip shape. I have to disagree with you on the ncode 90 being easier than the PS 85. I don't know about you but I feel the weight distribution or material makeup is such that the ncode 90 feels heavier to swing. I'd like to hear your thoughts..

ironchef21
08-18-2006, 09:47 AM
All I know is that whenever I play someone who uses the PS they always seem to be in the 5%. :(

BreakPoint
08-18-2006, 09:52 AM
All I know is that whenever I play someone who uses the PS they always seem to be in the 5%. :(

That's largely been my experience as well. I'd say 95% of the people I've played against or seen play with the PS 6.0 85 are very good players that can probably beat most of the guys on this board. :eek:

mucat
08-18-2006, 09:56 AM
Well put. And if you fall into category 3, you get one of these:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/Boxster22.jpg

Does the car come with the guy?

MTXR
08-18-2006, 02:13 PM
more pictures of hot ladies please.

drakulie
08-18-2006, 02:47 PM
I have to disagree with you on the ncode 90 being easier than the PS 85. I don't know about you but I feel the weight distribution or material makeup is such that the ncode 90 feels heavier to swing. I'd like to hear your thoughts..

I felt the same thing when I hit with the ncode 90, and I add lead tape to my PS 85 (3 and 9). Still, the ncode felt much heavier to swing.

drakulie
08-18-2006, 02:50 PM
Does the car come with the guy?

Yes. Once you hit the "5%", you could have your own.

TennsDog
08-18-2006, 04:05 PM
In my humble observations, using a statistical distribution, Category 1 is 40%, Category 2 is 55% and Category 3 is 5%.

-k-
You forgot the 4th category: the still-in-college players using it and using it effectively.

NoBadMojo
08-18-2006, 08:47 PM
I always note when an opponent shows up welding a PS 6.0 frame. I quickly do a calculation. The formula is fairly simple, with three typical outcomes.

One, you get an older player with a PS 6.0 who has been using it for years. They use it out of force of habit, but refuse to admit they don't have the fitness and skills to use it successfully any more. In this case you give them lots of low sliders, dippers and off speed shots. The resulting floaters are easy pickin's at the net.

Two, you get the newbies who read the BS posted here about using a PS 6.0 to improve their strokes (notice there is never any mention of hair shirts and self-flagellation). So they gamely stuggle with their overwieight, low powered bats, comforted by the fact they are following the pure path of tennis righteousness. Meanwhile beating them is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Finally, there are the former 5.0+ players who used the PS 6.0 in college. They may be a older now, but they are so talented they could beat you with a broom. After the 3rd kick serve that is 2 feet above your head before you can get a racquet on it and the umpteenth inside-out FH that is so far out of reach you couldn't hit it with the proverbial ten foot pole, you accept that they really should be using the PS 6.0 and you are gonna get killed.

In my humble observations, using a statistical distribution, Category 1 is 40%, Category 2 is 55% and Category 3 is 5%.

-k-

I think you nailed this totally and I bet the percentages are pretty right as well....it's evidenced on this very board where i dont think there are any members using the ps85 who are even 5.0 let alone above. This frame used to be a 4.5 and above frame way back when, then it became a 5.0 frame as the game evolved nd now i would say it is a 6.0 and up frame..it's just not a factor or even discussed anywhere else but here other than for nostalgic reasons.

TennsDog
08-18-2006, 09:08 PM
Neglecting the obvious 5 inches, can someone please explain the huge difference between the PS 85 and the PS Tour 90, which no one complains about is over-rated and shouldn't be played with in today's game? According to the reasons people give for the PS 85 being out-dated, you should pretty much get rid of any racket of head size below 93-95, because anything smaller sucks from the baseline and is only good for serve and volley, which doesn't exist anymore. Wow, I wonder how many more fallacies I could fit into a single sentence...

Regulator
08-18-2006, 10:25 PM
I really don't think anyone should be applying a game strategy based on what frame someone is using. I think it would be better to observer their style and form.

ThePlungerMan
08-18-2006, 10:39 PM
deleted,,,,,,,

Regulator
08-18-2006, 11:10 PM
Furthermore, using this strategy, I guess everyone who uses a FXP Radical must think think they are Andre, a N6.1 Tour 90 Roger, a Babolat Roddick and let's not forget a PS 85 Pistol Pete. Either that or they suck right??? Oh wait I forgot some those aren't the real rackets the pros are using, they are PJ's. I say people should use what they like, can afford and are comfortable with or want to play or learn with. Anyhow I have seen guys walk onto a court with a 6 pack of the latest expensive gizmo racket and blow goats on the court. Sometimes they are very good, sometimes they sucked. But I never judged them on what racket they were swinging I watched how they hit.

PrestigeClassic
08-19-2006, 03:00 AM
Being able to swing a Boxster S isnít that big a deal, even if you buy it new like I did, a few years back. I since sold it, my dog didnít like the bolster seats. Now a 911 new, that isnít so easy.

Also having your picture taken with pretty girls isnít a big deal either. Any geek can swing that.

A new 911? Yeah, it might not be too easy to swing...for you.

Richie Rich
08-19-2006, 03:52 AM
I totally agree about the pc600. Any prestige midsize frame is a nightmare to handle, especially after having gotten used to a wilson-type grip shape. I have to disagree with you on the ncode 90 being easier than the PS 85. I don't know about you but I feel the weight distribution or material makeup is such that the ncode 90 feels heavier to swing. I'd like to hear your thoughts..
i just found that i could play better, especially serves and groundstrokes, with the tour 90 vs the 6.0 85. not sure what the exact reason was. just able to do the things i normally do on the court better with the tour 90 for some reason.

to the OP - i think there is some bit of truth in that the 6.0 85 is a hard frame to master. however, you play with what you like best and what feels good for *you*. i gave up judging players by racquets a long time ago when a 60 yr old guy beat me with an old price aluminum oversize frame

netman
08-19-2006, 06:06 AM
Wow. Had no idea this thread would grow so large. And take some interesting side trips. :) Some random comments

I was just posting my observations from down in the everyman leagues. I don't get to the sample the rarified air of the top level players, so I was simply laying out what I run into when I play someone wielding a PS 6.0. I assumed others would have a distribution curve different than mine and was curious to hear about it. A good point was made earllier that you hardly see PS 6.0 wielders anymore and I have to to agree with that one. Over the last 18 months I've seen most of the guys I know that had used it move on to newer midplus frames. I hate it because most of them got better in the process. :(

Can someone please tell me why PS 6.0 users react so violently to anyone's comment that maybe its not the right choice for 95% of the playing public? And why personal attacks are launched against posters who agree with this statement?

And I why do folks here continue to advise 3.0 players to go and get a PS 6.0 to improve their strokes? If you follow that logic, then what they should really be doing is finding an old Jack Kramer or Maxply wood racquet. That will really force them to hone their strokes. Of course most of them will quit the game in frustration Tennis is about consistency. Telling folks in the 95% category to get a racquet that requires superior hand-eye coordination and hours and hours of practice to master and maintain said stroke mechanics just seems like bad advice.

I'll stop now.

