The Real Reason Serve and Volley Tennis has Disappeared

Sherlock

Rookie
Much has been made by classical tennis afficiandos about how the lack of grass court tournaments, and the change in the type of grass used (firmer, higher bouncing) leading to the death of serve and volley tennis. I was also on this bandwagon for a long time, and while I of course don't wish for a return to all serve and volleyers, I would like to see a longer grass court season.

In fact, this is not the case! With the recent addition to the ATP World Tour site of the "Reliability Zone" you can now check career records of players by surface easily. The first thing I noticed was that the number of matches played on grass by top players, while slightly less, is not significantly less. Notice, for example, that Federer has played 110 grass court matches, while the leader is Jimmy Connors with 203 in his lengthy career. An earlier player with a normal career length, like John Newcombe played 149 grass court matches.

However, if you instead check out the number of carpet matches played, the difference is enormous. John McEnroe played 410 matches on carpet, Boris Becker played 322, Arthur Ashe played 279, and even as recently as 10-15 years ago Pete Sampras played 188. By comparison, the only current players in the top 30 for win percentage on this surface are Roger Federer, Ivan Ljubicic, and Nikolay Davydenko. Federer has played 69, Ljubicic 79, and Daydenko 52. Measly!

When you combine this with the recent success of serve and volleyer Michael Llodra in the Paris Masters, one of the very few remaining carpet tournaments, as well as other anecdotal successes by serve and volleyers on this surface, it becomes more obvious that the death of serve and volleyers on the pro tour more closely follows the decrease in the number of carpet tournaments and not the number of grass court tournaments.

Yes, I agree that the changes in strings have also contributed to this, because it has not added a whole lot to serve and volley proficiency, but has dramatically improved returns and groundstrokes. However, there is still some success by serve and volley players on carpet, much more success than has been seen on grass. To me, this implies that were there as many carpet tournaments now as there were 20 years ago, serve and volleyers would have more success and that gamestyle could be supported on the pro tour.

From now on, when I wish for more equality in the representation of tennis styles in tennis I will no longer wish for more grass court tournaments, but instead more carpet tournaments.

What are your thoughts?
 

SuperFly

Semi-Pro
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Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
Much has been made by classical tennis afficiandos about how the lack of grass court tournaments, and the change in the type of grass used (firmer, higher bouncing) leading to the death of serve and volley tennis. I was also on this bandwagon for a long time, and while I of course don't wish for a return to all serve and volleyers, I would like to see a longer grass court season.

In fact, this is not the case! With the recent addition to the ATP World Tour site of the "Reliability Zone" you can now check career records of players by surface easily. The first thing I noticed was that the number of matches played on grass by top players, while slightly less, is not significantly less. Notice, for example, that Federer has played 110 grass court matches, while the leader is Jimmy Connors with 203 in his lengthy career. An earlier player with a normal career length, like John Newcombe played 149 grass court matches.

However, if you instead check out the number of carpet matches played, the difference is enormous. John McEnroe played 410 matches on carpet, Boris Becker played 322, Arthur Ashe played 279, and even as recently as 10-15 years ago Pete Sampras played 188. By comparison, the only current players in the top 30 for win percentage on this surface are Roger Federer, Ivan Ljubicic, and Nikolay Davydenko. Federer has played 69, Ljubicic 79, and Daydenko 52. Measly!

When you combine this with the recent success of serve and volleyer Michael Llodra in the Paris Masters, one of the very few remaining carpet tournaments, as well as other anecdotal successes by serve and volleyers on this surface, it becomes more obvious that the death of serve and volleyers on the pro tour more closely follows the decrease in the number of carpet tournaments and not the number of grass court tournaments.

Yes, I agree that the changes in strings have also contributed to this, because it has not added a whole lot to serve and volley proficiency, but has dramatically improved returns and groundstrokes. However, there is still some success by serve and volley players on carpet, much more success than has been seen on grass. To me, this implies that were there as many carpet tournaments now as there were 20 years ago, serve and volleyers would have more success and that gamestyle could be supported on the pro tour.

From now on, when I wish for more equality in the representation of tennis styles in tennis I will no longer wish for more grass court tournaments, but instead more carpet tournaments.

