when should you take your raquet back

[looseswing]

I have heard people say just before the bounce of the ball and others say that you should have it back as soon as you know which way the ball is going. Which one is correct?

[Geezer Guy]

That's a matter of style and preference.

Most will agree that you can NOT take your racquet back too early, but you CAN take it back too late.

It depends on whether you use the "old school" take it back, wait, then swing forward motion. In that case, many people promote a very early take-back.

However, the newer style swing is more of a "loop". You time the swing so that the take-back and swing-forward are one continuous loop, with no pause. This is supposed to help with racquet acceleration. The problem is that if you wait too long to begin your motion, you have to rush it too much to make an effective shot.

[looseswing]

Thanks for the clarification, I was just wondering though, couldn't you have a mix of these two styles and take the raquet back up high as soon as you know where the ball is headed, but still use a loop to actually swing at the ball?

[raiden031]

Often teachers will tell beginners to take it back as soon as possible, but I think that looks stupid because you may be in position just waiting for the ball with your arm back. The pros seem to do it at the last possible moment because they have their timing nailed. I guess somewhere in between to where you can consistently get it back in time.

[Geezer Guy]

Thanks for the clarification, I was just wondering though, couldn't you have a mix of these two styles and take the raquet back up high as soon as you know where the ball is headed, but still use a loop to actually swing at the ball?

You could, but it would only be a half-loop.

[Bungalo Bill]

I have heard people say just before the bounce of the ball and others say that you should have it back as soon as you know which way the ball is going. Which one is correct?

It takes about one second for the ball to travel from your opponent to you. One second.

You should prepare your racquet for the stroke as soon as you can determine the side the ball is coming on - forehand or backhand. Build you practices to improve your ability to pick up the ball sooner and sooner. You can use cadences or other tools to help you get better at picking up the ball. The goal is to pick up the ball as soon as it leaves your opponents strings. This is actually impossible to do but you can get better at it then you are now.

Getting the racquet back means to prepare your shoulders, grip, position, and focus for the task at hand - to hit the ball cleanly. When you are ready to try to hit the ball, letting the racquet fall and then bringing it forward will help you add rythym to your swing and game.

Nearly every pro on film prepares as early as possible BEFORE THE BOUNCE. You do not want to prepare your racquet at the bounce or after the bounce. The main reason for this is because the ball comes at you with different spins and speeds. If you are bringing your racquet back when the ball bounces, nine times out of ten you will be late.

Also, do not confuse the Wegnerites hoopla. Most of them have no idea what they are talking about. In the end, they are saying the same thing.

[Bagumbawalla]

There are no tennis police to enforce any such rules.

In theory, you want to be prepared as early as possible, in position and ready to stroke cleanly through the ball toward your desired placement.

In practice, your opponent does everything possible to prevent you from doing so.

So, just get into position as soon as you can, have your racket prepared, don't worry about "rules", and hit the ball.

[chroix]

I usually try once I've commited to which direction I'm moving in.

[Bungalo Bill]

Often teachers will tell beginners to take it back as soon as possible, but I think that looks stupid because you may be in position just waiting for the ball with your arm back. The pros seem to do it at the last possible moment because they have their timing nailed. I guess somewhere in between to where you can consistently get it back in time.

This is where Wegnerites get it all wrong. This is where Wegnerites imply false leads. It is flat out dumb to suggest what you just did. FLAT OUT.

In every slo-motion video professionals prepare well before the ball bounce. What you don't understand is the difference between racquet preparation and "getting the racquet back". They try to achieve the same goal (racquet prepared) but one is exaggerated. Although there are drills to help exaggerate the takeback, it is simply a drill to help the player learn what it feels like to "turn the shoulders".

Please don't make false claims about how players are taught to get the racquet back. You are stating something and then exaggerating it. The goal for all racquet preparation drills is to execute exactly what the pros have learned for years doing the same frickin drills!

[Bungalo Bill]

There are no tennis police to enforce any such rules.

In theory, you want to be prepared as early as possible, in position and ready to stroke cleanly through the ball toward your desired placement.

It isn't theory Einstein! It is reality! I take it that you dont study tennis much but sprout out of your little hole and give out false messages. You prepare early, you prepare early, you prepare early as often as you can. There is no if's, and's, or but's. It is fact, practice, real, and film-based. IT CAN BE VERIFIED AND WE HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO PROVE IT.

In practice, your opponent does everything possible to prevent you from doing so.

Well Einstein, your opponent is not going to hit every ball to you disallowing you to prepare on time. That is ridiculous and is not realistic whatsoever. In fact, if your opponent did press you all the time, more importance should be placed on early preparation. Early preparation is the unwritten rule otherwise we would see you playing on TV and it would look damn ugly.

So in PRACTICE, IN THEORY, AND IN REAL MATCH PLAY, you want the racquet to be prepared early. Comprende? Understand? Get it?

It is flat out beginner tennis to think otherwise.

[sureshs]

People find it diffcult to visualize how to tackle the moving case. When you need to move a lot to get to the ball, the racquet takeback should be complete by the time you get to the ball so you are ready to hit. As you are moving, the racquet needs to be taken back in a kind of inverse proportion to the distance remaining. This requires anticipation and tracking of the ball. For deep balls when you are out of time, you should be able to adjust the takeback by shortening it depending on the time available and your ability (quickness and timing), like you do for service returns. For short balls (sitters) where you have time, you can actually make a later takeback for greater control when you have more information.

The reference to Wegner may be confusing for people new here. He made fun of how the early takeback principle looks ridiculous by having a player start running with his racquet fully taken back. It is true that there some recreational players (I have observed them in clinics) who actually do that and then their timing is all off and their stroke violent. But the idea is to take it back smoothly so that you are ready by the time you reach the ball.

[Kevo]

I tend to take my racquet back as early as possible, but I don't stop the motion. So my backswing loop changes speed depending on how fast the ball is coming. It could be a big slow loop, or almost no loop at all. Also, running to get to the ball, you can't take your racquet back right away, so in those cases I usually start a couple of steps away from the ball give or take. This is really something that you get a feel for with practice. Early preparation is best, but don't take it to an extreme. I've seen a lot of people that once the racquet goes back, that's when the feet stop moving. If the ball doesn't go exactly where they were thinking, then they have to reach for and make a weak shot.

[Mick]

...So in PRACTICE, IN THEORY, AND IN REAL MATCH PLAY, you want the racquet to be prepared early. Comprende? Understand? Get it?

It is flat out beginner tennis to think otherwise.

I even heard McEnroe saying that sometimes they would anticipate where the ball would land ahead of time and prepare to hit it (when receiving a serve)

[Hondasteve]

I would have to side wtih BB on this one. My rule of thumb is, if the ball is at the net, your racquet should be back.

[Bagumbawalla]

BungaloBill,

Take your medication, please. I assume you have some problem, so I give you the benefit of doubt. You are ranting and being rude without provocation.

Aparently, you are unaware of how you come acoss.

[tennisplayer]

Man, have I struggled with this question for a long time! But I think I understand now.

The key is to do all the movements "just in time". You don't see a boxer pull his hand back and pause before punching. The body will lose coordination if you do that, and you will lose power. Doing the unit turn (which constitutes preparation) first, and then the final bit of racquet takeback (including dropping the racquet head) just in time - that is, there are no pauses - maximizes muscular coordination and yields the most racquet head speed. Try it out yourself and you'll see what I mean. I don't think it is necessary to synchronize these movements with the ball bounce - you would do things differently based on ball speed and depth. At pro level, the speeds are so high that they may often have to prepare well in advance of the bounce. However, the thing to notice is that they do everything in one continuous movement... truly poetry in motion.

[amit_ace]

First of all I wud say that I am not a great player...but i will tell u something which will help a lot...i guess
I have just tried it with the wall not during practise yet...
You dont need to take the racquet back until the ball bounces ..unless the ball is going to bounce very near to ur feet and u have 2 take it as a half volley...
until the ball has not bounced concerntrate on ur footwork trying to get in proper position..meanwhile u can also do a slight shoulder turn by holding the throat of racquet with ur left hand... assuming u r a rightie..
I have observed..if u r in proper position and u start takeback even after the bounce there is plenty of time..infact u see the ball better as u are still watching the ball and timing is much better...
i have tried this around twice against the wall and it sure works...

[Swissv2]

You take the racquet back earlier when receiving a serve. (depends on speed)

When you hit regular ground strokes and you set yourself, you take the racquet back once you are in position.

If the ball is going fast and wide, you take the racquet back when the ball bounces.

[mucat]

Can't compare tennis to boxer, in boxing, you don't want your opponent to know which side you are going to strike from.

In tennis, the opponent knows which side you are going to hit the ball. Hitting the ball is close to a archer than boxer. You see where the ball is going, you put back, aim and wait for the ball to enter the strike zone, then unload. As least to me, when I have a whackable (hmm....is this a word...whackable ) ball, that's how I felt.

[chess9]

I don't know about others, but backhand preparation for me takes longer, but it's my most consistent stroke. I'd say full prep for the backhand takes me about .6 seconds, whereas forehand is like .4 seconds. Give or take. :) Anyway, footwork is critical to preparation. If all the geezers at my club would move their feet, they could hit the ball.

-Robert

[Janne]

My coach is telling me to take the racquet back as soon as I know wich direction it's going in. I think it's a very good advice!

[sureshs]

BungaloBill,

Take your medication, please. I assume you have some problem, so I give you the benefit of doubt. You are ranting and being rude without provocation.

Aparently, you are unaware of how you come acoss.

Just filter out that stuff mentally from his posts. There are gems to be found in the other parts of his posts - like the advice on not bending the shoulder back while on the backfoot for an open stance BH in another thread. It was something that was bothering me but I could not pinpoint it.

[Bagumbawalla]

sureshs,

Good advice.

Thanks,

B

[kevhen]

If you play on a fast surface, you may need to start your swing even slightly before the ball has bounced so you need your racquet back very early. If you are on the run, you don't always have the luxury to get your racquet back in great position early but may need to rely on good timing and coordination and practice. Taking your racquet back early when not on the run is fine though as long as your are still taking baby steps to get your feet in the right position.

As in golf where you should take the club back slowly and then accelerate on the downswing, the same is true in tennis. You will probably have more power if this is one smooth motion rather than sitting with the racquet back and waiting, but being ready early has it's merits too, so I think it's more about individual preference. Better to be ready early than late.

[Pusher]

I have heard people say just before the bounce of the ball and others say that you should have it back as soon as you know which way the ball is going. Which one is correct?

If you have time to move to the ball without hitting on the run then your racquet movement will flow with your footwork. Your feet get set, the racquet goes back while your off hand tracks the ball (for balance) and then you swing. I doubt you'll ever see any good player moving to the ball with his racquet back unless he has to hit on the run. That kind of technique is generally reserved for butterfly catchers and the like.

Just my opinion.

[kevhen]

Would the butterfly catchers technique be ok to use when hitting overheads on the run or is the arm not extended enough using that technique?

http://images.fotosearch.com/bigcomps/IDM/IDM114/sjsa1002.jpg

[Pusher]

Kevhen,

If I have to hit an overhead on the run then I just holler "too good".

[Geezer Guy]

Too bad about that little one-eyed, one-leged girl.

I imagine her depth perception and movement are a problem.

[chroix]

I don't know what happened to her leg, but I've already apologized about the eye...

[tennis_hand]

Man, have I struggled with this question for a long time! But I think I understand now.

The key is to do all the movements "just in time". You don't see a boxer pull his hand back and pause before punching. The body will lose coordination if you do that, and you will lose power. Doing the unit turn (which constitutes preparation) first, and then the final bit of racquet takeback (including dropping the racquet head) just in time - that is, there are no pauses - maximizes muscular coordination and yields the most racquet head speed. Try it out yourself and you'll see what I mean. I don't think it is necessary to synchronize these movements with the ball bounce - you would do things differently based on ball speed and depth. At pro level, the speeds are so high that they may often have to prepare well in advance of the bounce. However, the thing to notice is that they do everything in one continuous movement... truly poetry in motion.


I agree with this comment.

It must be a smooth movement. Someone here can try to pull your full swing back and wait there then strike the ball. You will lose your muscle's elastic power by holding your backswing too long. At the end, you will muscle the ball by pushing your arm towards the ball.

it really depends on the ball's speed and spin. but some preparation is needed before the ball bounces, but I don't think you need to prepare the pull back so early.

[Bungalo Bill]

I even heard McEnroe saying that sometimes they would anticipate where the ball would land ahead of time and prepare to hit it (when receiving a serve)

Of course they do. If any of you are members of Yandell's website, look at the "REAR view" videos. The racquet is back well before the bounce of the ball. If the ball travels in one second from one side to another wouldn't one think that in normal motion it looks like pros prepare at or near the bounce? When you put it is slo-motion it is painfully obvious that quick preparation happens BEFORE the bounce.

Drills exaggerating racquet takeback are for helping a student automate early racquet preparation (backswing, grip, shoulder turn, positioning, etc.). All players need to prepare as early as possible. Period.

[redtennis55]

BB, are raquet prep. and takeback the same thing though, or is turning the sholders and having the raquet ready at your side sufficient?

[Bungalo Bill]

BungaloBill,

Take your medication, please. I assume you have some problem, so I give you the benefit of doubt. You are ranting and being rude without provocation.

Aparently, you are unaware of how you come acoss.

I will if you take yours first! Anyone ignoring that pros prepare before the bounce with mounds and mounds of video evidence is surely in need for some pills.

I have been posting here for years while coming across lame posts such as your own. You can bet I will post against ridiculous thinking as you displayed above.

You have no proof of what your saying. I on the other hand have penty of proof that pro's prepare before the bounce. The only thing you have is Wegners lame "insights".

I challenged him personally on it and provided pictures, video, and a clear written explanation. You know what he said? NOTHING! However, he did start babbling about how his followers get it wrong. You know what? Everything he said Braden said and others about racquet preparation.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but so am I. Pros prepare BEFORE the bounce and it is a technical requirement for advanced play. Drills promoting early preparation are good drills.

[Bungalo Bill]

BB, are raquet prep. and takeback the same thing though, or is turning the sholders and having the raquet ready at your side sufficient?