-k-

NoBadMojo
08-19-2006, 06:28 AM
I really don't think anyone should be applying a game strategy based on what frame someone is using. I think it would be better to observer their style and form.

actually you can apply a strategy for a on obsolete racquet user if you are able to adapt your play to that situation. i am not braggng like others around here, but i play a 5.0 who uses a ncode 90..when he switched from a more appropriate frame i discovered that all i need to do to win a point is hit somethin high bounding to his one hander....that would immediately produce aUE from him...come to think of it, maybe this guy used to be a 5.0 and when he switched t a too demandn frame is now a 4.5. he also makes my serve look really good tryin to return it with that small headed frame

drakulie
08-19-2006, 07:21 AM
so i would like to excuse myself from this thread, and you all continue to hack away and attack as you like....bye now..have a nice day

Thanks. Class is over and you are now excused. Good luck with your volkswagen dnx9.

drakulie
08-19-2006, 07:42 AM
I was just posting my observations from down in the everyman leagues.

Can someone please tell me why PS 6.0 users react so violently to anyone's comment that maybe its not the right choice for 95% of the playing public?

And I why do folks here continue to advise 3.0 players to go and get a PS 6.0 to improve their strokes?

Netman, the issue I have with your observation is a simple one.......as I stated in my first post in this thread your percentages apply to ALL racquets-not just the PS85. For example:

90% of the people I see playing with Babolat Pure Drives suck,
5% are in the intermediate,
and 5% are amazing.

Yet this PD is constantly being "praised" and pushed down peoples throats to help them improve their game. When these posters go out and buy a PD and still suck, they are told to go to a lighter racquet, or change their strings, or whatever.

People are constantly trying to make excuses of why they suck, and the others trying to "help" them for whatever reason don't have the BALLS to tell them the obvious-----ITS NOT THE RACQUET- ITS YOU. GO OUT, PRACTICE MORE, TAKE LESSONS AND IMPROVE....PERIOD!

If someone wants to wield a PS 85, who the hell is anyone else to tell them their business. And believe me, I have seen people who play with a PS85 who are horrible. Guess what, puttting a 9 oz frame in thier hands is not going to make them better. They are still going to suck. Case in point, there are lots of players who have 6 or 7 racquets in their bag. During a match they are constantly switching. Guess what? That's Right!!!! They still suck...

Whatever racquet someone chooses to play with is their business. They bought it with their money.

Sorry about the bluntness, but I am not going to be politically correct anymore. They SUCK. It's not the racquets fault, it is the players technique and mechanics.

Stop blaming the racquet. Stop saying, "I am better than this pusher, but he always beats me...blah, blah, blah"..

Guess what if a "pusher" beat you, he is better than you. Regardless of the racquet he used.

Kaptain Karl
08-19-2006, 07:51 AM
I'd say 95% of the people I've played against or seen play with the PS 6.0 85 are very good players that can probably beat most of the guys on this board.Interesting....
____________

Our small town Ladder is very active ... and top-heavy with talent. One of our better players came back to the game after taking 12 years off. Within two hitting sessions (I'd have said he was a 4.5) he was convinced his PS wasn't cutting it. He bought a n6.1 95 ... changed his preconceptions about string tension (He backed it down to 55 lbs.) and is now playing solid 5.0 tennis. (This delights me. He's one of my regular training partners. I would not have asked him if he'd stayed at the 4.5 level.)

Another player, about 62 in age, is slipping farther down the ladder. He's a 4.0 who has even lost a few matches to two of the better 3.5s. He complains that it's "age". Several of us (Five of us are either current, or former teaching pros.) have suggested he might try demo-ing some more appropriate frames than his PS 85. It is simply hampering him; we can see it; he cannot. He stubbornly insists on using the PS 85. "Oh well...."

One thing I do "predict".... If I walk onto a court to play against a college-to-late-20's player ... I expect him to be serving *bombs* and coming to the net like it's magnetized. (And I'm usually correct.) That makes for a fun match!

Lastly, I have several buddies who -- though no longer playing with it -- keep their last remaining PS 85 in their bag. Nostalgic, I guess....

- KK

BreakPoint
08-19-2006, 10:11 AM
If you follow that logic, then what they should really be doing is finding an old Jack Kramer or Maxply wood racquet.
Because they stopped making those 25 years ago and some people don't like using used racquets. ;)

Telling folks in the 95% category to get a racquet that requires superior hand-eye coordination and hours and hours of practice to master and maintain said stroke mechanics just seems like bad advice.

Because that's how you develop your strokes. People that have the most beautiful and fluid strokes probably learned how to play with wood racquets. If you play with super-powerful granny sticks, you will likely never fully develop your strokes as it's just too easy to get lazy and just block everything back with almost no strokes nor footwork whatsoever. In fact, you learn not to take full strokes because when you do, you usually hit the back fence.

So it comes down to, do you want to learn proper strokes for long-term success in the game or do you prefer instant gratification and just want to be able to get the ball back over the net? I guess in this, "I want it now", fast food, remote control, lazy-***, automatic everything society we live in, most people would choose the latter. And look at how obese Americans are. Is making things easier really the best thing? I say you have to make it harder in order to develop the pinpoint eye-hand coordination, the fast and proper footwork, and the long, fluid strokes necessary to become a much better player in the long run. If less effort is what one is looking for, there are many other activities one can choose that are easier to kill one's time. How about just playing a tennis video game on your Xbox? You won't even need to waste time taking a shower afterwards. ;) LOL

BreakPoint
08-19-2006, 10:24 AM
actually you can apply a strategy for a on obsolete racquet user if you are able to adapt your play to that situation. i am not braggng like others around here, but i play a 5.0 who uses a ncode 90..when he switched from a more appropriate frame i discovered that all i need to do to win a point is hit somethin high bounding to his one hander....that would immediately produce aUE from him...come to think of it, maybe this guy used to be a 5.0 and when he switched t a too demandn frame is now a 4.5. he also makes my serve look really good tryin to return it with that small headed frame

I'd say if that's the case then he was never a true 5.0 to begin with. It sounds like you're saying it was only his racquet that made him a 5.0. One's rating is not supposed to depend on one's racquet. After all, the NTRP system rates players, and not racquets, right?

I mean, if a 4.5 can become a 5.0 just by changing racquets, couldn't a 5.0 become a 5.5 by just changing racquets, and a 5.5 become a 6.0, etc., etc. So where would that leave the 4.5 who's now a 5.0? Pretty much where he started, wouldn't it? Still losing to his old 5.0 friends who are now 5.5's because they all changed racquets. So where would it end?

BreakPoint
08-19-2006, 10:34 AM
Our small town Ladder is very active ... and top-heavy with talent. One of our better players came back to the game after taking 12 years off. Within two hitting sessions (I'd have said he was a 4.5) he was convinced his PS wasn't cutting it. He bought a n6.1 95 ... changed his preconceptions about string tension (He backed it down to 55 lbs.) and is now playing solid 5.0 tennis. (This delights me. He's one of my regular training partners. I would not have asked him if he'd stayed at the 4.5 level.)


That's a good example. This guy has taken 12 years off so he's obviously not as good with his PS 6.0 85 as he once was. I've met guys that have continued using the PS 6.0 85 over the years and have never strayed from it so are still very good with it. You can tell these guys have used their PS 6.0 85 for a long, long time by the incredibly beat-up condition all their frames are in. I'm amazed that the racquets have stayed in one piece because they look like crap. I agree that the PS 6.0 85 is a relatively demanding frame so one needs to play with it all the time to continue to be good with it. It's probably not a good choice for someone who only plays once every couple of months or someone who takes 12 years off.

textbook strokes
08-19-2006, 10:37 AM
I honestly think that using heavy and demanding raquects doesn't help in developing good strokes. In fact, the weight forces the non advanced players to use improper tricks to compensate their inhability to accelerate the frame during the swing path.
The correct technique should be learned gradually, with the assistance of a qualyfied pro, and with a frame that allows begginers or intermediates to swing them without "arming" the stroke.
About, modern game; It will be too long and polemic trying to define it here, but one thing we could agree is that defense is getting better at eny level, along with consistency and power.
To play defense with a heavy and small haeaded frame like the ps 85 us not for everyone. Modern midpluses just do that better.

