Has the Eastern Forehand Struck Back to the Mainstream?

rh310 · Jul 26, 2011

BreakPoint said:
Because it is, that's why! That's also why almost no top pros do it.

Besides, how will you ever learn to hit decent volleys if you're so used to using only one face of your racquet by flipping the racquet upside down?

Let me make sure I understand your question: How will you ever learn to hit decent volleys if you hit "rally" groundstrokes without changing grips?

I'd guess you'd learn to hit them the same way if you hit rally groundstrokes with a change of grip:

You'd practice them.

BreakPoint · Jul 26, 2011

rh310 said:
Let me make sure I understand your question: How will you ever learn to hit decent volleys if you hit "rally" groundstrokes without changing grips?

I'd guess you'd learn to hit them the same way if you hit rally groundstrokes with a change of grip:

You'd practice them.

When you become so used to flipping your racquet upside down and using the same side of your racquet face whenever the ball goes towards the backhand side of your body, that's what you're going to do at the net also. It's impossible to hit good backhand volleys with the same side of your racquet as forehand volleys.

LuckyR · Jul 26, 2011

5263 said:
Good question, and you may be correct.
I don't think it should though, as modern swings done right are easier on the body IMO.

I don't disagree with the letter of your statement, but I still stand by my post.

LeeD · Jul 26, 2011

Hardly anything is "impossible" in tennis.
I know a solid 4.5 doubles player, major volleyer, who uses an extreme western grip, same face of racket, for every shot. He can dig out low volleys, defend body shots, and swat waist and higher backhand volleys. And has great forehand volleys.
His serves, I've never analysed, could be anything from conti to eBH.
Our Kiteboard uses the same side of the racket face for most volleys, probably all, and he's closer to 5.0.

BreakPoint · Jul 26, 2011

LeeD said:
Hardly anything is "impossible" in tennis.
I know a solid 4.5 doubles player, major volleyer, who uses an extreme western grip, same face of racket, for every shot. He can dig out low volleys, defend body shots, and swat waist and higher backhand volleys. And has great forehand volleys.
His serves, I've never analysed, could be anything from conti to eBH.
Our Kiteboard uses the same side of the racket face for most volleys, probably all, and he's closer to 5.0.

That's not "volleying". That's "slapping".

LOL

I'd like to see him hit controlled drop volleys, heavy underspin volleys, and control the depth and angle of his volleys using the same side of his racquet face on both backhand volleys and forehand volleys.

rh310 · Jul 26, 2011

BreakPoint said:
When you become so used to flipping your racquet upside down and using the same side of your racquet face whenever the ball goes towards the backhand side of your body, that's what you're going to do at the net also.

Oh, really? Says who?

It's impossible to hit good backhand volleys with the same side of your racquet as forehand volleys.

I don't know; I've never tried. For volley I switch to conti and use either side. I don't know who the guy is you're arguing with who's saying that you use the same side of the stringbed to hit volleys, but it sure isn't me.

skiracer55 · Jul 26, 2011

To start off...

soyizgood said:
Not too long ago the eastern forehand was deemed obsolete. The semiwestern and western forehands were gaining all of the momentum. Folks (talking heads) said the eastern forehand is not suitable for competing at the highest levels. That it's no match for handling high balls and can't impart enough topspin. You have new school instructors teaching the semiwestern to new players off and even encouraging kids to go full western.

Yet, as of February 15, 2010 3 of the top 5 ATP players and 4 of the top 10 use guess what... EASTERN forehands! Federer, Murray, Del Potro, and Tsonga (all have either won slams for been in a slam final). Throw in Clijsters winning the USO and the eastern is still alive (though barely with Ivanovic sucking lately) on the WTA as well.

I've noticed a few people around my area that had semiwestern or western forehands switching back to eastern (I once hit with a guy that went from semiwestern to continental). I think new school teachers need to think twice before disregarding the eastern. It's the most natural forehand grip, easy on the arm, produces punishing flat or heavy topspin shots, and easier to change grips when hitting slices/using a two-handed backhand/approaching the net, among others.