What are your thoughts?

a few thoughts

1} ATP formed in 1972, US Open got clay court in 1975 (only 3 years of grass court for the players)

2} Connors had not joined ATP until at least 1975 (I don't know if he ever did, Wiki says he refused to join and sued in 1974)

3} What about wood? Any news on that? has to be a big change

4} Where are pre-ATP players, pre-ATP Laver and Rosewall, as well as those who never played under ATP Budge, Tilden, Lacoste, etc.? Where are the people from before the ATP existed? You can't really provide this as factual without knowing how many grass matches they played. These stats are all going to be from 1972 onwards, so leaving out the greater part of a pro's career is not valid statistically.

5} S&Ving as a popularity ended in the 2000s, in the 80s-90s, it was very popular. Purists and classicists are saying they want faster courts, and everything is being slowed down, which is the problem
 

caulcano

Hall of Fame
S&V doesn't cut the mustard anymore. You will always get streaky players now and again (e.g. Henman reaching SF of the FO).

Notice, for example, that Federer has played 110 grass court matches, while the leader is Jimmy Connors with 203 in his lengthy career. An earlier player with a normal career length, like John Newcombe played 149 grass court matches.

Federers high number of matches is basically because he's won Wimbledon & Halle many times. If Connors was as good as Federer on grass he'd haveconsiderably more.
 
1

15_ounce

Guest
I don't see Serve and Volley tennis has disappeared. I still see them occasionally at pro matches.. sometimes pro players even S & V on their second serves. It will still be utilized in tennis, because it is one of the many tactics to gain some quick points or to surprise the opponents. There are also older players who will utilize this more because they want to finish the point quickly instead of be involved in a long exhausting rally. There are also players who consider their serve as their lethal weapon and therefore compliment it with volleys (Karlovic, Isner). Tennis will continue to produce players with various and different game styles... because we're all born differently with different DNA and genes and brain and physical forms. There will still be a S & V DNA born to this world :)
 

Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
I don't see Serve and Volley tennis has disappeared. I still see them occasionally at pro matches.. sometimes pro players even S & V on their second serves. It will still be utilized in tennis, because it is one of the many tactics to gain some quick points or to surprise the opponents. There are also older players who will utilize this more because they want to finish the point quickly instead of be involved in a long exhausting rally. There are also players who consider their serve as their lethal weapon and therefore compliment it with volleys (Karlovic, Isner). Tennis will continue to produce players with various and different game styles... because we're all born differently with different DNA and genes and brain and physical forms. There will still be a S & V DNA born to this world :)

there better. Any more baselining and ATP will become the WTATP with brainless ball bashing
 

jester911

Rookie
It has been discussed ad nauseum. With the newest advances in string technology the combination of pace and spin now created even the best S&V players can't do it every point and be successful against the top players.

Everyone wants to compare players of old with the new but unless they all played with the exact same racket and string technology this really is a moot point.
 

fedfan08

Professional
Maybe if they quit adding so much damn sand in the paint we wouldn't have these boring baseline counterpunching fests. How can a court be quick when it's so gritty with all the sand they put in the paint.
 

DNShade

Hall of Fame
When you combine this with the recent success of serve and volleyer Michael Llodra in the Paris Masters, one of the very few remaining carpet tournaments,

Just FYI - the Paris Masters isn't on carpet anymore - and hasn't been so since 2006. It's a semi-fast hard court surface. There are no more "carpet" events anymore - which is a shame IMO.
 

Sherlock

Rookie
SuperFly: Please reference for me a thread which provides an argument that the lack of carpet tournaments and NOT the lack of grass tournaments is the cause.

Manus: Your 5th point is actually in line with my argument. I am implicitly making the claim that S&V was popular in the 80s. However, the number of grass court matches played by players in that era was not much more than the number played now. It is the number of carpet matches that has declined considerably.

Caulcano: Those were merely examples. McEnroe only played 139. Nadal at the age of 24 has already played 48. Andy Roddick has played 90. All these players make it to finals roughly equally (none are expected to lose before the quarterfinals for most of their careers). The numbers aren't exactly the same, but they aren't RIDICULOUSLY different either. This constrasts with the tremendous difference in the number of carpet matches.

15_ounce: You're correct, there are S&Vers, I was exaggerating a little bit for my title. However, please distinguish between occasional S&Vers and people who earn their living as S&Vers (Llodra, Dent, Karlovic, and not too much more in the top 100).