PrestigeClassic
08-19-2006, 11:17 AM
I honestly think that using heavy and demanding raquects doesn't help in developing good strokes. In fact, the weight forces the non advanced players to use improper tricks to compensate their inhability to accelerate the frame during the swing path.
The correct technique should be learned gradually, with the assistance of a qualyfied pro, and with a frame that allows begginers or intermediates to swing them without "arming" the stroke.
About, modern game; It will be too long and polemic trying to define it here, but one thing we could agree is that defense is getting better at eny level, along with consistency and power.
To play defense with a heavy and small haeaded frame like the ps 85 us not for everyone. Modern midpluses just do that better.

What kind of improper tricks are made in order to play with a demanding frame? Snapping wrist? Arming the ball? I don't know, if a player is arming the ball with a heavy frame, is the biggest problem really with the frame? Is a more powerful frame really going to help? Arming the ball, to me, sounds like there is further improper techinique.

On the flip side, someone that is just starting out and is using a Pure Drive is allowed to use improper tricks. There is a happy medium somewhere.

I agree more with the second half of your post. As a player gradually learns proper techinique, the player sometimes chooses a more demanding (and rewarding) frame along the way. An easier frame in the beginning can really help with the learning curve and often helps get the player to that point.

maverick1
08-19-2006, 11:53 AM
Touche.


I test drove one of those. Unbelievable. I told the salesmen, it's stupid fast.
I have 2 irons in the fire and if one of them pans out, I'm getting a 911 cab

If you are getting a convertible, you probably are not a PS85 user :-)
Actually I think the same of the Turbo.
Automatic stability control, 4 wheel drives, fake power boost at high RPMs are granny features :-)

Couldn't quite swing GT2, and GT3 wasn't available. They are more worthy of the PS85. No gimmics, pure car.

jace112
08-19-2006, 01:48 PM
To play defense with a heavy and small headed frame like the ps 85 us not for everyone. Modern midpluses just do that better.
I have to agree to this comment. I'm really struggling when pushed to the limits beyond the baseline. But I'm having fun anyway findind the tiny sweetspot. And if you get the timing wright, I usually hit a winner.

For me, it's always a pleasure to play with my PS85. Some kind of magic in it. But I'm quite sure that I play better with another stick. Especially during a match.

PS 85 = 90% pleasure and 10% overall efficiency. But today, I guess that I won't become the new Pistol Pete. So I'm more interested in having fun than winning Wimbledon

Saito
08-19-2006, 01:56 PM
I always note when an opponent shows up welding a PS 6.0 frame. I quickly do a calculation. The formula is fairly simple, with three typical outcomes.

One, you get an older player with a PS 6.0 who has been using it for years. They use it out of force of habit, but refuse to admit they don't have the fitness and skills to use it successfully any more. In this case you give them lots of low sliders, dippers and off speed shots. The resulting floaters are easy pickin's at the net.

Two, you get the newbies who read the BS posted here about using a PS 6.0 to improve their strokes (notice there is never any mention of hair shirts and self-flagellation). So they gamely stuggle with their overwieight, low powered bats, comforted by the fact they are following the pure path of tennis righteousness. Meanwhile beating them is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Finally, there are the former 5.0+ players who used the PS 6.0 in college. They may be a older now, but they are so talented they could beat you with a broom. After the 3rd kick serve that is 2 feet above your head before you can get a racquet on it and the umpteenth inside-out FH that is so far out of reach you couldn't hit it with the proverbial ten foot pole, you accept that they really should be using the PS 6.0 and you are gonna get killed.

In my humble observations, using a statistical distribution, Category 1 is 40%, Category 2 is 55% and Category 3 is 5%.

-k-

:lol: Your post hillarious!!! Your observation, correct IMO, with only a problem with the percentages (well, perhaps because of where I am from as opposed to where you are from.....). In my neck of the woods, Cat.1 would be 15%, Cat.2 would be 40%, and Cat.3 would be 45%.

That said, hope to see you someday on court. You can do your calculations on me ;) , before or after my kicker that is.

Saito
08-19-2006, 02:03 PM
As Yoda would say, " Judge me by size you do? Too small for you I am? Cut your feet off I willÖ..with my PS 85 I will. Against your defenses hit volleys, and killer angles I willĒ.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/yodalone02.jpg

I love this picture!!!! LMAO!!!

Kaptain Karl
08-19-2006, 03:27 PM
I'd say if that's the case then he was never a true 5.0 to begin with. It sounds like you're saying it was only his racquet that made him a 5.0.You attempt to ridicule what is patently obvious: Certain players just play better with certain rackets.

The point of the OP is fairly accurate in my experience. There are plenty of people who stubbornly play with "x" stick ... because of its mystique ... because "Y Pro" (supposedly) uses it ... because their best friend and doubles partner advised them to (regardless of the fact that the friend knows nothing about matching a stick to a particular players' ability).

If you haven't noticed, even Pete isn't playing with that stick.
_____________

As usual, BP misses my point with the following....
That's a good example. This guy has taken 12 years off so he's obviously not as good with his PS 6.0 85 as he once was.Except he's not as good, period, as he remembers being. You over-simplify....

I've met guys that have continued using the PS 6.0 85 over the years and have never strayed from it so are still very good with it.I love meeting most of these guys in the draw. Because most of them are self-deluded.

I agree that the PS 6.0 85 is a relatively demanding frame ... And so continues the mythology. I don't believe it's a "demanding" frame so much as it is a "particular" frame. It works well for people with games uniquely suited for it. (Big serves and big flat-ish ground strokes; aggressive about getting to the net.)

What makes me laugh is the number of players who like to "think" their game is suited for the PS 85 (and they're wrong). And the numbers of ... lemmings ... out there who (for whatever reason) are following some "crowd" ... and limiting their own growth as players.

P.S. If you haven't noticed, even Pete isn't playing with that stick.

- KK

Richie Rich
08-19-2006, 03:37 PM
yup KK, the % rule by the OP pretty much applies to any racquet, not just the 6.0 85. i've seen crap players play with everything under the sun. same for excellent players. the top 2 players at my club, who both play open level tournaments (5.5 and above), play with very differnet sticks - one plays with ncode 90 the other with a head LM 4. i can beat neither one consistently.

maverick1
08-19-2006, 04:08 PM
Kaptain Karl:
I play with a PS85, and my experience doesn't really agree with what you say.
I took up Tennis seriously only last June, at 42.
At that point, I had a dink for serve, no clue about proper technique for any shot, a Head Ti.S6 I had bought in a store for no special reason. I was a fan of Sampras, but I didn't what racket he used. In fact I didn't know what racket I used, without reading the labels.
I am reasonably fast on the court and have played other racket sports, so I was able to play at 2.75ish level. I signed up for the club "4.0" (inflated by 1.0) ladder in the fall.

Being a geek, I started to read a lot of stuff, and just had to get the PS85 because it was Pete's racket and because it had a cult following. I guess that firmly puts me in category 2.

Switching from the granny stick to PS85 made no difference to my results. I lost only one match out of 7, to a guy who wins most of his USTA 3.5 matches.

I kept using the PS85, and kept improving. This summer, I moved up and played "4.5" and made the finals(out of 54 players), losing to a guy who had played singles on a HS state champion team and signed up at this level thinking it was equivalent to USTA 4.5.