Any tips for eastern forehand players to follow?

...the ATP and WTA players you cite don't use an Eastern grip, they use a SW grip. Second, it's a waaay different thing to say that SW or FW is now fashionable on the ATP/WTA versus what you ought to be using.

Remember, there is also the Conti grip on the FH, and it has its advantages and disadvantages (no switching grips, easier to hit a slice forehand, not a bad approach shot). So when I'm coaching people, what I say is "I use a SW, it has the following pluses and minuses. There is also the Eastern, here are its pluses and minuses. And here, the Conti, second verse, same as the first. In addition, who says you have to be limited to one grip? I use SW on most rally balls, if I want a ton of top, I go to FW, if I am run wide and need to squash shot the ball back in the court, it's Conti...so expand your horizons, it'll make you a better player..."

Jonny S&V · Jul 26, 2011

HiroProtagonist said:
So this is extreme eastern?

That's the closest to my grip that I have seen in a pic of a pro's grip and I was always wondering what to call my grip as it didn't seem strictly eastern.

Yes, I would classify his grip as extreme-eastern.

BreakPoint said:
But hitting with the same side of the racquet face for both forehand and backhand is, well....just so wrong! Even the best pros who use extreme grips, such as Nadal and Henin, change their grips between forehand and backhand and hit with opposite sides of their racquet faces.

Umm, Nadal uses the same side of the racquet for returns, and he might do so on normal groundstrokes as well...

BreakPoint · Jul 26, 2011

Jonny S&V said:
Umm, Nadal uses the same side of the racquet for returns, and he might do so on normal groundstrokes as well...

Um...no, he doesn't. Nadal switches grips on both returns and for normal groundstrokes. He rotates his racquet in his hand to go between forehand and backhand grips and hits with opposite sides of his racquet. You can look it up on YouTube.

Jonny S&V · Jul 27, 2011

BreakPoint said:
Um...no, he doesn't. Nadal switches grips on both returns and for normal groundstrokes. He rotates his racquet in his hand to go between forehand and backhand grips and hits with opposite sides of his racquet. You can look it up on YouTube.

Ah, that changed from when he was younger as well. He used to hold the racquet with his western-forehand and his semi-western left-hand, both on top of the racquet, racquet-face pointing down, and would return with the same face of the racquet. Makes sense that he woulda changed this when he changed grips.

Logan71 · Jul 31, 2011

I stil think this depends upon age.At the courts I go to there is a tennis club on a wednesday night.Mostly middle aged group upwards,they all hit flatter forehands.Obviously differing levels barely a WW forehand in sight.

A couple of the younger players must have more western grips due to their technique.It's not so long ago when player like Rafter,Henman,and Sampras were hitting much milder grips on the forehand,mainly due to the speed and bounce of the surfaces which they played on.

Modern ATP pro's however I think eastern grips will remain the exception rather than the rule.At rec level eastern grips will always flourish.Your ratings in the US differ from the UK but from what I can see of the description,you probably wouldn't need to consider favouring a western grip for the majority of forehands until you were in that 5.0 bracket and higher.

TennisCJC · Aug 1, 2011

Netspirit said:
Kuerten's not changing grips is something I remember from these boards, I don't think such a close-up video can exist.

The video above just shows that Guga (who played with SW FH and EE 1HBH) was pretty formidable at serve returns. It's obvious that having just 1 grip for both FH and BH helps serve returns the most, since there's little time to switch.

Kuerten did not hit with same side of racket for FH and BH. There was a successful Spanish player who did hit with the same side but I cannot remember his name. He played around the late 80s, early 90s if memory is correct.

EFH grip shifted just a wee bit down toward SW is a great grip. Much more variety and much, much better for low balls which are the kiss of death for SW or Full W.

As courts changed from grass to HC and high bouncing grass, grips went from Continental to Eastern to Semi-W. Semi-W is great for hi bounces. Several good points by others above that tall players may be better served with EFH as they don't have as much concern with hi balls due to height and it helps them a lot on low balls.