YES! In this case, the butt cap of the racquet is still within the shoulders and often is still near the belly button.

This is what Wegnerites do not get. They often point to a drill of someone running around the court with their hitting arm extended and the tip racquet head pointing to the back fence. Then they say ALL coaches teach this ALL the time. Ridiculous!

Racquet preparation happens:

1. After you made contact with the ball. Part of racquet preparation is recovery so you can move to the next ball under control, to the appropriate position, while preparing your grip and the turn of your shoulders.

2. When you begin to bring back your hitting hand usually goes upward some or for onehanders the first part of the smile pattern is achieved which brings the racquet head up and near the back shoulder.

3. You move to the correct grip for your stroke.

4. When you step out with the foot closest to the ball facilitating good balance, correct movement, and upper body support to stay in control.

Step One through Four in combination is racquet preparation.

Once the racquet is prepared and the player is setup, the racquet drops and then comes forward to make contact. The dropping of the racquet facilitates increased racquet head speed, rythym, timing, and fluidness. Each player has their limits on how far they take the racquet back to maintain consistency. Each player needs to understand what they need. Usually players find it easier to time the ball with a shorter backswing - especially on hard courts.

[Bungalo Bill]

I don't know about others, but backhand preparation for me takes longer, but it's my most consistent stroke. I'd say full prep for the backhand takes me about .6 seconds, whereas forehand is like .4 seconds. Give or take. :) Anyway, footwork is critical to preparation. If all the geezers at my club would move their feet, they could hit the ball.

-Robert

Why? Shoulders need to turn more to get the front shoulder back some so part of your back is seen by your opponent. Loading and weight transfer are more critical in the onehander. You must move to the front foot quickly and hit out in front for the onehander. The onehanders preparation speed is more critical given you need to hit the ball in front of your front shoulder.

[Bungalo Bill]

Just filter out that stuff mentally from his posts. There are gems to be found in the other parts of his posts - like the advice on not bending the shoulder back while on the backfoot for an open stance BH in another thread. It was something that was bothering me but I could not pinpoint it.

LOL

[Bagumbawalla]

Bungalo Bill,

Before throwing a mental fit, you should actually READ what a person has written before starting out with you bashing.

Nowhere in the world do I say to wait until after the bonuce to prepare. I say, "Prepare as early as possible".

My suggestion to you is, if you feel you have something valuable to add to a discussion, think it through and state is as clearly as possible. Even if you are correct, all that ranting and raving just makes you seem like a nut case.

The whole point of this section is to help someone out, not to vent your anger with the world.

If you have any sense, you will see that this is correct.

Also, this is my last response you. You either get it or you don't.

[chess9]

Why? Shoulders need to turn more to get the front shoulder back some so part of your back is seen by your opponent. Loading and weight transfer are more critical in the onehander. You must move to the front foot quickly and hit out in front for the onehander. The onehanders preparation speed is more critical given you need to hit the ball in front of your front shoulder.

I could not disagree.

-Robert

[Bungalo Bill]

Bungalo Bill,

Before throwing a mental fit, you should actually READ what a person has written before starting out with you bashing.

Nowhere in the world do I say to wait until after the bonuce to prepare. I say, "Prepare as early as possible".

My suggestion to you is, if you feel you have something valuable to add to a discussion, think it through and state is as clearly as possible. Even if you are correct, all that ranting and raving just makes you seem like a nut case.

The whole point of this section is to help someone out, not to vent your anger with the world.

If you have any sense, you will see that this is correct.

Also, this is my last response you. You either get it or you don't.

Give it up pal!

[grimmbomb21]

Bungalo Bill,

Before throwing a mental fit, you should actually READ what a person has written before starting out with you bashing.

Nowhere in the world do I say to wait until after the bonuce to prepare. I say, "Prepare as early as possible".

My suggestion to you is, if you feel you have something valuable to add to a discussion, think it through and state is as clearly as possible. Even if you are correct, all that ranting and raving just makes you seem like a nut case.

The whole point of this section is to help someone out, not to vent your anger with the world.

If you have any sense, you will see that this is correct.

Also, this is my last response you. You either get it or you don't.

I'm not trying to get in the middle of your debate, but if you have been here very long at all you know BB will let you have it when you are pointing someone in the wrong direction.:cool:

Now, not turning shoulders too early because you will look stupid...WRONG DIRECTION! I think another poster said that one though. And if you are playing with someone who's groundstrokes don't require an immediate shoulder turn from you, find someone better.

[wingwatergrass]

"You can use cadences or other tools to help you get better at picking up the ball."

B.Bill, I'm keen to hear what suggestions you have or where could I find tips/tools/drills to develop this skill of picking the ball up earlier. Also, you've mentioned the term cadence before and from the way you talk about it it sounds like a useful tool however I've never found detailed explanation of how to implement it.

I'm keen to hear your thoughts.

Thanks.

[Bungalo Bill]

"You can use cadences or other tools to help you get better at picking up the ball."

B.Bill, I'm keen to hear what suggestions you have or where could I find tips/tools/drills to develop this skill of picking the ball up earlier. Also, you've mentioned the term cadence before and from the way you talk about it it sounds like a useful tool however I've never found detailed explanation of how to implement it.

I'm keen to hear your thoughts.

Thanks.

When you use all your senses to help you focus on the next ball you wilh have greater success in automating and improving your reaction time to arrive to the place you need to more often.

Cadence type help involves saying things like HIT, BOUNCE, HIT. Or 1, 2, 3.

The first word or number causes your brain to focus before your opponent hits the ball. It puts your mind and body in the present.

The second word or number helps your mind and body judge space and time. It helps you gather information about the speed of the incoming ball and the sooner you recognize how the speed and trajectory relates to you, the better you can make adjustments in your movement so you can take more balls in your grips strike zone.

The last word or number helps to improve your timing and helps you relax into your stroke.

Once the ball leaves your racquet a refocus on your first word or number resets for the next ball. This improves your focus and quickness into recovery.

[Geezer Guy]

loosewing, I don't know if you're still around or not, but I'll post this in case you are. I had my weekly lesson with a pro today, and he said he wanted to work on my takeback. He'd watched me play recently, and he didn't think I was taking my racquet back soon enough.

He said that I was starting my takeback when the ball bounces, which is OK most of the time but it causes problems when the ball takes a bad bounce, skips, or lands too close to me. He said it's best to start the takeback as soon as you know whether it's going to be a forehand or a backhand. I told him that I had a loop and didn't want to break the momentum of the loop, and he said it was fine to start the takeback early, but do it slow and speed up as the ball gets close. So, instead of a quick take-back and loop and hit, it's more of a slow take-back and accelerate into the loop and hit.

(Above was for forehand only. With the 1-handed backhand there is a pause after you take the racquet back and before you swing foreward.)

It feels different and will take some getting used to, but the courts at my club are pretty fast and I could really tell the difference on some shots that land near/on the baseline and skid.

[looseswing]

Thanks for the advice everybody, a lot of really good stuff that I have to practice to get into my game here.

[tlm]

I just watched some of the dubai final, between fed+nadal.I counted from when the ball was hit + when it was received, almost every time it was at least 2 seconds.

I dont believe that there is only one second of time to get ready for a shot.So if there is at least 2 seconds on most of the pro shots there has to be at least 3 seconds with amatuer players.

I have been through this before with bb+i dont want to get you all fired up bb, but i dont think it is always right to backswing before the bounce.You said watch the tape of the pros+yes with some pros on some shots they takeback before the bounce.But not every pro on every shot does this.

On tennisone they show plenty of clips with the pros taking back after bounce+they show plenty of them taking back before+right at bounce.If you watch the rear views of roddick+blake many times they wait untill after the bounce especially on balls the have time to set up on.

So i believe at the amatuer level there are plenty of times that it is actually better to wait untill bounce to make your take back, other times it is better to take back a little before or right at bounce.

I think it changes depending on the shot, i know that when i get a midcourt sitter i have plenty of time on, i will wait untill well after bounce, to make the take back+ swing all one motion.

[Tiger Paw]

loosewing...

Going back to your original question I would like to clearify in this way. Think of the all your actions after a hit as anticipating and tracking the ball's return. As part of this tracking people point with their racket at or toward the ball. Wagoner types point with the tip of their racket, or through the strings (a la Blake). Bollatari types point with the butt of the racket (think Sharapova) Each is a different "style" with different mechanics, but each technique serves the same purpose... to track the ball.

What each wants to do is collect potential energy which can be released onto the ball at the exact correct moment. Hackneed tennis teacher dogma for generations ( and evolving before modern rackets) has described a forehand as turn sideways, point the end of the racket at the back fence (arm extended), step (to the side line!!!) and swing. This is like learning to be an artist by using paint by numbers... it is just not going to happen. Well meaningly, it becomes over mechanical and over simplified. As the "student" follows the "lesson" what is lost is pin point timing and the exhaustion of any potential energy before contact.

If you are thinking of the first two, it is a matter of which style you are more comfortable with. If it is the dumbied down latter you are thinking of, run don't walk, to a new teacher.

In my observation of the pro game today, including Fedder, most players are anticipating the ball by pointing the tip of the racket at the ball. Indeed I would almost defy anyone to point out a pro player who anticipates the ball by pointing the tip of the racket to the back fence with an extended straight arm.

[Bungalo Bill]

I just watched some of the dubai final, between fed+nadal.I counted from when the ball was hit + when it was received, almost every time it was at least 2 seconds.



Of course not, it would be stupid to think so. If I hit a lob, it would take a little longer. If I looped the ball it would take longer. Kind of dumb to think every single ball is one second.

However, I have also counted the time it leaves an opponents racquet (as well as others well beyond your skills) to the time it arrives at the baseline and it ranged from about 1 second to 2 seconds with the majority of them being a little over one second.

Whether it is one or two seconds, the bottom-line is to prepare early.

[WhiteSox05CA]

Try expierimenting, different kinds of backswing require differnt timings obviously. But sometimes taking it back too early will throw your rhythm off if you have to pause or hesitate and may feel unatural. Try different timings, you may naturally just get used to one kind.

[doggieboy]

Thanks...it was.

[tlm]

To whitesox05ca,very good points you are correct in saying by taking it back to early it can actually ruin your swing.The swing+takeback should be one motion.

[JohnYandell]

The timing between hits is never 3 or 4 seconds or even close. A few years ago we did some careful counting based on video frames and found it to be about 1.2 seconds or sometimes less in the pros. And it could be faster now.

We did the same test with some 5.0 players (myself and a few other teaching pros). The timing there was about 1.4 or 1.5 seconds.

If you wait til the bounce to prepare you are down to about .3 or .4 seconds.

[Mick]

All the pros take the racquet back very early but then some of them don't hit the ball until the very last instance, especially those who hit the ball with a two-handed backhand, to fake out their opponents . That's not my observation, it was McEnroe's and he made that comment on many occasions in the televised broadcasts.

[Bungalo Bill]

To whitesox05ca,very good points you are correct in saying by taking it back to early it can actually ruin your swing.The swing+takeback should be one motion.

This is a bit misleading. Taking your racquet back early does not ruin a swing. You can prepare your racquet in plenty of time before the ball arrives and still execute your drop and forward swing to time the ball.

Saying this and posting your 2+ second post clearly shows me you have no idea what you are talking about. Quit thinking the pros take their racquet back with the bounce, at the bounce, or after the bounce. You are viewing things at normal speeds and it is misleading.

When a pro first sees the ball coming to either side, HE IMMEDIATELY PREPARES THE GRIP, THE SHOULDERS, THE RACQUET TURNS BACK WITH THE SHOULDERS, HE PLANTS, HE SEES THE BOUNCE, THEN DROPS THE RACQUET AND BRINGS IT FORWARD INTO CONTACT.

It is painfully obvious. It is plain as day!

When you watch the pros at normal speed it looks like they are taking the racquet back as the ball bounces. They are not. It only looks like they are preparing the racquet at the last moment or when the ball bounces.

[Bungalo Bill]

All the pros take the racquet back very early but then some of them don't hit the ball until the very last instance, especially those who hit the ball with a two-handed backhand, to fake out their opponents . That's not my observation, it was McEnroe's and he made that comment on many occasions in the televised broadcasts.

You are right on. Pros indeed try to take their racquet back as early as they can. When they can't, it means they are usually on the run which is not where they want to be.

Television tricks the eyes because the ball travels so fast. But if you slow it way down, it is easy to see how fast the pros prepare their racquet and 8 times out of 10 - it is before the bounce.

If they didn't they wouldn't be in the tournament. Good observation.

[basil J]

I've got to chime in here. I tried the wegner thoery of waiting until the last moment and then pulling the racquet across my body to hit, and I couldn't get any depth or pop on my forehand at all and I was late alot. I went back to my pro and asked him to video tape my groundies and focus on my take back and follow through. When I waited, ala wegner, I had a lot more errors than when I took the racquet back ( with my left hand) as soon as I saw what direction it was going in. The net result: when I take the racquet back early, I am much more consistant and have much more time!! Less errors, more depth and power because I have more time..By the way, try running up to a short ball with both hands on the racquet and then try running with your racquet back.I found it much easier to put away short balls when I ran with my racquet back. Some posters here goof on guys that move with their racquet back, but watch Sampras or Fed take a wide ball on the run on their forehand and their racquet is back when they get there. I agree with BB here. the earlier the prep, the more time you buy yourself. Bolliteri says" you can never prepare too early" and I am a firm believer in that.. just my 2 cents...

[tlm]

Easy now BB,i know that you know a lot about the game.I have learned a lot from your posts.If you have any pro tennis matches on hand watch from the time the one player hits the ball+count 1-1000-2-1000 etc.until the other player hits the ball.Or use a stop watch+then tell me i have no idea what i am talking about.

I was at cincy this summer watching most of the top pros, + i was in the first row were i could see things perfectly.One thing me+my wife noticed was on a lot of rallys the pros did not hit as hard as tv makes it look.I was surprised that it was more about placement+spin than it was power.

I watched murray defeat fed+he gave fed a steady diet of junk, slices off speed shots.I will gaurantee that on a good % of murrays shots it was at least 2 seconds.I watched nadal play 2 matches+again by the time his looping forehand comes down it is at least 2 seconds,this can be proven bb.

