PDA

View Full Version : Finally.. Videos of my serve.


ramseszerg
08-30-2006, 09:58 PM
First Serves
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DcNlzhzRc0

Second Serves
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua-lq9nfXt8

How do I get more racquet head speed? One problem I noticed when I viewed it frame by frame was my whole arm was not pointing directly up at contact.. it was pointing 20-30 degrees forward.

I've been focusing on the motion of my racquet arm recently as I got obsessed with pronating, winding up, etc. So please feel free to comment on that or anything else you notice. Thanks.

Ryan

MasterTS
08-30-2006, 10:05 PM
Several points...

First, too much slice, not enough spin.

Your 2nd serve toss needs to be more towards the left.. you're flat footed... not much racquet acceleration.. stay looser.. more explosion required.. more brushing of the ball

str33t
08-30-2006, 10:05 PM
it looks like you need more knee bend so you can explode into the ball more.

ZPTennis
08-30-2006, 10:20 PM
Your racquet needs to come back further behind your back so you have more of a loop.

w00gy
08-31-2006, 12:42 AM
it looks like all your servers are sailing long.. is that true?

emo5
08-31-2006, 02:41 AM
Several points...

First, too much slice, not enough spin.

Your 2nd serve toss needs to be more towards the left.. you're flat footed... not much racquet acceleration.. stay looser.. more explosion required.. more brushing of the ball
What did you mean by "too much slice not enough spin?"

Anyways, to ramseszerg, what are you trying to do on your first serve? Slice it or flat?
I can tell you what I know from learning the slice serve:
I used to do exactly what you do, but then after throwing the ball too much too the right I realised I was off balance. Believe me, 30 cm to your right is enough to get slice so it curves and even when it bounces.
One exception is the power. You definitely won't get as much power from a slice, kick or any spin serve as much as the flat serve. If you have the right technique your flat serves will be bullets!

Verbal_Kint
08-31-2006, 05:41 AM
Looks like you could get a lot more from your legs. Also, hit the ball at least half a foot higher.

vkartikv
08-31-2006, 06:11 AM
You look very depressed, you should probably get more pumped up and put more action into those serves. Could probably bend the knees a lot more.

travlerajm
08-31-2006, 06:21 AM
You are only using half an arm motion! You have no whip.

1) Bring the racquet up higher to the cocked position, with a higher elbow, when you bring it up as you toss the ball. This will give you some potential energy before you start the whip.

2) When you drop the racquet from the cocked postion, yank it down fast instead of letting gravity pull it down. This will do 2 things. First, it will help you bring the racquet head down lower so that you can aceelerate upward over a longer distance. Second, it will allow you to utilize the springiness in your shoulder muscles. Make sure you loosen up well by hitting some warm-up serves before incorporating the "yank down" into your motion.

ramseszerg
08-31-2006, 06:46 AM
Several points...

First, too much slice, not enough spin.



What did you mean by too much slice, not enough spin?

Your racquet needs to come back further behind your back so you have more of a loop.

Thank you! You made me realize the serve is just a semicircle loop with pronation, and it's all about how fast you can accelerate through it.

it looks like all your servers are sailing long.. is that true?

Ironically, all my first serves went in, and my last second serve sailed long. That's not my normal percentage though of course.

What did you mean by "too much slice not enough spin?"

Anyways, to ramseszerg, what are you trying to do on your first serve? Slice it or flat?
I can tell you what I know from learning the slice serve:
I used to do exactly what you do, but then after throwing the ball too much too the right I realised I was off balance. Believe me, 30 cm to your right is enough to get slice so it curves and even when it bounces.
One exception is the power. You definitely won't get as much power from a slice, kick or any spin serve as much as the flat serve. If you have the right technique your flat serves will be bullets!

I'm trying to do topspin slice so it has more margin of error. But it seems from what you guys are saying my toss is generally too much to the right. Thank you.

Looks like you could get a lot more from your legs. Also, hit the ball at least half a foot higher.

it looks like you need more knee bend so you can explode into the ball more.

