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Ball Control Tennis
08-28-2006, 11:30 PM
Roger Federerís forehand stroke is one of best examples of ball control stroke, whose advantages have been introduced by Ball Control Tennis previously, as given at the web page, which speculates on the future of tennis:
http://www.ballcontrol.net/bcfuture.htm
To complete the Ball Control Tennis discussion, we need to point out the disadvantages of ball control. Briefly, the ball control stroke may not be used effectively against a topspin because a topspin may have twice the forward speed as an ordinary shot with little spin, making the timing for ball control twice as difficult.

An incoming ball loses 40% of its forward speed after hitting the ground. The forward speed changes into rotational speed after hitting the ground without slipping. A 100 miles per hour ball changes into a 60 mph ball after hitting the ground. But, when there is topspin, the incoming 100 mph ball will have 100 or more mph after hitting the ground. To apply jumpulse (a sudden increase of force) at a precise moment of contact is difficult at 60mph; only Federer can do it on a regular basis. To mentally catch the precise timing in a ball control stroke to return a 100 or more mph topspin with a strange bounce due to the topspin is nearly impossible, especially, when one has to hit the ball on the run.

Topspin shot has the advantages that the sliding of the ball on the racket spreads out the impact force resulting in prolonged dwell time and that the topspin causing the ball to dip down resulting in higher probability of making a good shot. Topspin game had dominated table tennis for over a decade in the 1960s. The topspin style is just starting to show its advantage in tennis and can be expect to dominate in tennis as it had done in table tennis. However, the topspin game was wiped out almost overnight, after a world champion was beaten by a block player by the score of around 6 to 21.

The proper shot to return a strong topspin shot is the block, which is currently done in tennis only as a last resort, such as in returning a serve or in save a shot at the end of a long run, or in a volley or half volley. The block stroke has little follow through with a push motion. A ball control block introduces a constant acceleration or jerk, a rate of increase of acceleration, into the block stroke. The reason that the block is most effective against the topspin is that the topspin has large forward speed favorable to a block return and it naturally provide a upward component in the return shot, which has the same effect as the applied upward lift in ball control.

Ball control block, however, takes a long time to learn, probably longer than any other stroke, because a good block player need to be familiar with all types of attack shots. For example, one should block a topspin using a half volley and block a strong smash at about or over the net height. In a ball control smash hit, the key is the precise timing achieved through a mental image. And in a ball control block hit, the timing does not need to be precise, but the direction and the amount of "impact force" on returning the ball need to be very accurate. This take a great deal of drill in returning smash, serves, and strong topspin shots. Federer is already a very good block player, but he needs to improve his shot selection and perfect his block stroke as a part of his regular style.

Generally, in terms of the styles of play, the block is good against the topspin, which is good against the ball control, which is good against the no spin or slice, which is good against the block. Thus, each major style should be accompanied by a minor style which compensates for the weakness of the major style. For example, Federer should perfect his block style, especially, his backhand, which is a weakness on clay. He should not used the ball control stroke for returning strong topspin shots; he should block back strong topspin shots and ball control all the other shots. A historical note of caution for block players: the block style could not reached the world class in table tennis because they could not beat all other styles; it is the weakest of all styles, and it is good against the strongest. Tennis players are still not familiar with the block style, and for the next ten years, topspin will most likely become the most popular style. However, we believe that the combination of the ball control, which is key to consistency, and the block, which is needed against the topspin, will be the real formidable style. Thank you. [CYL, Y, LS] ###

tennisfanatic
08-28-2006, 11:49 PM
Roger Federerís forehand stroke is one of best examples of ball control stroke, whose advantages have been introduced by Ball Control Tennis previously, as given at the web page, which speculates on the future of tennis:
http://www.ballcontrol.net/bcfuture.htm
To complete the Ball Control Tennis discussion, we need to point out the disadvantages of ball control. Briefly, the ball control stroke may not be used effectively against a topspin because a topspin may have twice the forward speed as an ordinary shot with little spin, making the timing for ball control twice as difficult.

An incoming ball loses 40% of its forward speed after hitting the ground. The forward speed changes into rotational speed after hitting the ground without slipping. A 100 miles per hour ball changes into a 60 mph ball after hitting the ground. But, when there is topspin, the incoming 100 mph ball will have 100 or more mph after hitting the ground. To apply jumpulse (a sudden increase of force) at a precise moment of contact is difficult at 60mph; only Federer can do it on a regular basis. To mentally catch the precise timing in a ball control stroke to return a 100 or more mph topspin with a strange bounce due to the topspin is nearly impossible, especially, when one has to hit the ball on the run.

Topspin shot has the advantages that the sliding of the ball on the racket spreads out the impact force resulting in prolonged dwell time and that the topspin causing the ball to dip down resulting in higher probability of making a good shot. Topspin game had dominated table tennis for over a decade in the 1960s. The topspin style is just starting to show its advantage in tennis and can be expect to dominate in tennis as it had done in table tennis. However, the topspin game was wiped out almost overnight, after a world champion was beaten by a block player by the score of around 6 to 21.