TennisCJC · Aug 1, 2011

skiracer55 said:
...the ATP and WTA players you cite don't use an Eastern grip, they use a SW grip. Second, it's a waaay different thing to say that SW or FW is now fashionable on the ATP/WTA versus what you ought to be using.

Remember, there is also the Conti grip on the FH, and it has its advantages and disadvantages (no switching grips, easier to hit a slice forehand, not a bad approach shot). So when I'm coaching people, what I say is "I use a SW, it has the following pluses and minuses. There is also the Eastern, here are its pluses and minuses. And here, the Conti, second verse, same as the first. In addition, who says you have to be limited to one grip? I use SW on most rally balls, if I want a ton of top, I go to FW, if I am run wide and need to squash shot the ball back in the court, it's Conti...so expand your horizons, it'll make you a better player..."

I think some of the players are actually as close to EFH as SWFH girp. Federer at times is very very close to EFH with just a slight shift toward SW. Pictures of Del Po also show him with EFH grip with maybe a small shift toward SW. EFH does seem to be gaining popularity. I use EFH with a very slight shift downward toward a SWFH and have for about 30 years now. But, I use continental for volleying, slice forehand returns, and underspin forehand shots. Even Fed and Nadal shift to more continental sometimes - drops shots, Fed's high slice forehand that he uses sometimes. So, Conti is good for the underspin shots. You can actually see pros shift from SWFH or EFH to more conti to hit dropshot.

FedExpress 333 · Aug 1, 2011

Yes, conti is the best for dropers.

Jonny S&V · Aug 1, 2011

TennisCJC said:
You can actually see pros shift from SWFH or EFH to more conti to hit dropshot.

I don't know any pro that hit's a dropper with anything other than conti. I don't know any higher level rec players that hit droppers with anything other than conti...

EDIT: I lump Eastern in with this as well.

TennisCJC · Aug 3, 2011

LeeD said:
Hardly anything is "impossible" in tennis.
I know a solid 4.5 doubles player, major volleyer, who uses an extreme western grip, same face of racket, for every shot. He can dig out low volleys, defend body shots, and swat waist and higher backhand volleys. And has great forehand volleys.
His serves, I've never analysed, could be anything from conti to eBH.
Our Kiteboard uses the same side of the racket face for most volleys, probably all, and he's closer to 5.0.

Your buddy is an exception. When A-Rod first hit the tour the ex-pro commentators laughed at his SW forehand volley. And, it was and still is a major weakness. The cleanest, easiest way to hit a volley is with a grip close to a Conti. I can not think of a single "great" volleyer that used anything other than this. And, I have never seen a good pro, collegiate, or USTA 4.0 or above volleyer who used the same side of the racket in my 35 years of playing.

The W grip is good for high balls where you want to hit topspin. It may the best grip for this type of play. The reason it is good is it naturally puts the racket in a slightly closed postion at high contract points which is great for topspin.

For volleys and slice shots, you want the racket slightly open at contact as you are trying to impact a bit of underspin or trying to hit a relatively flat ball. A W grip put the racket in the wrong (closed) position to hit underspin unless you contort your wrist to an arkward angle. The vast majority of us don't have the skills to contort our wrist to precisely the same angle to hit a volley. I don't want to have to calibrate this contortion when my opponent hit a hard passing shot at me. I prefer to just take by hand/strings to the ball with a conti grip with the assurance that my strings will be slightly open on contact as thats the natural position for the conti grip.

FedExpress 333 · Aug 4, 2011

^^^^^

Agreed on everything.

Anyway, played a junior today who uses an eastern grip, he hits lots of TS, very heavy ball, but not much net clearance and a bit inconsistent. Maybe more and more juniors are using the EFH grip?

5263 · Aug 4, 2011

aimr75 said:
Right, you know this for sure, even though this clearly looks like an eastern

Federer for the most part uses an eastern and rarely would deviate from it, nothing ambiguous about it

I expect that many of these players vary their grips based on the ball they are working with.