This is gonna cause some timing issues since I've been working on my hitting arm alot, but I'll try. It also has to do with what I said about my hitting arm pointing forward. So if I explode into the court before hitting the ball I will eliminate that problem also.

You look very depressed, you should probably get more pumped up and put more action into those serves. Could probably bend the knees a lot more.

You know in my head when I'm hitting it there is already alot of action on that serve :(

You are only using half an arm motion! You have no whip.

1) Bring the racquet up higher to the cocked position, with a higher elbow, when you bring it up as you toss the ball. This will give you some potential energy before you start the whip.

2) When you drop the racquet from the cocked postion, yank it down fast instead of letting gravity pull it down. This will do 2 things. First, it will help you bring the racquet head down lower so that you can aceelerate upward over a longer distance. Second, it will allow you to utilize the springiness in your shoulder muscles. Make sure you loosen up well by hitting some warm-up serves before incorporating the "yank down" into your motion.

1) Cocked position = trophy position right? Okay, I'll try that, it makes sense.
2) Wow. I had no idea you were supposed to do this. No-one told me. I'm so excited to try this out.


Thanks everyone for helping, I have a good idea of where I'm going now. Don't stop though.. I would love to hear from BB and Jco.

JCo872
08-31-2006, 07:09 AM
What did you mean by too much slice, not enough spin?



Thank you! You made me realize the serve is just a semicircle loop with pronation, and it's all about how fast you can accelerate through it.



Ironically, all my first serves went in, and my last second serve sailed long. That's not my normal percentage though of course.



I'm trying to do topspin slice so it has more margin of error. But it seems from what you guys are saying my toss is generally too much to the right. Thank you.





This is gonna cause some timing issues since I've been working on my hitting arm alot, but I'll try. It also has to do with what I said about my hitting arm pointing forward. So if I explode into the court before hitting the ball I will eliminate that problem also.



You know in my head when I'm hitting it there is already alot of action on that serve :(



1) Cocked position = trophy position right? Okay, I'll try that, it makes sense.
2) Wow. I had no idea you were supposed to do this. No-one told me. I'm so excited to try this out.


Thanks everyone for helping, I have a good idea of where I'm going now. Don't stop though.. I would love to hear from BB and Jco.

ramseszerg,

Can you email me a video of the serve in quicktime or .avi? I can do a frame by frame comparison for you. You don't need more racket head speed. What you need is better pronation and a few adjustments in body positioning. I'll show you how to do it. You have a good base here. With some adjustments you will be able to hit your serve so much bigger.

Just from first glance though, I can see you are not getting into the "pole vaulters" position (BB term) that really describes the body coil big servers get. Power comes from coiling up the upper body and then uncoiling and turning this energy into pronation at the top of the hit. So you need to first get the pole vaulter/body coil position, and then transfer the uncoiling energy up into the arm and release it in the form of pronation. It's easier than it sounds, and when I get some video from you I can show you in a frame by frame comparison. My point is simlpy that "racket head speed" is not the answer. Power comes from coiling, uncoiling, and proper pronation, all done in a good sequence. It's about proper energy transfer and technique.

Let me know if you can get me some video I can use for a frame by frame comparison. I will give you three key reference points you can match in front of a mirror so you can really get this.
jco872@gmail.com


Jeff

Mike Cottrill
08-31-2006, 07:29 AM
I’m no expert, but you asked:
That depressed look that the above poster refers to is probably the best part of your serve. That is relaxed. Reminds me of the first time I saw Sampras serve many years ago. He looked very lethargic, but killed the ball. It was amazing. In my opinion, do not change that. Here goes my two cents of worthlessness on my part. If you adjust your toss, the rest will fall into place. It is to low which is why your arm is not extended at contact. I believe if you get your toss higher the rest will fall into place. Reach to the sky with your tossing arm (to the point that your arm is straight. Your toss arm appears (can’t see it completely) to have a good tuck at ball contact. That will take your serve a long way. You agree Jeff?

drakulie
08-31-2006, 07:33 AM
I only looked at your first serve. Looks to me like most of the energy in your swing is "after" contact. Try some practice serves without the ball and focus on the "swoosh" the racquet makes when you swing. Is the "swoosh" louder in front of you? If it is, this means most of your racquet head speed is not being utilized, because it is after contact.

