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View Full Version : 4.0 club tournament "skills" question


grizzly4life
08-29-2006, 10:35 AM
having a debate with a friend and hoping you guys can weigh in with your opinion.

my friend says at 4.0 level (and probably weaker 4.0 level), you can get away with fairly limited mobility, by playing a pusher game from slightly inside the baseline.

i'm sure you know the type. 60 year old guys who flick back every ball... i concurred that these guys do very well in doubles (usually their preferred game), but that they'll get beaten in singles.

i'm not talking someone who chases down lots of balls with pushing... but someone with limited mobility, few errors, good placement and hits most shots flat or with back/sidespin....

and i'm talking about reasonable 4.0 club tournament. not a regional where guys are sandbagging huge.

thanks in advance for any responses!!

grizzly4life
08-29-2006, 10:43 AM
re-read my original question.... and would change "good placement" to "decent placement"... usually good at dink shots, big part of the arsenal.

goober
08-29-2006, 10:50 AM
What is your question exactly? When you say they could get away with it does that mean they could win the tournament?

Somebody like the way you described would be lucky to get out of the first round of a regular 4.0 tournament. The player you described would probably be better suited to 3.5. If you have limited mobility you better have excellent placement not just decent.

grizzly4life
08-29-2006, 11:07 AM
goober, thanks....

my friend basically thinks it's no big problem (he's actually very mobile, he's just talking in general) at 4.0 level, suggesting that he thinks you could do very well (let's say SF's in 32 player tournament)... he thinks that players are so inconsistent at that level that an error occurs before mobility becomes an issue i.e. a good return of serve will get you home.

i agree with you that it's a huge drawback...... a little difficult to debate because i think standards are applied differently everywhere. i was probably thinking low-end 4.0 in hotbed like florida.

if you'd allow me two follow-up questions:

do people agree you can do fine in 4.0 doubles as described?

should 4.0's be able to put away points at net fairly easily? that's where frankly i see the biggest gap between players. lots of 4.0's and even stronger 3.5's are good at gaining the advantage in a point against a strong 4.0, but then the close-out of the point is a complete disaster.

thanks in advance for any more responses!

kevhen
08-29-2006, 11:21 AM
I had one of my strong 4.0 doubles players who has limited mobility play a strong 3.5 singles player and they ended up splitting sets 2-6, 6-4. Good, consistent, well-placed strokes with limited mobility will take you to a weak 4.0 level but the guys I lose to have both mobility and very good strokes and I am a strong 4.0 who gets to semis and finals of 4.0 tournaments. When I play this 4.0 doubles player in singles, I just move the ball around and make him run and beat him very easily like 6-2 or better and it would be worse for him if we played a second set. Mobility is very important in singles but you can still compete at a 4.0 level if you have great strokes. I have seen one guy like 300 pounds just hunker down on the center T and win 4.0 singles matches from there but he doesn't make errors and places the ball very well.

60 year old pushers do well at the 3.5 level but not so well at the 4.0 level where players can place the ball better and are more consistent too.

goober
08-29-2006, 11:24 AM
Well I suppose where you are playing and the level of competition is going to make difference in the answer. 4.0 tourney players here in the phoenix area that get to the SF or Finals are typically in very good shape with excellent mobility, in the 25-40 age range and are very consistent. The inconsistent players usually are out in the first round and definitely by the second round. There is a core group of tourney players around here of about 8-10 people who take tennis and winning seriously. I can't see any of these guys losing to somebody lke you mention.

Of course older players do very well in doubles at the 4.0 level.

MasterTS
08-29-2006, 11:26 AM
There's two things you're talking about and they are completely different.

1.) Pushers don't usually do well in doubles because net players will crush any balls that are 'pushed' to them

2.) Players that lack mobility (fat or bad fitness) may do better in doubles than singles if they can volley well. But volleying requires quick steps and adjustments, split steps, etc.. Afraid this is only doable at the low level of doubles.

grizzly4life
08-29-2006, 11:32 AM
thanks for all the responses.....

i guess it points out one problem. namely that ratings vary by locale. phoenix i'd assume is a tennis hotbed. i'm up north AND i think my club has inflated ratings in addition.

