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View Full Version : What performance enhancers do you take?


Skinny Dip
08-04-2004, 01:48 AM
I don't know how common this is, but I have all kinds of performance enhancers that I couldn't live without. For example:

Emergen-C - packets of vitamin C that you mix in with your drink. Very restorative;

Ginseng - Amazing the way you can run so much more and tire so much less;

Sam-e - Keeps my mood in balance (don't get nearly as angry or frustrated) plus it's great for the muscles and joints keeping the body looser and more flexible during play.

I usually take all three, EmergenC and Ginseng extract in my drink and 400 mgs of Sam-e in pill form. Anyone else using enhancers?

Chuck
08-04-2004, 08:56 AM
Pharmanex Overdrive 45 minutes before I play.

Phil
08-04-2004, 09:59 PM
None of that stuff works-you're wasting your money. If you THINK it works, that's fine, but do the reasearch and you'll find that most supplements are a scam. If you can't "live without" this garbage then you're obviously in bad shape to begin with or you have very poor nutrition habits.

speedofpain88
08-04-2004, 10:20 PM
None, Phil said it.

ffrpg
08-05-2004, 12:45 AM
I also agree, you don't really need to take any of that stuff. Just eat right.

Cypo
08-05-2004, 01:09 AM
Aint nobodies business but my own....


Maybe ginseng though only works in conjunction with progesterone....(I like it too)

newbie123
08-05-2004, 05:55 AM
I think Vitamin C tablets work pretty well

@wright
08-05-2004, 10:33 AM
I just can't live without my black tar heroine.

Kirko
08-05-2004, 09:42 PM
B-Complex before I go to sleep no stress has every opportunity to work @ its top end.

Kobble
08-06-2004, 12:08 AM
Dude, change you handle to King Placebo.

joe sch
08-06-2004, 08:32 AM
coffee in the morning and beer in the evening. Often midday teas(e) :wink:

Skinny Dip
08-07-2004, 08:06 PM
None of that stuff works-you're wasting your money. If you THINK it works, that's fine, but do the reasearch and you'll find that most supplements are a scam. If you can't "live without" this garbage then you're obviously in bad shape to begin with or you have very poor nutrition habits.

Garbage? Placebo? Scam? Pretty ignorant and harsh words for Vitamin C and Ginseng the latter being used for centuries by althletes and others around the world. As for vitamin C, OK genius, you're right no value whatsoever - I'd petition to get Linus Paulings Nobel prize revoked immediately.

Why don't you give your cranium a workout by coming up with a thoughtful response instead of just spewing knee jerk drivel.

Phil
08-07-2004, 10:34 PM
Garbage? Placebo? Scam? Pretty ignorant and harsh words for Vitamin C and Ginseng the latter being used for centuries by althletes and others around the world. As for vitamin C, OK genius, you're right no value whatsoever - I'd petition to get Linus Paulings Nobel prize revoked immediately.

Why don't you give your cranium a workout by coming up with a thoughtful response instead of just spewing knee jerk drivel.

As P.T. Barnum said, there's one of your type born every minute-i.e. suckers. The "knee jerk drivel" comes from 15 years of reading about, and experimenting (on myself) with "health" supplements. I know more about this than you, trust me. You obviously know NOTHING about nutrition or supplementation, and are looking for a "magic pill" as a substitute for hard work and sound nutritional planning. You are, I assume, a lazy person who doesn't want to put in the work. As I suggested, do the research and stop wasting your money. Otherwise, take YOUR drivel elsewhere.

Skinny Dip
08-08-2004, 09:42 AM
These aren't health supplements, they're performance supplements as you might gather from the thread title. There have been a number of studies on the performance enhancing attributes of all the supplements I've mentioned, that you obviously haven't come across in your 15 years of "scholarship" on the subject.

If you have anything to back up your claims that these studies, and most of the medical community are wrong, lets hear it. I guess its a sign of the time that aggressive uninformed blather is preferred to thoughtful discussion these days.

gmlasam
08-08-2004, 11:36 AM
These aren't health supplements, they're performance supplements as you might gather from the thread title. There have been a number of studies on the performance enhancing attributes of all the supplements I've mentioned, that you obviously haven't come across in your 15 years of "scholarship" on the subject.