Now I have signed up for "5.0" Fall, and I already know I can beat some of the guys there.

I guess the point is I have been able to continuosly improve with the PS85.

In between, I took the suggestion of a friend who thinks like you, and played with a couple of 95 inch nCode rackets he lent me for a whole month. The racket of course felt different, but I didn't perceive any difference in how I played. But I did lose a set to someone I hit with for the first time. After the month, I couldn't tell if I was playing any differently and the "category 2" in me missed the mystique of the PS85. So I tried the PS85 aganst the same guy who had beaten in our first hit. I won 6-2 6-3, and I decided to continue with PS85. I have played this guy twice more and won every set.

I think I have honestly tried to find a reason not to use PS85, but there is none.

newnuse
08-19-2006, 04:25 PM
Good post Maverick,

Your results is proof some people just play better with a smaller head, heavier racket... be it the PS85" or another racket. I don't know why people can't understand that and continue to mock those who use the 85".

Is this racket for everybody??? of course not.... nobody ever said it was.... but some us love the racket and play well with it.

BreakPoint
08-19-2006, 04:38 PM
Certain players just play better with certain rackets.
I agree. If someone can't play with certain racquets then it's the fault of the player, isn't it, and not the fault of the racquet, right? NBMJ made it sound like that it was purely the fault of the smaller headsize racquet, and not the player, that caused this 5.0 to drop down to a 4.5. What he fails to acknowledge is that that same small headsize racquet may cause a different player to go from being a 4.5 to a 5.0. In his opinion, a small headed racquet can only make all players play worse, and never better. Do you also agree with that opinion? If so, then you just contradicted that statement you wrote above.

BTW, I don't see asterisks next to players ratings, such as "John Doe 5.0 *"
"* - but only when using a Pure Drive, otherwise 4.5"

If you haven't noticed, even Pete isn't playing with that stick.
That's because Pete's not trying to win Grand Slams anymore. If you haven't noticed, he's won enough of them and more than any other male pro and all with his PS 6.0 85.


As usual, BP misses my point with the following....
Except he's not as good, period, as he remembers being.
Are you saying most people who don't play at all for 12 years (and whose bodies are now 12 years older) should be as good as they were before they stopped playing? What fantasy world is that in?

I love meeting most of these guys in the draw. Because most of them are self-deluded.
Well they must be deluding their opponents even more then, as these are the same guys that win the club open tournaments every year.

It works well for people with games uniquely suited for it. (Big serves and big flat-ish ground strokes; aggressive about getting to the net.)
Yes, and there are a lot of these types of players still out there.

What makes me laugh is the number of players who like to "think" their game is suited for the PS 85 (and they're wrong).
How do you know? Have you met and played with all the people all over the world that use the PS 6.0 85?

P.S. If you haven't noticed, even Pete isn't playing with that stick.

Yes, you've said that already.

Kaptain Karl
08-19-2006, 04:59 PM
maverick1 - I *was* generalizing. Your own experience could be an exception to my "rule".

Also, I couldn't tell by your post. Does "Big serves and big flat-ish ground strokes; aggressive about getting to the net" describe -- or not describe -- your game? (If not, thanks for throwing me a mean Curve Ball.)

Here's what I'd expect from the "typical" user of...
PS 85 - Big serves and big flat-ish ground strokes; aggressive about getting to the net.
n6.1 90 (or 95)Accurate server, big hitter off both wings, decent net player. (But this category is *so* totally messed-up. There are two many "Roger worshippers" playing with this stick ... who haven't the game for it.)
fxp Radical - Aggressive baseliner, seldom S&V's.
M-fil 200 - Big server, with lots of variety, blasts his ground strokes, ventures to net only about one-out-of-five-or-six-points.

There are others, but you get the idea. And every one of these expectations is a generalization. Someone will always break the mold....

- KK

Janne
08-19-2006, 05:07 PM
Kaptain Karl what do you mean by "big flat-ish groundstrokes"? Do you mean fast or what?

maverick1
08-19-2006, 05:16 PM
KK,

The only part of the "PS85 user profile " that really applies to me is flat strokes. I hit with some topspin, but not much.
I successfully mix net play with baseline. My serve got fast only this week after I discovered "loose wrist"(already starting too get compliments). I tend to work on every area of my game.
What other people compliment me most about are my consistency, my backhand(2h), and my court coverage.

Of course everything above is relative to my playing level, which I rate 3.75 and I believe I am not inflating it as this forum usually assumes.

Kaptain Karl
08-19-2006, 09:58 PM
I agree. If someone can't play with certain racquets then it's the fault of the player, isn't it, and not the fault of the racquet, right?NWIP
It "just is." It's not always the fault of anyone or anything. (I've never been able to play well with *any* Prince stick. I know people who say the same about Yonex frames. It's just the way some people are....)

NBMJ made it sound like ...Knowing how often you totally miss *my* points, I'm not going to trust that you have understood NBMJ's POV at all. (You love to rephrase peoples' posts into stuff they wouldn't recognize....)

That's because Pete's not trying to win Grand Slams anymore. If you haven't noticed, he's won enough of them and more than any other male pro and all with his PS 6.0 85.Oh. So now you claim to know that Pete Sampras, one of the most competitive people on the planet, suddenly doesn't care about winning ... even on the WTT? (Right!)

Pete's playing with what works best for him.

Are you saying most people who don't play at all for 12 years (and whose bodies are now 12 years older) should be as good as they were before they stopped playing?NWIP

Well they must be deluding their opponents even more then, as these are the same guys that win the club open tournaments every year.I don't believe a single tournament champ in all of Colorado plays with the PS 85 ... and I follow Colorado tennis pretty closely. *And* our thinner air makes for a much higher percentage of "old school" S&V players ... a style which lends itself nicely to the playing characteristics of the PS. (You live in a ... world ... all of your own design, I think.)

Yes, and there are a lot of these types of players still out there.I guess this depends on what you mean by "a lot."

How do you know?Because I pay attention. I am known for my ability to "game plan" players ... even for other players; not just myself. (Meaning, some people will advise "Joe" how to beat "Sam" when what they're really telling Joe is how they would beat Sam. They cannot take into consideration the fact that their game is different from Joe's.)

Have you met and played with all the people all over the world that use the PS 6.0 85?NWIP

Yes, you've said that already.Yeah, I did. But for someone like you, who constantly twist's other peoples' posts into things they didn't write, I thought you'd need a refresher.

- KK

BreakPoint
08-19-2006, 11:41 PM
It "just is." It's not always the fault of anyone or anything. (I've never been able to play well with *any* Prince stick. I know people who say the same about Yonex frames. It's just the way some people are....)
But just because you can't play with a Prince racquet doesn't mean it's the racquet's fault, does it? Many other people can play great with Prince racquets. Thus, there's something about you that makes you play poorly with a Prince racquet, so it's not the racquet itself, it's YOU.

Knowing how often you totally miss *my* points, I'm not going to trust that you have understood NBMJ's POV at all. (You love to rephrase peoples' posts into stuff they wouldn't recognize....)
Why trust me? Why not trust your own eyes? Have you not read NBMJ's never-ending repetitive drivel here over the years? That using a small-headed racquet is detrimental to one's game and that using a smaller headed racquet can only make one's game worse but that using a larger headed racquet can only make one's game better? If that's not what he meant then please tell me what he's been saying over and over ad naseum.

Oh. So now you claim to know that Pete Sampras, one of the most competitive people on the planet, suddenly doesn't care about winning ... even on the WTT? (Right!)