5263 · Sep 6, 2011

toly said:
Let’s compare two players.

1. The wrist flexion has angular range 180 degrees. It gives us too much freedom to generate errors. The ulnar deviation has just 90 degrees, that’s why SW FH might be more consistent stroke.
2. It looks like Nadal grips handle very hard, Federer doesn't. In this case Rafa still is able to produce fast ulnar deviation, but fast flexion would be practically impossible.
3. From safety point of view, I believe the semiwestern is the best grip.

Why do you say Ulnar deviation? Don't most employ radial deviation in the stroke?

toly · Sep 6, 2011

5263 said:
Why do you say Ulnar deviation? Don't most employ radial deviation in the stroke?

According to link http://www.vistalab.com/commoninjuries.asp#cf6
Radial and ulnar deviation is the side-to-side movement of the hand at the wrist, toward or away from the thumb.

5263 · Sep 6, 2011

toly said:
According to link http://www.vistalab.com/commoninjuries.asp#cf6
Radial and ulnar deviation is the side-to-side movement of the hand at the wrist, toward or away from the thumb.

And does not your link show the direction used on the TS Fh to be radial, not ulnar?

toly · Sep 6, 2011

5263 said:
And does not your link show the direction used on the TS Fh to be radial, not ulnar?

You should look at the picture from opposite side of the screen. The written definition is also very clear. The hand should run away from the thumb.
My simple definition: If your palm is facing the sky, counterclockwise rotation of the hand is wrist ulnar deviation.

Henin rotates her hand counterclockwise, thus she uses the wrist ulnar deviation.

The same is in this picture; no much more fun to watch!

Xizel · Sep 6, 2011

I believe ulnar deviation is used during the takeback and radial deviation is used during the WW motion.

toly · Sep 6, 2011

Xizel said:
I believe radial deviation is used during the WW motion.

What is it doing during WW motion?

5263 · Sep 6, 2011

Xizel said:
I believe ulnar deviation is used during the takeback and radial deviation is used during the WW motion.

So you see what I do, that it starts with an ulnar dev then moves thru the shot with a radial dev, right?

Xizel · Sep 6, 2011

toly said:
What is it doing during WW motion?

Creating the wiping motion along with the rise and retraction/flexion of the elbow.

5263 said:
So you see what I do, that it starts with an ulnar dev then moves thru the shot with a radial dev, right?

Yes.

5263 · Sep 6, 2011

Xizel said:
Yes.

Exactly, so the motion on TS is a radial deviation.

toly · Sep 6, 2011

5263 said:
Exactly, so the motion on TS is a radial deviation.

Give me please your definition of wrist ulnar deviation, because you lost me completely!!!

5263 · Sep 6, 2011

toly said:
Give me please your definition of wrist ulnar deviation, because you lost me completely!!!

hand moving towards the Ulna, right.

during the stroke to and thru the ball does the hand not move towards the radius?

Radius is moving to thumb side
Ulnar is moving to Ulna side

5263 · Sep 7, 2011

toly said:
Give me please your definition of wrist ulnar deviation, because you lost me completely!!!

Did you have your definitions backwards?
because the hand will move towards thumbside during the TS Fh swing, right?

Ash_Smith · Sep 7, 2011

TS forehand, for a right hander will have (should have?) pronation of the forearm/upper arm and radial deviation of the wrist through the contact point and into the extension/finish/whatever you want to call it!.

cheers

rkelley · Sep 7, 2011

Ash_Smith said:
TS forehand, for a right hander will have (should have?) pronation of the forearm/upper arm and radial deviation of the wrist through the contact point and into the extension/finish/whatever you want to call it!.

cheers

That's what my wrist and arm are doing as I sit here using a pencil as a racquet.

5263 · Sep 7, 2011

Ash_Smith said:
TS forehand, for a right hander will have (should have?) pronation of the forearm/upper arm and radial deviation of the wrist through the contact point and into the extension/finish/whatever you want to call it!.

cheers

Agreed as well.