The proper shot to return a strong topspin shot is the block, which is currently done in tennis only as a last resort, such as in returning a serve or in save a shot at the end of a long run, or in a volley or half volley. The block stroke has little follow through with a push motion. A ball control block introduces a constant acceleration or jerk, a rate of increase of acceleration, into the block stroke. The reason that the block is most effective against the topspin is that the topspin has large forward speed favorable to a block return and it naturally provide a upward component in the return shot, which has the same effect as the applied upward lift in ball control.

Ball control block, however, takes a long time to learn, probably longer than any other stroke, because a good block player need to be familiar with all types of attack shots. For example, one should block a topspin using a half volley and block a strong smash at about or over the net height. In a ball control smash hit, the key is the precise timing achieved through a mental image. And in a ball control block hit, the timing does not need to be precise, but the direction and the amount of "impact force" on returning the ball need to be very accurate. This take a great deal of drill in returning smash, serves, and strong topspin shots. Federer is already a very good block player, but he needs to improve his shot selection and perfect his block stroke as a part of his regular style.

Generally, in terms of the styles of play, the block is good against the topspin, which is good against the ball control, which is good against the no spin or slice, which is good against the block. Thus, each major style should be accompanied by a minor style which compensates for the weakness of the major style. For example, Federer should perfect his block style, especially, his backhand, which is a weakness on clay. He should not used the ball control stroke for returning strong topspin shots; he should block back strong topspin shots and ball control all the other shots. A historical note of caution for block players: the block style could not reached the world class in table tennis because they could not beat all other styles; it is the weakest of all styles, and it is good against the strongest. Tennis players are still not familiar with the block style, and for the next ten years, topspin will most likely become the most popular style. However, we believe that the combination of the ball control, which is key to consistency, and the block, which is needed against the topspin, will be the real formidable style. Thank you. [CYL, Y, LS] ###

yet another ball control thread.....................:rolleyes:

nickybol
08-29-2006, 12:05 AM
It seems like a very interesting post. No time to read it now, but I will surely do later!

artworks
08-29-2006, 12:09 AM
Ok. Go and beat Federer.

Swissv2
08-29-2006, 12:16 AM
this should be a letter to federer's coach, roachie.

Lets see what he has to say about this!

deluxe
08-29-2006, 02:32 AM
An incoming ball loses 40% of its forward speed after hitting the ground. The forward speed changes into rotational speed after hitting the ground without slipping. A 100 miles per hour ball changes into a 60 mph ball after hitting the ground. But, when there is topspin, the incoming 100 mph ball will have 100 or more mph after hitting the ground.

We have the numbers for John Yandell's Advanced Tennis project, where they actually measure these numbers.

If you have a membership of tennisplayer.net, then you can find some numbers here: http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/mystheavyball/john_yandell/ball_speed_pro_tennis/ball_speed_pro_tennis_page1.html

Averaged of 29 balls, Sampras' first serve was 120mph and had 2500rpm of spin. Just before the bounce it was going 87mph, just after the bounce it was going 62 mph.

The average of the Sampras topspin forehand was 76mph immediately after contact, 49mph just before the bounce, 34mph just after the bounce.

If you make sh*t up, you'll be found out.

deluxe
08-29-2006, 02:38 AM
The topspin style is just starting to show its advantage in tennis and can be expect to dominate in tennis as it had done in table tennis. However, the topspin game was wiped out almost overnight, after a world champion was beaten by a block player by the score of around 6 to 21.


If you think the topspin game was "wiped out almost overnight" in table tennis, you obviously haven't seen any table tennis recently. "a world champion", "a block player", "score of around 6 to 21".

Which match was this? Table Tennis hasn't been played up to 21 for over five years now, and since when has a table tennis match been one game?

deluxe
08-29-2006, 02:41 AM
The proper shot to return a strong topspin shot is the block, which is currently done in tennis only as a last resort, such as in returning a serve or in save a shot at the end of a long run, or in a volley or half volley. The block stroke has little follow through with a push motion.

Have you ever played tennis?

You think the right way to win groundstroke rallies against Nadal is to block the ball with a push motion and little follow through?!?!?!?!

WTF???

Ball Control Tennis
08-29-2006, 06:09 AM
We have the numbers for John Yandell's Advanced Tennis project, where they actually measure these numbers.

If you have a membership of tennisplayer.net, then you can find some numbers here: http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/mystheavyball/john_yandell/ball_speed_pro_tennis/ball_speed_pro_tennis_page1.html

Averaged of 29 balls, Sampras' first serve was 120mph and had 2500rpm of spin. Just before the bounce it was going 87mph, just after the bounce it was going 62 mph.

The average of the Sampras topspin forehand was 76mph immediately after contact, 49mph just before the bounce, 34mph just after the bounce.

Very good. Thank you.

If you make sh*t up, you'll be found out.

Ball Control Tennis
08-29-2006, 06:13 AM
We have the numbers for John Yandell's Advanced Tennis project, where they actually measure these numbers.