If you think that Sampras cares as much about winning a WTT pro-set as winning Wimbledon then clearly that thin air in Colorado has gotten to your head.

NWIP

You know, every time you write that I go back and re-read what you posted and guess what? It's EXACTLY what you posted!

I don't believe a single tournament champ in all of Colorado plays with the PS 85 ... and I follow Colorado tennis pretty closely. *And* our thinner air makes for a much higher percentage of "old school" S&V players ... a style which lends itself nicely to the playing characteristics of the PS. (You live in a ... world ... all of your own design, I think.)

And how many avid tennis players are there in all of Colorado? I'd bet there are more tennis players in most counties in California as there are in ALL of Colorado. Heck, there are so many tennis players in California that the USTA had to split the state in two and make two whole USTA sections just for California alone. Colorado? They had to group six whole States together just to get enough players to make one single section. So who has more exposure to a larger diversity of tennis players?

I guess this depends on what you mean by "a lot."

Just about all the male tennis players around here over age 30 who play doubles at a fairly high level are serve and volley players.

NWIP

Yup, again (see above)

Kaptain Karl
08-20-2006, 08:11 AM
Kaptain Karl what do you mean by "big flat-ish groundstrokes"? Do you mean fast or what?Sorry, Janne. I missed this earlier.

I mean "powerful, weighty" flat-ish ground strokes. Not necessarily the most powerful, but hard and mostly flat....
_____________
The only part of the "PS85 user profile " that really applies to me is flat strokes. I hit with some topspin, but not much.
I successfully mix net play with baseline. My serve got fast only this week after I discovered "loose wrist"(already starting too get compliments). I tend to work on every area of my game.
What other people compliment me most about are my consistency, my backhand(2h), and my court coverage.

Of course everything above is relative to my playing level, which I rate 3.75 and I believe I am not inflating it as this forum usually assumes.Up until "I tend to work on every area of my game," I was thinking, "Yeah. For your level, you more-or-less *do* fit the profile.

I don't pretend to know all the sticks -- even "most of the sticks" -- out there and how they fit different types of players' games. (I'm no longer Teaching or Coaching. And, frankly, keeping up with the gear was never my fortť.)

If by, "I tend to work on every area of my game," you mean ... your ground strokes ... your passing shots ... your lobs (offensive and defensive) ... your return of serve ... your ability to manage points (whether the exchanges are long (20+ shots) or short (5 or fewer) ... your variety of spins employed ... your use of changes in depth-of-shot to aid in point construction ... etc. ... are all approaching the levels of proficiency you have with your serving and your volleying.... If your game is becoming that well-rounded, you *might* be helped by asking around to learn what Teaching Pro or Coach is known for his/her ability to match gear to a player's style. Check with that person ... and use the Racquet Finder (http://www.racquetfinder.com/search.htm), here on TW's site to try four or five other sticks which may benefit you more. Having just been through an agonizing demo-search for my new frame, I can also attest to the very helpful wisdom of many of our fellow TT members.

If not ... nevermind.

Kaptain Karl
08-20-2006, 08:41 AM
But just because you can't play with a Prince racquet doesn't mean it's the racquet's fault, does it? Many other people can play great with Prince racquets.::sigh:: I'll stand by what I posted.

... Have you not read NBMJ's never-ending repetitive drivel here over the years?Considering the source of this comment, this is truly ironic. (The curious thing is, you and I seem to be somewhat closely aligned ... politically and socially. NBMJ and I have disagreed on those fronts almost universally. But when it comes to tennis your POV is ... confounding. And NBMJ's tennis views are way more "sound" IMO. This does not mean he and I agree on all tennis issues; just that he, at least makes sense.)

You know, every time you write that I go back and re-read what you posted and guess what? It's EXACTLY what you posted!BP, I mean this in all sincerity. You really need some help with reading comprehension.

I used to think you were merely a "provocateur". Now, I recognize that you have some ... deficiency. I'm sorry for making fun of your argumentation all these months. (Most Public Libraries have excellent Adult Reading programs. Check it out.)

I'd bet there are more tennis players in most counties in California as there are in ALL of Colorado....If numbers were all that mattered, we should all aspire to be ... cockroaches.

... So who has more exposure to a larger diversity of tennis players?This is easy. "Someone who is an active part of the tennis scene in California." (Trouble is, I have no assurance you are "active" ... "part of the tennis scene" ... OR "in California." You spend so much of your time on TT I have wondered if you play much tennis at all....)

- KK

MordredSJT
08-20-2006, 10:09 AM
I find this thread highly entertaining. I'll throw in the several things that have popped up in my mind while reading...

I'm a 5.0, ex-college player who is constantly switching back and forth between the PS 6.0 85 and the nCode Tour 90.

The only things I do better with the 90 are play defense (which is not the best part of my game anyway), hit very spinny topspin forehands, and I estimate about a 5% boost in first serve percentage with a slight dropoff in speed. My backhand is flatter than flat and is pretty much a push (edit- my backhand is not itself a push, it is usually hit as hard as possible when not sliced, push as in even between the rackets). Stepping inside the baseline and hitting "flat" groundstrokes (meaning driving topspin on my forehand and OMG that's like a knuckleball backhands) feels better with the 85. The 85 volleys better and I hit bigger serves (I haven't hit a flat serve since I was 12...even the bombs have topspin). I usually end up subtly altering my playing style depending on the racket I'm using...

I cannot play my game with a Prince racket...any of them. I played with Prince rackets from highschool all the way through college. I started playing with the 6.0 85 the year after I graduated from college (2003 if you are wondering). As I started hitting flatter and flatter, got more and more aggressive, and started serving and volleying more and more in singles due to my doubles experience (hardly ever played doubles before college, never served and volleyed)...I moved from an oversive 28" Prince (Chang OS), to a midplus 27.25" Prince (TT Graphite MP), to a 27" midplus Prince (More Approach), to the 6.0 85. Whenever I play with Prince rackets I find myself staying back and ripping heavy topspin...even spinning my backhand a little, and going for monster spin serves.

A good player can play with any racket...but it is difficult to play the exact same game with every racket. If you are a baseline basher hitting with heavy topspin on both sides, rarely coming to net, and you are still using a 6.0 85...you should ask yourself why! Now, that being said...I'm going to go out and play some doubles with my 85 in a few hours, and if I don't hit a single groundstroke (not counting service returns) I will be a happy man :)

chess9
08-20-2006, 02:06 PM
All I know is, I don't know how many times I've gotten myself in trouble by judging a player by the racquet he uses before the match has even started. I've had my butt whipped by opponents wielding everything from 70 sq. in., 30 year-old racquets to 135 sq. in. fan-shaped monstrosities with all the latest technology. Good players will use everything under the sun just as bad players will also use everything under the sun. The bottom line is that you can't judge a tennis player by the racquet that he/she uses just as you can't judge a book by its cover. Someone very wise said that once.......I mean about tennis players, not books. ;) LOL

I played this old guy about ten days ago. He was carrying an extra 10 lbs or so. He was an obvious blue collar guy from his language. Didn't go to Harvard, unless their standards have slipped. He was using some Head monstrosity and had a very high rating. I was a bit confused until I got out there and realized the guy never missed a single shot and all his balls were deep and into the corners. I got spanked. I likewise watched another match with a guy my age using a 6.0 and he was crushing the ball back to a younger, and less fit, guy with a Babolat PD. The 6.0 guy lost in three sets, I think, but it was a great match.

