Llodra fined.

Depends....Is the guy in the crowd Jewish?

Does Lodra have some secret ties with the Nazis? If he does we could be talking hate crime and Mike may deserve some time in prison.

What fantasy world do you live in where French people are polite towards other cultures? Lodra is actually known for being a pretty nice guy on the tour. Last I heard he wasnt killing puppies and raping women in his spare time.

Well it is being played in Israel, so most likely he is Jewish, but it's irrelevant as long as he believed the guy was Jewish. I'm not saying anything about French people, I'm talking about Llodra.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
Fine so he keeps the observation in his mind, what's the point in explicitly saying she is chinese??????? What does he get out of it????? People wouldn't say oh look there walks a man on the street with shoes on. There is no point in saying he is wearing shoes out of the blue. And there was nothing Llodra could gain from making the out loud observation that she was chinese, unless it was racially motivated.

Even if Monfils said it, it would have been racist.

Edited my post, but looks like you didn't see it yet, so here:

People forget that in the heat of the moment, we don't have the luxury of deliberated reasoning before we choose our expletives. If we had the luxury of rationalising our words, we'd have not said anything at all. Therefore pointing out the value or lack thereof of pointing out her race is irrelevant. We just use the words we use most often and try link it with the subject of our anger, and, in this case, since Llodra knew nothing about the woman besides her sex and race to distinguish her, it would've only been natural to use one or the other, or both. He chose race (and got it wrong).
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
People focus on difference to define each other.

According to a previous post, this is what he said:

"putain foutu chatte chinois"

All the first three adjectives are misogynistic insults that men the world over use against women.

And if he wanted to use Chinese specific insults there's a multitude he could have chosen, but he did not.



What's the point in adding the chinese reference???? :) What does he gain from it?
 
Edited my post, but looks like you didn't see it yet, so here:

People forget that in the heat of the moment, we don't have the luxury of deliberated reasoning before we choose our expletives. If we had the luxury of rationalising our words, we'd have not said anything at all. Therefore pointing out the value or lack thereof of pointing out her race is irrelevant. We just use the words we use most often and try link it with the subject of our anger, and, in this case, since Llodra knew nothing about the woman besides her sex and race to distinguish her, it would've only been natural to use one or the other, or both. He chose race (and got it wrong).

That actually makes it even worse. It means it's part of his instinct. It's built into his brainstem and the racism is deep within him that even if he tries to reason his way out of it, he will never realize it. It's ingrained in his being. Scary.

p.s. I am certainly not trying to be self-righteous here. I may be no better than him and perhaps have done the same. Wouldn't change that I was racist.
 
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People focus on difference to define each other.

According to a previous post, this is what he said:

"putain foutu chatte chinois"

All the first three adjectives are misogynistic insults that men the world over use against women.

And if he wanted to use Chinese specific insults there's a multitude he could have chosen, but he did not.

LOL, you're a joke dude. He's angry at her and at that moment he's focusing on the differences she is relative to others because he want to write an essay on Chineseness to use your word? :) LOL. Get a clue. There was no reason for him to say chinese especially in that context. What if he had shouted so the entire stadium could hear and he said to her "BE QUIET YOU CHINESE" looking directly at her. How would that go over?
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
So you make up your own words, put them in LLodra's mouth and try to justify your stupid argument that way!

You don't even understand the French words quoted, do you?, because you don't know French.

If you don't know what he said in his native French than you're not entitled to have any point of view.



LOL, you're a joke dude. He's angry at her and at that moment he's focusing on the differences she is relative to others because he want to write an essay on Chineseness to use your word? :) LOL. Get a clue. There was no reason for him to say chinese especially in that context. What if he had shouted so the entire stadium could hear and he said to her "BE QUIET YOU CHINESE" looking directly at her. How would that go over?
 

magnut

Hall of Fame
Well it is being played in Israel, so most likely he is Jewish, but it's irrelevant as long as he believed the guy was Jewish. I'm not saying anything about French people, I'm talking about Llodra.

You are absolutely right. People of different cultures and different ethnicities should all be made to act the same. Otherwise we as "the good guys" can place labels on them like racist etc. That way we all keep our cultural differences, get along with each other, and allow each other to think and act differently.

Ya see how this works?

Or maybe we should just ignore people if they are rude or different and leave each other alone if we dont like them.

Do you honeslty think he should be fined money for calling someone chinese when he didnt understand she was Korean. So Lodra is rude and ignorant. Big deal, its not illegal to be rude or ignorant. If I call an Asian ....Chinese when they are Japanese should I be fined?

Sheesh. Maybe Lodra and this Asian chick should get married. They already have the lingo and banter down pat.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
That actually makes it even worse. It means it's part of his instinct. It's built into his brainstem and the racism is deep within him that even if he tries to reason his way out of it, he will never realize it. It's ingrained in his being. Scary.