4.0 doubles where i live is pretty shaky and i don't think you need excellent footwork to do well. good footwork for sure.

thanks again!

tennis-n-sc
08-29-2006, 12:25 PM
Well, being a 60 y/o 3.5, I find these comments discriminatory!!LOL. Actually, I hold my own with all 4.0's in doubles but I seldom play singles with anyone over 6 years of age, so I would get killed in singles. However, I have a team mate that is also 60 and a 3.5 and regularly beats 4.0 singles players. He slices, dices, drives, drops, no spin, top spin, big serve, little serve and does whatever it takes to win. The best thing he does is think on his feet and find a weakness, which he then attacks. The exciting thing about tennis is that you can always get beat by somebody that shouldn't beat you. Generalizations can be hazardous to your winning percentages.

MasterTS
08-29-2006, 12:32 PM
When I play a tournament and I see the draw.. First thing I'm wondering is... 'Is this guy an old foogie.. oh god, I hope not'...

goober
08-29-2006, 12:35 PM
Actually, I hold my own with all 4.0's in doubles but I seldom play singles with anyone over 6 years of age, so I would get killed in singles. However, I have a team mate that is also 60 and a 3.5 and regularly beats 4.0 singles players.

Lol- yeah those 7 year olds are tough.

Haha I know it was a typo.


Uh if your 3.5 friend can beat 4.0s regularly in singles he is not a 3.5.

travlerajm
08-29-2006, 12:37 PM
Being a tennis hotbed doesn't necessarily make it tougher to play at a given NTRP level. For example, Southern California is a tennis hotbed. Because there are so many players, So Cal has 5.5 leagues and tourneys.

But a player who is rated 5.0 in Washington would be rated 5.5 in California, because there are no 5.5 leagues or tourneys in Washington. And it trickles down to every level below that, so a player who has a .500 record in SoCal 4.0s would have almost no chance against a solid 4.0 player from Washington State.

MasterTS
08-29-2006, 12:47 PM
But a player who is rated 5.0 in Washington would be rated 5.5 in California, because there are no 5.5 leagues or tourneys in Washington. And it trickles down to every level below that, so a player who has a .500 record in SoCal 4.0s would have almost no chance against a solid 4.0 player from Washington State.


Are you speaking of experience or just guessing, because I completely disagree. A player rated 5.0 in washington is probably going to get killed by a 4.5 in southern cali.. Competition here is very high.. I personally thinkg the top 4.5 in the USTA tournaments are actually 5.0's and 5.5s but they just cant complete with the players playing in 5.0s/5.5s.. and the 5.0s are really 5.5s but they can't complete with the players registered under 5.5s, and so on.. The result is lots of downplaying because of still competition.

I've been playing around 10-15 tournaments a year, and whenever a player registered in another state is in the draw.. I see the same results.. they get crushed 6-1, 6-0 or something like that.. The last time I played someone registered from Oregan, I killed him badly..

Basically to sum up.. if u play in another state and go to southern cali or florida to play some tennis.. prepare to get your *** whiped unless u move down a full NTRP level.

goober
08-29-2006, 12:48 PM
Being a tennis hotbed doesn't necessarily make it tougher to play at a given NTRP level. For example, Southern California is a tennis hotbed. Because there are so many players, So Cal has 5.5 leagues and tourneys.

But a player who is rated 5.0 in Washington would be rated 5.5 in California, because there are no 5.5 leagues or tourneys in Washington. And it trickles down to every level below that, so a player who has a .500 record in SoCal 4.0s would have almost no chance against a solid 4.0 player from Washington State.

By that train of logic, here in Arizona we have nothing above 4.5 for NTRP so a 4.0 should be like a 5.0 in SoCal? I think not...

Actually the reality is if your above 5.0 you will end up playing opens.

goober
08-29-2006, 12:48 PM
Being a tennis hotbed doesn't necessarily make it tougher to play at a given NTRP level. For example, Southern California is a tennis hotbed. Because there are so many players, So Cal has 5.5 leagues and tourneys.

But a player who is rated 5.0 in Washington would be rated 5.5 in California, because there are no 5.5 leagues or tourneys in Washington. And it trickles down to every level below that, so a player who has a .500 record in SoCal 4.0s would have almost no chance against a solid 4.0 player from Washington State.

By that train of logic, here in Arizona we have nothing above 4.5 for NTRP so a 4.0 should be like a 5.0 in SoCal? I think not...

Actually the reality is if your above 5.0 you will end up playing opens.

tennis-n-sc
08-30-2006, 03:27 PM
Lol- yeah those 7 year olds are tough.

Haha I know it was a typo.


Uh if your 3.5 friend can beat 4.0s regularly in singles he is not a 3.5.

I don't know how he hasn't been moved up. Surely he will be this year. He played in a league this spring and did well. If he isn't moved up, I gotta question the NTRP system.