Good serve by the way. Good luck.

JCo872
08-31-2006, 07:38 AM
I’m no expert, but you asked:
That depressed look that the above poster refers to is probably the best part of your serve. That is relaxed. Reminds me of the first time I saw Sampras serve many years ago. He looked very lethargic, but killed the ball. It was amazing. In my opinion, do not change that. Here goes my two cents of worthlessness on my part. If you adjust your toss, the rest will fall into place. It is to low which is why your arm is not extended at contact. I believe if you get your toss higher the rest will fall into place. Reach to the sky with your tossing arm (to the point that your arm is straight. Your toss arm appears (can’t see it completely) to have a good tuck at ball contact. That will take your serve a long way. You agree Jeff?

Absolutely. The relaxed, easy, calm way you start the serve is excellent. This is why I think you can really take your serve to a new level. You have a great relaxed "unhurried" start to the serve which is so important. As Mike said, think Pete :)

And yes, if get your tossing arm pointed straight up to the sky, this will automatically get your body more coiled. Then just stick your left hip into the court abit, drop the right shoulder down, and you will have the pole vaulter's position. The completely extended tossing arm (after releasing the ball) is imperative. Every big server does it every time.

And yes, it looks like the toss is too low. All I want to see now is a frame by frame of your pronation to see what is going on there.

Great points Mike.

Jeff

Ten_is
08-31-2006, 07:45 AM
^ I disagree.
He looks like he doesn't even want to be there to begin with. Yes, look relaxed.. but don't look relaxed when swinging and hitting the ball as well.

1 - bend your knees and toss the ball higher
2 - loop your raquet behind you to give you more raquet power and momentum when swinging back for the hit
3 - throw your hips forward and make sure your left arm is up and your right arm is down and then..
4 - rotate your shoulders for the power, and jump into the ball with your whole body.

Jumping from a bent position, jumping forward.. and rotating your shoulders will give you the power you need for your serves.

Oh and one more thing. After you practice your technique, the key is to snap your wrist at impact. Keep everything as loose as you can, and then snap at the end.

Andres
08-31-2006, 08:00 AM
First, too much slice, not enough spin.
That doesn't make any sense.
Too much slice = too much spin. As in SIDESPIN.

Mike Cottrill
08-31-2006, 08:43 AM
^ I disagree.
He looks like he doesn't even want to be there to begin with. Yes, look relaxed.. but don't look relaxed when swinging and hitting the ball as well.

1 - bend your knees and toss the ball higher
2 - loop your raquet behind you to give you more raquet power and momentum when swinging back for the hit
3 - throw your hips forward and make sure your left arm is up and your right arm is down and then..
4 - rotate your shoulders for the power, and jump into the ball with your whole body.

Jumping from a bent position, jumping forward.. and rotating your shoulders will give you the power you need for your serves.

Oh and one more thing. After you practice your technique, the key is to snap your wrist at impact. Keep everything as loose as you can, and then snap at the end.

Have you seen Caddyshack? Did you see the clip where the golf instructor was telling the guy to put his elbow hear and foot there until he looked so uncomfortable he looked like he was all twisted up like a pretzel. Your points are good, but information overload IMO. The correction in the toss will fix a lot of what you are referring.
“but don't look relaxed when swinging and hitting the ball as well” Yes, it is still an athletic motion. And it looks like he is performing an athletic motion. Years ago a scratch golfer I was practicing with told me to relax and not be stiff. So I relaxed and swung the club..it flew out of my hands and went about 20 yards. LOL. He told me be relaxed but it still is an athletic swing.

lolsmash
08-31-2006, 03:11 PM
^ I disagree.
He looks like he doesn't even want to be there to begin with. Yes, look relaxed.. but don't look relaxed when swinging and hitting the ball as well.