Look, I'll explain it as simply as possible, because you seem rather intent on making Llodra look like a diehard, pillowcase-wearing racist. If I told you that Llodra isn't actually Nadal, despite also being a lefty, would that help? :p

Anyway:
  1. Llodra doesn't know the girl's name
  2. All he knows is that the person is FEMALE and that she's ASIAN
  3. Most Asian people are assumed to be Chinese (partly because there are more of them than any other Asians, or anybody else for that matter)
  4. Since he can't call her out by name, he would've needed something else to describe her. Only her nationality distinguished her, so he chose nationality.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Yes, its hard not to see the use of the word 'Chinese' as simply a means of identifying that person in a crowd.

And he hasn't used a phrase like 'damn Chinese", nor used the usual derogatory synonyms for Chinese nor the usual descriptors of Chinese people used by racists.

All his insults are directed at her femaleness.

But I don't have the definitive text of what he actually said in French.
 

Cormorant

Professional
I'm reminded of the Troicki-Ferrero match this year down under, during which Viktor had a fan chucked out for shouting: "Hey Troicki, how do you say choke in Serbian?" A lot of people claimed that guy was a racist, but I'm not sure if Viktor gave any reason for complaining other than that the guy was being annoying. The incident's on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDJOgQ19dJU
 

ark_28

Legend
It may or may not be racist but it's stupid and he should not just have been fined he should be banned!

Whether the girl is Chinese or not is not the issue, he has stereotyped her and made a judgement on her because of her accent she may well be Chinese but she could also be Korean or Japanese etc and proud of her root Llodra has no right bringing where she is from!

Would he like it is a fan shouted to him "f**king Belgians" or f**king Swiss" ??
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
nonsense - Youre just making stuff up.

You have to look at what he actually said in French.

And judge him on that alone.



It may or may not be racist but it's stupid and he should not just have been fined he should be banned!

Whether the girl is Chinese or not is not the issue, he has stereotyped her and made a judgement on her because of her accent she may well be Chinese but she could also be Korean or Japanese etc and proud of her root Llodra has no right bringing where she is from!

Would he like it is a fan shouted to him "f**king Belgians" or f**king Swiss" ??
 

darrinbaker00

Professional
None of us can say for sure if what Mr. Llodra said was racist, because none of us were there. Simply reading a transcript will not give us the whole story, because none of us heard the the tone of his voice or saw the expression on his face when he said it. Was it bad? Of course. Should Mr. Llodra have been fined for it? Of course. Was it racist? I don't know, and neither do any of you.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
It may or may not be racist but it's stupid and he should not just have been fined he should be banned!
Agree

Whether the girl is Chinese or not is not the issue, he has stereotyped her and made a judgement on her because of her accent she may well be Chinese but she could also be Korean or Japanese etc and proud of her root Llodra has no right bringing where she is from!
He hasn't made a stereotype. He just made an assumption, and a pretty logical one at that too. There are more Chinese people in the world than there are Koreans, Japanese, Mongolians, etc. 99% of the time he'd have been right in thinking she was Chinese.

Would he like it is a fan shouted to him "f**king Belgians" or f**king Swiss" ??
This example doesn't work. If he were Belgian and a fan called him a "f_cking Frenchman", then that would be a more accurate example. But even then, it isn't racist, just ignorant.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Here's one report of the incident that even thinks the woman was Chinese, censors the words used so you can't make any sense of what he said, and then goes on to say he was insulting everyone:



ML smacked ball out of court, threw racquet, called female Gulbis supporter in crowd a '(bleep)ing Chinese.' I confirmed later with brother of woman."

Officials said Llodra was also verbally abusive towards the ballkids and their coordinator during the match. Besides the fine, Llodra had to apologize for his actions.
 
M

monfed

Guest
So, Llodra has paid the fine and apologized. What's the point of slandering him further?
 

FlashFlare11

Hall of Fame
Chinese is not a race but nationality.

Still, what is it about "Indian" Wells that brings out such discriminatory behavior and slurs?

Probably because it's in America. So A.) Players get exposed to many different races and cultures they don't normally see and B.) Our media makes a big deal about even the tiniest instance of racism or potential racism.

I don't know where you live, but if you remember David Ferrer apparently hitting a ball towards a baby in Miami last year, that was huge news here.
 

magnut

Hall of Fame
Chinese is not a race but nationality.

Still, what is it about "Indian" Wells that brings out such discriminatory behavior and slurs?

Balls fly and you make more errors.

