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coolblue123
09-08-2006, 06:35 AM
Hi there 2 quick questions:

I want to learn how to hit a Double Bend Forehand. Is there a good website which has some video's on how to do this?

Also, if there's a Double Bend FH, could their be a Double Bend Backhand as well?

Thanks for responding

mdhubert
09-08-2006, 02:48 PM
www.tennisplayer.net
there is no double-bend BH because the double-bend is supposed to create support at contact, on BH you need a straight arm at contact or both arms on 2HBH (enough resistance at contact on both case).

JCo872
09-08-2006, 08:21 PM
Hi there 2 quick questions:

I want to learn how to hit a Double Bend Forehand. Is there a good website which has some video's on how to do this?

Also, if there's a Double Bend FH, could their be a Double Bend Backhand as well?

Thanks for responding

I explain the double bend in-depth on my site: http://www.hi-techtennis.com. Here is a preview:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/topspin.php

Jeff

Tennismastery
09-09-2006, 07:39 AM
I explain the double bend in-depth on my site: http://www.hi-techtennis.com. Here is a preview:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/topspin.php

Jeff

Jeff, Great video clips! Thought I would offer this newsletter I did a while back on the double bend for TennisOne to compliment your excellent info.

http://www.tennisone.com/newsletter/template/5.1.06.newsletter.html

Hope it also helps.

Dave

JCo872
09-09-2006, 08:29 AM
Jeff, Great video clips! Thought I offer this newsletter I did a while back on the double bend for TennisOne.

http://www.tennisone.com/newsletter/template/5.1.06.newsletter.html

Hope it also helps.

Dave

Wow. That is fantastic Dave! I read your article before, but I hadn't seen this newsletter. That is exactly what I talk about..."maintaining the integrity of the double bend" You are absolutely right. People feel they have to "break out" of the double bend by snapping or rolling their wrist too early and thus destroying the integrity of the double bend. The release comes after driving through the ball.

For anyone reading this thread, check out Dave's newsletter on the double bend. It's pure gold.

Jeff

limitup
09-09-2006, 09:20 AM
I'm just a newbie so I'm not agruing either way, but it almost seems as if there would be more support if the arm was practically straight - for example the way Federer hits 99% of his shots.

With the wrist laid back, at contact the force of the ball hitting the strings can't move the wrist because there is nowhere for it to go. Why not apply the same principle to the elbow? How does a bent elbow provide more support than a straight arm? If anything it seems a straight arm would provide more support and stability.

Personally I find I'm more consistent with a straighter arm, and laid back wrist.

JohnYandell
09-09-2006, 10:32 PM
Hey Dave,

Great concept, now I wonder, where did that term originate? Good to see it's passed into the lexicon, but a little acknowledgement of the source wouldn't hurt.

John

Lsmkenpo
09-09-2006, 11:35 PM
I'm just a newbie so I'm not agruing either way, but it almost seems as if there would be more support if the arm was practically straight - for example the way Federer hits 99% of his shots.

With the wrist laid back, at contact the force of the ball hitting the strings can't move the wrist because there is nowhere for it to go. Why not apply the same principle to the elbow? How does a bent elbow provide more support than a straight arm? If anything it seems a straight arm would provide more support and stability.

Personally I find I'm more consistent with a straighter arm, and laid back wrist.


As the elbow moves farther away from the body you lose leverage and control.
Have someone grab your wrist and try to pull free like you were taking a swing, with your arm straight. Now try the same moition with your elbow tucked tight to your body. Bent elbow has alot more power and control.

limitup
09-10-2006, 12:15 AM
In your example I think that is only true if you focus on rotating your shoulder and pulling across your body. This is not what should be happening before and at contact, so I'm not sure that explains it.

Lsmkenpo
09-10-2006, 01:57 AM
In your example I think that is only true if you focus on rotating your shoulder and pulling across your body. This is not what should be happening before and at contact, so I'm not sure that explains it.

Oh, I guess you just want to swing with all arm than.:rolleyes:

Tennismastery
09-10-2006, 06:37 AM
Hey Dave,

Great concept, now I wonder, where did that term originate? Good to see it's passed into the lexicon, but a little acknowledgement of the source wouldn't hurt.

John

Hi John,

Which term or concept are you referring to? If there is something that I presented that can be identified as something completely original (and documented) by someone else, I will be very happy to acknowledge it's original source. Everything that I have learned is a culmination of my 33 years of teaching and learning...from people like you, as well as my father, as well as those who I learn from at conventions and my own students.

I have always tried to acknowledge any conceptual idea that is-or has been-origniated by someone else. It would be quite impossible for you or me or any legitimate teaching professional to quote every single source of our knowledge in every specific situation...especially in such a loose forum as this.

But, that is not to say that I would be very happy to acknowledge you or anyone else here when and where appropriate. If someone used my 'key phrases' that I coined in my book, such as 'keep the plane the same' and 'hit and hold' and others, such phrases are so simple and inert that I don't think I would expect anyone to acknowledge my book or articles where I have introduced such phrases over the last 8 years. (And, I have to believe that there were others before me that may have used such phrases in their teaching ....that just were never published prior to my use of such verbiage.)

Anyway, let me know if there is something I mentioned that was previously introduced. I have to think that similar minds will probably use similar terminology. Such is probably the case as I usually write y articles and speak at conventions in an 'off the cuff' manner that is built around all that I have learned.

Capish?

JCo872
09-10-2006, 06:44 AM
Hi John,

Which term or concept are you referring to? If there is something that I presented that can be identified as something completely original (and documented) by someone else, I will be very happy to acknowledge it's original source. Everything that I have learned is a culmination of my 33 years of teaching and learning...from people like you, as well as my father, as well as those who I learn from at conventions and my own students.

I have always tried to acknowledge any conceptual idea that is-or has been-origniated by someone else. It would be quite impossible for you or me or any legitimate teaching professional to quote every single source of our knowledge in every specific situation...especially in such a loose forum as this.

But, that is not to say that I would be very happy to acknowledge you or anyone else here when and where appropriate. If someone used my 'key phrases' that I coined in my book, such as 'keep the plane the same' and 'hit and hold' and others, such phrases are so simple and inert that I don't think I would expect anyone to acknowledge my book or articles where I have introduced such phrases over the last 8 years. (And, I have to believe that there were others before me that may have used such phrases in their teaching ....that just were never published prior to my use of such verbiage.)

Anyway, let me know if there is something I mentioned that was previously introduced. I have to think that similar minds will probably use similar terminology. Such is probably the case as I usually write y articles and speak at conventions in an 'off the cuff' manner that is built around all that I have learned.

Capish?

The first time I ever heard of the double bend was in John's article, called "The Myth of the Wrist: The Modern Pro Forehand", which was published on TennisOne several years ago. John writes:

"We refer to this position-elbow in and wrist laid back-the double bend or "power palm" position. It enables the player to use the palm of his hand to push the racket forward and upward generating power and spin."

I had never heard of this concept before reading the article, and I attribute the description and concept 100% to John.

After John identified this key component to the forehand, I realized that the goal of tennis instructors was to understand it and teach it, which is a challenge in and of itself. Tennismastery did a very fine job of doing this in his newsletter. But as far as I know, the term originated with John's study of high-speed video, and I have always attributed the concept to his article, The Myth of the Wrist. I had never heard of this position before, anywhere, any time, and I had read and studied pretty much everything out there.

Ever since John wrote "The Myth of the Wrist" article, I have used it as a kind of "bible" of forehand instruction. I regard that article as the seminal article on modern forehand technique. He shows how Haas and Agassi both keep their wrists back through contact as they push and lift through the ball. He also shows how you can rotate the entire structure while keeping the hand back. The price of membership to tenniplayer.net is worth that one article alone, in my opinion.

So to conclude, it seems clear to me that John invented the term. The term is so good and so important, in fact, that it has slipped into common tennis terminology. I applaud anyone that furthers our concept of this term, with full recognition that it all started with "The Myth of the Wrist".

Tennismastery
09-10-2006, 08:28 AM
The first time I ever heard of the double bend was in John's article, called "The Myth of the Wrist: The Modern Pro Forehand", which was published on TennisOne several years ago. John writes:

"We refer to this position-elbow in and wrist laid back-the double bend or "power palm" position. It enables the player to use the palm of his hand to push the racket forward and upward generating power and spin."

I had never heard of this concept before reading the article, and I attribute the description and concept 100% to John.

After John identified this key component to the forehand, I realized that the goal of tennis instructors was to understand it and teach it, which is a challenge in and of itself. Tennismastery did a very fine job of doing this in his newsletter. But as far as I know, the term originated with John's study of high-speed video, and I have always attributed the concept to his article, The Myth of the Wrist. I had never heard of this position before, anywhere, any time, and I had read and studied pretty much everything out there.

Ever since John wrote "The Myth of the Wrist" article, I have used it as a kind of "bible" of forehand instruction. I regard that article as the seminal article on modern forehand technique. He shows how Haas and Agassi both keep their wrists back through contact as they push and lift through the ball. He also shows how you can rotate the entire structure while keeping the hand back. The price of membership to tenniplayer.net is worth that one article alone, in my opinion.

So to conclude, it seems clear to me that John invented the term. The term is so good and so important, in fact, that it has slipped into common tennis terminology. I applaud anyone that furthers our concept of this term, with full recognition that it all started with "The Myth of the Wrist".

As with so many terms in our vernacular, a term such as the 'double bend' can quickly lose its originator. I wholeheartily agree that John is most likely the first to identify as well as term the 'double bend forehand' but I could not be certain. And, since he is one of the guys I like to refer to as one of the real 'teachers' of our game, I think his input in so many aspects of the game can be called inovative...or at least, responsible, to the point that many of today's teachers can look up to him and his contributions...not just this one phrase.

I honestly didn't know if John was referring to something in my article or just the 'double bend' identification. Someone else started this thread using the 'double bend' terminology...I was just expanding on the description of it in my article. And, since so many have used this phrase in recent time, (just as the phrase 'modern forehand' might have been originated by Brett Hobden for all I know!) I could not know for sure that John was the originator of the phrase 'double bend forehand'...thus not wanting to misinform something I was not sure of.

John, I would be the last person to not recognize you for your contributions...whether they be simple terminology or a full-concept revelation!

Dave

JohnYandell
09-10-2006, 11:46 PM
I actually came up with that term for my first book about 15 years ago. I had to invent it because in all my research no one was talking about the shape of the hitting arms. I remember puzzling over how to describe the postion of the elbow and the wrist on the forehand.

The term was also in the article Jeff mentions--plus a couple before that on Tennisone. I did read the newsletter with your extended discussion of it, but no mention of the origin. Not a big deal, really. You must have liked it and picked it up and incorporated it--so that's a good thing.

See you in Vegas?

Roforot
09-11-2006, 05:55 AM
Very useful thread. I had never heard of this term before.
Thankyou for that link to the newsletter.
It clicked w/ me why my FH is sometimes so good but then once in a while feels inconsistent. When nervous or in a funk I've broken that bend, especially when hitting a hard flat ball or down the line. That video of Dave rolling the arm feels like what I do, trying to overmuscle the ball. I'm glad I'm hitting today so I can look at this.

Tennismastery
09-11-2006, 08:15 AM
I actually came up with that term for my first book about 15 years ago. I had to invent it because in all my research no one was talking about the shape of the hitting arms. I remember puzzling over how to describe the postion of the elbow and the wrist on the forehand.

The term was also in the article Jeff mentions--plus a couple before that on Tennisone. I did read the newsletter with your extended discussion of it, but no mention of the origin. Not a big deal, really. You must have liked it and picked it up and incorporated it--so that's a good thing.

See you in Vegas?

I was really uncertain as to the orgin of the term. I know I had read your book as well as seeing it in some article way back when...but, as with so much of our information, didn't connect its beginnings with you! My humblest apologies! I know you are not concerned with the recognition of it, however, too often in our industry, we take things a bit for granted and even try to assume some ownership of certain concepts, in some cases. I am proud to use your information and will always try to offer some recognition whenever I use it.

I will be in Vega for the first three days, I believe. Since I have taken over as General Manager of our club, my schedule has been whacked out. I will hunt you down when I'm there.

Mike Cottrill
09-11-2006, 08:34 AM
Dave, Jeff, John, Great stuff. Can you share why this does not work for the two handed backhand?
Thanks
Mike

Trinity TC
09-11-2006, 11:09 AM
Ah-ha! I can add "double bend" to my vocabulary. That will make it easier to teach. I learned a similar concept back in the 70s. My coach (coached by Ashley Cooper's brother, John...but I digress) said that "you Canadians don't know how to hit a big forehand." He had me do the double bend on the backswing which helped consistently set up the racquet head in the proper hitting position as I was drawing it back. It also helped facilitate a smooth angular and linear momentum conversion which improved my timing, consistency and power on the forehand.

It has worked with all of my students whether they have old school grips or the radical modern grips on their forehands.

Fatmike
09-11-2006, 11:20 AM
Jeff, Great video clips! Thought I would offer this newsletter I did a while back on the double bend for TennisOne to compliment your excellent info.

http://www.tennisone.com/newsletter/template/5.1.06.newsletter.html

Hope it also helps.

Dave

awsome....

I often do the thing that you explain as being the "wrong thing to do"

damn....

but hey, seeing this shoed me what I need to do to correct it.

Thanks

Roforot
09-11-2006, 02:33 PM
www.tennisplayer.net
there is no double-bend BH because the double-bend is supposed to create support at contact, on BH you need a straight arm at contact or both arms on 2HBH (enough resistance at contact on both case).

If the 2h-BH is a a "lefty" FH choked up (w/ right hand there for a ride), then shouldn't one hit it the same way w/ a bend in both arms?
If not what would be an analagous checkpoint to look at to verify one is swinging rather than muscling the stroke?

Tennismastery
09-11-2006, 05:11 PM
If the 2h-BH is a a "lefty" FH choked up (w/ right hand there for a ride), then shouldn't one hit it the same way w/ a bend in both arms?
If not what would be an analagous checkpoint to look at to verify one is swinging rather than muscling the stroke?