1 - bend your knees and toss the ball higher
2 - loop your raquet behind you to give you more raquet power and momentum when swinging back for the hit
3 - throw your hips forward and make sure your left arm is up and your right arm is down and then..
4 - rotate your shoulders for the power, and jump into the ball with your whole body.

Jumping from a bent position, jumping forward.. and rotating your shoulders will give you the power you need for your serves.

Oh and one more thing. After you practice your technique, the key is to snap your wrist at impact. Keep everything as loose as you can, and then snap at the end.



Oh my, he might try to wrist snap( i hate that term) on purpose, which will end up leading to elbow problems.

Try this, when you toss the ball, extend your arm straight up and lean your hips forward. This will automatically cause you to bend your knees. While moving your hips forward, bring your swinging arm so that your racquet is pointing up toward the sky(try to bring your arm back so that if we were looking at you serve from behind the baseline on your side, the racquet would be behind your head). Explode into the ball and if you are loose enough, your racquet will drop from the pointing up position into a backscratch postion and your hitting shoulder should come over your tossing shoulder as your tossing arm comes down and your hitting arm starts to come up. Right before you make contact, your forearm will automatically pronate(not wrist snap!).


For now though, just try tossing the ball, keeping your arm extended and your hitting arm pulled back so you are in the trophy position, and then getting the shoulder over the shoulder thing to happen. Everything will happen automatically.

Ten_is
08-31-2006, 03:19 PM
alright, maybe the wrist snap sounded bad.
But I think the thing that did it for me, is when I realized to bring my hips forward and keep loose just before I start dropping my tossing arm and rotate.

Great points. The one I especially like the most which I'm currently learning is how you should point the racket to the sky behind you. I usually dropped it down.

Speaking of critiques, since I can't post a new thread can everyone help me out with my serves?

Please keep in mind I havn't been playing since 15yrs of age. I'm 25 and just returning to the game. Just bought myself a new raquet (Head Flexpoint 102) which I don't think it's working compared to my older Wilson 95 Staff Series. I'm thinking of switching to Wilson nSix tour 95 but I've had this raquet for a month and paid $200CDN for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC07yhInPEo

Ten_is
08-31-2006, 03:22 PM
(Sorry. I have a Head Flexpoint Fire 102sq in.)
And omit the whole wrist snap. Thanks so much for your comment lolsmash.

lolsmash
08-31-2006, 05:59 PM
Erwin, it looks like you aren't using a continental grip on your serve. It looks like an eastern forehand grip. Also, you look like you are concentrating on swinging your arm quickly on your serve instead of using your legs and hips to create a fast swing. Keep your arm loose. IMO, you're supposed to use your legs to propel your shoulder rotation which will produce the arm action on the serve.

MasterTS
08-31-2006, 06:07 PM
That doesn't make any sense.
Too much slice = too much spin. As in SIDESPIN.

No it does make sense but you're argentine so maybe you can't read through the lines. So i'll be specific and say it word for word.

I was refering to his motion as in he was tryin to slice the ball too much, and as a result there is not enough of the right spin... which is topspin/kick/twist. Look at his toss and it tells all. He should be kicking/twisting the ball since this is a second serve and will get more net clearance too. Either way theres not nearly enough spin ..

So in laymens term (laymen means simple terms), I was commenting that his motion shouldn't be a slicing motion, it should be a topspin motion, and he needs more spin regardless.

Ten_is
08-31-2006, 06:10 PM
What's the difference between continental and eastern forhand? any links?

I think I worry about my raquet after my toss. You're right on the grip part. I think the toss is supposed to go over my head? is this correct?
Like over my head and forward more? I notice Sampras was amazing at technique. I don't like Roddick's serve as much personally, but his toss is really nice and fluent. Any other opinions? again.. sorry I'm a new user so there's no new topic for me for a bit here I guess..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC07yhInPEo

ramseszerg
09-01-2006, 06:23 AM
I wish the grip guide on tennis.com was still available. That was the best.