If you have a membership of tennisplayer.net, then you can find some numbers here: http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/mystheavyball/john_yandell/ball_speed_pro_tennis/ball_speed_pro_tennis_page1.html

Averaged of 29 balls, Sampras' first serve was 120mph and had 2500rpm of spin. Just before the bounce it was going 87mph, just after the bounce it was going 62 mph.

The average of the Sampras topspin forehand was 76mph immediately after contact, 49mph just before the bounce, 34mph just after the bounce.

If you make sh*t up, you'll be found out.

Very good. Thank you.

deluxe
08-29-2006, 06:15 AM
But, when there is topspin, the incoming 100 mph ball will have 100 or more mph after hitting the ground.

62 < 87 < 120
34 < 49 < 76

120 mph balls with topspin have lost about 50% of their speed after hitting the ground.
76 mph balls with topspin have lost about 50% of their speed after hitting the ground.

skuludo
08-29-2006, 03:41 PM
There is no non slipping condition. It's not like anyone plays tennis in a vaccum.

There is still air resistance.

fx101
08-29-2006, 06:43 PM
Look, I study physics at Cornell and I can tell you that your understanding of basic physics, "BallControl Tennis" is insulting to the people in my field and fellow tennis players. Did you keep in mind that the de-acceleration of a shot after it is hit is enourmous due to the air resistance of the ball? And that only 20% of the ball's rotational velocity is transferred to energy in the forward motion of the ball? 30% of that energy is lost to friction and the remaining spin causes vertical speed causing the noticable kick in the ball. Saying that the ball's speed will double is a reckless assumption, one that even a 5th grader would scold you for. Your other posts, ball control, also mention double hitting (I've seen dozens of 10,000 fps videos, and trust me it doesn't happen). This is the truth, and I hope that newer players do not attempt to follow your erroneous advice. I just hope you will learn that offering differing ideas to gain attention is not admirable. Your ideas must be backed and tested for them to be accepted.

Ryoma
08-29-2006, 07:19 PM
what is double hitting?

fx101
08-29-2006, 07:23 PM
It is when the ball hits the racquet twice in one stroke. You've probably felt it when you frame the ball and you feel a ba-bump sound on your racquet.

ramseszerg
08-29-2006, 07:32 PM
Have you ever played tennis?

You think the right way to win groundstroke rallies against Nadal is to block the ball with a push motion and little follow through?!?!?!?!

WTF???

Second that. Listen.. BCT. When you do that the next thing you will see is Nadal drilling it down your throat. No not really, it will be away from your throat.. 20 feet away..

Ball Control Tennis
08-30-2006, 06:53 AM
Your other posts, ball control, also mention double hitting (I've seen dozens of 10,000 fps videos, and trust me it doesn't happen).

Only Federer can consistently achieve prolonged contact, which often results in double hitting. We suggest that you analyze Federerís forehand stroke, not just any playerís. However, we donít need the video because almost all our students (hundreds from 5-55 years old) can double hit. You can do it, too. Just hit a dropped ball with as little back swing as possible (minimum relative velocity between the ball and the racket) and with maximum acceleration. Federer accelerates at the precise moment of contact and, therefore, can achieve prolonged contact and demonstrate double hitting at high relative velocity.

The late Dr. Ta-You Wu, who coined the word "jumpulse" had the following question for all physicists:

"What is a jumpulse and what is its significance ?"

Few could answer pr think this question when he was alive and he was the most well-known Chinese scientist with two Nobel Prize students. Please let us know, if you find somebody who can. Thank you. [CYL] ###

Ryoma
08-30-2006, 08:21 AM
I think you mean try to hit the ball and have the ball stay on the string for as long as possible. It's pretty similar to tennis as a spring event posted somewhere else. But double hitting is pretty misleading. Catch and lift make much more sense to me.

deluxe
08-30-2006, 09:50 AM
Only Federer can consistently achieve prolonged contact, which often results in double hitting... However, we donít need the video... Federer accelerates at the precise moment of contact and, therefore, can achieve prolonged contact and demonstrate double hitting at high relative velocity.

So Federer and no other professional can do this "prolonged contact"/"double hitting". You have never talked to Federer, have had no input in his coaching and development, but without looking at video you can tell what is happening during the 1/250th of a second that the ball is in contact with Federer's strings. Although nobody here who has seen high speed video of Federer has ever seen a double hit apart from on a complete mishit, you maintain he "often" double hits on non-mishits.

Idiot.

mucat
08-30-2006, 10:53 AM
I sort of get what Ball Control Tennis is talking about. I have to generate a jumpulse field around the racket to hit the ball, then the ball will be traveling in between sub-space layer. The opponent will be having trouble tracking the ball because of the multiple dimension signature of the ball. In fact, theoretically, we can use the same technique on our footwork, use jumpulse to create a local jumpulse drive, warp factor of higher than 1 should be able to maintain as long as the jumpulse field doesn't collapse.

fx101
08-30-2006, 11:02 AM
It is complete ****. Look at Federer's backswing. There is a very noticable backswing, and thus when he hits the ball it *GULP* doesn't stay on the strings for more than a flash of time. That's it.