I have no clue what lessons to draw from all of that, except possibly that drawing any conclusion would be unwarranted.

-Robert

Roforot
08-20-2006, 05:39 PM
I don't play w/ PS 6.0, but also use another old frame (SRD Tour) and it's funny how many misinformed (even well intentioned) people there are.

I've recently changed to a 1-handed BH and was playing a ladder match. I was up 5-0 1st set, when the guy finally realized how much weaker my BH was and starting hitting everything there. I don't mind b/c that's what I want to practice. So I end up losing 7-5, 6-2. Anyway, this must have been a great win for the guy b/c he was very exuberant, carried on like he was Brad Gilbert... and wanted to tell me how he "turned it around!" and how he attacked my BH and how it was clear that "people" can't hit good BHs with small racquets! I won't mention what Midplus+ he used b/c it's not relevant.

Anyway, we played a third set for *fun* and I beat him 6-2. I went back to 2h-BH... I've got the rest of my tennis life to work on a 1H-BH :) The funniest thing is that it took him 5 games to realize my 1H-Bh was so weak, and I don't think he realized that I changed in the third set back to a 2H-BH:)

So perceptions can be faulty. You can't judge a person by his racquet (although I will say that people who have multiple copies of the same racquet that appear to have been used for 2+ years tend to be bloody good). And people can hit good backhands w/ midsized frames.

EDITED to add:
BTW, I've tried the o3tourMP as well for 1hBH and clearly hit better w/ the SRDtour90, though I've obviously seen others hit beautiful ones w/ larger frames.

Arafel
08-20-2006, 11:40 PM
If you are a baseline basher hitting with heavy topspin on both sides, rarely coming to net, and you are still using a 6.0 85...you should ask yourself why!

Tell that to Aaron Krickstein, Jim Courier and Chris Evert. :)

MordredSJT
08-21-2006, 06:13 AM
Tell that to Aaron Krickstein, Jim Courier and Chris Evert. :)

They used the 6.0 PS 85. Used. These people were alive when graphite composites were new and grounbreaking...when people were still using wood rackets...when 85 square inches was one of the bigger headsizes available.

I know not what has become of Krickstein. Courier is still playing with something that has an nCode paintjob. Do you think Evert goes out and bangs the ball around with her old Pro Staff?

If they were all coming up now, they would probably pick a different racket to play with.

maverick1
08-21-2006, 06:19 AM
Looks like some of the more objective posters feel that it is harder to play defense and harder to hit topspin with the PS85, and come to think of it, I have been finding it difficult to generate a lot of topspin and I have wondered why my defensive lob is so bad. I seem to have better percentages with a desperation passing shot than with my defensive lob.

Next time I try a newer racket, I will attempt to observe a difference in these two areas. But if my serves & volleys are going to be worse, I don't know where that leaves me. By far my most effective point ending shot has been the touch/drop volley.
If it doesn't make a net difference to my game, I would prefer a racket that favors my offense at the expense of defense. I want my matches to be shorter.

vin
08-21-2006, 07:51 AM
Now that Sampras is playing for "fun" (WTT), he uses an easier stick. But for some reason, the people who should really be playing for fun (all of us) are using the stick Sampras has deemed counterproductive to his fun. Funny. :D

Arafel
08-21-2006, 07:51 AM
They used the 6.0 PS 85. Used. These people were alive when graphite composites were new and grounbreaking...when people were still using wood rackets...when 85 square inches was one of the bigger headsizes available.

I know not what has become of Krickstein. Courier is still playing with something that has an nCode paintjob. Do you think Evert goes out and bangs the ball around with her old Pro Staff?

If they were all coming up now, they would probably pick a different racket to play with.

Don't know about Evert, but Krickstein uses the PS85 on the senior tour, and I believe, at least according to what some people here have said, Courier's racquet under the nCode paint job is a PS85 as well.

Richie Rich
08-21-2006, 07:57 AM
Don't know about Evert, but Krickstein uses the PS85 on the senior tour, and I believe, at least according to what some people here have said, Courier's racquet under the nCode paint job is a PS85 as well.
but these guys are *pros* and most of us are 4.0-5.0 trying to use a frame only a handful of pro's can use?

i grew up at the end of the wood/aluminum era when the 6.0 85 was released and every good player used it. compared to wood and aluminum it was a huge leap forward. it's now a relic.

i'm an advocat of use whatever you want to use to have fun and what you are comfortable with. want to use the 6.0 85? go ahead but beware of it's limitations. same can be said for any racquet made these days.

Rory G
08-21-2006, 08:07 AM
This tweener/player's/headsize/weight issue is ludicrous. I use a heavier, flexible racquet (98"-100") because I like the comfort, stability, control and results. When I try lighter and stiffer racquets, FOR ME I lose way too much control and stability and usually develop some type of arm or shoulder pain. I play with a number of players similar to my situation; but I also play with numerous players that love their light frames and they play extremely good tennis. People on this board that get worked up when they "see someone using a 6.0 85", are fixated with the belief that mid size sticks are wrong for everyone, or say that "tweeners are only for lesser players" need to relax and worry about their own game. Its an individual choice and to echo what a previous poster said.....its for FUN ;)

oldguysrule
08-21-2006, 08:34 AM
I posted this in another thread...it also applies here. (see the quit obsessing part)...


"IMO, the distinction between "tweeners", "player's" and "game improvement" frames is sufficiently muddled that these lablels have no meaning. There are no "demanding" frames or "easy" frames. There are frames that fit your game and your swing better than other frames...which leads some to think that one is easier to play with than another. However, that same frame might be harder for someone else to play with. That is why there are so many different specifications for frames. Some like it hot, some like it cold. Some like it heavy, some like it light. Some like it big, some like it small. Get the picture? Pick the frame that you play the best with and don't worry about what anyone else plays with.

If you pick a frame for pride or ego, you really have problems and miss the point of playing a sport. There is no pride in losing unless you played hard, gave it your best shot, and gave yourself the best chance to win with the right equipment choices. Choosing equipment based on how you look, or what someone else thinks is not the best way to do it. Again, choose the frame that gives you the best chance to win and improve.

And finally, no racquet is going to make your strokes, technique, or concentration any better. This comes from practice, both physically and mentally. If you think using a "demanding" racquet will make your strokes better, you are mistaken. It might make your strokes better with that racquet, but then what happens when you switch back to your "easier" racquet.

Find a racquet that you feel comfortable with, practice hard with it, don't switch racquets all the time, don't obsess with what other people use, and go out and have fun playing tennis. You might choose a racquet that is small and heavy, big and light, or big and heavy. It doesn't matter as long as it is the right frame for you."

Offshore
08-21-2006, 08:51 AM
I posted this in another thread...it also applies here. (see the quit obsessing part)...
Find a racquet that you feel comfortable with, practice hard with it, don't switch racquets all the time, don't obsess with what other people use, and go out and have fun playing tennis. You might choose a racquet that is small and heavy, big and light, or big and heavy. It doesn't matter as long as it is the right frame for you."

I completely agree. There is a big difference between good advice as to what "might" be a good racquet for someone to try versus making blanket generalizations regarding weight or headsizes that "all" should use (or personally insulting people that use a racquet that you do not think they should be using). Also, as I finish my longer than expected demo period, I am a huge believer in choosing a comfortable and appropriate racquet and then not switching frames for a long, long time. I thihk that this will lead to the development of a better overall game and success on the court.

MordredSJT
08-21-2006, 08:52 AM
Next time I try a newer racket, I will attempt to observe a difference in these two areas. But if my serves & volleys are going to be worse, I don't know where that leaves me.