Hold your racquet vertically. Notice there are a total of 8 bevels on the grip. Use your index knuckle as your reference point. When it is on the top bevel, that is the Eastern backhand grip. Some people use this grip for kick serves. Go clockwise one bevel and that is your continental. One more and that's the Eastern forehand grip. You won't get far using a forehand grip.

ramseszerg
09-01-2006, 10:00 AM
ramseszerg,

Can you email me a video of the serve in quicktime or .avi? I can do a frame by frame comparison for you. You don't need more racket head speed. What you need is better pronation and a few adjustments in body positioning. I'll show you how to do it. You have a good base here. With some adjustments you will be able to hit your serve so much bigger.

Just from first glance though, I can see you are not getting into the "pole vaulters" position (BB term) that really describes the body coil big servers get. Power comes from coiling up the upper body and then uncoiling and turning this energy into pronation at the top of the hit. So you need to first get the pole vaulter/body coil position, and then transfer the uncoiling energy up into the arm and release it in the form of pronation. It's easier than it sounds, and when I get some video from you I can show you in a frame by frame comparison. My point is simlpy that "racket head speed" is not the answer. Power comes from coiling, uncoiling, and proper pronation, all done in a good sequence. It's about proper energy transfer and technique.

Let me know if you can get me some video I can use for a frame by frame comparison. I will give you three key reference points you can match in front of a mirror so you can really get this.
jco872@gmail.com


Jeff

I can't email the file, the mpg is 50 megs and the avi is 221 megs. So I gotta upload it for you, but I don't know which hosting site to use. Any ideas?

Andres
09-01-2006, 12:12 PM
No it does make sense but you're argentine so maybe you can't read through the lines. So i'll be specific and say it word for word.

I was refering to his motion as in he was tryin to slice the ball too much, and as a result there is not enough of the right spin... which is topspin/kick/twist. Look at his toss and it tells all. He should be kicking/twisting the ball since this is a second serve and will get more net clearance too. Either way theres not nearly enough spin ..

So in laymens term (laymen means simple terms), I was commenting that his motion shouldn't be a slicing motion, it should be a topspin motion, and he needs more spin regardless.
I understood what you meant, but I'll use every chance I haver to make fun of you. ;)

drakulie
09-01-2006, 04:01 PM
What's the difference between continental and eastern forhand? any links?

I think I worry about my raquet after my toss. You're right on the grip part. I think the toss is supposed to go over my head? is this correct?
Like over my head and forward more? I notice Sampras was amazing at technique. I don't like Roddick's serve as much personally, but his toss is really nice and fluent. Any other opinions? again.. sorry I'm a new user so there's no new topic for me for a bit here I guess..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC07yhInPEo

Erwin, just my thoughts....
1. Your right shoulder is not dipping down on the take bake and toss. You shoulders should look like this: /, not like this----. Notice Sampras' shoulders here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/SA.jpg

2. Your feet, and legs need to be more stable. You are trying to jump, which results in an unbalanced swing. Do not purposely jump. It happens naturally through the force of your body uncoiling and swinging the racquet up towards the ball. Notice here how my feet in the third picture leave the ground. Not because I am purposely jumping, rather because of the upwards force of the swing and my body uncoling up into the ball.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/776c670b.jpg


Hope this helps, and Good luck with your game.

ramseszerg
09-01-2006, 05:17 PM
Can anyone recommend a good file hosting site?

patrick922
09-01-2006, 08:21 PM
by not looking at what the other people wrote, i would say 70% of them mentioned that you need to bend your knees. and it looks like you are hitting all your serves out, you know that you need to get it in behind the service like, it looks like you are trying to aim for the baseline[which is out btw]

JCo872
09-01-2006, 08:24 PM
I can't email the file, the mpg is 50 megs and the avi is 221 megs. So I gotta upload it for you, but I don't know which hosting site to use. Any ideas?