If you have anything to back up your claims that these studies, and most of the medical community are wrong, lets hear it. I guess its a sign of the time that aggressive uninformed blather is preferred to thoughtful discussion these days.Hhahahahahahha!!! Good points Skinny Dip!! :lol:

Phil
08-08-2004, 05:48 PM
Nothing that you mentioned will "enhance performace". Just your choice of gushing blurb-like language to describe the effects of these things is pretty ridiculous sounding. There's plenty of data to back ME up, but here, on this board, I'm not going to do your research for you. Like I said, you're a lazy person. However, if you take a read through this site: http://www.quackwatch.org/, you'll find some interesting items that are sure to deflate your magic pill hopes. The so-called "medical professionals" who endorse your products are paid spokesmen. Much of these supplements or whatever you want to call them, are produced by a couple factories in Utah, which sell people dreams, as one of their spokesman said in a recent article in the New Yorker.

And I'm familiar with ginsing and sam-e. You haven't provided anything but defensive comments to "support" your claims. But it's your money and it's a free country-you can stay a sucker-that's not my problem. The fact that you're so defensive about it indicates to me that you're not all that on board with this junk, and you were looking for a little "group support" for your decision to put this dirt into your body. You didn't receive that support, obviously, because, there aren't so many suckers on this board (Actually, there are, but you'll have to visit the Racquets Board to find them). If you only KNEW how much the supplement/vitamin industry is taking consumers for, you might be sick.

Phil
08-08-2004, 07:27 PM
I'll only add that there is/was ONE "performance enhancer", if that's your preferred term, that actually WORKED. That was ephedrine-but many/most states have banned it due to a few highly publicized deaths (probably due to overuse/abuse). My preferred brand was TwinLab Ripped Fuel. It worked, but I only took it before I played on mornings following evening matches (i.e. every Saturday from September to May). If you still WANT to get similar effects (basically being able to play all day long without fatigue), you can buy Ma Huang, the natural ingredient used in ephidrine, at a Chinese drug/herb store (in NYC or California-if you live in Muncie, IN, you're probably out of luck). Be careful if you do-take too much of this stuff and you risk cardiac arrest. The pills were small, controlled doses, sold in its natural state, Ma Huang can be dangerous.

Kobble
08-08-2004, 09:07 PM
Skinny Dip, I had a similar view on the supplement industry as you do now. I read all the University supported highlights on the next greatest thing coming down the pipe. The only thing I have ever taken that is worth the money is the ephedrine based supplements, everything else was pretty useless. When I was in high school a friend of mine worked at nutrition world, he stole and used more products than you could imagine. He came to the conclusion that most all of it does nothing, he said it wasn't even worth stealing anymore. Most of the people who market this crap are just frustrated muscleheads who need to make up for their unfortunate career path, and hustling chemistry scam artists like Bob Barefoot. Bill Phillips was/is another one who had big hype. He was a "former" steroid user who got into the magazine business, and used the the performance enhancers as supplimental income. And then we have Joe Weider, the man who has taken every simple exercise movement and made a claim to the origin of them. Have you ever priced chromium piccolinate from his or any hustler's brand and have noticed that it is much more expensive than the store brand? You are probably thinking that they must sell the real stuff, not the generic impure crap. Well, all of chromium piccolinate comes from a company called Nutrition 21. Look on the label, it will likey still have the label if Nutrition 21 is still the source. The other brands jack up the price for no reason, and the stuff doesn't work anyway. You don't think a similar thing is done with other vitamins and minerals. What do you think? That people like me and Phil were just unfortunately around when the industry was full of scam artists, but now they are regulated and have integrity, please. The FDA does nothing to stop most of their scams, because they are only dangerous to your wallet, and they don't have time to police everything. Do your homework, pick up a college biology book, and this lesson in your life will be a cheaper one.

Skinny Dip
08-09-2004, 01:37 AM
Phil, so even though all supplements are scams there IS the exception of one that happened to work for you. Exactly the kind of scholarship I imagined.

Saying there's no quality control or oversight in the supplements industry is very different than saying that vitamin C (electrolytes or whatever) can't be restorative to overought muscles etc, or that Ginseng doesn't help with endurance (being used by Asian Athletes for centuries not to mention being proven to generate steroids and testasterone) are two completely different arguments.

Argh I'm wasting my breath. You're right, all medical progress was a fake until the AMA came into existance and Iraq was behind 911. You go girls.

Phil
08-09-2004, 02:10 AM
People like you, Skinny Dip, are a marketing manager's DREAM. Gullible to the max, sucked in brainwashed by hype, and actually EAGER to part with your cash based on FAITH alone. Stay a sucker. I was just trying to save you a lot of money and time (as was Kobble in his comments). Ephedrine didn't work for me ONLY, but the fact is, nothing else HAS. If you gave me the crap you're taking for free, I'd chuck it.

I have yet to see any "scholarship" from you other than parroting what is printed on the back of the packages of the supplements you buy-and we all know how reliable and truthful that is.

As far as Asian athletes using ginsing for centuries, well, Haitian witch doctors have been casting spells for centuries too-that isn't a valid comparison-I really wouldn't decide how I spend my money based on another culture's backwards superstitions. Your last two comments, although an attempt at sarcasm, betray an ignorance and close mindedness that, well, I already knew. Bye bye, sucker. And don't say Phil didn't tell you so, when you finally realize how much money you've stuffed down the drain.

Skinny Dip
08-09-2004, 09:40 PM
Ah, I've seen the light Phil. Unless its pumped out by the US pharmaceutical industry then its a total sham and waste of money. Am I getting warm?

Never mind that US citizens pay more for our own pharm products than any other industrialized society - its still the deal of the century isn't it Phil. Those stupid people that save money with various proven herbs and other otc supplements without suffering the same side effects of the pharmaceutical versions should be strung up.

Even as unregulated and fraught with quality control issues as the supplements market is, their use continues to skyrocket as the public is turning away from the gouging and often inferior and more caustic products churned out by the Pharm industry.

Even though certain pharmaceutical products definately have their place, YES I do realize how much cash I've stuffed down the drain when safer less costly alternatives to prescription drugs have always existed.

I really didn't intend to turn this into a pro/anti pharmaceutical rant, just a simple communication of products that I feel improve my performance while playing tennis. But your typical pharmaceutical industry assault forced me into taking a position.

I'm done with the subject - but wish you'd stick to the subject of tennis and not use this as a channel for industry propaganda.

By the way, anyone that wants to know which of us is more sincere or knowledgable can just look at your sadly ignorant and offensive statement that equates centuries of Oriental medicine with Haitian witch doctors.

Stick to peddling pharmaceuticals and playing sports - your larger grasp of the world around you is embarrasingly insufficient.

Kobble
08-09-2004, 11:32 PM
I don't know if this is comedy or tragedy.

Phil
08-10-2004, 12:12 AM
I'd say tragicomic, as this is the mentality fueling the unregulated $17.4 billion US health supplement industry. People like this are happily, and with blissful ignorance, making other people, who pump out the crap and hype, filthy rich.

Kevin T
08-10-2004, 08:46 AM
Sorry, Skinny, but Phil is correct. My PhD is in clinical nutrition with tons of grad and post-grad coursework in exercise physiology. People may have used ginseng for centuries but 100's of studies have shown no benefit whatsoever. Ephedrine works. The ephedrine/caffeine stack works MOMENTARILY for increasing metabolism, which equals more kcal burned, which equals some fat loss. Endurox does not work, according to many studies. Caffeine alone does work in megadoses (equivalent to 2-4 cups of coffee pre-workout) by SLIGHTLY increasing endurance but you also get the complementary shakes, nervousness, trotts, etc. Caffeine in megadoses is actually banned by the IOC, along with 10 million other substances. Just go on MEDLINE and look these things up. I guarantee you'll find tons of studies. Go the American College of Sports Medicine's website and read their position statements. Also remember that just because research is published, doesn't mean it's good research. There are 1000's of research journals out there but only a handful are well-respected. They tend to have an agenda, like most everyone these days and a lot of research into a product that comes up positive (see Endurox) is actually funded by that company. Just eat right, work out daily and drink a cup of coffee before the big match. Otherwise, take @wrights's advice.

Cypo
08-10-2004, 01:26 PM
I was hoping you would chime in on this Kevin T. I looked in the internet for research on ginseng, but I found a lot of conflicting reports, including discussions of whether the
Genus ? species ? was important, and whether the effects are for endurance sports or short duration intense sports. Is the case really closed on ginseng among the reputable journals ?

Cypo
08-10-2004, 01:29 PM
Who said "Comedy in tragedy standing on its head with its pants torn" ?

Kevin T
08-11-2004, 08:22 AM
Good eye, Cypo. The door will never be closed on these "supplements". Ginseng is typically related to endurance-type exercise performance enhancement. Genus/species/country of origin/etc. are popular variants in plant/herb research these days, especially with soybeans and the most popular herbals like St. John's Wort, echinacea, etc. Something may come of it or may not. Because of the total lack of regulation, you never know what you are getting, in terms of purity/content/etc. but the biggest worry is the potential presence of heavy metals like mercury and lead. Not good. The best herbal products (and the ones most US researchers use) come from Europe, specifically Germany. A recent study headed by a PharmD here in SC and featured as a supplement in the JAMA (and one I was involved in :D ) showed that St. John's Wort shares a common metabolic pathway with 75% of prescription drugs. What does that mean? It means that this herb will interfere with the metabolism and absorption (either increasing or decreasing the effect ) of most prescribed medication. That can be very dangerous, especially considering the fact that St. John's is one of the 5 most popular OTC herbals in the world. Other herbals that showed a modest but statistically insignificant effect on prescription drug metabolism included GINSENG and surprisingly cranberry extract. This was an NIH-funded study, so no drug or supplement companies were involved. More studies of this sort are forthcoming. As others mentioned, the placebo effect can be a powerful thing. It's even seen in studies using common drugs that we know work (ie. Lipitor). In my opinion, supplements are just the icing on the cake. Even if they work , they may give you an extra 1/100th of a second on a sprint or 10# extra on the bench or 45 seconds longer on the bike but that usually only matters in elite-level competition. Nothing will ever replace hard work, proper nutrition and REST (very often overlooked). For a supplement that really works, see steroids. But that is another story.

Skinny Dip
08-12-2004, 07:27 PM
Wow looks like I hit the hornets nest of pharm reps around here. You can argue about any study you want, whether the European/Asian or American funded studies. And which species, quality of Ginseng used will clearly impact the study.

Also effect on metabolism isn't necessarily predictive of increase in endurance. It depends what they're studying. But anyone that would turn their back on the century long use of Ginseng for athletic endurance, with so many positive studies done is just being foolish.

Or more likely, is in the Pharm industry and is just against the public buying anything but American Pharmaceutical products. And that can be the only possible motivation for the angry reactions in the forum. Otherwise someone that uses supplements before a tennis match just isn't something to get terribly excited about.

Come clean guys!

Kobble
08-12-2004, 10:30 PM
I feel there may be something we can all learn from you Skinny. The impenetrable wall of denial you have put up blocks us from using logic to destroy your placebo effect. All hail the amazing King of all Placebo, he eats lead and craps gold.

Phil
08-12-2004, 10:47 PM
For some people it's much too difficult for them to admit they're wrong, even in the face of overwhelming evidence contrary to their positions. The SMART ones lick their wounds and actually LEARN from it. I think her denial stems from not only not being able to admit that she is incorrect in everything she's said, but that she's wasted a lot of money, which, of course, she'll never get back. The "health" shysters have the last laugh-all the way to the bank. "Pharm Reps"...get real.

KingBugsy
08-13-2004, 06:27 AM
Phil and Kobble... Do you all think the sports drink enhancers (like Red Bull, Pirahana, Stinger) are also not worth it? (I have a post up about it, but this is the hot post now!)

Phil
08-13-2004, 07:56 AM
Phil and Kobble... Do you all think the sports drink enhancers (like Red Bull, Pirahana, Stinger) are also not worth it? (I have a post up about it, but this is the hot post now!)

KingBugsy - I don't know enough about them. Try them, as long as you realize that chemicals can't replace conditioning and nutrition; you can only fool your body for so long. Red Bull has sodium, caffeine, and suger, so it should give you a buzz, but in my unscientific opinion, I don't think it's a "sports drink" in the traditional sense i.e. it won't replace lost electolytes, potassium, etc. If you play hard tennis, or work out seriously enough that you need more than just cold water, try Gatorade or TwinLab's Ultra Fuel. Those always worked for me, and they won't give your heart such a jolt.

Kobble
08-13-2004, 03:57 PM
I haven't used them to really have a direct opinion on them. Like Phil said, most of them are caffeine sources. You could look up research on the effect of caffeine on sports performance. Find the doses used for the study, and then compare it to the amount in Red Bull and all that stuff. If the amount is close or exceeds what was used for a successful study, then you could guess that it might be worth a try. However, these drinks are expensive, and are likely not an economical way to get a caffeine fix. If you like the taste, then get one every now and then, but investing your money in these things as an aid is very likely a poor investment. Coffee or caffeine pills would be a more economical choice. Remember, for long term endurance hydration is the most important. If you base your nutrition values on solid science, you will recieve the most bang for your buck.

K!ck5w3rvE
08-13-2004, 05:35 PM
I'm on the roids...