Jester: I agree this has been discussed a lot. I am trying to bring a different view to the discussion that I feel like has been largely ignored.

DNShade: I guess you are correct. Looking at the stats on carpet for this year, it looks like the only matches officially played on carpet were Davis Cup ties. That is even more disappointing.

T1000: No, you're not the first. Please give me the link of a thread which makes the same case I do. My apologies if there was one, I haven't seen it.
 

timnz

Legend
Yep its carpet

There used to be 2 whole carpet seasons a year. There was the early year - post Australian Open - Indoor carpet season eg some top tournaments used to be Milan and Philly. Then there was the late season indoor carpet season leading up to the season end finals eg Sydney Indoor, Tokyo, Vienna, Paris etc.

They have completely disppeared.

This is the myth - Tennis is so much faster than it used to be.

This is the reality - Tennis is so much slower than it used to be.

Becker and Edberg used to get a lot of points from these tournaments. They would be much further down in the rankings if they had to play on the current diet of surfaces (not because of their skills levels - but because of the surfaces).
 

Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
Manus: Your 5th point is actually in line with my argument. I am implicitly making the claim that S&V was popular in the 80s. However, the number of grass court matches played by players in that era was not much more than the number played now. It is the number of carpet matches that has declined considerably.

did you read my other points?

there is also a dearth of wood matches, and I don't believe those statistics are valid btw

S&V existed because of the fast courts AND the new technology, which helped servers. Now it helps the baseliners far more than S&Vers. How many people were 100% S&V in the pre-80s compared to the 80s? They were all court because of the fairness of a woodie
 

li0scc0

Hall of Fame
In fact, this is not the case! With the recent addition to the ATP World Tour site of the "Reliability Zone" you can now check career records of players by surface easily. The first thing I noticed was that the number of matches played on grass by top players, while slightly less, is not significantly less. Notice, for example, that Federer has played 110 grass court matches, while the leader is Jimmy Connors with 203 in his lengthy career. An earlier player with a normal career length, like John Newcombe played 149 grass court matches.


Overall I liked your post! Great points about carpet. I will say, regarding the above, that (you mention this in passing) the grass is totally different today vs. in the 80's. Grass today is slow and low bouncing (official court ratings demonstrate how slow grass is today), while the grass of the 80's was fast and low bouncing.
Slow and low bouncing is OK for serve and volley, but FAST and low bouncing is ideal for serve and volley.
 

jester911

Rookie
Volleying can't be achieved however if the player can't get to the passing shot. Players are now able to strike the ball in 90 to 100 mph range with excessive spin which was never possible before and keep the ball in the court.

This is the first generation where the players can take a full swing at the ball and keep it in. The days are gone when players had to use finesse and placement to pass the on coming volleyer.

Listen to the former pros and also the current coaches. Carpet or any other surface can have effect but it is simply the current technology that has made it obsolete as a full time tactic.

Paul Annecone was an S&V player and he says it himself as does many others.
 

Larrysümmers

Hall of Fame
i think it has something to do with returning the serve is "easier" back when S V was the big thing, the server had a huge advantage. now not so much
 
Volleying can't be achieved however if the player can't get to the passing shot. Players are now able to strike the ball in 90 to 100 mph range with excessive spin which was never possible before and keep the ball in the court.

This is the first generation where the players can take a full swing at the ball and keep it in. The days are gone when players had to use finesse and placement to pass the on coming volleyer.

Listen to the former pros and also the current coaches. Carpet or any other surface can have effect but it is simply the current technology that has made it obsolete as a full time tactic.

Paul Annecone was an S&V player and he says it himself as does many others.

I recall it being that grass these days are slow and high-bouncing.
 

max

Legend
I like the above poster's phrase, (no joke here), "fairness of a woodie." The equipment must allow both SV & baseline.

To be sure, for max, I like watching all-court S&V, as opposed to mere baseline grinding. And baseline grinding just isn't as much fun to DO.
 

Bengt

Semi-Pro
S and V is a losing strategy at the pro level as a result of STRINGS. Prior to the adoption of poly even the best volleyers the game has ever known lost a ton of points. After poly, the 30th ranked player can put the ball on a player's shoetops. That wasn't the case prior to the late 90's. Just watch the vids. It's plain to see.
 

Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
S and V is a losing strategy at the pro level as a result of STRINGS. Prior to the adoption of poly even the best volleyers the game has ever known lost a ton of points. After poly, the 30th ranked player can put the ball on a player's shoetops. That wasn't the case prior to the late 90's. Just watch the vids. It's plain to see.

that explains why Llodra could take out Berdych in the first round?

it is still my opinion that the best tennis was with the fairness of a woodie, when both S&V and baselining could exist without too much of a majority one side
 

coloskier

Legend
Volleying can't be achieved however if the player can't get to the passing shot. Players are now able to strike the ball in 90 to 100 mph range with excessive spin which was never possible before and keep the ball in the court.

This is the first generation where the players can take a full swing at the ball and keep it in. The days are gone when players had to use finesse and placement to pass the on coming volleyer.

Listen to the former pros and also the current coaches. Carpet or any other surface can have effect but it is simply the current technology that has made it obsolete as a full time tactic.

Paul Annecone was an S&V player and he says it himself as does many others.

Players CANNOT hit 90-100 mph passing shots when they have to strike them at ankle level. The bounce of the ball has as much as anything to do with it. Nadal would be hitting the court first before hitting ANY passing shot with as much topspin as he uses. It is IMPOSSIBLE to take a full swing at a shot when you have to hit it below knee level.
 

aceX

Hall of Fame
Grab a woodie and play with it. See what happens to your returns. Then you'll know why S&V used to work and now doesn't.
 

max

Legend
I think the big point here is that a beautiful kind of tennis has been disappearing before our very eyes. . .
 

aceX

Hall of Fame
I don't see why people hype up serve-return-volley points. Not that fun in my opinion - and that's all it is, my opinion. Variety is good but I would rather watch a crazy rally where one player eventually works into the point. I guess the ATP share my opinion, huh?
 

jester911

Rookie
Players CANNOT hit 90-100 mph passing shots when they have to strike them at ankle level. The bounce of the ball has as much as anything to do with it. Nadal would be hitting the court first before hitting ANY passing shot with as much topspin as he uses. It is IMPOSSIBLE to take a full swing at a shot when you have to hit it below knee level.

When have you ever returned a serve ankle height? That is the beginning of the point. Some of you folks obviously have not listened at all to the pros talk about why it simply does not work any longer as a go to tactic.
 

Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
When have you ever returned a serve ankle height? That is the beginning of the point. Some of you folks obviously have not listened at all to the pros talk about why it simply does not work any longer as a go to tactic.

he has, he would try to return serves on the rise in no-man's land.

Grab a woodie and play with it. See what happens to your returns. Then you'll know why S&V used to work and now doesn't.

Edberg didn't play with a woodie in the 80s...
 

jester911

Rookie
Edberg's opponents did not have the current racket and string technology. Tell me Edberg could S&V against Nadal. It simply would not work.
 

jester911

Rookie
I really find it interesting that in the last few years we have the biggest servers to ever play the game but they can't come close to pulling off S&V. Even Sampras who could do it with the best of them didn't do it all the time because even then he knew it would not win percentage wise.

In the 80's there were only a handful of players that could serve around 130 mph. Now there are dozens. Yet none of them use it that much. Many of these players are very good volleyers yet they don't do it. Don't tell me the reason is they serve too hard to close the net. If they serve 3/4 pace the returners of today would eat their lunch.

So many of you don't really think the string has that much to do with it because when you play with it you don't see that big a difference. That is simply because most of us don't produce the racket head speed the pros do.

I have been watching tennis all of my adult life and the action todays pros get on the ball is way beyond anything the past generations did. Yes they are are striking ground strokes as hard as players used to hit serves.

The surface has absolutely nothing to do with the spin and speed of the way the ball is being struck now. I don't think I can say it any clearer than that.
 

Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
Faster serve for maximum effort serve and volleyer does not use

Slow, high bouncing kick serve he uses

Learn young padawan, Edberg and Rafter you must watch
 

jester911

Rookie
I already addressed that Obinone. His 3/4 kick serve would be eaten alive by todays returners.

There are guys serving kick serves way beyond anything Edberg did. I was watching tennis then too. The serves are bouncing higher now as well also from the strings of today.
 
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Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
I already addressed that Obinone. His 3/4 kick serve would be eaten alive by todays returners.