Actually if you can get it on Google Videos I can then go through it frame by frame.

ramseszerg
09-01-2006, 08:39 PM
by not looking at what the other people wrote, i would say 70% of them mentioned that you need to bend your knees. and it looks like you are hitting all your serves out, you know that you need to get it in behind the service like, it looks like you are trying to aim for the baseline[which is out btw]

I would say that you are not being very helpful :(

6 or 7 out of 8 serves went in.

ramseszerg
09-01-2006, 08:55 PM
Here you go Jeff
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-9030152485119433593&hl=en-CA

skuludo
09-01-2006, 09:19 PM
You are not hitting through the ball enough. Does your smash go as slow as your serve?

ramseszerg
09-01-2006, 09:38 PM
You are not hitting through the ball enough. Does your smash go as slow as your serve?

Yes. It goes even slower actually, hit with a shorter grip. If you think about it, this may be the weakest part of my game. Aside from the one hander I recently switched to. Which makes me think that there is something seriously wrong with my overhead and serve technique when really the motion is not that far off.

Just to let everyone know I went out to try two adjustments (the pole vaulter and the yank down) and I had a very bad serving day.

skuludo
09-01-2006, 10:10 PM
I had a good serving day.

I have found the major flaw in your serve. You are not hitting at full arm extension.

JCo872
09-02-2006, 04:44 AM
Here you go Jeff
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-9030152485119433593&hl=en-CA

Perfect. I can go through this one frame by frame. I see that your contact point is way too low. I'll get you some frame by frame comparisons to the pros shortly...

JCo872
09-02-2006, 05:29 AM
Here you go. Part 1:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/account/ramseszerg/mystrokes.php

Jeff

ramseszerg
09-04-2006, 03:38 PM
Thank you Jeff!

I just moved into res. McMaster University has recently removed its tennis courts for parking space and lecture halls.. T.,T

Anyway thanks for your trouble and I'm looking forward to the second part.

BadTemper
09-04-2006, 03:55 PM
put a brick in your purse

cmanxx
09-04-2006, 06:27 PM
is it possible one reason why beginners tend to not drop the racquet behind their back as much as they should (myself included) because when you watch the pros on TV, you really can't see this part of the motion it's so fast and TV is only about 20 frames per second. At best you can catch it for a frame.

Ten_is
09-05-2006, 11:02 PM
Wow thanks alot Drakulie! that was Great help! I started a thread here:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=117349

The continental grip helped even though I'm getting used to it and working on my motion toss. Much improvement. I thought you jump into the ball as to hit it as high as possible and down through the jump. Makes a big difference although I'm still noticing some old habits. Thanks for the comments and help, please post replies here: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=117349

Thanks! Erwin

Say Chi Sin Lo
09-05-2006, 11:17 PM
can i ask what grip you're using? It seems like a semi-western (you're gripping it like a frying pan). If that is the case, totally wrong. Serves are always served with a continental grip, better results come from an eastern grip (backhand grip)

Your toss is too far to your racquet hand, like Dementiava's ugly serve. Your toss should be at where your head is at, toss it behind you if you want to put spin on it.

Then you have to bend your knees. Also turn your back on your opponent. It'll do you wonders.

Right from that video, nearly every aspect of your serve is wrong. You should get advice from a teaching pro, watching/reading wont help as much

Pancho G
09-05-2006, 11:24 PM
Re: Your first serve. You need to put more arm into it by using more rotation. Picture a machine that needed to get a lot of force behind it before it hammered an industrial sized nail in a board. There would be much more power from the "arm."

SoBad
09-05-2006, 11:30 PM
Dude the fundamental elements look good I think, I'd just do a little MORE with each fundamental and your serve will be really good! Like toss a little higher, bend knees a little more, take racquet back a little further, swing a little faster, fully extending arm. I think if you keep practicing this same serve trying to do a little more each time, it will get real good!!

ramseszerg
09-12-2006, 01:38 PM
I'm confused as to who's talking to erwin and who's talking to me. Could you just clarify and problem solved. Obviously Say is talking to erwin.. how bout you guys?

ramseszerg
09-12-2006, 01:40 PM
Oh Jeff I would really appreciate that part 2 now :(