Plus its in America and we took care of those indians along time ago. Indians now have become racist over it. It should be called American Wells. Where is the Black and Mexican Wells tournaments. Clearly the tour is selling out to either Racist Indians or Middle East money tycoons.
 

AtomicForehand

Hall of Fame
So, Llodra has paid the fine and apologized. What's the point of slandering him further?

"Slander" is when you spread maliciously false information about a person.

This information doesn't appear to be false. Llodra paid the fine and apologized instead of denying or fighting the charge.

In other news, I seriously can't believe most of the idiot comments in this thread. A pathetic bunch of posters for sure.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
Probably because it's in America. So A.) Players get exposed to many different races and cultures they don't normally see and B.) Our media makes a big deal about even the tiniest instance of racism or potential racism.

To the point where they're overcompensating. Why on earth would you have a Black History Month and an International Women's Day if you actually thought blacks and women are the same as anybody else?
 

magnut

Hall of Fame
So, Llodra has paid the fine and apologized. What's the point of slandering him further?

He is a potentially dangerous person who may be possible of hate crimes. Therfore he should be sensored.

He has already proven that when he is not happy he can be rude and its just not normal to act like that.:shock:
 

cknobman

Legend
The only time you can do stuff like this and it not be racist is directing your comments to a "Caucasian" (preferably an american male)
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
He apologized, but I'm not sure he's happy about the fine or the suggestion he was racially motivated.

The fact is that there are hardly any clear facts in the case to make judgements beyond that he was seriously rude in his behaviour and deserved some sort of punishment.



"Slander" is when you spread maliciously false information about a person.

This information doesn't appear to be false. Llodra paid the fine and apologized instead of denying or fighting the charge.

In other news, I seriously can't believe most of the idiot comments in this thread. A pathetic bunch of posters for sure.
 

magnut

Hall of Fame
To the point where they're overcompensating. Why on earth would you have a Black History Month and an International Women's Day if you actually thought blacks and women are the same as anybody else?

Why would you have affirmative action?
 

FlashFlare11

Hall of Fame
He is a potentially dangerous person who may be possible of hate crimes. Therfore he should be sensored.

He has already proven that when he is not happy he can be rude and its just not normal to act like that.:shock:

I agree. I'm not even a white American.

By the way, do you live in America? It's pretty ridiculous how much we have to watch what we say in fear of accidentally offending someone.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
He is a potentially dangerous person who may be possible of hate crimes. Therfore he should be sensored.

He has already proven that when he is not happy he can be rude and its just not normal to act like that.:shock:

Of course!

We at TTW are all angels. We don't have flamers and trolls, and respect all players equally and are reasonable and objective when our favourite players lose.
 
M

monfed

Guest
"Slander" is when you spread maliciously false information about a person.

This information doesn't appear to be false. Llodra paid the fine and apologized instead of denying or fighting the charge.

In other news, I seriously can't believe most of the idiot comments in this thread. A pathetic bunch of posters for sure.

Thanks for the correction, but I see you get my point.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
Racism is basically hating on a race based on poor or no justifications (e.g. stereotypes).

If the woman took offence at being labelled a Chinese when she was not, wouldn't that make her the racist? What's wrong with being Chinese?



There are probably in excess of 2 billion Chinese people in the world, including those living overseas and those living in Special Administrative Regions (SAR) like Hong Kong and Macau. Chances of assuming an Asian to be Chinese and getting it right is very high. In fact, you could even say Llodra's unlucky that the woman wasn't Chinese (unless it's one of those people who are ethnically Chinese and think they are Canadian, having lived there for a grand total of about 4 years; I hate those people).

Merely adding the word "****ing" before "Chinese" doesn't make the overall sentence/statement racist. The word is used as an emphasis and nothing more.

Besides, it's not like he could've stopped to ask her name, age, sex (because you know, you could offend transvestites, transsexuals and hermaphrodites who possess most or all the characteristics of a woman, but are not, applying the same logic), nationality, ethnicity and sexual orientation, before mouthing her off on (inter)national TV, right?

You do realize that many of the different Asian nationalities and/or ethnicities nearly hate each other, dont you...

To call any Asian, Chinese is quite ignorant and can be highly insulting!
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
He's been levied a fine, and he may have had a fine garnished from his paycheck but he hasn't admitted to anything other than ill-tempered behaviour for which he did apologize.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
You do realize that many of the different Asian nationalities and/or ethnicities nearly hate each other, dont you...

To call any Asian, Chinese is quite ignorant and can be highly insulting!

Mate, I'm Korean.

My grandmother got married because had she not, she would've been forced to prostitute herself to the Japanese occupation forces, so I probably know the animosity between Asians better than most people on this board.

I've had people ask if I were Chinese or Japanese plenty of times before; never get offended. Fail to see why I should either, over an honest mistake.