There are guys serving kick serves way beyond anything Edberg did. I was watching tennis then too. The serves are bouncing higher now as well also from the strings of today.

so you're saying Edberg with today's strings would be eaten alive?

yeah, I'm sure Sampras' kick second would be totally useful in today's era :roll:
 

jester911

Rookie
Sampras had an overall winning record over Edberg so he didn't need it however with the new strings it would be more effective yes.
I find it funny that it is that difficult to admit the newer technology has made parts of the game no longer viable as a stand alone stradegy.

Seems that is where the lack of learning lies.
 
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Bobby Jr

G.O.A.T.
In the 80's there were only a handful of players that could serve around 130 mph. Now there are dozens. Yet none of them use it that much. Many of these players are very good volleyers yet they don't do it...
There is a difference to being able to serve at 130 mph and having a serve well suited to playing a s'n'v game. Good s'n'v serving entails angles, variation etc which many of today's huge servers simply don't show. Roddick is a fine example of someone brought up with the massive bomb serve thinking. He gets less free points against top players than Federer who serves considerably slower on average but usually has much better accuracy and variation. As much as people tout Roddick's serve as a big weapon, it sure doesn't seem much like one most of the time when he plays Federer, Nadal or Murray.
 

jester911

Rookie
It may not be that big of a weapon against the top ten. However it has kept Andy in the top ten for 10 years with a game that is less than complete.
 

aceX

Hall of Fame
Edberg didn't play with a woodie in the 80s...

I know but trying to return with a woodie illustrates how far we've come in terms of returning. 80s racquets are a middle ground - better than woodies but still not good enough at returning to kill S&V
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Serve and Volley ???
Hardly any juniors practice that at all.
Guess what?
As juniors get better, the continue with what brought them success.
 

Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
Sampras had an overall winning record over Edberg so he didn't need it however with the new strings it would be more effective yes.
I find it funny that it is that difficult to admit the newer technology has made parts of the game no longer viable as a stand alone stradegy.

Seems that is where the lack of learning lies.

I'm not saying it didn't. As I said before, there is the fairness of a woodie that allowed for all styles to exist. Technology, the slowing down of the courts, and the way kids learned to play (as LeeD said) all impacted S&Ving falling down in usage. Then there is the teaching of 2HBH, which made it easier for kids to use groundstrokes, and made it less useful to learn slicing/volleying early on as it used to do.

S&V is still used, just not as much as before
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
Federer has played so many grass court matches because he keeps getting to the finals of all of them. Not the case with most other pros.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Thank God that s+v is gone for good. As far as all of you living in the past, just go get all the old time slow motion tennis video you can find. Then sit by yourself + watch the borefest called s+v.
 

Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
Thank God that s+v is gone for good. As far as all of you living in the past, just go get all the old time slow motion tennis video you can find. Then sit by yourself + watch the borefest called s+v.

It's not gone for good. Ryan Harrison (the up and comer) and Michael Llodra are both S&Vers, and I believe Harrison will make top 10 and has more talent as an all-courter than Llodra
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Thank God that s+v is dead + gone forever. For all of you living in the past, just find as much of the old video of your beloved s+v tennis.

Then watch that borefest by yourself, leave the modern game alone.If it was still effective it would be used but it is not+ it is not going to be, so just let it die for Gods sake.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
It's not gone for good. Ryan Harrison (the up and comer) and Michael Llodra are both S&Vers, and I believe Harrison will make top 10 and has more talent as an all-courter than Llodra

So Ryan harrison is going to be a top 10 player by playing s+v style tennis. We will see, but you can dream about it. You see Liodra play one good event indoors of course+ now he is going to be a force with his net rushing tennis. Wake up this guy will remain a nobody.
 

Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
So Ryan harrison is going to be a top 10 player by playing s+v style tennis. We will see, but you can dream about it. You see Liodra play one good event indoors of course+ now he is going to be a force with his net rushing tennis. Wake up this guy will remain a nobody.

this "nobody" Llodra brought his team to the Davis Cup finals...

and as for Harrison, I'm rooting for him. He's not a bad all-court player, and plays baseline when necessary, but does attack the net, unlike other players...
 

mistik

Hall of Fame
Serve and volley gone because return of serve and the groundies of players are so much more powerful.it has nothing to with surfaces.the game created more baseliners since the mid 80s.so it is nothing new.i mean even the likes of Sampras and Becker werent traditional serve and volley players.that says it all.the last typical serve and volley player we have saw is Edberg.
 
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