Ash_Smith · Sep 7, 2011

That said, I can see where Toly gets ulnar deviation from if the grip is extreme (knuckle on bevel 5 or further round).

cheers

rkelley · Sep 7, 2011

Ash_Smith said:
That said, I can see where Toly gets ulnar deviation from if the grip is extreme (knuckle on bevel 5 or further round).

cheers

OK, I see it now with the extreme W grip. I hadn't tried that. Great catch.

5263 · Sep 7, 2011

rkelley said:
OK, I see it now with the extreme W grip. I hadn't tried that. Great catch.

IMO none of the pics show a grip that extreme.
Maybe I'm just not seeing it.

Ash_Smith · Sep 7, 2011

^^^I'm sure you can use your imagination to picture what a western grip looks like!

5263 · Sep 7, 2011

Ash_Smith said:
^^^I'm sure you can use your imagination to picture what a western grip looks like!

No, I see your point and can pick up a racket, see and feel it.
I just was saying that he had pics with what he was saying, but
none of them seemed to be that severe.

bhupaes · Sep 7, 2011

Ash_Smith said:
That said, I can see where Toly gets ulnar deviation from if the grip is extreme (knuckle on bevel 5 or further round).

cheers

Ah, I also see how it is possible - for the first time. But looking at slow motion videos of the Nadal FH, I still see some ulnar deviation at the bottom of the backswing, and radial deviation at the finish...

Ash_Smith · Sep 7, 2011

^^^Yeah, it makes sense that there could be some radial deviation at the finish, as the pronation of the upper-arm/forearm will bring the thumb around (so it's effectively pointing down) and the deceleration of the racquet may cause radial deviation.

cheers

WeaponX · Sep 12, 2011

i want to revive this thread, to describe my situation.
Almost all my life, i was using SW almost Western grip for forehand, til last year that i change to eastern, i change because my forehands didn't penetrates the court well, i was consistent but i wasn't able to make winners, so i change to eastern, make topspins is no problem, but higher balls or balls that come with a lot of topspins are difficult to handle (i play in clay courts).
so i need help, i continue to play with eastern? or i go back to western because is more consistent? i like to play close to the baseline, and take the ball on the rise.

pd: sorry for my english

rkelley · Sep 12, 2011

Are you using full Eastern? If so, you might want to try semi-Western or strong Eastern (between Eastern and semi-Western). Those grips both still allow you to hit through the ball more easily than a Western but make high balls a bit easier than a full Eastern.

Your English is fine. I can understand what you're asking.

WeaponX · Sep 13, 2011

Yes i use eastern, i tried strong eastern but if i do that in the next stroke i change to eastern, everybody tell me that my game is no suitable for clay courts, because i don't hit with many topspins and y play to close to the baseline, i guess that i'll keep trying to practice on consintency, thanks for the reply

Agassi-Fan · Sep 13, 2011

I have been using an eastern forhand grip my entire life and have a very nice forehand. I find that i do struggle with people who have very whippy western forehands becuase their ball is heavy and bounces high up.

People do have problems returning my forehand due to the fact that it has low clearnace over the net and it penetrates deep into the court. Problem is I don't have much margin due to the fact of the low net clearence.

Has the Eastern Forehand Struck Back to the Mainstream?

Hall of Fame

Bionic Poster

Legend

Bionic Poster

Bionic Poster

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Bionic Poster

Hall of Fame

Rookie

Legend

Legend

Professional

Hall of Fame

Legend

Professional

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

Hall of Fame

G.O.A.T.

Hall of Fame

Professional

Hall of Fame

G.O.A.T.

Professional

G.O.A.T.

Hall of Fame

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

Legend

Hall of Fame

G.O.A.T.

Legend

Hall of Fame

G.O.A.T.

Legend

G.O.A.T.

Professional

Legend

New User

Hall of Fame

New User

Rookie

Similar threads