That leaves you where it leaves everyone. There is no perfect racket. You will always be weighing positives and negatives. If I were only hitting serves, and under no circumstances had to hit any other shot...I would pick up a Pure Drive+ and never think twice. If I'm only hitting groundstrokes from the baseline, I'd probably take a Prince Tour NXG OS and just start ripping heavy topspin like crazy. If I'm only volleying I'm taking my PS 6.0 85. If I'm only hitting approaches I would probably take my old Prince TT Graphite Midplus (that's just me though).

If I have to choose one racket to do everything with, right now it is between my Pro Staff and my nCode Tour. I should be getting an nBlade from Wilson here sometime soon...maybe I will switch, maybe not...I'm going to play it stock and then see if adding some lead to get the weight up can get me a midplus that could replace my current frames.

Kaptain Karl
08-21-2006, 09:30 AM
oldguysrule!!! Bingo!

(If I owned TT, I'd have closed this thread after that post ^^^. But....)

- KK

oldguysrule
08-21-2006, 10:49 AM
oldguysrule!!! Bingo!

(If I owned TT, I'd have closed this thread after that post ^^^. But....)

- KK

Thanks. Even a blind dog hits the tree occasionally.

off-topic...a friend of mine from junior tennis in Central Texas is doing well in Colorado in 45's. His name is Don in case you ever run into him. He lives in the Springs and is a super guy.

jackson vile
08-21-2006, 11:11 AM
My tnt-90 are 13oz, and improved my game even beyond what the 2 different PC600 did.

I tryed going back to my LMPMP just to see how it would feel, and it felt out of control.

The small head is just so much more reliable and acurate, much much more stable even if you do hit a frame here or there, it allows me to hit shots that I simply could not hit with high percentages before.

Also as a result this racket hits with more spin and thus a heavier ball, also I am no longer a brainless basline basher, I prefer to end the point with sharp angles and the right shot at the right time


I am 6'3" so perhaps I needed a heavier racket, but I don't understand how someone get tired, they must be hitting wrong. This racket is less work for me, even if I am not trying to end the point early, also I don't have to hit with as much topspin to get my usual spin.

I have 5 and I am keeping all of them end of story.

I will sell 1 of my prestige classics though, 9.5 out of 10:mrgreen:

BreakPoint
08-21-2006, 01:30 PM
Don't know about Evert, but Krickstein uses the PS85 on the senior tour, and I believe, at least according to what some people here have said, Courier's racquet under the nCode paint job is a PS85 as well.

That is correct. Courier's racquet is most definitely a PS 6.0 85 with a nCode90 paintjob.

BreakPoint
08-21-2006, 01:34 PM
but these guys are *pros* and most of us are 4.0-5.0 trying to use a frame only a handful of pro's can use?


OTOH, if pros can use the PS 6.0 85 against pro-level opponents that are blasting serves at them at 130mph and groundies at 100mph, imagine how easy it would be for us 4.0-5.0 players to use the PS 6.0 85 against opponents that are hitting the ball at us softly and gently and slowly in comparison. ;)

Janne
08-21-2006, 01:38 PM
OTOH, if pros can use the PS 6.0 85 against pro-level opponents that are blasting serves at them at 130mph and groundies at 100mph, imagine how easy it would be for us 4.0-5.0 players to use the PS 6.0 85 against opponents that are hitting the ball at us softly and gently and slowly in comparison. ;)

This should be the answer for everyone who says stuff like "You can't use that racquet because even pro's have a hard time using them". Just like BP said; we DONT play against professionals like Federer. We play against people at OUR level that do not hit the ball as good as pro's do.

BreakPoint
08-21-2006, 01:46 PM
Again, choose the frame that gives you the best chance to win and improve.


Oldguy,
Great post and excellent points!! :D I agree with just about everything you said!

However, one exception to your sentence above is that some people may choose a frame, for instance the PS 6.0 85, because they enjoy hitting the ball with it, they love the feel, and it makes for an overall enjoyable experience playing tennis. Now, they may not win with it and they may not even improve with it, but boy, they're having a great time out there hitting the ball because the feel is incomparable. So for some people, it's not all about just winning. There may be other factors involved in their decision to choose one racquet over another. As poster vin mentioned above, the bottom line is that it should be all about fun, shouldn't it? :D

oldguysrule
08-21-2006, 02:01 PM
Oldguy,
Great post and excellent points!! :D I agree with just about everything you said!

However, one exception to your sentence above is that some people may choose a frame, for instance the PS 6.0 85, because they enjoy hitting the ball with it, they love the feel, and it makes for an overall enjoyable experience playing tennis. Now, they may not win with it and they may not even improve with it, but boy, they're having a great time out there hitting the ball because the feel is incomparable. So for some people, it's not all about just winning. There may be other factors involved in their decision to choose one racquet over another. As poster vin mentioned above, the bottom line is that it should be all about fun, shouldn't it? :D

Absolutely, don't do it if it is not fun. I just can't get that to apply to yardwork...

Richie Rich
08-21-2006, 02:30 PM
OTOH, if pros can use the PS 6.0 85 against pro-level opponents that are blasting serves at them at 130mph and groundies at 100mph, imagine how easy it would be for us 4.0-5.0 players to use the PS 6.0 85 against opponents that are hitting the ball at us softly and gently and slowly in comparison. ;)
i'm still not buying it. their timing is better, their mechanics are better, their footwork is better, they are stronger and fitter (than most of us anyway).

i'm a 4.5/5.0 and i struggled with the 6.0 85. i might have adapted to the frame over time but i'm better off with a midplus extended length frame (i use the TF 325). in a few years when i turn the big 40 i will very likely go to a racquet that does more of the work for me. anyway, the idea of using the 6.0 85 for fun, even losing all the time, is exactly the kind of people the OP was referring too, wasn't it?

it would be good to see how many pro's actually use the 85sq inch version of the 6.0 still. bet it's not many. most wilson sponsored pros that use the pro staff line seem to use 95sq inch versions (i'm ignoring the hammer lines, surges, etc since those are available in MP sizes anyway)

textbook strokes
08-21-2006, 02:57 PM
I do not think the "we only face club players, not pros, so we can afford the disadvantage of using a demanding frame" argument makes sense. By the same reasoning you are implying that both -you and your opponent- could be playing better with frames not so demanding .

Also, compromising in order to achieve common grounds imho, is wothless.

The ps 85 6.0 is demanding and not suitable for non advanced players. it is also absolete, being designed almost 30 years ago.

You can use whatever you want, you could love the feeling, and you can post forever here, and even fool yourself..., but that frame is not going to get more updated, easier to use or really hep you.

BreakPoint
08-21-2006, 03:17 PM
I do not think the "we only face club players, not pros, so we can afford the disadvantage of using a demanding frame" argument makes sense. By the same reasoning you are implying that both -you and your opponent- could be playing better with frames not so demanding .


Does it make any more sense for both you and your opponent to both switch racquets so that you both play better? Isn't "better" only relative to what your opponent can/cannot do?

Say both of you use "demanding" racquets and both of you are about equal and usually split sets. Now both of you switch racquets to something "less demanding" and you both play better. So what? What difference did it make? None!! You both are still about equal and you both still continue to split sets. Do you get my point? Nobody wins. Switching to a racquet that helps you to beat your opponets only works if none of your opponents are allowed to make a switch.