I agree that a pro will change his grip+start to turn his body, but on a lot of shots they do not take racquet back untill at the bounce.There is much proof of this on tape.

Now when we are talking about amatuer players there is that much more time.Me +my friends have filmed each other+on some shots we prepare right before bounce some right at bounce+some definitely after bounce.

Again it depends on the amount of time you have.Like i said before when i get a mid court sitter+plenty of time to set up on it, the last thing i want to do is take my racquet back early.That is the best way to screw up an easy put away!!

[JohnYandell]

So you've based your theory of timing on counting by thousands to yourself during pro matches while sitting in the stands with your wife?

Now that's scientific methodology! Or maybe you used a stopwatch or maybe you are just suggesting someone else use a stop watch?

How about actually measuring it using calibrated video tape that goes in 1/30 second intervals? And counting the frames between contact points? And doing that over a few dozen exchanges between different players in different matches.

I guess that would be less accurate than the brillant methodolgy you've employed right? It couldn't be that the results from that type of actual quantified measurement should be trusted.

[AJK1]

When it breaks!!

[D-man]

When it breaks!!

lol :) nice attempt to lighten the mood there..

[tlm]

I never said that my proof was on doing a silent count, my point was that you can do this easily if you are watching a match just to get an idea of how long it is.

Also yes i have used a stop watch+never was it 1 second from hit to hit, bb was the one who said it was 1 second.Not every shot in every pro match is at blinding speed.With a stop watch i was getting around 1.5-2.2 depending on the shot.

I am not saying using a stop watch is as accurate as your method, but it sure is accurate enough to prove there are very few if any shots in the pros that are only 1 second from hit to hit.

As long as we are talking ground strokes were both players are on or behind the baseline, which is were most of the rallys are from in the modern game.Of course this does not include volleys or were someone is way inside the baseline.

So the question would be how much slower is the club player who is at a 4.0 ranking?I would guess it would have to be at least1-2 seconds slower.I also would think that someone on this site asking when you should take your racquet back would be closer to a 3.0 player.

I wonder how much time we are talking about now i would bet a minumum of 3 seconds if not 4 on some shots.Seems like that is a lot of time +if you watch players at this level i would bet good money that they make far more mistakes because they are to early on thier shots not to late!!!!

[JohnYandell]

Not as accurate as my method? I think your reflexes on that stop watch might need work.

There are plenty of 1 second and faster exchanges in the pros. It averages a little over a second, maybe 1.2. Ranges from about .9 to 1.5 or 1.6. Why would you hazard an opinion that you obviously know nothing about? Even a relatively slow slice backhand still takes only about 1.5 seconds.

The serve return is about .66 and can be even less than .60. So if you wait till after the bounce to begin your preparation on the return, you will really be in good shape there.


So it used to be you were arguing pro exchanges were 3 seconds. But I guess you've abandoned that. Now you're just sure it couldn't be a second. You think it's about 1.5 to 2.0 and these are now based on a stop watch.

There's a difference between measuring something and just making it up.

It used to be the secret of pro tennis was to take your racket back as late as possible. You were very sure of that.

Now it's when the ball is 3 times as slow and you're a 3.0 that this is the right strategy? Have you done your same thorough research to document this claim about the timing of these events?

Which one is it?

[mucat]

Watching the Pros during a normal rally is hard to see how early they take back their racket because their shots are fast and deep. To see how early the Pros prepare their shots, notice how they handle shortballs, sitters and slower balls. They move to where they want to hit as soon as possible, they take back their rackets and actually wait for the ball as early as possible.

[FitzRoy]

Watching the Pros during a normal rally is hard to see how early they take back their racket because their shots are fast and deep. To see how early the Pros prepare their shots, notice how they handle shortballs, sitters and slower balls. They move to where they want to hit as soon as possible, they take back their rackets and actually wait for the ball as early as possible.

I've observed some high speed video on the hi-tech tennis site, and it seems to me that the pros never have a completely still racquet during any part of the swing. Their swings appear to begin moving forward as soon as they're in the full take-back position. BB, JohnYandell, would you agree with that?

[JohnYandell]

Well, Exactly!

I wrote a pretty detailed post about this last time we went round and round with the idiot on this one. I don't mind disagreement of opinion but it's the distortion and falsification of fact in the service of ideology that I reject.

The way it works is this. The preparation begins as a unitary whole body motion involving the sideways turning of the feet and the torso. This is called the unit turn. It begins immediately after the split step and sometime during--that is at the moment of the recognition of the shot. It is universal on the forehand in pro tennis, and in all good forehands.

This is why the term "racket preparation" can be misleading. The racket starts sideways and back instantaneously with the unit turn. It's along for the ride until the shoulders reach about 45 degrees to the net. But it is moving sideways and usually back at the start of the preparation.

Around the time when the unit turn is complete the hands separate. The left arm extends across the body and out parallel to the baseline. The shoulders continue to turn until they are at least 90 degrees to the net. Meanwhile, the racket hand takes the racket up and then back and then down and then forward.

The whole motion is continous. The overall timing and rhythm adjusts to the speed of the ball and the time interval the player has on a given shot.

What I have seen time and time again in players who try to "stalk" is that they never get fully turned. It's comical because you can even see the poor coiling in the clips from the Wegner DVDs I've seen. The players never get fully turned, but are nevertheless bragging about how great their forehands are. But it's all VERY modern and advanced.

[FitzRoy]

That's a very informative post, John. I like your description of the entire motion. The racquet take-back is a process that contains too many parts to initiate as late as the ball bouncing. I would say that the two key parts of the rhythm/timing of a forehand groundstroke are beginning as soon as you make recognition of the direction of the opponent's shot (like you said), and having continuous racquet motion once the take-back begins.

[JohnYandell]

And most important to initiate with the turning of the shoulders and to continue this to the full coil.

All good forehands have this but 95% of all club players never develop it. Either they are too busy trying to prepare the racket with a large independent loop that they fervently believe generates "racket head speed"--or worse they are trying to "stalk the ball" without turning the body and are holding the racket out front. False belief on both counts and aesthetically horrifying to observe!

[tlm]

I never said pro exchanges were 3 seconds, i said 2 seconds.A slow backhand slice is only 1.5 seconds?I have a very hard time believing that.

I specified that i am talking about baseline rallys, who said anything about serve returns.There are plenty of 1 second+faster exchanges in the pros?

On many of the pro rallys today the players are 2-6 feet behind the baseline, you are telling me the ball gets there in less than 1 second.There is no way that is true.

I said that the pros will take thier racquet back right before the bounce, right at the bounce,+ right after the bounce.It depends on the player+the speed of the incoming ball.

I was just watching some tape of nadal in the us open, when he forced a midcourt sitter he would get set up on the ball+wait.Then when the ball hits the ground he would take his racquet back+make his swing.

That is the point when they have time on a slow hit ball is when they wait, on a high speed ball they have to make takeback earlier.It varys depending on the shot.

When they do get a sitter, is when it is so obvious that they dont take the racquet back early.Show me were a pro has plenty of time on a shot+he is standing there waiting with his racquet back.

I think that represents more of what happens at the amatuer level,that is why i said at the 3.0 level there is plenty of time.Also tell me, am i also incorrect in saying that most of the mistakes at that level are from being to early?

Maybe i was wrong, but i assumed someone asking when to take racquet back is around a 3.0-3.5.What does a pro level pace have to do with them?What is thier average time between hits?Plus i thought i have heard here that saying play like the pros is a stupid statement!!!

[Bungalo Bill]

I never said pro exchanges were 3 seconds, i said 2 seconds.A slow backhand slice is only 1.5 seconds?I have a very hard time believing that.

Well you heard it from two people that study tennis as well as Braden has measured the approximate time it takes for the ball to go from your opponents racquet to the baseline - around 1 second. You have a hard time believing anything.

On many of the pro rallys today the players are 2-6 feet behind the baseline, you are telling me the ball gets there in less than 1 second.There is no way that is true.

I am not saying LESS than one second. I am saying around one second. Braden measured it around 1 - 1.8 seconds. Get it? Need help? Comprende? Still the bottom-line is to prepare BEFORE the ball bounces!

I said that the pros will take thier racquet back right before the bounce, right at the bounce,+ right after the bounce.It depends on the player+the speed of the incoming ball.

They do not take their racquet back RIGHT BEFORE the bounce. They will take their racquet back as soon as they know the direction of the ball. They do not wait for a specific time when the ball is on their side of the net!!!!

If the ball is traveling super fast at the pro level it will SEEM like they are taking their racquet back at your perceived time. However, they are not. The brain and their training is looking for THE SOONEST MOMENT TO PREPARE THE RACQUET!!!

Hitting out in front is a staple to professional tennis and to hit out in front at their level - THEY MUST PREPARE AS SOON AS THEY KNOW WHERE THE BALL IS GOING!!! Get it?

I was just watching some tape of nadal in the us open, when he forced a midcourt sitter he would get set up on the ball+wait.Then when the ball hits the ground he would take his racquet back+make his swing.

You are confusing the racquet drop and the racquet preparation. ALL PROS PREPARE EARLY!!! ALL PROS.

That is the point when they have time on a slow hit ball is when they wait, on a high speed ball they have to make takeback earlier.It varys depending on the shot.

WHAT? HUH? The racquet is still prepares early on all shots. You are now stepping over your tongue. Quit trying to justify your ignorance.

Quit spreading lies about how pros prepare. They have trained for years to prepare the racquet early that now they are so tuned in, they can measure exactly when to drop the racquet and bring it forward. Braden has said this for years!

When they do get a sitter, is when it is so obvious that they dont take the racquet back early.Show me were a pro has plenty of time on a shot+he is standing there waiting with his racquet back.

Why dont you join John's site and I would be happy to embarrass you. You are now digressing into SLOW BALLS and OTHER AREAS to justify your lousey insight and your lousey ability to analyze a pros game. Many times a pro ON A SHORT BALL will have their racquet prepared to come across or straight through the ball. They have their racquet high and meet the ball at shoulder hieght for the putaway. You can see them with their elbow up coming in to pounce on the ball. Geeeez, man, open your eyes. PROS PREPARE EARLY!!!! THEY ARE TRAINED THAT WAY!!!!

I think that represents more of what happens at the amatuer level,that is why i said at the 3.0 level there is plenty of time.Also tell me, am i also incorrect in saying that most of the mistakes at that level are from being to early?

YOU ARE INCORRECT! Errors are not from preparing early. Errors come from a lack of practice, a lack of coordination, a lack of footwork, a lcack of making clean contact with the ball, poor shot selection, swinging too hard, poor ball placement, etc....

Nobody prepares too early.

Maybe i was wrong, but i assumed someone asking when to take racquet back is around a 3.0-3.5.What does a pro level pace have to do with them?What is thier average time between hits?Plus i thought i have heard here that saying play like the pros is a stupid statement!!!

At the 3.0 - 3.5 level things are relative. The ball may come back slower but so is a 3.5's footwork, preparation, ability to react, recovery moves, footspeed, and the ability to perform the same stroke consistently.

IT IS NEVER TOO EARLY TO PREPARE.

[Bungalo Bill]

Watching the Pros during a normal rally is hard to see how early they take back their racket because their shots are fast and deep. To see how early the Pros prepare their shots, notice how they handle shortballs, sitters and slower balls. They move to where they want to hit as soon as possible, they take back their rackets and actually wait for the ball as early as possible.

A person who gets it.

[kevhen]

I think TLM might be confusing racquet preparation with the start of the swing. The pro will have his racquet ready early (back but not all the way back) on short balls but will move in and get in good position before starting the full takeback loop. But the pro does take the racquet back to his preferred side fairly early usually before the ball has bounced or even crossed the net. He may not have started his full takeback loop yet though.

No need to cut others down because there is confusion between you two. Just say what you know and avoid berating others when they disagree with you and you will appear much wiser.

[Mark S. Hogan]

Yes Kevhen, that's a skill even the best of us can work on. :)

[JohnYandell]

You should stop posting on this board because you can't get your facts straight, and you revise your claims whenever someone confronts you with your disinformation.

Seriously, it's a disservice to the game. You have no credibility and if I were you I would ashamed of the repeated errors, mistatements, and various weasel-like qualifications you are always making. It's pathetic.

You wrote this:

"On many of the pro rallys today the players are 2-6 feet behind the baseline, you are telling me the ball gets there in less than 1 second.There is no way that is true."

If I showed you and everyone else a piece of video in a link where there were several one second exchanges would admit you are wrong?

[MasterTS]

If I showed you and everyone else a piece of video in a link where there were several one second exchanges would admit you are wrong?

I would like to see the video, Mr. Yandell.

[Mike Cottrill]

You wrote this:

"On many of the pro rallys today the players are 2-6 feet behind the baseline, you are telling me the ball gets there in less than 1 second.There is no way that is true."

If I showed you and everyone else a piece of video in a link where there were several one second exchanges would admit you are wrong?

John,
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]John,

Opps, used standard length for fence to fence instead of baseline to baseline. Fixed and recalculated.

If the ball goes 90’ in one second ( 6’ behind the baseline for both players). That is 0.01704 miles. That would mean an average of 61mph. That is one heck of a ground stroke but with in reason for a drive shot. AA/Fed/Blake surely could do it.

Right on the base line: 78’ ~53mph. This is reasonable for hard hitters..

90’ ~~ 2 seconds: 31mph Average (sounds like a backhand exchange).
90’ ~~ 1.5 seconds: 41mph. Average Very reasonable for forehand exchanges.

Longer than that is seems like moon balls.

So, as expected, I agree with John.
Mike

[JohnYandell]

Sure as soon as what's his name agrees to admit he's wrong and refrain from making knowingly unfactual posts. I already know I'm correct. (As does any reasonably intelligent person who has done a little research.) I need incentive beyond that.

Mike!

Check your assumption there! The distance between the baselines is 78 feet not 132 feet!

John

[Mike Cottrill]

Sure as soon as what's his name agrees to admit he's wrong and refrain from making knowingly unfactual posts. I already know I'm correct. (As does any reasonably intelligent person who has done a little research.) I need incentive beyond that.

Mike!

Check your assumption there! The distance between the baselines is 78 feet not 132 feet!

John

Opps, I will fix and recalculate. Brain went dead.

[Bungalo Bill]

No need to cut others down because there is confusion between you two. Just say what you know and avoid berating others when they disagree with you and you will appear much wiser.

What I know is TLM does not know what he is talking about. I have a right to my opinion even if I am adamant about it.

Plus, who are you to say something? If I can remember, you are one of the worst!

If someone posts false claims he is going to hear about it and TLM posted falsely. You will hear about it too if you do as well.

Plus, out of the thousands of posts, why would you care about me appearing wiser? Say what you mean Kevhen. I can't tell you how many times you have posted lame ideas and we went round and round. It doesn't matter to you if someone tells you something that has wisdom in it. You will continue to antagonize. Remember the debate on the results in doubles? Even with clear facts, you still insisted that the two-back formation was the cat's meow. So where does wisdom take us there? If you are smart, you would see it leads to an argument.

Arguments are part of the game around here. If you aim your words towards someone - aim it. Quit hiding behind your Mother's skirt.

[kevhen]

I am not sure what you mean by that Bill, but I will try to stop hiding behind my mother's skirt.

[Bungalo Bill]

I am not sure what you mean by that Bill, but I will try to stop hiding behind my mother's skirt.

Good. Stay there.

[JohnYandell]

Mike,

If you've watched ESPN they show the shot spot measurements for ball speed now on all the shots. Forehands are reaching into the 90mph and up range off the racket. That's now common and normal.

Several years ago (and as reported in detail in articles on Tennisplayer) we measured the same things and also the deceleration using 2 camera video footage. Basically the average shot loses about 1/2 its speed between the players, and you are probably right about the average speeds.

Very roughly, 90mph goes to about 60mph just before the bounce, and then to around 45 or 40mph at the time of the opponent's hit.

You have about 1/3 of your total time after the bounce, or about 1/3 of a second which is why the after the bounce preparation theory is so ridiculous.

[looseswing]

Wow just read through this entire thread again and I must say thanks for the insight, especially BB and John Yandell. I really appreciate it and I am sure that it will help others a well!

[Bungalo Bill]

Wow just read through this entire thread again and I must say thanks for the insight, especially BB and John Yandell. I really appreciate it and I am sure that it will help others a well!

John and yourself have certainly more patience than I with people that insist and try to come up with various reasons that pros do not prepare early.

Most of a prospective players training revolves around preparation. So much of the drilling, the exercise, the mental training, to help a want-to-be-professional player move quick enough, react fast enough, see clear enough, and become strong enough to keep up with today's demanding game all centers around early preparation.

Players that want to think they can waltz into a shot often are late in their preparation even though they may have hit the ball on the other side of the net. They think that all they have to do is judge with their eyes the ball bounce and it "happens naturally". Sorry! Doesn't work that way.

Over the course of a match, with all the balls that are hit, a player must drill and engrain early preparation. Early preparation is a skill. It is developed, it is maintained, it is practiced. It doesn't just happen.

Early preparation involves nearly all the senses. All of them need to be developed along with the physical aspects of movement both from the lower body and the upper body.

A player would be foolish to think that early preparation is not one of thee most important aspects of the professional game as it should be for yours as well.

[Mike Cottrill]

I agree. I was told if you are not preparing at or before the ball crosses the net, you are going to be hitting a defensive shot instead of an offensive shot. Good stuff John. I have not seen the shot spot speed information though.

[Bungalo Bill]

I agree. I was told if you are not preparing at or before the ball crosses the net, you are going to be hitting a defensive shot instead of an offensive shot.

Perfectly said. Every player should be developing their skills to pick up the ball as soon as they can with the ultimate goal being to see it come off the opponents strings. If a player does not understand how important this is, I am afraid they will never rise as high as they could.

[tlm]

Default Modern FH - comments?
The Hands Have It

by Doug King


Old School: Racquet back - step in - follow through : Long, slow, flat, and cramped.
There is no question that the players of today are better than the players of 25 years ago. Quite simply, they are playing a better brand of tennis - hitting the ball much harder and more accurately.

Why this is, seems to be a matter of debate. Some say it is due to advances in racquet technology while others point toward the improvement in the conditioning of the players. No doubt players today are bigger, stronger, and faster, especially on the women's side.

My own opinion is that the biggest advancement in the tennis has to do with the stroking techniques used in the modern game. The fact is, players are hitting the ball differently. Grips have changed, footwork has changed, strokes have changed.

Thirty years ago almost everybody used eastern grips and closed stances, sweeping strokes with long back swings and followthroughs. Today's strokes are based upon leverage and torque rather than back and forth racquet motion. In this article we will examine the use of the hands in the modern stroking style and compare that to traditional stroking styles.


New School: Weight back. Hand grips and turns ball while weight shift is saved to drive ball instead of swing the racquet. Notice the similarity in all positions at contact in the examples cited in text.

Traditionally, groundstrokes have been taught as racquet back, step in, and follow through. The emphasis was on getting the racquet to sweep into and through the ball in a fluid motion. The hand directed the racquet through this sweep and the body was used to increase the momentum of the racquet head through the stroke.

Look at Connors' forehand above to see the classic "Old School" form. The racquet shoots to the back fence on the backswing. The weight is shifted to the front foot (the non-hitting side) putting the body in a forward lean in front of the hands. The body is dragging the racquet forward but getting in the way of the hands at contact making the follow through cramped. The overall swing is slow and push like. The hit is very flat making it difficult to hit through the ball with confidence.


Today's stroke is characterized by the weight staying back behind the hand and ball at contact. The weight is saved and used as the primary power source of the ball while the racquet is used to create connection and hold of the ball. The hand and racquet are essentially catching, holding, and turning the ball allowing the ball to receive the force of the body shift. The racquet is NOT doing the "hitting". The roles of the body and the racquet have fundamentally been reversed.

In the modern game, the swing of the racquet is minimized. The result is better contact between the racquet and the ball - that translates into less slapping into and pulling off the ball and fewer off center hits. The hand positions the racquet to the ball and allows a leveraged drive and turn of the ball initiated with the body. It is very similar to grabbing a door knob and twisting the knob and opening the door at the same time.

There are two basic turns of the ball that produce the two fundamental spins - topspin and backspin. Think of grabbing the underside of the knob (forehand) and pushing the door open while turning the knob counterclockwise. That is the topspin forehand movement. Underspin is the opposite. The hand is placed on the top of the knob, the door is pulled closed as the knob is turned clockwise.

The Topspin Forehand

Let's look specifically at the topspin forehand stroke. The job of the hand on any stroke is to allow the racquet to establish a connection with the ball. The racquet must be relatively passive as it comes to the ball rather than actively swinging. The hand must almost absorb the ball at contact.


Grip change and loading of right side. Left hand keeps racquet from swinging back too far.
The Take Back?

Evidence of how today's stroke mechanics are minimizing racquet head swing starts with the backswing. Notice how the racquet does not “swing“ back. The left hand holds the racquet head in front as the shoulder and right side of the body rotate back. The right side of the body is where the swing is actually produced.

At the start of this movement the right hand is not drawing the racquet back. Instead the hand is getting position on the grip. The hand is turned under the handle in a semi-western position. This will result in the hand achieving the correct position on the ball, allowing a counter clockwise turn of the ball (topspin).

As the swing progresses and the shoulder and right side continue to lift and swing backward and then forward, measures must be taken to insure the swing of the right side does not create excessive swing in the racquet. The racquet head actually decelerates as it approaches contact. This is done by letting the arm fall and compress into the body just before the hit.

As this happens the racquet head falls and folds back building torque into the forearm and right side while decelerating the racquet head as it achieves position underneath the ball. This movement brings the arm into a position of strength and takes the momentum out of racquet head so the racquet can connect with the ball rather than hit at the ball.


Arm drops and compresses into body creating strong, correct position of body to hand. Forearm rotates to drop racquet head below ball and build torque into forearm and shoulder.
The Drop and Deceleration

By the time the racquet actually goes into the hit, almost all of the momentum has been eliminated from the racquet head. Instead it is the lift and thrust of the right side of the body that drives the racquet through the ball.

The wrist is laid back and remains in this position through contact. Contact is solidly in front and well connected to the body resulting in maximum stability and efficient weight transfer from body to ball. This is where the ball is absorbed into this pocket of flex centered on the front of the right hip. The slower racquet stays in the contact and produces tremendous “grip” or “hold” on the ball.

Through contact the hand turns the ball through the release of torque in the forearm. This turn does two things; it allows the racquet to adjust it's angle to the ball and it also adds to the power of the stroke as it turns the racquet in a forward direction. The speed with which the hand produces this rotation controls the amount of spin on the ball. The more active the hand is in putting pressure on the handle, the faster this rotation will occur and the more spin will result.


Racquet head held back and down as body moves forward into contact. Racquet absorbs ball initially while energy remains in the forearm for the next move.
Sometimes mis-hits will occur from grabbing too fast (getting hurried or anxious). This may also happen when the ball is misjudged and the racquet has to make a quick and big adjustment to the ball for contact resulting in too much speed in the racquet head. As the hand stays more passive, keeping the racquet head back and down, it will allow the racquet to drive through the ball more resulting in a more powerful, flatter hit.

The Finish

When the ball leaves the strings, the racquet finishes its counter clockwise rotation as the right side continues its drive forward. The racquet still has little momentum although the racquet head will increase in speed as the resistance of the ball through contact is removed.

The racquet does not swing forward much but instead completes the turn and then “dies” over on the left side (usually around the hip). It is the right elbow and shoulder that actually finish in front. The lower follow through is another indication that the racquet head does not have the momentum. If the racquet is “swinging” it will tend to pull the arm up and wrap it around the neck over the left shoulder.


Forearm releases energy in the form of a turning of the ball. This turn adds to the power coming from the drive of the body evidenced by the right elbow and shoulder in front of hand at finish.


You can see that this method is in direct contradiction with traditional stroke concepts. Emphasis should not be put on getting the racquet to go back or to follow through. This puts the emphasis on the swing of the racquet. Even the “experts” on television talk about racquet acceleration not realizing the counterproductive messages they are conveying to the playing public. The body is what is doing the swinging and the hands are trying to get the racquet to “connect” to the ball.


Body and hand in perfect position to ball. Hand does not swing at but rather connects to and turns ball as the body drives it forward.
Any attempt to swing your arm at the ball will simply shoot the ball forward with little control or power, and much shock to the arm. It is this precise outcome that is created by the traditional stroke pattern which is also responsible for the high incidence of tennis elbow injuries. Since the pros have incorporated the new stroke patterns into their games, the incidence of tennis elbow has all but disappeared.

Thanks kehven for your input, i do think that preparing+backswing are 2 different things.My question for the self proclaimed experts on tennis is would doug king be classified as an idiot also?

[Bungalo Bill]

My question for the self proclaimed experts on tennis is would doug king be classified as an idiot also?

No you are an idiot (using your words from a "so-called expert") since you brought it up. Doug King would agree with what we are trying to tell you because he also sees it. But you want to continue mixing things up instead of acknowledging what we are saying.

Doug King himself would tell you that the article needed further explanation as I emailed him personally asking him to explain himself on a few things. Doug King knows his stuff, so please don't tell me that he believes what you believe. You have no clue. Doug King does.

Preparing the racquet still happens before the bounce. Dont get confused with the drop of the racquet and the forward swing of the racquet. Prepare the racquet early - period.

Time to put it to bed:

For all to plainly see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1bKZLwTpV4. This beginning position you see Federer in IS RACQUET PREPARATION. It doesn't get any clearer then this.

Press the second button to reset the video at the beginning of sequence - it will pause. Where is the racquet BEFORE the bounce? Where is the ball? Did Fed prepare his racquet BEFORE, DURING, or AFTER the bounce of the ball? Did Fed change his grip? Is Fed ready to drop his racquet and execute his forward swing? Is he in position to hit the ball BEFORE the bounce? Is he, is he, is he, is he...

For everyone that "gets it". Prepare early and practice your preparation skills. It is a huge key to successful tennis playing as you advanced. There is simply not enough time to do it any other way.

And remember, if the pros truly followed Wegners crap, you would see Federer doing it here on this easy ball but he doesn't does he.

[tlm]

BB, i dont know why you have to get so pissed off,you say i am mixing things up?By changing my grip+turning slightly to one side or the other i am preparing+i never said that you cant do that early.

Please show me were i said that, i agree that your preperation should be done early.Just because i am prepared does not mean that my backswing starts right after preperation.

Preparing means getting ready it does not mean starting backswing, depending on the pace of the ball is what dictates when swing begins.

Again if it is a high paced ball you barely get to in time then you have to prepare+swing instantly.But if it is a slow paced ball i will be prepared long before backswing begins, i dont see what is so hard to understand about that.

[Bungalo Bill]

BB, i dont know why you have to get so pissed off,you say i am mixing things up?By changing my grip+turning slightly to one side or the other i am preparing+i never said that you cant do that early.

Why??????? LOL, you have got to be kidding. Have you read anything I have wrote on racquet preparation?

Please show me were i said that, i agree that your preperation should be done early.Just because i am prepared does not mean that my backswing starts right after preperation.

Like I said, you dont have a clue what we are talking about. Even after clarification on what racquet preparation is you still deny it.

Preparing means getting ready it does not mean starting backswing, depending on the pace of the ball is what dictates when swing begins.

See Federer above, that is getting the racquet back and prepared. Then read all the posts trying to clarify it for you. Now do you see why I get mad? People are spreading things that are not true. It is the clear reason Wegner would not answer my question because I was prepared to quote Braden (of all people) and take away his false claim of "figuring" how pros prepare.

[tlm]

Hey bb, i think you screwed up you should have watched the rest of the video.

On the second forehand of feds he is holding the racquet in front of him at the time the ball bounces+then he starts his swing after the bounce which is clear as day.

Thank you for proving my point of what happens on a ball that there is time to set up on.This must not have been one of those one second shots.

[Mike Cottrill]

Hey bb, i think you screwed up you should have watched the rest of the video.

On the second forehand of feds he is holding the racquet in front of him at the time the ball bounces+then he starts his swing after the bounce which is clear as day.

Thank you for proving my point of what happens on a ball that there is time to set up on.This must not have been one of those one second shots.
ummm, look again. I don't think that ball ever bounced ;)

[Bungalo Bill]

Hey bb, i think you screwed up you should have watched the rest of the video.

tlm, please dont tell me you still don't understand.

On the second forehand of feds he is holding the racquet in front of him at the time the ball bounces+then he starts his swing after the bounce which is clear as day.

The second shot the ball never bounces - it is a swinging volley. So, in essence, Federer prepared his racquet, backswing, and forward swing BEFORE the bounce. :) I really hate doing this to you but you are asking for it.

Thank you for proving my point of what happens on a ball that there is time to set up on.This must not have been one of those one second shots.

What point! what about the first video that clearly is in opposition to your point! That is the true video of what we are talking about! I hope now people can see why I post the way I do. It is plain as day, but Wegnerites (in their coma like state) still do not want to acknowledge it. PLAIN AS DAY!!!

But because it is plain as day, that preparation happens before the bounce, I will be nice to you and say that at times you can prepare as the ball bounces, however, this is not the rule - it is an exception based on certain balls which you are making it seem it is the norm. It is not. The standing rule will always be to prepare before the bounce of the ball. It is proven over and over again on film.

[tlm]

The second shot is a swinging volley, from the baseline?Sure is funny the way the ball is going up on fed, very hard to believe that is not a ball coming off the bounce.

I never said that you never can prepare early i said that depending on the pace of the incoming ball the swing will start at different times, just like your video proves.

[looseswing]

Okay, today I got back from hitting with some players that are a half level above me on the USPTA scale at least, and I must say that TLM as I knew before and as it confirmed today if you take the raquet back around the bounce you are screwed and will end up hitting a very defensive shot. However, when I really concentrated on getting the head back and into position on time to start my swing I hit very cleanly and hit some very good shots. I am sorry buddy, but you are wrong.

[jackson vile]

I think TLM might be confusing racquet preparation with the start of the swing. The pro will have his racquet ready early (back but not all the way back) on short balls but will move in and get in good position before starting the full takeback loop. But the pro does take the racquet back to his preferred side fairly early usually before the ball has bounced or even crossed the net. He may not have started his full takeback loop yet though.

No need to cut others down because there is confusion between you two. Just say what you know and avoid berating others when they disagree with you and you will appear much wiser.


Don't worry about it, that is what he does so that he can feel good about himself, he talks about his opinions but he doesn't like other people to have one.

And when he is wrong you are sure that he will just disapear with tucked tail LOL no honor in that.

I agree say your peace and act like you have an ounce of dignity and maturity.

Notice how you were being totally neutral attempting to keep the post progressive instead of dumbing it down and then he insults you for it:rolleyes:

Sad that one of the oldest members here with a family act so obscenely, he goes really low, once made light of a friend of my in a wheelchair, just plain grose:(

[Bungalo Bill]

Don't worry about it, that is what he does so that he can feel good about himself, he talks about his opinions but he doesn't like other people to have one.

What like misleading ones? Yeah, you are right, I don't like misleading or false comments which you often inform us with.

And when he is wrong you are sure that he will just disapear with tucked tail LOL no honor in that.

And when was I wrong? With you? LOL

I agree say your peace and act like you have an ounce of dignity and maturity.

Should I bring up some of your "dignity" posts?

Notice how you were being totally neutral attempting to keep the post progressive instead of dumbing it down and then he insults you for it:rolleyes:

Actually just tell it to me. I dont mind. But to go round about hiding behind your mothers skirt is a little whimpy isn't it?

Sad that one of the oldest members here with a family act so obscenely, he goes really low, once made light of a friend of my in a wheelchair, just plain grose:(

Sad. I find it equally disturbing that you, when confronted, hold on to ideas even after proven wrong. Dont you find that amusing? LOL

[Bungalo Bill]

The second shot is a swinging volley, from the baseline?Sure is funny the way the ball is going up on fed, very hard to believe that is not a ball coming off the bounce.

Amazing. Don't you see the ball coming OVER the net? lol

I never said that you never can prepare early i said that depending on the pace of the incoming ball the swing will start at different times, just like your video proves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1B9sZenWAw

Pace of the incoming ball. These balls are coming over pretty slow. Based on what we know of preparation, is he prepared BEFORE, DURING, or AFTER the bounce.

[jackson vile]

What like misleading ones? Yeah, you are right, I don't like misleading or false comments which you often inform us with.



And when was I wrong? With you? LOL



Should I bring up some of your "dignity" posts?



Actually just tell it to me. I dont mind. But to go round about hiding behind your mothers skirt is a little whimpy isn't it?



Sad. I find it equally disturbing that you, when confronted, hold on to ideas even after proven wrong. Dont you find that amusing? LOL


Just look at your toes post LOL That was wrong to the Max, even has Revolutionary tennis speak on that, you can jump with your toes pointed up, you lost sorry buddy.

The thing is you sit here bickering and arguing with "KIDS"


State your stance, be a mature man, people will make up their minds.

Heck look at the watching the ball thread, people will believe what they want inspite of the science, studies, ect

We need look no further than many of your coments LOL

You attack Kevhen when he is just simply attempting to calm things down and get it back on track LOL

Do something with your life instead of bullying kids, get a life

[Mahboob Khan]

BB's response is right on. Your backswing should be complete before the ball bounces on your side OR if I would say it differently, "complete your backswing such that you are not rushed by the ball and there is no pause in the swing which means "too early is bad" and, "too late is bad"!

[Bungalo Bill]

Just look at your toes post LOL That was wrong to the Max, even has Revolutionary tennis speak on that, you can jump with your toes pointed up, you lost sorry buddy.

Well gee Vile, anyone knows you can jump with your toes pointing up, that is if you can sustain your own weight over them. Should I bring up the post so everyone can see you are twisting things again? Should I bring up things to embarass you again? Please bring your argument.

I have nothing else to do but to bully you.

[drakulie]

I have heard people say just before the bounce of the ball and others say that you should have it back as soon as you know which way the ball is going. Which one is correct?

It depends, there are lost of factors. Where your court position is, where your opponent hits the ball, the pace etc.

Example # 1:

1. in a neutral cross court rally, you should be taking the racquet back before the bounce.

Example # 2:

2. If you are right-handed, on the ad side and you hit a backhand down the line, and your opponent responds with a sharp angled acute shot to the deuce court you don't want to have your racquet back immediately (even though you already know where it is going). In this case you take your racquet back as you approach the ball.

here is an example: As you can see he is already running to the deuce side of the court, yet his racquet isn't completely back yet, but he is staring the preparation for the takeback.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/runningforehand.jpg

However, rule of thumb, and more often than not, you will want to take the racquet back as early as possible, and immediately before the bounce.

Hope this helps , Good luck.

[tlm]

Okay bb fed is standing there waiting for the ball with a lot of time, because it is a slow paced ball.Why is he not standing there with his racquet back?You have said before to make the takeback as soon as possible, just wonder why he is waiting?

[Bungalo Bill]

Okay bb fed is standing there waiting for the ball with a lot of time, because it is a slow paced ball.Why is he not standing there with his racquet back?You have said before to make the takeback as soon as possible, just wonder why he is waiting?

Here is the dillema that you will have to figure out.

The position shown with Federers first shot is the racquet takeback. His shoulders are turned and therefore his racquet goes back.

Don't you see it is a matter of symantics between us? Can't you see that the "racquet takeback" is the turn of the shoulders, the grip change, etc...? I explained this several posts ago.

It is one reason why I do get upset when Wegner or others (mainly others) paint a picture as if the only person teaching this right is Wegner. Even Wegner knows his followers misunderstand what he is promoting.

This is not new. This is teaching that has been around for a long, long, time.

[Mahboob Khan]

Okay bb fed is standing there waiting for the ball with a lot of time, because it is a slow paced ball.Why is he not standing there with his racquet back?You have said before to make the takeback as soon as possible, just wonder why he is waiting?

If you have too much waiting time because the ball is high and slow it is better to wait in an initial preparatory mode (the position before the backswing); it is not recommended to wait whilst your racket is already back. I said it in my post that too early is bad and too late is bad; time the swing such so that there is no pause in the swing .. I mean do not freeze your racket in the backswing. I can sum up my answer like this:

Take your racket back an instant before the ball bounces on your side;

Take your racket back as the ball bounces on your side.

In either case you have done all the other preparations!

I do not understand the fuss created out of this discussion.

[jackson vile]

If you have too much waiting time because the ball is high and slow it is better to wait in an initial preparatory mode (the position before the backswing); it is not recommended to wait whilst your racket is already back. I said it in my post that too early is bad and too late is bad; time the swing such so that there is no pause in the swing .. I mean do not freeze your racket in the backswing. I can sum up my answer like this:

Take your racket back an instant before the ball bounces on your side;

Take your racket back as the ball bounces on your side.

In either case you have done all the other preparations!

I do not understand the fuss created out of this discussion.


LOL agreed, some people just love to argue to argue LOL good luck to them

[Mahboob Khan]

Good luck.

[JohnYandell]

Boy I'm telling you if we need anymore proof that TLM is a blind idiot--which we don't--his comment about the second ball in the Federer superslow series is priceless.

[muggy]

Yea, I think everyone has a similar feel for what they think should be happening, but they're just arguing about how to describe it.

Some people are just trying to say there's more to it than what the tennis instructor tells every beginner, but they're just saying don't blindly take it back in a way that compromises your balance or your timing.

Some people are saying these people are idiots, because you do need to make sure you are prepared, and they mean just the part where you adjust your grip, turn your body, and turn your racquet.

I think everyone agrees that we need to do these things, we need to do them as early as possible, we need to keep our timing and balance intact, and we all laugh at the notion of jerking your racquet back and forth and running around with it.

All I have to add is that the swing timing is gonna be different for everyone, your swing speed, foot speed, and balance requirements are going to affect it. For example, you might run with less body rotation for balance, and then coil up a little more as you get ready to hit the ball.

[Mahboob Khan]

The only time you may like to "hold" your backswing (freeze whilst your racket is back), is when you like to wrong-foot your opponent. Example: You have hit a forceful crosscourt shot, your opponent has crossed his double alley to return it, now he is hurrying toward the center; this is the time you want to hold to see whether he is holding the line or running toward the center; if he is running toward the center you may like to hit against his movement.

[tlm]

I never said to not prepare as soon as possible, i said that depending on the pace of the incoming ball you dont always start the swing before the bounce.

As far as my comment about the second ball that fed hits, i could not tell that the ball was a volley.So what it was still a real slow moving ball in which fed stands there with an open stance with his left hand on the racquet waiting for the right time to start his swing.

Notice how long he waits to start the swing because it is all one motion.I do not see getting prepared+the backswing as the same thing because they are not.

Muggy makes some good points you are absolutely right when you say that everybody agrees that you should prepare as soon as possible, but as you stated the swing timing is going to be different for everyone+different for the amount of pace the incoming ball has.

If you go to tennisone they have many clips of the pro swings+ you can find them that show the pros on some shots taking racquet back right before the bounce, some right at+most defintely, some after the bounce.

So anybody can take one that fits thier description+ say see it shows what i am saying right here, but they are not showing you the other ones.

I have noticed that depending on the player they all do it a little different,on the rear views is usually the only time you can see the ball bounce.Roddick+blake were 2 that i noticed were waiting until after the bounce to start the backswing, on balls the had plenty of time on.

There is proof of this on tape, so call me an idiot or whatever you want but i have seen the proof of it many times.I dont remember saying anything about the dreaded oscar wegner, there must be some real jealosy of oscar here.

If he doesnt know anything+he is so full of it then why worry about him.I wonder how much money he has made selling tennis videos+teaching tennis compared to the self proclaimed experts on this site.

[JCo872]

I never said to not prepare as soon as possible, i said that depending on the pace of the incoming ball you dont always start the swing before the bounce.

As far as my comment about the second ball that fed hits, i could not tell that the ball was a volley.So what it was still a real slow moving ball in which fed stands there with an open stance with his left hand on the racquet waiting for the right time to start his swing.

Notice how long he waits to start the swing because it is all one motion.I do not see getting prepared+the backswing as the same thing because they are not.

Muggy makes some good points you are absolutely right when you say that everybody agrees that you should prepare as soon as possible, but as you stated the swing timing is going to be different for everyone+different for the amount of pace the incoming ball has.

If you go to tennisone they have many clips of the pro swings+ you can find them that show the pros on some shots taking racquet back right before the bounce, some right at+most defintely, some after the bounce.

So anybody can take one that fits thier description+ say see it shows what i am saying right here, but they are not showing you the other ones.

I have noticed that depending on the player they all do it a little different,on the rear views is usually the only time you can see the ball bounce.Roddick+blake were 2 that i noticed were waiting until after the bounce to start the backswing, on balls the had plenty of time on.

There is proof of this on tape, so call me an idiot or whatever you want but i have seen the proof of it many times.I dont remember saying anything about the dreaded oscar wegner, there must be some real jealosy of oscar here.

If he doesnt know anything+he is so full of it then why worry about him.I wonder how much money he has made selling tennis videos+teaching tennis compared to the self proclaimed experts on this site.

Well making money doesn't mean somebody is an expert or that they are helping people. I'm sure you could find a few examples of that in today's word!

[JohnYandell]

Could you readjust the facts of your story just one more time for our amusement?

Let's see, the Federer footage proved your point on the groundstrokes but then it wasn't really a groundstroke, so let's change the story there. You couldn't tell whether the ball was in the air or had bounced, but we should trust your awesome powers of perception anyway on all your other points.

Let's see, you never said not to prepare early. Seems to me that your whole point is not to prepare until after the bounce. You've made dozens of posts about it. But now you never said that right?

Let's see the overwhelming evidence was against you on the 2-3 second timing theory, so let's just drop that argument for now. But you can always bring it up later like it's true.

Funny thing about those Tennisone clips. I filmed them all myself. So I know what they show. In the overhwhelming majority of cases, the shoulders are fully turned, the left arm is across and the racket is at the top of the backswing or a little past.

So your proof isn't too convincing. It acutally shows the ooposite of what you argue. But that's ok just keep refering to it anyway.

[tlm]

Again i never said to not prepare early, i clearly stated that preparing+the backswing are 2 different things.Were in this discussion did i say to not prepare early?Just one more case of you readjusting the facts+telling lies.

Were was this overwhelming evidence of the 2-3 second timing theory, from you the self proclaimed god of all tennis?Now you say that you filmed all of those tennisone clips+you know what they show.

And now you say in the overwhelming majority of cases, sounds like a little more readjusting going on.I thought it was in every case, what happened to that lie?

You are great at distorting what i said, i have said it at least 3 different times that the takeback happens at different times.Right before bounce, right at bounce, + right after.How many times before it sinks in ,mr readjuster!!

[Mark S. Hogan]

Stay to the high road always. People notice and respect that.

Never create life long enemies as they wait in the grass for that eventual stumble.

Always assume the best of people. Wouldn't it be a grievous error to be wrong the other way?

And finally, being gently wrong causes much less egg on the face when it eventually will happen. As good a reason for being gentle and kind as any. :)

[Bungalo Bill]

Again i never said to not prepare early, i clearly stated that preparing+the backswing are 2 different things.Were in this discussion did i say to not prepare early?Just one more case of you readjusting the facts+telling lies.

Were was this overwhelming evidence of the 2-3 second timing theory, from you the self proclaimed god of all tennis?Now you say that you filmed all of those tennisone clips+you know what they show.

Wow, John Yandell is "self-proclaimed" as well. Is this the default insult when someone has someone else by the nagas? If so, I am in great company! lol

I think your issue is that you bring up stuff to counter evidence, go on with your analysis to discount better evidence, and then turn around and say that you were on our side all the time. Kind of hard to accept this stuff tlm.

And now you say in the overwhelming majority of cases, sounds like a little more readjusting going on. I thought it was in every case, what happened to that lie?

The cases John is pointing out is that top teaching pros (those self-proclaimed ones) have already documented that the ball at the pro level travels from baseline to baseline in around one second. It is perhaps a little over one second and can venture beyond that if we get picky. You get picky and start disecting things and make it seem we are either saying the complete opposite and "we don't get it" or you have found this "different" information that changes everything - which it doesn't. It only seems that way to you.

You are great at distorting what i said, i have said it at least 3 different times that the takeback happens at different times.Right before bounce, right at bounce, + right after.How many times before it sinks in ,mr readjuster!!

The bottom-line to it all is early preparation is a good thing. It is important for a player to prepare the racquet early on nearly every shot nearly every time. This is something you can not accept even though overwhellming evidence indicates otherwise. This argument we tried to have with your boy (Wegner). In each case, with proof, he danced around the issue and tried to go into some Scientology stuff. It seems to myself and John that you do the same (except the Scientology stuff). It is the "people of the lie". Several people here talk like you. They invent stuff, come up with weird stuff, turn words around, talk nonsense 99% of the time, and when confronted, buckle and begin to cry.

1. Bottle

2. Jacksonville (probably the most ignorant poster here)

I must say though Bottle is the only one that can take it.

[Bungalo Bill]

Stay to the high road always. People notice and respect that.

Never create life long enemies as they wait in the grass for that eventual stumble.

Awwwwwe, what people can't take a stiff argument? Bring it on I say. Enough of this "politically correct" nonsense. There are two people I like to hit upside the head to wake them up around here. It is fun you should try it some time.

We can always assume the best in people until they demonstrate otherwise. Then it is open game.

[Bungalo Bill]

Let's see the overwhelming evidence was against you on the 2-3 second timing theory, so let's just drop that argument for now. But you can always bring it up later like it's true.

Funny thing about those Tennisone clips. I filmed them all myself. So I know what they show. In the overhwhelming majority of cases, the shoulders are fully turned, the left arm is across and the racket is at the top of the backswing or a little past.

So your proof isn't too convincing. It acutally shows the ooposite of what you argue. But that's ok just keep refering to it anyway.

LOL, I have arguments like this with a couple people here. It is hilarious. You got to love this stuff. I enjoy it immensly.

I like the bashing, the crying, the "self-proclaimed" expert comeback, and the stalking when you know you hit em' hard. Love it. Got one guy here that gets his nagas kicked all the time.

tlm though is not like that. He argues one point and then closes the argument even if it gets heated. Bummer, kind of boring.

[Mark S. Hogan]

Well Bill, I guess you can't have everything and we appreciate your qualities. :)

[Mahboob Khan]

"You should prepare early so that your backswing and overall swing pattern is on time and without any hitch".

Preparing early means: Watching the ball as you hit it, and then watch the ball from your opponent's racket, judge the ball to your FH or BH, move to the ball, so that your backswing is and everything is ready to hit it. All these preparations should be in place when the ball has not crossed your side of the net.

Yes, I agree that "preparation" and "backswing" are two different things. Prepare early so that your backswing is on time so that your swing pattern is one continuous motion so that you stay with momentum.

[Mahboob Khan]

Oh, by the way John Yandell, thank you for uploading my "The Tactical Universe" article. It's great. I have distributed it to all my tennis friends.

BB, I would like to see your input at the Tennisplayer Forum.

The TW forum is quite HOT but the Tennisplayer forum is quite Cold. Why?

[looseswing]

Yes Mahboob I used to get confused with the difference between prep. and backswing, but this thread has made it so much clearer, and now that I really focus on getting turned and being prepared I am on time much more often on hard shots, and it is just thrilling how much hitting farther in front of you can help you hit a solid reply back.

[Mahboob Khan]

I am glad it helped you.

[Mahboob Khan]

If you like my advice send an email to don@tennis-warehouse.com. Don Hightower is the President of the TW but he is unaware of my contributions to the TW forum. Maybe he is too busy to ready these quality threads.

[tlm]

Come on bb i would hate for you to get bored,i never said i was on your side.Again bb in this discussion were did i say to not prepare early?I disagree with you saying that most shots in the pros are 1 second from hit to hit.

I think you better read your boy johns response again bb, he is refering to the early takeback when he talks about the tennisone clips.

I have said it so many times it is obvious that you are avoiding what my point is.I dont think that early preperation+ the backswing are the same thing.Of course you make the grip change as soon as you can, i never once said that was not true.

Lets not try to distort things bb, seems like you are guilty of the same thing you are accusing me of.I have seen it many times were the backswing is not untill after the bounce, i dont give a damn what you or your sidekick say.

All i have to do is watch some of the pro matches i have on tape, when they get a ball they have plenty of time on i watch it in slomo+sure as hell the are waiting till after bounce for the takeback.

I never said they dont prepare early on those same shots because they do.Then you will say i am getting the backswing confused, see when i see the racquet coming back for quite a distance after the bounce i would call that the backswing.

I never said they do this on every shot, usually on the ones they have plenty of time on.Which seemed to me that this kind of time would be similiar to a lot of the amatuer level of play.

[looseswing]

If you like my advice send an email to don@tennis-warehouse.com. Don Hightower is the President of the TW but he is unaware of my contributions to the TW forum. Maybe he is too busy to ready these quality threads.

Done.

[ondray]

Racquet take back starts directly after the split step. Rhythm might vary due to different techniques and styles but it sure starts as soon as you know where the ball is heading to (when the opponent contacts the ball being the ideal situation or when you see the ball leaving the opponent's racquet being the more realistic situation).

[tlm]

Quote:Originally posted by mahboob
Yes, I agree that "preparation" and "backswing" are two different things. Prepararing so that your backswing is on time, so that your swing pattern is one continuous motion so that you stay with momentum.


I agree with you mahboob, that is exactly right prep.+backswing are 2 different things.Preparing early is great, but if you start your backswing to early you wll not have one continuous motion.

That is the part my expert critics dont get, no matter how many times i say it.

[ondray]

Early preparation involves the player turning his/her shoulders. Does the racquet move back when the shoulders are turned? Yes.

[Mahboob Khan]

Early preparation involves the player turning his/her shoulders. Does the racquet move back when the shoulders are turned? Yes.

Yes. But you do not want to turn your shoulders (racket back) too early .. too early so that you have to wait at racket back-shoulder turned position; this is what I call a hitch when the swing will either stop at the top of the loop or the bottom of the loop just prior to forward swing. I see many players do that. All I am saying is that the shoulder-turn-take-back-of the-racket, the upper part of the loop, and the center part that connects the top-bottom loop C, the lower part of the loop, the forward swing, the point of contact, and follow-through, should be one continuous motion. The proper term will be "timely backswing".

[ondray]

Yes. But you do not want to turn your shoulders (racket back) too early .. too early so that you have to wait at racket back-shoulder turned position; this is what I call a hitch when the swing will either stop at the top of the loop or the bottom of the loop just prior to forward swing. I see many players do that. All I am saying is that the shoulder-turn-take-back-of the-racket, the upper part of the loop, and the center part that connects the top-bottom loop C, the lower part of the loop, the forward swing, the point of contact, and follow-through, should be one continuous motion. The proper term will be "timely backswing".

That's a great explanation. An excellent insight to the whole argument.

[JohnYandell]

I Love It.

Here's what you just said:

i have said it at least 3 different times that the takeback happens at different times.Right before bounce, right at bounce, + right after.

And here are a few of your brilliant comments in previous posts:

Quote:

If you see the whole picture they are not taking the racket back until the ball bounces, then it goes back with there swing.



Quote:
watch roddick holding his racket with his left hand on the racket in front of him then the racket goes back with his swing after the ball bounces.



So go ahead and squirm out of this one. I must be distorting your words again right? Or maybe that was someone else falsely posting to make you look like an idiot.

[JohnYandell]

As Mahboob says, the shoulders and body turn immediately and start the racket back, the backswing continues when the hands separate, but the timing of all this is in sink with the timing of the shot.

[Duzza]

When it breaks and it's not your fault. I'm sure they will give you a refund.

[ShooterMcMarco]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMVPoSFPdOI

[Bungalo Bill]

Well Bill, I guess you can't have everything and we appreciate your qualities. :)

LOL, :p

[Bungalo Bill]

Oh, by the way John Yandell, thank you for uploading my "The Tactical Universe" article. It's great. I have distributed it to all my tennis friends.

BB, I would like to see your input at the Tennisplayer Forum.

The TW forum is quite HOT but the Tennisplayer forum is quite Cold. Why?

It is very tough right now. I am working on a Masters degree so my time is limited. TPF has had limited action but I do answer questions when they are directed towards myself.

Plus, with my personality, I think I would upset the folks over there too much and they may not remain a member! :p

[kevhen]

Do players ever start the forward swing before the ball bounces?

When I used to play on a really fast surface it felt like I had to do that on most every shot and last night when playing doubles and standing on the baseline I felt like I was starting my forward swing before the ball bounced as I was taking it on the rise with the ball bouncing about 2-3 feet in front on me.

[Bungalo Bill]

Do players ever start the forward swing before the ball bounces?

Sure. One example is on pick-up shots or when a ball is coming over real fast and they don't have time to setup well, players will deflect the ball back.

When I used to play on a really fast surface it felt like I had to do that on most every shot and last night when playing doubles and standing on the baseline I felt like I was starting my forward swing before the ball bounced as I was taking it on the rise with the ball bouncing about 2-3 feet in front on me.

If you started your forward swing before the ball bounced then you prepared before the ball bounced and your backswing happened before the ball bounced. Most likely you were hitting on the rise. Preparation would be even more important.

[tlm]

To john the legend in his own mind, i am not trying to squirm out of anything.I have said that the takeback happens at different times, depending on the the pace of the shot.

So now you are going to previous posts, i thought we were are on this discussion.But i forgot how you like to readjust things.As far as those quotes go so what, there are plenty of clips that show exactly that.

[Bungalo Bill]

To john the legend in his own mind, i am not trying to squirm out of anything.I have said that the takeback happens at different times, depending on the the pace of the shot.

Geeee tlm, John is a legend. Have you every been invited to speak at the US Open? Quit the crap. If John is a legend in his own mind what does that make you who is arguing with him?

TERMS

1. Preparation: Shoulder turn, racquet goes back with the shoulders, grip change, foot positioning, footwork, ball focus, court positioning, elbow is up, weight loading, both hands are usually on the racquet, etc..

2. Backswing: Racquet drops, racquet gains further extension prior to coming forward, weight prepares to transfer, shoulders prepare to rotate, usually one hand is on the racquet (exception twohanded forehand/backhand), etc.

3. Forward swing: Racquet is pulled forward, wrist extension (flexes back), elbow comes forward, shoulders accelerating in the rotation, elbow continues to lead the arm until it decelerates, arm/wrist accelerates, contact is made, followthrough, etc.

Pros prepare early.

[bribeiro]

bunch of old guys arguing, its hilarious lol.

[Bungalo Bill]

bunch of old guys arguing, its hilarious lol.

Who are you calling old? Bring it on Bri-baby-o

[tlm]

He is the one who likes to make all the smart ass remarks+starts the immature name calling.I guess its okay for him but not me, because he is a legend.Thats a joke legend of what, the tw discussion board.

I thought you said you like a good debate bb?Are there rules on debating with the self proclaimed gods of this site?Like the old saying goes dont dish it out if you cant take it.

I guess you want everybody to just say yes to you+your sidekick no matter what.I have said before i have learned a lot from your posts, but that doesnt mean i have to agree with everything.Plus bb i wouldnt want you to get bored, what would you do if everybody agreed with everything you said.

[jackson vile]

He is the one who likes to make all the smart ass remarks+starts the immature name calling.I guess its okay for him but not me, because he is a legend.Thats a joke legend of what, the tw discussion board.

I thought you said you like a good debate bb?Are there rules on debating with the self proclaimed gods of this site?Like the old saying goes dont dish it out if you cant take it.

I guess you want everybody to just say yes to you+your sidekick no matter what.I have said before i have learned a lot from your posts, but that doesnt mean i have to agree with everything.Plus bb i wouldnt want you to get bored, what would you do if everybody agreed with everything you said.


Don't worry about it, that is just how he makes himself feel better.

That is his karma, good luck to him.

For some people they get old and angry at the world, he enjoys picking on kids and handicapped people:rolleyes:

[JohnYandell]

Yes ! You've said the take back was one way, and then you've said it was opposite way.

And now you say them both together in the same post.

And whatever you say, the clips on tennisone prove your point.

And when you change your point tomorrow the clips will prove that.

Actually you have no idea what you are saying. But no matter what you say, you will be 100% convinced you are right!

You would have been an ideal employee for the ministry of information in George Orwell's novel, 1984.

[drakulie]

You would have been an ideal employee for the ministry of information in George Orwell's novel, 1984.

I don't know about that.

[JohnYandell]

The way "history" worked in the novel was that it was rewritten as convenient to recreate the current view as the previous view.

[drakulie]

John, I remember the book vividly--one of my favorites, right along with We the Living, and Anthem by Ayn Rand. I just don't think tlm could get a job there. He would cause too much confusion--hence, the interviewer would not be able to tell what side he was on, and not be able to trust him.

[JCo872]

Geeee tlm, John is a legend. Have you every been invited to speak at the US Open? Quit the crap. If John is a legend in his own mind what does that make you who is arguing with him?

TERMS

1. Preparation: Shoulder turn, racquet goes back with the shoulders, grip change, foot positioning, footwork, ball focus, court positioning, elbow is up, weight loading, both hands are usually on the racquet, etc..

2. Backswing: Racquet drops, racquet gains further extension prior to coming forward, weight prepares to transfer, shoulders prepare to rotate, usually one hand is on the racquet (exception twohanded forehand/backhand), etc.

3. Forward swing: Racquet is pulled forward, wrist extension (flexes back), elbow comes forward, shoulders accelerating in the rotation, elbow continues to lead the arm until it decelerates, arm/wrist accelerates, contact is made, followthrough, etc.

Pros prepare early.

Awesome description!

See this is the problem I have with Wegner. He is too simple. All those elements BB describe are at play in the pro forehand. If you just say "wait till the last second and find the ball" you are simplifying what is a very specific and sequenced chain of events.

Readers should take notes on BB's description. It is a recipe for a huge forehand.

Jeff

[JohnYandell]

Possibly true, but maybe he already has the job and we are just seeing the fruits of his work, constantly revising the "truth" as if it had never been different.

[Bungalo Bill]

For some people they get old and angry at the world, he enjoys picking on kids and handicapped people:rolleyes:

Well this is the stupidist comment I have ever read. You are the main person I post against because you provide lousey tips.

Why would I pick on kids and especially handicapped kids when I have a kid that is handicapped. Not only is he handicapped but he also has vital organ issues etc...why in the world would you say a stupid thing like that.

Are you some kind of idiot that would say such stupid things like this? What kind of stupid person would say to another that they don't like "handicapped" kids? Have I ever said that to you? Why bring in handicapped kids?

Did you know that I am a huge sponsor of the Special Olympics? Did you now that I led a 600 plus parent group in Southern California supporting Autistic, deaf, and mentally challenged kids to go against one of the biggest school districts in Southern California? Did you know that I influenced the Federal Government and the State government to investigate the districts accounting practices?

Did you know that this effort to help special needs children cost me my job, nearly my home, and definetly my personal time? WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU DONE?

Did you know that I have sat in at least 50 IEP meetings with parents crying because they couldn't get the services their child desperately needs?

Who the frickin hell are you!

[kevhen]

If you can't take it then don't dish it out (calling others idiots that don't agree with you). I agree with Bill on this topic and with many topics but Bill has been wrong in the past and not willing to admit it so it's always good to question him whether he likes it or not.

[Bungalo Bill]

He is the one who likes to make all the smart ass remarks+starts the immature name calling.I guess its okay for him but not me, because he is a legend.Thats a joke legend of what, the tw discussion board.

Well I hardly pay attention to the boards label of a person on how many posts they provide. If that is important to you then that is the way it goes. But if someone does provide good tips time and time again, it says they know something about something. You should respect that at the very least. If someone has been in business for 10 years, you probably would listen to what they had to say.

I thought you said you like a good debate bb?Are there rules on debating with the self proclaimed gods of this site?Like the old saying goes dont dish it out if you cant take it.

Well I think the issue here is you can't take it. Especially when evidence points out that you are not correct. If I had a choice to take a lesson from you or John Yandell, who do you think I would choose? Without a doubt John. He has the credentials, the knowledge, the insight, and is amongst the best coaches in this country. Anyone asked to speak at the US Open as a "heavy hitter" coach, devotes his life to tennis, is an author of tennis books, provides a fantastic website, and is in the "who is who" of tennis does not deserve hearing crap from you.

You are nothing in tennis. You have done nothing except pick up a racquet and try to learn how to hit the ball right. You can't even get your facts straight on what a racquet takeback is!!!!

I guess you want everybody to just say yes to you+your sidekick no matter what.I have said before i have learned a lot from your posts, but that doesnt mean i have to agree with everything.Plus bb i wouldnt want you to get bored, what would you do if everybody agreed with everything you said.

Actually I don't want people to say yes. But when I know I got the questin right and you come in with the wrong answer, you bet I am going to defend and support my claim. In the end you will either run away like a crying baby (which you are doing now) or you will humbly accept you are flat out wrong. Either way, I am going to make sure that tennis players receive the right information irregardless of your feelings.

It is just the way it is. I think if you are going to claim others said mean things to you, I think you need to not imply, suggest, or blatantly say mean things to others. Your words "so-called expert" is your version of what you claim to be against! lol

[Bungalo Bill]

but Bill has been wrong in the past and not willing to admit it so it's always good to question him whether he likes it or not.

LOL, when, what, and with who? Are you pointing to the claims of your two-back formation? Should we search and show that I provided evidence that supported my claim? There is not one time I have wrong.

Oh wait, yes, there was one time. It was a rule thing (I am not good with rules). We were interpreting a rule and I supported one side while others supported another. In the end my side lost. A rule interpretation. LOL

If you notice I do not venture into areas I do not know. I rarely leave this board to other boards at TW. Why? Because I don't know those things, so why pretend. Does that say something? It says that I will not create arguments on topics I don't know. I WILL LISTEN TO THE "SELF-PROCLAIMED EXPERTS" BECAUSE THEY KNOW MORE THAN ME. I DO NOT JUDGE THAT THEY NEED TO BE RIGHT EVERYTIME. I RESPECT THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND AM SUBORDINATE TO THEM. I WILL ASK CHALLENGING QUESTIONS BUT IF THEY PROVIDE A LOGICAL EXPLANATION I WILL ACCEPT IT IN MY DATA BANKS. PERIOD.

I am not like you, Jacksonvile or tlm who doesn't have a clue but wants to argue with those that do!

[Andy270211]

I have an early take back.

My arms kinda too weak to do a full rotation fast enough.

[kevhen]

You said that you should only play two back when you have a strong return game. That was totally wrong. If you have a strong return, then your partner should play up and poach off the weak counter to your strong return if it even comes back.

The time to play two back is when your return is weak. That way your partner is not a sitting duck on the service line and there isn't a huge hole between you that the netman can hit into. If the opponent has a great serve, or you have a weak return, or the opposing netman is successfully poaching too often, those are the times to play two back and play defense when the opponent's offensive is overwhelming your 1 up formation.

Funny how in your own mind, you are never wrong, Bill.

[Mahboob Khan]

In doubles, on their serves if your opponents are great in attacking the net then both the receiver and his partner should be back on the baseline! The tactic in this situation is to return the serve and then on a shorter ball go to the net. However, if the receiver is great in returning serve and his partner has good volleys then his partner should be up!

[JohnYandell]

Uh, just to state the obvious, arguing over the take back and exposing the flaws and contradictions in the claims of others is different than picking on children and handicapped people.

Not too cool when you are talking about someone who has actually devoted part of his life to trying to help them.

I say let's confine the insults to people's failings when it comes to tennis knowledge.

[kevhen]

"I say let's confine the insults to people's failings when it comes to tennis knowledge."

Why insult anyone at all? State what you know or/and believe and leave out the insults.

[limitup]

It's been said several times but I think people are still missing the fact that the unit turn and the takeback are two different things. A proper unit turn involves rotating your entire upper body - but with little or no separate movement of your arms. So yes as you turn your arms are moving with the rest of your upper body, and your racquet is thus moving "back", but that is technically not "taking the racquet back". The original poster's question was "when should you take your racquet back". Think about it ...

[JohnYandell]

Well said on the unit turn, but the argument over many endless posts has been about holding the racket in front, stalking etc, no racket movement. Don't prepare til after the bounce, etc.

I agree with you that if people understood the unit turn and the relationships between the body movement and the racket movement there would be more good forehands in the world and less wasted words on the TW boards.

[Bungalo Bill]

"I say let's confine the insults to people's failings when it comes to tennis knowledge."

Why insult anyone at all? State what you know or/and believe and leave out the insults.

But people do state what they know and many times it is more than you know. Often you want to antanganize, mention indirect insults, bring up things that fuel the fire, etc...even when someone shows you over and over again that you are wrong. Quit being a hypocrite!!

[Bungalo Bill]

You said that you should only play two back when you have a strong return game. That was totally wrong. If you have a strong return, then your partner should play up and poach off the weak counter to your strong return if it even comes back.

The time to play two back is when your return is weak. That way your partner is not a sitting duck on the service line and there isn't a huge hole between you that the netman can hit into. If the opponent has a great serve, or you have a weak return, or the opposing netman is successfully poaching too often, those are the times to play two back and play defense when the opponent's offensive is overwhelming your 1 up formation.

Funny how in your own mind, you are never wrong, Bill.

Kevhen,

Are you for real? Are you making up things? Want to go back and read the posts more carefully? Again, you dont know what you are talking about, you are only a 3.5 Iowa player! Which translates to a 3.0 California player!!!!

[jackson vile]

But people do state what they know and many times it is more than you know. Often you want to antanganize, mention indirect insults, bring up things that fuel the fire, etc...even when someone shows you over and over again that you are wrong. Quit being a hypocrite!!


Grow up and give it a rest, I'm tired of seeing threads that you have ruined.

Be an adult and get over it, move on with your life, have a life this does no one any good:eek:

[Dedans Penthouse]

Moral of story:

When you are pissed off and really want to make a point, think: Maroon
:-)

That said, back to the "forehand" swing: I keep reading about "elbow comes forward" and especially "elbow continues to LEAD the arm." I'm trying to conceptualize (and incorporate correctly) but I'm having trouble visualizing the elbow "leading" the lower arm in particular; i.e. (to state the obvious) the forearm doesn't bend--the elbow and hand travel pretty much on the same plane, no? Could you "three" (Mahboob, John, B.B.) clear that up for me and possibly describe it in further detail......alternate words? many thanks upfront.

Also, one other thing for the Wergnerites: if the backswing is related to the bounce, does a player run the risk of "establishing his/her rhythm based off the bounce" which would be OK if the ball were to land, e.g. 10 feet short of the baseline....but what of the ball that lands a foot inside the baseline? In Wegner's world of "tracking the ball" with the racquet UNTIL the bounce, wouldn't a person's "rhythm" possibly get screwed up; i.e. having to hurry up and unrhythmically lurch into the foreward portion of the swing? thanks again.

[kevhen]

http://national.usta.com/leagues/reports/NTRP/SearchResults.asp?Search=Name&LastName=henriksen&FirstName=kevin&SearchType=X&submit2=+Go+

Bill, you seem to lack listening skills as I have showed in the past my 4.0 rating with results. As you have been wrong in the past about certain tennis strategies like when to play two back, you are wrong here again in your post of my rating. How many mistakes do you have to make before you realize you are still human?

[jackson vile]

http://national.usta.com/leagues/reports/NTRP/SearchResults.asp?Search=Name&LastName=henriksen&FirstName=kevin&SearchType=X&submit2=+Go+

Bill, you seem to lack listening skills as I have showed in the past my 4.0 rating with results. As you have been wrong in the past about certain tennis strategies, you are wrong here again in your post of my rating.


Kev don't even sweat it man, that is how he is, he had some really dumb ideas about rackets that was posted on this forum also.

He did not admit anything just kept trying to argue same as other things, the point is you are wasting your time on a person that does not deserve it.

If BB did not act like this he could be much much more helpful and a lot more people would take to him, but these actions only drive people away.

Don't end up like that, enjoy life and when one of these guys come around just take the high road, don't fall into their trap.

The thing to remember here is that tennis is concepts and theory, there are no laws. What is strange today is tomarrows new technique LOL Tennis is ever evolving, use what works and leave it at that, if what you say works for you then great.

You could have god come back you up and it still would not matter LOL


Just sit back and let him reap his karma LOL:mrgreen:

[limitup]

the forearm doesn't bend--the elbow and hand travel pretty much on the same plane, no?

The forearm doesn't bend but the wrist sure does. If you lay your wrist back the elbow will lead the hand and racquet.

As far as Wegner, his "methods" work for a lot of BEGINNERS. He does have a way of really simplifying things for a beginner. When I first got started I was really overwhelmed by all of the stuff I had to try to remember to do correctly, so I was intrigued by Wegners stuff. I watched his videos and said "yeah that makes sense" and it helped me get started. 6 months later I went back and watched some of the videos again and I couldn't believe how much they over-simplify things. Anyway, I think the best thing about Wegners methods is that it can help some people get through the initial "pick up a racquet and be able to hit the ball over the net more than once or twice" phase and hopefully not lose interest in tennis because it really is a very difficult and technical game. That's why it isn't more popular ... because 9 out of 10 people who try it give up because it's too "hard". I think this is where Wegner can help some people.

[Bungalo Bill]

http://national.usta.com/leagues/reports/NTRP/SearchResults.asp?Search=Name&LastName=henriksen&FirstName=kevin&SearchType=X&submit2=+Go+

Bill, you seem to lack listening skills as I have showed in the past my 4.0 rating with results. As you have been wrong in the past about certain tennis strategies like when to play two back, you are wrong here again in your post of my rating. How many mistakes do you have to make before you realize you are still human?

Actually I wasn't wrong. You should look up that I did support the two-back formation when players had a strong ground game, or if they had weak returns, or if they had weak serves, etc...read it again Mr. Brilliant!

The argument was whether the two-back formation was superior overall then the both up formation. We argued this and you brought up the Olympic case as your lame evidence. Then I provided TOURNAMENT evidence and BLEW YOU AWAY. Remember Mr. Selective Memory?

Afterwards, your little mind began spinning and creating your own little 3.0 world. Get it together man!

You are a 3.0 player in california standards and you always will be.

[kevhen]

I just don't like when he attacks individual posters with insults like he was doing here. He does it to a lot of people to 'quiet' them so that his view is the prevailing view whether wrong or right as he tries to intimidate by belittling others. I think it is pathetic and will always speak up when I see it happening. Most of the time he gives great advice but there is no one perfect way to play tennis so he might learn something if he listened more to differing views than just calling them idiots.

[kevhen]

You initially said that two back should only be used if you were excellent returners, but then you eventually changed your views and I agree with what you say above.

"I did support the two-back formation when players had a strong ground game, or if they had weak returns, or if they had weak serves" but this was not your original stance and you belittled me for about 7 internet pages before we finally found common ground.

What was the purpose of you calling me or anyone else an idiot or hiding behind my mother's apron or anything else of a derogatory nature? Are you so unhappy with your life that enjoy putting other people down?

[Bungalo Bill]

I agree with what you say above.


Oh geeez, blah-blah-blah-blah

[kevhen]

Well thanks for saying I am a 3.0 Californian. At least I have a rating then.

[Bungalo Bill]

Well thanks for saying I am a 3.0 Californian. At least I have a rating then.

Yeah, I meant women's 3.0.

I have been in Idaho for 6 months now and the tennis players out here rate themselves at 4.0 (or whatever) would get spanked by 4.0 players in California. Just no comparison. So far, I have only seen a few players that are actually rated as they should be. I will say though that Coach Patton is doing a fine job at Boise State.

You have to always keep perspective, when you live in Iowa, you are not the "hopping" tennis capitol of the world. LOL

[kevhen]

Yeah I will try to keep some perspective and look forward to playing competitive tennis with some 3.0 California ladies if I ever get out there. Do you realize you are still using putdowns?

I did play a guy last week who was rated 25th this spring in the Central Region amongst D3 schools and the #1 rated school was from the Central Region so maybe it's not such a weak region. He was extremely consistent (strong 4.5, maybe weak 5.0) but I held my own against him in doubles taking the match to 3 sets.

You should play a USTA match in Idaho now since it sounds like you would dominate there. Please post it for us to see.

http://www.itatennis.com/Div3Rankings/d3men_3_20_06.htm

[Bungalo Bill]

Do you realize you are still using putdowns?

LOL, to you? YES!!!! Always will

[kevhen]

Why? What purpose does it serve?

[tlm]

To limitup, thank you this is what i have been saying in this discussion.I never said to not prepare early, i said depending on the pace of the incoming ball you dont always start the backswing early.

Just like you said just because you turn does not mean that you are making the backswing. There is a difference i thought the experts would know that.At least there is someone who can think for themselves+ see reality.

Now here is another perfect example of johnny boy telling lies.Were in this thread did i say to not prepare before the bounce john?I said many times that preparing early+making backswing are 2 different things.

Now i also said something about stalking?Lie #2, Where did i say no racquet movement?Lie#3, the only thing i said about holding the racquet in front was in the video of fed he was waiting for the slow pace ball with the racquet in front holding it with both hands.


Which was an example of waiting for backswing on a slow paced ball so the whole swing is one motion.I know you made fun of me because i didnt know it was a volley, but that really had nothing to do with the fact that he was waiting with racquet in front with both hands on the racquet before backswing.

The only thing i said about the bounce was on slower paced balls i have seen it many time the pros will not make thier backswing until after the bounce.Just another example of out right lies, i never said once in this discussion that you cant prepare before the bounce.

Even though i am called an idiot+dummy+many other things, i do know that there is a difference between preparing+ the backswing.I am glad to see that limitup can see this also.It is funny how limitup can say the same thing i have been saying, and johnny boy agrees with him.

Okay john show me where in this thread that i have stated these lies you just told.

[JohnYandell]

Quote tlm:

"watch roddick holding his racket with his left hand on the racket in front of him then the racket goes back with his swing after the ball bounces. "

This was your strident gospel for numerous posts inspite of everything factual to the contrary.

Oh wait a minute, that was in another thread, right, so that doesn't count, right?

Now in your last couple of posts, it sounds as if you actually have finally learned something about the forehand preparation, but I guess your point is you knew it all along right and that was what you were always saying, right?

Why not just say something like: OK I wasn't seeing the whole picture and I was probably wrong about holding the racket out front and preparing all at once after the bounce, and now I understand it better, because even though it took 500 posts by others, I actually learned something."

Somehow I don't think we'll be seeing that admission.

[bribeiro]

yandell, can you gimme a discount? 20 bucks a month is too expensive for me.

[tlm]

How did i know that you would go to other posts?Because you had to, you cant find evidence in this thread to back up your distortions.But that is how you operate twisting what someone says.

I bet you looked back through every post in this thread+realized you couldnt find where i said what you claimed.So of course being there is no proof of what your claims were in this thread, you go to past threads.

In the quote about roddick i was talking about a video clip of him hitting a sitter+yes he was holding the racquet with his left hand in front of him+waitng for the proper time to start his swing.

But like i said that was not in this thread, so why is that used against me?Look i play tennis everyday+ i am always trying to improve, i do know that you should prepare as soon as possible.

Also the better i get+the better players i face i know that everthing happens faster, so i definitely understand about preparing quickly.In pickup matches i play players that are rated higher than me 90% of the time, the other 10% of the matches are againt players of my level or a little below.

I Know there is a big difference in the amount of time i have against the better players.Usually when going from one to the other on back to back days you have to get used to the different pace.

I agree though that it doesnt matter what pace you are receiving when it comes to preperation, prepare right away.But against the lesser ranked players i get a lot of slo paced sitters+ i have found if i start my swing to soon i will be to early.

The same holds true the other way if i dont start my swing early enough against the better players i am late.There are a couple of hard hitters i play against+if i havent played them in a while, it takes me almost the first set before i am timing my swing fast enough.

So in prior posts if i said i didnt think you need to prepare early, i was wrong but i know i did not say that in this discussion.In this thread i meant the backswing not the prep.Like someone else stated if you turn at all the racquet does move back some, but that is not what i call the backswing.

[JohnYandell]

tlm,

You're alright afterall. I think the big point besides time is the coiling, which equals leverage and power. Try stretching that left arm out straight all the way toward the sideline. You'll feel a huge difference.

john

[tlm]

Thanks john, i think there was some misunderstanding in this discussion. I wont deny that in prior threads i was not giving early preperation enough merit.

Are you talking about when the swing begins to stretch the left arm out to the sideline so it is even with you during contact?I have never payed to much attention to what my left arm does, but i think i end up whipping it behind me.

[JohnYandell]

No at the completion of the shoulder turn, top of the backswing on a medium pace ball around the middle.

[Bungalo Bill]

Why? What purpose does it serve?

It bugs you. I like that.

[Bungalo Bill]

"OK I wasn't seeing the whole picture and I was probably wrong about holding the racket out front and preparing all at once after the bounce, and now I understand it better, because even though it took 500 posts by others, I actually learned something."

Somehow I don't think we'll be seeing that admission.

LOL!!!!

[kevhen]

Then you are not being helpful but are being something else.

[Mahboob Khan]

Yesterday I was hitting with my daughter, Sarah Mahboob Khan, who hits quite hard and fast. In particular, I was paying attention to my backswing, "when do I take my backswing?". Although the prep process started as she hits the ball, my backswing and everything else was complete, or should have been complete, before the ball bounced on my side. I woud sum it like this:

-- An instant before your opponent hits the ball, you split step, watch the ball, judge its speed/height/ depth/ direction, move to the ball, and take the racket back before the ball bounces on your side of the court ..

-- As the ball bounces on your side, you start your forward swing so that you meet the ball out in front, and follow-through... in such a way that there is no hitch in the overall swing pattern.

If I want to wrong-foot my opponent, then I might slow down my loop, or stop my racket at top of the loop, judge which my opponent is moving, and then hit behind him.

I hope this helps.

[JCo872]

Yesterday I was hitting with my daughter, Sarah Mahboob Khan, who hits quite hard and fast. In particular, I was paying attention to my backswing, "when do I take my backswing?". Although the prep process started as she hits the ball, my backswing and everything else was complete, or should have been complete, before the ball bounced on my side. I woud sum it like this:

-- An instant before your opponent hits the ball, you split step, watch the ball, judge its speed/height/ depth/ direction, move to the ball, and take the racket back before the ball bounces on your side of the court ..

-- As the ball bounces on your side, you start your forward swing so that you meet the ball out in front, and follow-through... in such a way that there is no hitch in the overall swing pattern.

If I want to wrong-foot my opponent, then I might slow down my loop, or stop my racket at top of the loop, judge which my opponent is moving, and then hit behind him.

I hope this helps.

Mahboob,

Yes this is very helpful. One more question for you. You say "meet the ball" out in front. Do you find that you power through the ball from contact on, or do you try to get as much racket speed as possible going into contact?

If you say "meet the ball" I would interpret that as getting good contact with the strings and ball first and then work on acceleration from around contact on. This is what I feel to be honest. I get good position and connection between ball in strings in front of my body, and then accelerate. What is your take on "racket head" speed? When do you try to generate it? How do you get a balance between getting racket head speed, but still getting good connection between the sweet spot of your racket and the ball?

I find that many people try to swing very fast, but don't get the ball and strings to meet properly in front of their body. So they are getting a fast moving racket, but during impact things aren't aligned properly and they don't get the great spring off the racket that "meeting" the ball in the sweetspot gives you.

I'm very curious on your take on this.

Jeff

[Mahboob Khan]

OK. In this process, I sort of foresee/pre-establish the contact point i.e. waist high or chest high. Once I make this determination about the contact point, I accelerate my racket from the lower part of the loop .. through contact .. and everything else such as follow-through is the result of everything that occurred before and through contact. In other word the follow through will take care of itself! I think it's too late to accelerate your racket from the point of contact only; the acceleration should start prior to contact as I stated so that the swing is non-jerky!

[JCo872]

OK. In this process, I sort of foresee/pre-establish the contact point i.e. waist high or chest high. Once I make this determination about the contact point, I accelerate my racket from the lower part of the loop .. through contact .. and everything else such as follow-through is the result of everything that occurred before and through contact. In other word the follow through will take care of itself! I think it's too late to accelerate your racket from the point of contact only; the acceleration should start prior to contact as I stated so that the swing is non-jerky!

Thanks! I agree as well that there is acceleration prior to contact, of course.

[Mick]

let us observe at what point Bjorn Borg would take his racquet back.

It looks to me like he would take his racquet back when the ball bounces on the court or a bit earlier .

[Mark S. Hogan]

I just watched Click and think I see what's going on now. For me, I see the opponent hitting the ball and a half an instant later it's bouncing right in front of me. I don't have time for the 12 step progams. You guys have one of them remote controllers that slows everything down for ya. :)

[bribeiro]

let us observe at what point Bjorn Borg would take his racquet back.

It looks to me like he would take his racquet back when the ball bounces on the court or a bit earlier .

http://i10.tinypic.com/47bokyt.gif

Borg played 50 years ago, balls werent coming anywhere near as fast, plus, that looks like clay.

[Mick]

Borg played 50 years ago, balls werent coming anywhere near as fast, plus, that looks like clay.
look at his racket, it's a midsize Head graphite. this gif file is not from 1956, the year he was born.

[JohnYandell]

Mick,


That image is copyrighted and needs to be taken down. I filmed it in Naples at a seniors event in maybe 1998 or so. Only seniors event he ever won.

Regards,
John Yandell

[limitup]

I think the bottom line is that very few players relying solely on the position of the ball to decide when to start their swing. There are so many variables including but not limited to the position and pace of the ball, how slow or fast the player likes to swing, etc. etc. etc.

I'm no expert but it really seems pointless to discuss this in terms of when the ball is bouncing. I think to sum it up everyone can agree that 1) it's best to prepare as early as possible and 2) it's generally best to start your "takeback" at an appropriate time that will allow you to complete your entire swing in one continuous motion while hitting the ball at the appropriate contact point.

I mean think about it. All else being equal, if you like to take really slow and long strokes and I have a very short and compact stroke, we are not going to "take the racquet back" at the same time ...

[Mahboob Khan]

I think the bottom line is that very few players relying solely on the position of the ball to decide when to start their swing. There are so many variables including but not limited to the position and pace of the ball, how slow or fast the player likes to swing, etc. etc. etc.

I'm no expert but it really seems pointless to discuss this in terms of when the ball is bouncing. I think to sum it up everyone can agree that 1) it's best to prepare as early as possible and 2) it's generally best to start your "takeback" at an appropriate time that will allow you to complete your entire swing in one continuous motion while hitting the ball at the appropriate contact point.

I mean think about it. All else being equal, if you like to take really slow and long strokes and I have a very short and compact stroke, we are not going to "take the racquet back" at the same time ...

Great insight.

[JohnYandell]

Agreed. And you see this all vary from ball to ball.

BUT if you want a baseline or a norm to work everything else around, on a ball in the center of the court or two-three steps out where they are not forced on time, you see the pro players have the shoulders fully turned, the left arm stretched across and the racket at the top of the backswing when the ball is bouncing on the court.

Everything else is faster or slower based on cirscumstance. For the beginning and even high level club player, I think this position can be modified to the bottom of the backswing or close to it. This can be accomplished with a more compact or straighter backswing in which the hand goes back on a level or only slightly inclined plane--the problem with many pro backswings is they are too large and complex for the average player.

[Mick]

Mick,


That image is copyrighted and needs to be taken down. I filmed it in Naples at a seniors event in maybe 1998 or so. Only seniors event he ever won.

Regards,
John Yandell
Sorry about that John. I edited my post to take it out but I could not edit the image that is linked to the reply to my post. Maybe a moderator can take it down for us.

[JohnYandell]

OK thanks I appreciate it.

[jimmycoop]

After wading through this post several times and dodging all the verbal racquet throwing, I think I found some really timely and helpful info. My forehand had gone south in my last couple of matches but after reading the various views, I hit with the ball machine incorporating the preparation and takeback tips(especially re thinking of it as a "unit") and I think my forehand is back; we'll see after my next match. So, thanks John, BB, Mahboob and others.

[Mahboob Khan]

You are welcome. Sorry, I can't say any more because I am exhausted from a lengthy post under "Mahboob".