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View Full Version : Polotics, an 18 yr. old view point


Lee James
08-02-2004, 06:21 PM
I'm sure not many people really care what I think about polotics, but after reading a thread on democrats it inspired me to give my own incite. Personally I agree that it's important to vote, although it really feels meaningless inside. Honestly how many poloticians actually seem to care about my age group? As far as I can remember, only Bill Clinton actually made an attempt to reach out to the youth as was seen from his appearance on mtv. Although I'm flip flopping about my polotical stance, I'm beginning to see myself as an independent because I can't really get behind The democrats or the republicans. The democrats idea of sharing your wealth scares me because I don't feel that I should have to give what I've worked hard to gain to someone who hasn't worked a day in there life, and I don't agree with the gung ho attitude of the republican party when it comes to war. It seems like anyone who shows an anti war sentiment is considered unpatriotic...blaza blaza blah... Just because I'd like to have a future in something other than gun blasting and eventually ending up in a vet hospital I get labeled as a bad american. It seems like the people who scream this the most are the ones who are too old to get sent to war if a draft were to ever take place anyway. I also dislike the way the conventions are held. Everything is too rehearsed and comes across to me as being unsincere because I don't really trust them when they make bold predictions and promises. I don't want to trust america to some 60 yr. old tight you know what. I think that most people my age feel the same way about voting. I think it's safe to say that most people in america are not corp execs, or trial lawyers, but somehow those are the people who end up representing us??? Maybe as I get older things will make more sense to me, but as of right now, I have no faith in our current gov't, and or the one we may be putting in office this fall....

On a lighter note though, I am looking forward to hopefully having Barack Obama run for president some day. I really enjoyed his message at the DNC and just get a sincere feeling about him.

David Pavlich
08-02-2004, 07:54 PM
It's not often that 18 year old guys have much to say about politics. You need to be aware of at least the major issues confronting us.

I agree with your assessment of conventions. It wasn't that many years ago that the conventions held surprises. Now it's nothing more than a very, very expensive pep rally.

You might want to consider giving up that independent thing and take a stance. Sort out your values and concerns and find where you come down on the issues and decide. I'm pretty much Libertarian in my views, however in this election, I'll vote for Bush only because sKerry has linguini for a spine.

I don't agree with all that Bush stands for, but the terror thing is THE most important issue. If it goes badly, then all the hand wringing about jobs, the environment, gay marriage, education and so on goes out the window.

One additional reason to vote for Bush: It has been revealed that part of Bush's second term agenda is to eliminate the IRS and go to a national retail sales tax (the Fair Tax bill already in Congress). That would mean that the Congress critters wouldn't have the tax code to reward or punish the proletariat...and that's a good thing!

David

thejerk
08-02-2004, 08:52 PM
Just remember that when these politicians promise to give you money that isn't theirs, they are going to take it from somebody. Just because something sounds nice doesn't make it so. Unintended circumstances can really suck. When I was 18 I was a flaming liberal, Churchhill said that if you aren't a liberal when you are young then you have no heart, and if you are not a conservative when you get older then you have no brains.
The radical Islamic ideology has been around for years. When I got married my wife was living in New York, one of her friends offered me a job and I told him "no way, because this is the biggest target in the world." I told him that in 1999. You don't get all yahoo about going to war until it is certain you are, and then you get all yahoo just to show your enemies
resolve. Getting all gungho is more about the face you show the enemy than about what you feel. The quicker you win a war the less lives lost on both sides. Obama sounded like a republican trying to temper his message because he lives in a democratic district. He isn't corrupted yet, just wait. The pretending he is doing will make him jaded and he will end up a shister just like the rest of the I'll buy your vote party. Unless he changes sides then he will have to tell his constituents that he and only he can take care of them and get them money. In his mind he can't possibly respect his constituents, how can he if they are living off the scraps of the "rich" and not their own sweat.
Do you think Kerry's wife is going to let him tax her. The hollow ring of the filthy rich whining about tax cuts for the rich is almost deafening.

jun
08-02-2004, 09:13 PM
I think voting is important. If everyone says that "oh my ONE vote will not make difference", then it's going to add up to thousands and thousands of votes. So I think you should voice your opinion.

Although I didn't really read your post thoroughly, i think you should consider your thoughs on evenly distributed wealth.

While there are people who can make 6,7 figures a year without too much work (maybe due to difficulty of their tasks or whatever), there are people who barely make 20,000 a year while working their butts off. Best example is teachers, they work very hard by teaching, dealing, being guidance to students. No one will argue that teachers are very important to society. But they don't get paid very well....

I won't go on much about this subject, but hopefully you get what I mean...

By the way, I am not a teacher.....

bigserving
08-02-2004, 09:46 PM
Lee I commend you on being politically curious. It is a good thing and I think that it is very important. Your current political stance however, is not at all uncommon.

Lots of Rush Limbaugh type people like to throw around the terms "Liberal" as an insult, and "conservative" as some sort of badge of honor. Personally, I find it petty, ignorant name calling. Challenge any of these people to define either term. If anyone actually gives you an answer, you will find tons of exceptions to their definition. I guarantee that. Almost half of Republicans are pro-choice. Most Democrats are fiscally conservative. People on both side of the aisle cast crossover votes on many issues. That has always been the norm.

The reality of the country is that most people are not on the left or the right, but in the middle. You can throw a normal bell-shaped curve over the US political population, most people are in the middle.

All of us have our own personal preferences of how the government should operate and who should pay how much tax and how that money should be spent. Those preferences usually have to do with what will benefit us as individuals, our own personal agendas. I see nothing wrong with that. When an administration caters to the left or to the right, I feel, that is wrong when most of us are in the middle.

Nearly three yearsafter 9/11, with the full support of the American People, the congress,and the world. $200 billion war dollars, over a thousand American lives, tens of thousands of dead Iraqi and Afghan civilians, and Bin Laden is still alive and still free. For this reason alone, Bush should be fired. Bin Laden is responsible for the 9/11 attacks on the United States. Accordingly, he should have been dealt with years ago.

In the each of the last three years, Americans have filed personal bankruptcy in increasing record numbers. This trend is expected to continue and perhaps worsen with rising interest rates.

A scene in Fahrenheit Bush says in a speech to followers "impressive crowd, the haves and the have mores. Some people call you the elite, I call you my base." With nearly 40 percent of his tax cut package going to the wealthiest 1 percent of Americans, it is easy to see who among us he really represents.

Bush inherited a $100 billion budget surplus and the strongest US economy in history from Clinton and turned into a recession and projected $550 deficit in three years! Some use the "war" as an excuse. Well, we have had wars before, never a deficit like this. This President is NOT a fiscal conservative.

The nation rallyed its support for the President when he told the world that Saddam was an imminent threat to the US and the world. He told us about the connection between Saddam, Bin Laden, and 9/11. Well, we know now that was a pack of lies and has created much divisiveness in our international standing.

How someone would vote for Bush because they think that Kerry has a spine like a linguine do some comparisons. Kerry, wounded went back to active duty in Vietnam.

On 9/11, while the nation was under attach and chaos reigned, we all watched TV and listened to the radio all day long. One of the things that we did not know was, where was the President. Turns out he had tucked his tail and was on the run.

During the Vietnam War, the Texas Air National Guard was not accepting any applications and had a waiting list of over 500. Bush used his father's connections to cut in the line to get into the Guard. If that is not Affirmative Action I don't know what is. Yet, as a politician, he is firmly against Affirmative Action. You see what I mean by personal agendas?

With the nation is following the occupation of Iraq on a daily basis, the President tried to get a constitutional amendment to deny some Americans the right to marry. This basis for this amendment was "protect the institution of marriage", huh? I have yet to hear anyone explain how denying someone the right to marry, effects mine or anyone else's marriage, or protects or saves anyone from anything.

If after three years is office, any President does not campaign on their own record and the job that they have done in office, he should be fired. When a President's re-election campaign strategy is basically, "the other guy is worse", he should be fired.

Lee, you are doing the right thing. Ask questions, get all of the information that you can, decide what is important to you and make up your own mind. See Farenheit, there is a fair amount of information there, take it for what it is worth to you.

Just vote.

thejerk
08-02-2004, 10:43 PM
Definition of a liberal: military service doesn't matter ie... Bill Clinton vs George Bush Sr. a pilot shot down during active service. Kerry spent 4 mths in Vietnam and managed to gain an honorable mention in the Vietnamese communists foreign heros list in the Revolutionary Museum. I am not nocking his service but just can't believe that he wasn't there just to get out and protest as a veteran. Most with wounds like his want to get back to their units and get the job done. Buddies are depending on them.
"I actually did vote for the war before I voted against it." This quote from Kerry is a perfect example of the difference between conservatives and liberals.
Some other terms for liberal are "progressive and socialist."
The terms are around because there are differences in ideology and these are some of the best words to use. Liberal comes mainly from the idea that "man is the measure of all things."
When we say that our rights are derived from God we are saying that men can't take away what God has given us. The god doesn't have to be a particular god as long as it isn't men.
If the "Constitution is a living breathing thing" as liberals love to say then it can be changed more easily.
Not all democrats are liberals however I can't think of any party leaders that aren't. Back in the day people that were socialists didn't mind being socialists but they couldn't win elections because socialists believed it the job of the government to control and distribute wealth. Look at Europe it seems that most governments in Europe are socialist. Most European socialist countries don't have the wealth of most States in the United States.
Since socialism isn't a good word to use socialists starting using the term liberal.
Since the word liberal isn't working out anymore watch out here come the progressives.
Sorry for being so choppy with the sentences but history lessons take someone less lazy than me. People become offended if they are democrat and not liberal because they know that when they vote for the party of their childhood they are voting for a liberal, but hey, the party is almost a religion to some.
The way to control a people is to control their money and conservatives understand this. Conservative means to conserve the constitution. We are not mean and we are also the people who give the most to charity. You don't have to believe me but I have volunteered in many things and invariably the volunteers are predominantly conservative.

Coda
08-03-2004, 12:40 AM
Big serving, interesting post.

First off, I'll agree most Americans have a middle ideology. But, what people need to see is that Democracy, freedom isn't free. There were far more than a thousand American colonists killed in the American revolution, do you agree with that war? I bet you do, why? Because it created a free country right? Iraq, now has the potential to be a free country. You say Bin Laden should have been taken care of years ago, how is this Bush's fault?

On to your economic statement. Bush inherited the economy from Clinton, true Bush has spent alot of money on the war, but a free marketplace can't move on a dime. Success takes months, years to come about, just like a depression takes time to build up...however 9/11 is an exception. This wasn't all bush's fault...intelligence was also to blame, if a president had received such information why wouldn't he try to prevent something like this?

The quote from the movie...what is your point there...all politicians have a base that they get their main support from...further what is wrong with having a base with wealthy people. It is from these types of people that the wealth of the US comes from.

You say that bush turned his tail and ran during 9/11, what was he supposed to do during that day? He is our President, what happens if he gets killed that day too? Further, why didn't you do something more courageous that day? Did you happen to see any news casts of the first days afterwards were he did go to NYC and helped rally the firefighters and the workers?

I guess you don't know the truth about kerry, he went to vietnam for a few months then went to DC and protested the war...big war hero there...further many of his commanding officers then have since wrote letters where they believe he doesn't have what it takes as to be this country's commander in chief.

You say that getting his dad to pull strings to cut the line is affirmative action. A good example of affirmative action is when minorities are given extra points in the application process for college. This action is supposed to undo the years and years of oppression they have experienced. What a rare example of affirmative action you have...helping a white...and it's not even affirmative action you have in your example. From your example seems like Bush is more of a war hero, actually trying to get into the military rather than getting out of it to go to DC and protest it.

Honestly I don't see what point you are trying to make with the gay amendment statement. He did try to make an amendment protecting the institution of marriage, okay.

You talk about Bush not campaigning...I guess all those speeches in the swing states don't count for anything...even if he doesn't campagn he is a bad president? Flawed logic there, if he doesn't say he's a good president, he must be a bad one.

One to Lee's original post, I am 17 and when I try to talk politics with people my age, most are comletely clueless and hold no real opinion other than what TV says. Continue the political adventure, and vote.

thejerk
08-03-2004, 07:45 AM
Coda don't assume everyone would agree with the Revolutionary war of the U.S. Only around 30% of the population was pro war.
It is convenient to be against war and still reap the benefits of its outcome, no matter which side of it one was on. Aren't the Russians and French still doing business and protecting the current government in Sudan from economic sanctions? What did the Sudanese christians do to cause peace loving arab muslims to destroy them in the millions?

Coda
08-03-2004, 03:21 PM
jerk, I guess I didn't really make myself clear. I meant nearly everyone of today's American population and probably most people in the world who are intelligent enough to see what that revolution has produced have looked back in time and recognize the war as good. The point I was making is that some fighting is necessary to create a democracy, freedom.

PugArePeopleToo
08-03-2004, 10:22 PM
In the each of the last three years, Americans have filed personal bankruptcy in increasing record numbers. This trend is expected to continue and perhaps worsen with rising interest rates

You can't blame Bush for that. It is not his fault that Americans over extended their credit cards.

A scene in Fahrenheit Bush says in a speech to followers "impressive crowd, the haves and the have mores. Some people call you the elite, I call you my base." With nearly 40 percent of his tax cut package going to the wealthiest 1 percent of Americans, it is easy to see who among us he really represents.

Do you know that the wealthiest 1 percent contributed about 40 percent of the tax revenues each year? I am not sure cutting taxes when there is a deficit is a good idea, but if there is to be a tax cut, it should be proportional to those who paid the taxes in the first place.

Bush inherited a $100 billion budget surplus and the strongest US economy in history from Clinton and turned into a recession and projected $550 deficit in three years! Some use the "war" as an excuse. Well, we have had wars before, never a deficit like this. This President is NOT a fiscal conservative.

You can't blame Bush for the recession, the simple fact is the President of the United States has very little control over economic expansion or recession. Had Bill Clinton continued as the President, there will still be a recession. Regarding deficit, in nominal term, yes the projected deficit is the largest ever, but not in percentage of GPD, a much truer measure of a nation's indebtness. Having said that, Bush and the Republicans controlled the Congress are entirely responsible for the fiscal fiasco. Just as the Republicans Congress under Newt Gingrich should share some of the credit for the surplus under Clinton.

One additional reason to vote for Bush: It has been revealed that part of Bush's second term agenda is to eliminate the IRS and go to a national retail sales tax (the Fair Tax bill already in Congress). That would mean that the Congress critters wouldn't have the tax code to reward or punish the proletariat...and that's a good thing!

There is nothing fair about that. It is down right regressive. If the rich and the poor both purchased an item at $10, and paid $1 in sales tax, that same $1 will hurt the poor a lot more. IMO, Steve Forbe's flat income tax with no deduction is the best way to go.[/quote]

bigserving
08-04-2004, 08:31 AM
Definition of a liberal: military service doesn't matter ie...

So you are saying that Dick Cheney is a liberal?

thejerk
08-04-2004, 08:44 AM
Is that the entire quote. O.K. you're right, I should have used Bill Clinton vs Bob Dole.

bigserving
08-04-2004, 10:18 AM
[quote]You can't blame Bush for the recession, the simple fact is the President of the United States has very little control over economic expansion or recession. Had Bill Clinton continued as the President, there will still be a recession.

President Bush is continuing to say that his tax cuts to the wealthy is the key to economic stimulus. When this does not work (and it never has and never will) damn right we can (and should) hold him responsible.

There is no empirical evidence that a recession would have occurred if Clinton would have remained President. Economic policies would have been different, the results different. Don't get me wrong, after incredible growth under Clinton, the economy was ripe for a slowdown to more historical levels. I adjusted my portfolio accordingly and have profited from it. But, nobody predicted this kind of an economic meltdown.

Regarding deficit, in nominal term, yes the projected deficit is the largest ever, but not in percentage of GPD, a much truer measure of a nation's indebtness. Having said that, Bush and the Republicans controlled the Congress are entirely responsible for the fiscal fiasco. Just as the Republicans Congress under Newt Gingrich should share some of the credit for the surplus under Clinton.

The question is, why the deficit at all? Where did all the money go? Not back to the people in any way shape or form. No matter what ratio you want to use to measure it, GNP, GDP, or the raw total, it is more than it has ever been and it has never, ever, ever, grown (and continues to grow)at this rate. No President's policies has ever lost $650 billion in three years. This is not fiscal conservatism. It is irresponsibility and dangerous to the economic well being of the country.

Your response to my American's bankruptcy situation was "you can't blame Bush for people using their credit cards too much." What do you think that Bush is doing with the United States' (American People's) credit card?

The budget surplus under Clinton was NOT the result of any of Newt Gingrich's economic policies.

Most of the rhetoric support this administration stems from the argument that, "things could be worse." Come re-election time, I like to hear what the administration has done to make things better.

PugArePeopleToo
08-04-2004, 12:18 PM
To bigserving
Economic expansion and contraction are normal parts of business cycle, they are out of the President's power to manipulate. Any President, Democrat or Republican taking credit for the economic is lying to you. When businesses cut back on spending and start laying people off we have a contraction in the economy - a sustained 6 months contraction is a recession. Since neither Bush nor Clinton can tell businesses to hire or layoff people, they are powerless to prevent a recession or create a expansion. Government only has two means to affect the economy, namely fiscal and monetary policy. Regardless of who is in the White House, the President can only affect the fiscal policy, by approving or vetoing spending bills passed by the Congress, so his policy is really the Congress's policy. If you don't believe me, take a look at the Constitution, it clearly stated that the Congress should pass law to collect taxes and appropriate spending. This is why Newt Gingrich’s 100th Congress deserved just as much credit as Clinton for collecting more and spending less. However, I won't give either Newt or Clinton much credit; they were in the right place at the right time. If you recall, a large part of the surplus came from capital gain tax before the internet bubble busted. Without taxes from capital gain, there would be no surplus to speak of.

The other much more important factor, the monetary policy which controls the money supply and interest rate is controlled by the Federal Reserve Board. And we all know how powerful Greenspan is. Right?

Bush is not a fiscal conservative? No argument there. I already mentioned who I think should be held responsible for the current fiscal fiasco. However, we should look at the deficit in ratio. I'll give you an example, assuming your portfolio is identical to Dow Jones 30, if Dow went from 100 to 200, 100 points, what does that mean? It means, you doubled your money. However, if Dow went from 10,000 to 10,100, also 100 points, what does it do to your portfolio? It only went up 1%! For me at least, without looking at the percentage, nominal figures mean nothing.

I am not making any excuse for Bush. I think he is a very lousy President. I only want to point out the limited power a President has to make or break the economy.

By the way, if you think Kerry can better manage the economy, then please expain how he can to me. For starter, how is Kerry going to prevent unpatriotic Corporate America from moving jobs to China or India? And how is he going to create 3 million private sector jobs lost during Bush's 4 years? Here is his economic statement.

http://capwiz.com/y/e4/dnets/?sid=103892&id=100193

thejerk
08-04-2004, 02:15 PM
What effect did two buildings at the center of the economic world falling down have on the economy? The only thing I see in the deficit is the cost of a war. Raising taxes sucks. Hey, even in Europe corporate taxes are less. I suppose shutting airports didn't have any effect on economy either. Your are right about congress. Congress is in control of purse strings, however, they have no testicles. I personally don't consider Bush to be a fiscal conservative except for tax cuts. Believe it or not we are in the middle of a war and it seems to me he has signed every spending bill sent his way. I wish he would stop doing that but then he would be accused of starving the homeless or children and we know how people respond emotionally to everything they hear. My main problem with all of this is that a bubble burst and on top of that we were hit by terrorists and everyone acts like this had absolutely no effect on our economy.
How come noone every tries to compare the economic comeback we have had under Bush to the economies of the other industrialized nations. Isn't home ownership at an all time high? How come I can't find a parking spot at the mall. I don't even know anybody who is unemployed right now except for those who aren't trying to find a job.

snowpuppy
08-07-2004, 10:24 AM
here is a 21 yr old's point of view -

Currently there are two main things to worry about, the war and the job market. The war is especially important because of the 2 bill that is sleeping in the congress and senate ready to be passed. HR163 and its Senate version, S89 which pretty much allow the government to draft men and women for military service. If this is true and is passed, then for get about jobs and what not, we are all screwed.

The next is the job market. Assuming our butts are not in Iraq in the coming yrs, good luck finding a job. Some ppl are like the market is picking up or I don't know anyone that is unemployed who are actively seeking jobs. Me and my fellow graduates are mostly sit on our hands now because companies simply not hiring fresh out of college (mediocre colleges) students. All they as for is experienced personels. And those who have jobs are just under-employed, working in resturants, selling cell phones and crappy desk jobs.

With those issues in mind I really do c either president fixing these problems. Most of my age group have already listened to enuff anti-bush media to even think of voting for him. Bush supporters say he is america's best hope against terrorism. I don't know much but i know this, Bush, while bin laden is still out and at large, decided to invade iraq under faulty intellgence and still decides to focus on that region even though we know reasons in attacking iraq was wrong.

So most of us decide to "vote for the other guy" with the "anybody is better then bush" attitude. How do we know he is not worst? Up to this point is still don't know how he stands in issues like the draft. All i know is what i saw on a bummer sticker on someone's bookbag "republican and democrats, same sheit different pile"

thejerk
08-07-2004, 12:34 PM
The draft is being pushed by democrats for political reasons I don't think I will go into here and the draft crap is going nowhere. Bush didn't go into Iraq under faulty pretenses. If you don't believe what you hear about Hussein then you can't be convinced otherwise. To much info out there, and you haven't criticized the U.N. for the same info Bush went on. If you believe it is the presidents job to get you a job then you are a born democrat and should vote for Kerry. The same arguments used against Iraq war would have been used about the Taliban had we gone in there pre 911. I had to go through the same thing when I graduated and have had many college students intern for me who think that they deserve more money just because of their diplomas. It is my belief that most college grads end up doing something other than what they went to school for. Did you go to school for education or job training? If your friends are sitting on their hands they will never get a job. What are you going to do if god forbid you have to move out of state and away from parents house. If we don't defeat supporters of terrorism, which Hussein was, then you will also be screwed. If you think diplomas are a free ticket then you are also screwed. If you think someone else owes you a living then you are a born dem and therefore also screwed. I don't mean to sound so harsh but you sound spoiled in your post. If you think higher taxes are good for job growth then we are all screwed.

I really do apologize, having a very rough day at work and this is the first part of my double.