BTW, no racquet is going to turn you into a pro, so playing "better" is all relative. BTW2, I'm not saying that playing with a so-called "demanding" frame puts you at a disadvantage.

donnyz89
08-21-2006, 03:18 PM
I wouldnt say I would play with a frame thats less demanding... a more powerful frame would limit my control. I wouldnt be able to swing as fast, I would have to change my game significantly and not play the way I do. I doubt there is a less demanding frame that I could pick up and play better with. though I do have to agree, hitting with the O3 Tour feels easier to get penetration but then again, I dont get as much feel.

and I seen a girl using prostaff 6.1 and she hits the @#$% out of the ball, she could prolly take anyone in cat 1&2 anyday. maybe a few games from cat 3 ppl.

BreakPoint
08-21-2006, 03:19 PM
i'm still not buying it. their timing is better, their mechanics are better, their footwork is better, they are stronger and fitter (than most of us anyway).


Yes, the pros need to be all of that you mentioned above in order to be able to compete with the pro-level competiton that they face, regardless of their racquet. We do not because our competiton is significantly weaker.

newnuse
08-21-2006, 04:31 PM
The argument is that weaker players should not use the PS85 because it is so demanding. I'm not going to argue that is isn't demanding since it is a tough frame to play with.

But I don't think it should not rule out them using the PS85". They will be playing against weaker players their level. For ex., lets take a 2.5 level player... they will play other 2.5 level players. If they play a 3.5 level player, they would get their butt kicked no matter what racket they use. So against other soft hitting 2.5'ers, you have more time to return the ball.

I'm not advocating 2.5'ers go out and buy the PS85". I'm saying they could use it if they like it enough. Their level of competition would not be hitting bullets at them.

alb1
08-21-2006, 08:20 PM
It's been about four years since I've played anyone using a PS85. I didn't know they were still being made until I came across the TW site. I believe Netman was referring to competive situations as opposed to guys just playing for fun.That is quite a wide range of opponents. I don't know what he considers old, but a newbie is a newbie no matter what racket they use. A former top level D1 can use any racket, some of the old ones are just too cheap to buy a new racket.

Kaptain Karl
08-21-2006, 10:36 PM
... some people may choose a frame, for instance the PS 6.0 85, because they enjoy hitting the ball with it, they love the feel, and it makes for an overall enjoyable experience playing tennis. ... So for some people, it's not all about just winning.This "Zen stuff" is just ... weird. And it's not "all" about "just" winning; but winning is a big part of it.

Does it make any more sense for both you and your opponent to both switch racquets so that you both play better?Certainly!

Isn't "better" only relative to what your opponent can/cannot do?Nope. "Better" is my own objective-as-possible-on-my-own analysis of if I'm performing within my expectations given my knowledge of my condition, my game, my abilities ... and whether or not "x" frame compliments my own style, or it doesn't ... AND whether or not I can WIN with all the afore-mentioned in place. (The thing is, my opponents may arrive at completely different conclusions, doing *their* self-assessments. Great!)

Say both of you use "demanding" racquets and both of you are about equal and usually split sets. Now both of you switch racquets to something "less demanding" and you both play better.Not possible in my formula. One of you still WINS ... or wins post equipment change as a new event. Only one of us actually got "better".

Switching to a racquet that helps you to beat your opponets only works if none of your opponents are allowed to make a switch.Nonsense! My opponents and I are individuals, with individual abilities, strenghts and weaknesses. At my level, I've found that as little as a 3% change can "make" or "break" my progress against my opponents.

This is why I've ... lost weight ... toned-up more ... worked harder on my cardio fitness, etc. Interestingly, the result of the above changes was ... gradually I became aware my improved fitness had put me in the predicament of realizing my stick of the last several years wasn't able to keep up with what *I* was trying to do with the ball. So I just re-demoed (Which I detest doing) and found a frame which can keep up with me "new improved" 50 year old bod.

Lastly, while I admit a tendency to generalize about my expectations when I see someone with a PS 85 ... or other unique frames ... I still admit a frame which may be "demanding" for Joe, may also be "inadequate" for Bob; not because Joe's a 5.0 and Bob's a 4.0, but because Joe and Bob are just different. (I hope I don't need to explain *that* in more detail.)

- KK

BreakPoint
08-21-2006, 11:14 PM
This is why I've ... lost weight ... toned-up more ... worked harder on my cardio fitness, etc.
But that has nothing to do with your racquet. You got better because you got fitter. That's my whole point. One should make themselves better in order to play better instead of switching racquets to make themselves better. In the latter case, they didn't really get any better, it was just their racquet getting better.

So I just re-demoed (Which I detest doing) and found a frame which can keep up with me "new improved" 50 year old bod.

So what if all of your opponents do the same thing and demo racquets and find one that they can now beat you with even with your new racquet? What will you do? Go demo again and find an even better racquet so that you can beat those same opponents again? When will this one-upmanship end? Isn't it better to use the same racquet and work on your game to improve so that you can beat your opponents rather than changing racquets so that you can beat your opponents? Again, in the latter case, you didn't really get any better but instead you found a racquet that does more of the work for you.

Kaptain Karl
08-21-2006, 11:23 PM
BP - Have you looked into those Adult Reading Programs yet? It's as if you decide to ignore the whole of my post ... grab a few excerpts ... and try to make it seem as if I posted something I didn't post.

Go back and read my whole post as a comprehensive line of thought. Keep trying; you'll get it sooner or later.

- KK

sarpmas
08-22-2006, 02:31 AM
It's not just about mids or mid pluses. You have to remember, head size is only part of the racket's specs. There are many other specs like weight, sw, flex and even intangibles like 'feel' that make you like your racket. It's the overall specs in short. It's this overall specs of the racket that suits your playing style which allows you to play best with it and feel most comfortable with it. It's personal preferences.

oldguysrule
08-23-2006, 03:05 PM
...So what if all of your opponents do the same thing and demo racquets and find one that they can now beat you with even with your new racquet? What will you do? Go demo again and find an even better racquet so that you can beat those same opponents again? When will this one-upmanship end? Isn't it better to use the same racquet and work on your game to improve so that you can beat your opponents rather than changing racquets so that you can beat your opponents? Again, in the latter case, you didn't really get any better but instead you found a racquet that does more of the work for you.

BP, he didn't say he switched racquets so that he could beat a certain opponent. He said he switched because the racquet he had could not do what he was trying to do with it in terms of stroke production. He demoed and found a racquet that could keep up with his better abilities. Your last sentence has no relation to his post and is arguementative because he did get better and he switched to a racquet that most would consider more demanding than his last racquet.

Not only that, with his last point he opened the door to meeting you in the middle on this whole debate. Read his post again, walk through the door, and let's put this thread to bed.

Keifers
08-23-2006, 04:58 PM
It's not just about mids or mid pluses. You have to remember, head size is only part of the racket's specs. There are many other specs like weight, sw, flex and even intangibles like 'feel' that make you like your racket. It's the overall specs in short. It's this overall specs of the racket that suits your playing style which allows you to play best with it and feel most comfortable with it. It's personal preferences.
Good point. How you play with a racquet - and how much you like playing with it - depend on all these variables -- and more (beam width is a factor that is important to me). Some variables are more significant that others, of course, but specifically which are more and which are less significant vary by individual too.

Racquet designers make many choices as they 'cook up' a final design (it's like a recipe). And then we get to make some choices - string, gauge, tension, lead weighting, etc. - to come up with a final, final stick. It can be a frustrating process sometimes, but for us racquet [geeks, freaks, enthusiasts?] it can be a lot of fun. And really, really satisfying when we hit it just right. :cool: