Greater Hardcourt player - Federer or Djokovic?

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
I don't even know if had that title because he was still one hardcourt Slam behind Federer going into this year. He has time to catch up and I guess one good thing is that he hasn't had any major injury (until now) and no real issues with his legs, knees, etc., so his movement should not severely decline even though he's a bit older. But if Federer wins the USO, he puts him so far out of reach that I don't know if he will reach him. I just don't know how he will play from the age 30-35.
I think two more slam finals and twice as many Masters 1000s makes up for the extra slam title but that's just my opinion. And yes, it will be interesting to see how he plays in his later years but the fact remains he's had an incredible career and no one can take his achievements away from him whatever happens from this moment on.
 

Devin

Semi-Pro
Nadal has already passed Sampras in Slams so that's pretty much put to bed at this point. Djokovic has not passed Sampras based on Masters titles because he also lags him in weeks at #1. His Masters titles are not enough to make up for that gap. However, Masters/Super 9/Grand Prix titles are really important when comparing legacies. Anybody saying otherwise do not understand the legend of Rome, Monte Carlo, Cincinnati or Canada where Rome is the youngest tournament between them that started in the 1930's.

Really...? I think Djokovic is ahead of Sampras now because he has the NCYGS and had two great seasons where he won 3 slams (2011/2015). Sampras never accomplished any of those things (not to mention Djokovic is a far better clay courter and he has a slight edge on hard courts overall, but especially in this modern era).
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
I think two more slam finals and twice as many Masters 1000s makes up for the extra slam title but that's just my opinion. And yes, it will be interesting to see how he plays in his later years but the fact remains he's had an incredible career and no one can take his achievements away from him whatever happens from this moment on.

Well since you put it that way it does kind of prove your point. I didn't realize had twice as many Masters than Federer at that age. Yea he's already had an incredible career any way you cut it. Nobody can take from him. I still think he can do so much more and I believe he will.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Really...? I think Djokovic is ahead of Sampras now because he has the NCYGS and had two great seasons where he won 3 slams (2011/2015). Sampras never accomplished any of those things (not to mention Djokovic is a far better clay courter and he has a slight edge on hard courts overall, but especially in this modern era).

Not quite yet for me. I think Sampras has more YE #1, 2 more Slams and more weeks at #1. It's just too much of a gap although I think Djokovic's career has already arguably been more impressive. After he comes back, if he can stay healthy for about 3 years and play at a high level, he will have more than passed Sampras but just not yet.
 

duaneeo

Legend
Pre-peak (2011) Djokovic blows pre-peak (2004) Federer away on hardcourt. Pre-2011 Nole has a slam, a WTFs, and 4 (different) Masters. Pre-2004 Federer has a WTFs.

Peak/prime 2004 - 2010 Federer (9 slams, 4 WTFs, 12 Masters) has the better HC record than peak/prime 2011 - 2017 Djokovic (7 slams, 4 WTFs, 18 Masters). It'll come down to how post-prime Djokovic does compared to Roger. Thus far, post-prime Fed has a slam, a WTFs, and 8 (4 different) Masters.
 
D

Deleted member 743561

Guest
Pre-peak (2011) Djokovic blows pre-peak (2004) Federer away on hardcourt. Pre-2011 Nole has a slam, a WTFs, and 4 (different) Masters. Pre-2004 Federer has a WTFs.

Peak/prime 2004 - 2010 Federer (9 slams, 4 WTFs, 12 Masters) has the better HC record than peak/prime 2011 - 2017 Djokovic (7 slams, 4 WTFs, 18 Masters). It'll come down to how post-prime Djokovic does compared to Roger. Thus far, post-prime Fed has a slam, a WTFs, and 8 (4 different) Masters.

Two majors just this year, no? To say nothing of all the finals over the past few years. Think you're underselling.

EDIT: Hardcore. Blurgle, mea culpa. I get this feeling that a sea change is about to come over the tour now.
 
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KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic really messed up too many chances. For all the "weak era" talk let look at some of Nole's prime/peak HC losses:

Roddick 09. So called weak era mug loool
Murray 12. Pigeon
Nishikori 14. Lol
Wawrinka 16 after 1 set lead
Istomtin 17 lol

He should have 7 AO to make his domination there more comparable to Fed on grass and Nadal clay (still can get there though)
He should have 4-5 USO. 3 RG (should've won 14-16) should have a CYGS.

It's to his credit though that he's managed to be so utterly consistent, especially first 3/4 of 2011 and 2015- first half of 2016. He should be ahead of Nadal at least who has only showed up off clay in 3 years. Wimbledon 08 - AO 09 stretch, 2010, 2013.
 
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tennis2017

Rookie
Universally regarded as two of the greatest hard court players in the open era, who is the greatest out of the two. Here are the stats to back up this debate.

Federer -

1) 60 titles overall
2) 9 majors on hard
3) 18 masters
4) 86.81 win percentage
5) 5 WTF on hard

Djokovic -

1) 47 titles overall
2) 8 majors on hard
3) 19 masters
4) 88.37 win percentage
5) 5 WTF on hard
FEDERER
 

tennis2017

Rookie
Djokovic for sure. People say Federer is the GOAT but at the end of the day he won't even go down as the GOAT on any surface.

Grass GOAT- Sampras
Clay GOAT- Nadal
Hard court GOAT -Djokovic
Turn it up
Federer best on grass
Federer best on hardcourt
Nadal best on clay
 

NGM

Hall of Fame
Djokovic is a dominant player on hard court but he tends to fail big time when it matters the most. He can't say he only lost to other ATGs, in fact he could lose to anyone even in his peak. Nishikori? Murray?

Story of his life.
 

dgold44

G.O.A.T.
Universally regarded as two of the greatest hard court players in the open era, who is the greatest out of the two. Here are the stats to back up this debate.

Federer -

1) 60 titles overall
2) 9 majors on hard
3) 18 masters
4) 86.81 win percentage
5) 5 WTF on hard

Djokovic -

1) 47 titles overall
2) 8 majors on hard
3) 19 masters
4) 88.37 win percentage
5) 5 WTF on hard

Draw !!!!
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Djokovic for sure. People say Federer is the GOAT but at the end of the day he won't even go down as the GOAT on any surface.

Grass GOAT- Sampras
Clay GOAT- Nadal
Hard court GOAT -Djokovic

This is puzzling even before Roger's slam titles this year. Both Roger & Pete with same number of grass titles at W but Roger had made it to 10 Finals there to only 7 for Pete. (Now it's 11 finals with that 8th title).

Novak fares a bit better on the slower HCs like the AO. But Fed fares better on the faster venues like the USO and Cincy. Before 2017, Roger had 9 HC slam titles to 8 HC slam titles for Novak. Now, Roger is at 10 titles (5 AO and 5 USO) to 8 slam titles (6 AO and 2 USO) for Novak. Other factors gets Novak closes the gap a bit but certainly not enough to declare Novak as HC GOAT over Roger.
 

DismalFuture

Professional
Turn it up
Federer best on grass
Federer best on hardcourt
Federer best on clay
Fixed. Only the real clay goat has won titles in the different variations of the surface( Madrid 2012 ). And all the times Rogie lost to Nadal on clay was due to choking or injury. I thought this was common knowledge.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
Djokovic is a dominant player on hard court but he tends to fail big time when it matters the most. He can't say he only lost to other ATGs, in fact he could lose to anyone even in his peak. Nishikori? Murray?

Story of his life.
Now now, let's not go overboard. The Nishikori defeat was admittedly inexusable but apart from that I don't think any of his other losses in recent years could really be considered bad, unless you count his defeat to Istomin although as we've seen, 2017 won't even go down as one of Djokovic's prime years, let alone peak.
 

Druss

Hall of Fame
I give the edge to Federer.....however both would be ranked at the top greatest HC players in Open Era. Other contenders would be Sampras, Connors, Lendl and Agassi.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
There would've been a decent case for Djokovic if that was the case. I would still back Federer, but I'm not denying that it would be closer than a lot of people think. Either way, I feel as if Djokovic missed his opportunity to surpass Federer in that department, and that's when having more RUs stops mattering as much. After all, Lendl once said 3 USOs meant much more than 8 USO finals. :D
He hasn't passed his opportunity just yet. 2 HC slams ain't that much of he gets back to say 2013 level in the current environment
 
Federer is at the moment but Djokovic has age on his side. If he returns to top form he is very comfortable at AO, just needs to convert any more US Open finals into wins.
 
Yeah yeah. Federer will stay on top for years so we don't know who has more time on his side.

No one know what will happen - I think Djokovic is likely to return to top form (even for a brief stint) - he is too good a player not too. Whether he becomes the hard court GOAT though remains to be seen. It will be interesting viewing
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
Fed has 4 more finals at the WTF Chanwan but at the slams they're equal on 13 and Novak has 2 more finals at the HC Masters events. :)
Cheers, will add this
LOL, FTW would not even count it as a major title around here.
Djokovic has never been good at taking advantage of openings and when he has a bit of luck on his side.
See FO 2014, US Open 2014, US Open 2016.
Nadal on the other hand strikes when he sees openings off clay. That is why Nadal is the big match player that he is.
Djokovic has laid a few too many bad eggs and he prob will never get past Pete in the major count.
But one thing not one of his major titles is a "soft" title and at least he has 2 US Open titles.
Rafa is def. good at taking care of his chances outside of clay, but even he is 2-3 at Wimbledon and 3-4 in HC slam finals (1-3 and 2-1).

To be clear, that's an excellent stat given all of those were against Fedovic except for AO 14. But Rafa fans will correctly say he had his chances in W 07, AO 12 and AO 15 - the guy truly is in excellent form when he gets to the final of any non-clay slam and knows how to take care of business.
I think two more slam finals and twice as many Masters 1000s makes up for the extra slam title but that's just my opinion. And yes, it will be interesting to see how he plays in his later years but the fact remains he's had an incredible career and no one can take his achievements away from him whatever happens from this moment on.
Not sure what exactly you're referring to here?
 
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Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
Excuse me, but haven't we all pretty much forgotten to count 7 REAL slams for Federer?
That pretty much puts him out of reach for Novak. No way to make up the gap between 17 and 8 HC slams. :D:D:eek:
 
I was watching a junior player (11yo) playing a match on HC the other day. Incredibly, this was the first time they had played a match on HC. They have done all of their development and played all of their competitive tennis on Red Clay till the other day.

He won the match easily. Coming off the court he was amazed at how easy it was to play tennis on a HC compared to playing on Red Clay.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Federer is at the moment but Djokovic has age on his side. If he returns to top form he is very comfortable at AO, just needs to convert any more US Open finals into wins.
Even if Djokovic wins 2 more AO titles, I still think Fed will be the better HC player, because of his better distribution of HC slams (5 AO's and 5 USO's). Novak's record in USO finals won't hurt his status as one of the best HC players ever, but when compared directly to Federer, who has a dominant record in both HC slam finals, I think it has to be taken into account.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Federer is at the moment but Djokovic has age on his side. If he returns to top form he is very comfortable at AO, just needs to convert any more US Open finals into wins.

Not so sure that Djoko really has age on his side. Novaks' style of play isn't easy on his body. Not as brutal on the joints as Rafa's style but not as kind or smooth as Roger's style either. Novak might make a short comeback next year, but it seems doubtful that he will have Roger's longevity. But time will tell.
 

The_18th_Slam

Hall of Fame
Djokovic for sure. People say Federer is the GOAT but at the end of the day he won't even go down as the GOAT on any surface.

Grass GOAT- Sampras
Clay GOAT- Nadal
Hard court GOAT -Djokovic
LOL

Now, let's do this again.

Grass GOAT: Federer (by virtue of owning Wimbledon like no other)

Hard GOAT: Federer (most Hardcourt Slams)

Clay GOAT: Nadal (no explanation necessary)
 

Shank Volley

Hall of Fame
Now now, let's not go overboard. The Nishikori defeat was admittedly inexusable but apart from that I don't think any of his other losses in recent years could really be considered bad, unless you count his defeat to Istomin although as we've seen, 2017 won't even go down as one of Djokovic's prime years, let alone peak.

People get better with age though. Maybe competition got better.
 

Shank Volley

Hall of Fame
Good point - I had a feeling there was something different about Istomin's game at the AO. He should definitely be in the running for most improved player of the year . :)

I would hope that Djokovic is able to improve his game to be better than the likes of a stronger Istomin and Thiem, it would be a shame to see such a champion prove to be lesser in the end than players with so few achievements.
 
Not so sure that Djoko really has age on his side. Novaks' style of play isn't easy on his body. Not as brutal on the joints as Rafa's style but not as kind or smooth as Roger's style either. Novak might make a short comeback next year, but it seems doubtful that he will have Roger's longevity. But time will tell.
You might be right mate. One thing I've learned (especially this year) is that 1) tennis can be very surprising and 2) never right-off a big 3 member, they just keep finding a way to come back when they are suposedly done. They all have that special quality
 

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
Big titles Djokovic 50 Federer 39
The gap 11 will rank #8 in OE
Djokovic was always going to be the superior hard court player. People knew it back in 2015. He had the AO record and he was just 2 behind fed in USopen. Should have actually broken Fed's 5 USO record but it's too late now.

Djokovic is ahead in
AO
ATP finals
Miami
Rogers cup
Shanghai
Paris

Federer is ahead in
USO
Cincinnati

That's the difference. And oh they are tied on IW which I hope Nole snatches away from Federer.

Nole is unstoppable force on hard courts.
 

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
It's a Novak Love Fest thread. Yes, he's the best. But Federer was far better entertainment, which is what matters to me, a spectator.
In 2016 itself he was the best on hc. But the fedfans kept saying he has something lacking. But now there is absolutely nothing lacking.
 

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
Federer still has more total match wins on hard courts but Djokovic will eventually surpass that.
I would not be so sure. Djokovic has to win 90 more matches to tie Fed. He would need at least 3 more seasons at the rate he's going, and by then he's going to be 39
 
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