If you look at many two handed backhands, you will indeed the double bend of the non-dominant arm in many pro backhands. It is not as prominant because of the use of the dominant hand and arm in the stroke but it is often seen.

Mike Cottrill
09-11-2006, 06:20 PM
If you look at many two handed backhands, you will indeed the double bend of the non-dominant arm in many pro backhands. It is not as prominant because of the use of the dominant hand and arm in the stroke but it is often seen.




Thanks TM,
That is what I was looking for. I did not see anyone say anything to that earlier post about it not applying to 2hbh.
BTW, your links were broken, so here are you photos’ with fixed links
http://www.tennisone.com/content/prostrokes/lindsay/net/lindsayb.jpghttp://www.tennisone.com/club/prostrokes/sharapova/backhand/sharapovabh.jpg

Tennismastery
09-11-2006, 06:26 PM
Thanks Mike for fixing those! I was wondering why they didn't show up!

Anyway, I think these pictures depict the double bend of the off-hand and arm in the two-handed backhand.

Thanks again!

Mike Cottrill
09-11-2006, 06:30 PM
Thanks Mike for fixing those! I was wondering why they didn't show up!

Anyway, I think these pictures depict the double bend of the off-hand and arm in the two-handed backhand.

Thanks again!

Your links had an extra http at the begining.
Do you find this more on the women's side? If so, andy reason why?
Thanks for you input.
Mike

JohnYandell
09-11-2006, 06:42 PM
The double bend is part of the two-handed configuration when the rear arm is more dominant. Most women use this as do some men, for example, Davydanko who has a great backhand. It is in many ways analogous to the forehand.

There are actually 4 different possible (effective) combinations of hitting arm positions. In the others the back arm is straight or at least straighter at contact.

mdhubert
09-12-2006, 03:56 AM
In the others the back arm is straight or at least straighter at contact.
So I was not totally wrong on the 2HBH, thanks John. Anyway I'm a one-hander...

FitzRoy
09-12-2006, 11:34 AM
JCo872 - Good site, I've been signed up for just about a month now. Good videos, good information. I've found it very helpful in working on my strokes. I' had a question for you on the Double Bend Forehand.

In your lessons you maintain that it's crucial to keep the elbow locked as soon as the forehand begins to move foreward from the take back position. I've noticed that different pros use different angles of bend from one another. With only a few videos of each pro, it's hard for me to tell for sure if each pro has his/her own particular angle of bend, and they adjust the rest of their stroke to hit the ball at different heights, or if each pro will use a variety of elbow angles. For example, Safin doesn't have a huge amount of bend in his elbow in the vids on your site - is this because he always hits with that angle, or does he vary the angle (when going into the takeback) based on the shot?

My reason for asking this is that it's somewhat easier to contact a low ball when bending the elbow less, while a higher ball is more comfortable with more of a bend. Should I instead always try to use the same elbow bend, and adjust to the different heights by using different shoulder position, knee bend, etc.?

JCo872
09-12-2006, 12:47 PM
JCo872 - Good site, I've been signed up for just about a month now. Good videos, good information. I've found it very helpful in working on my strokes. I' had a question for you on the Double Bend Forehand.

In your lessons you maintain that it's crucial to keep the elbow locked as soon as the forehand begins to move foreward from the take back position. I've noticed that different pros use different angles of bend from one another. With only a few videos of each pro, it's hard for me to tell for sure if each pro has his/her own particular angle of bend, and they adjust the rest of their stroke to hit the ball at different heights, or if each pro will use a variety of elbow angles. For example, Safin doesn't have a huge amount of bend in his elbow in the vids on your site - is this because he always hits with that angle, or does he vary the angle (when going into the takeback) based on the shot?

My reason for asking this is that it's somewhat easier to contact a low ball when bending the elbow less, while a higher ball is more comfortable with more of a bend. Should I instead always try to use the same elbow bend, and adjust to the different heights by using different shoulder position, knee bend, etc.?

Great question! From all the video I have studied, a player has one elbow angle that is intact on all their shots. I don't see any change in that angle after a player locks in and starts pulling to the ball. One exception is possibly Federer who seems to be able to use a straighter arm on some balls, and more of a bend on others. But in general, a player's elbow angle is really an ingrained part of the stroke, present on every ball.

If you study all the Ginepri videos, for example, you will see he has a pretty big bend in the elbow and it's the same on high balls and low balls. Nadal, on the other hand, has almost a completely straight arm on his forehand, and it is present no matter where the ball is.
Safin, like you mentioned has a straighter arm as well, and in all the videos I have studied that angle is consistent across shots.

So based on all the video I have studied, I say to lock into one elbow angle, and adjust to different balls by getting your body in the right position every time by getting closer or farther away from the ball, depending on the double bend angle that characterizes your shot.

Glad you are enjoying the site!

Jeff