Or maybe I'm just too rational; monfed said I'm too objective to be a Nadal fan.
 
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magnut

Hall of Fame
He's been levied a fine, and he may have had a fine garnished from his paycheck but he hasn't admitted to anything other than ill-tempered behaviour for which he did apologize.

good enough for me. Personally, if it were me I would just take the ball kids out for some freedom fries. Loud mouthed spectators should not be suprised if a player get a banter going. Hell, Conners would have been banned before he won a Major in todays game. Now we hail him as one of the greats who brought life to the game.
 
M

monfed

Guest
I've been called an "effing Indian" twice, once I got offended, once I didnot. Depends on the context. In this case, the context works against Meekah. However he's paid the fine and apologized. I don't think more needs to be said about him,really.
 

FlashFlare11

Hall of Fame
I've been called an "effing Indian" twice, once I got offended, once I didnot. Depends on the context. In this case, the context works against Meekah. However he's paid the fine and apologized. I don't think more needs to be said about him,really.

I'm Indian and I've been called an "Arab", "Osama bin Laden's cousin", "Saddam Hussein", etc. I got offended the first time, but didn't let the rest of them get to me. There's a lot of ignorance when it comes to race, no matter where you go.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
Of course, I'm not surprised to see the conservative, mainly white male, mantra deriding political correctness or the need for civil discourse as a whole and the consequences for not adhering to such...

Point is: 'P.C.' may be an irritant to you (it even is to me sometimes particularly if its not accurate i.e. 'African Americans'), but ask any minority and they would gladly trade hundreds of years of entrenched-enforced- inferiority with the last few decades of entrenched-enforced- political correctness!
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Llodra should be made to realize that God invented tennis so that we can lawfully and honestly destroy other people on the field of battle by depriving them of the money and fame that only we deserve because only we should be victorious.

Oh, that's right, he was losing at the time.
 

FlashFlare11

Hall of Fame
Of course, I'm not surprised to see the conservative, mainly white male, mantra deriding political correctness or the need for civil discourse as a whole and the consequences for not adhering to such...

Point is: 'P.C.' may be an irritant to you (it even is to me sometimes particularly if its not accurate i.e. 'African Americans'), but ask any minority and they would gladly trade hundreds of years of entrenched-enforced- inferiority with the last few decades of entrenched-enforced- political correctness!

Political correctness is a good thing, if not taken too far. Slang is getting far too out of hand. It seems like everyday there's a new, potentially offensive word or phrase that I have to watch out for. That's ridiculous!
 
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Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Humanity is based on hatred.

We know this from the fact that all religions preach love ..

for members of their own religion (but never succeed)

Or like Christianity preach universal love (that never prevented killing)

If that's what religion teaches its because they acknowledge that humanity is based on hatred and it rather blithely thinks it can change that.

We cling to families, including big families like nations, and exclude others.

The first hatred is of course between man and woman.

Does not the bible almost begin with Adam and Eve.

But I don't think people deride civil discourse, but political correctness does tend to be like a religion - hectoring us to be better while denying the dirty little truth that we all hate.



Of course, I'm not surprised to see the conservative, mainly white male, mantra deriding political correctness or the need for civil discourse as a whole and the consequences for not adhering to such...

Point is: 'P.C.' may be an irritant to you (it even is to me sometimes particularly if its not accurate i.e. 'African Americans'), but ask any minority and they would gladly trade hundreds of years of entrenched-enforced- inferiority with the last few decades of entrenched-enforced- political correctness!
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
Of course, I'm not surprised to see the conservative, mainly white male, mantra deriding political correctness or the need for civil discourse as a whole and the consequences for not adhering to such...

Point is: 'P.C.' may be an irritant to you (it even is to me sometimes particularly if its not accurate i.e. 'African Americans'), but ask any minority and they would gladly trade hundreds of years of entrenched-enforced- inferiority with the last few decades of entrenched-enforced- political correctness!

I happen to be a liberal, "yellow" male, so clearly you should take heed some of your own advice not make supposedly-offensive generalisations like assuming that all of us are conservative, white and male.

Sorry, but political-correctness is for most intents and purposes, a bad thing. Politeness however, is a good thing, and I think you have the two confused for the same thing, which they are not. Political-correctness is politeness taken too far.

Being polite involves obeying common courtesies and respect. Poltical-correctness is "tyranny with manners" (Charlton Heston) because it involves not being able to say anything that runs the risk of offending other people, which is a lot of things. That's why we're now stuck with having to say redundant things like "in my opinion, I believe" and "I personally believe", just so that nobody has to go crying to mommy (or should I say "parents"?) about some words that some random person (therefore male and/or female and including the possibility of those who may have difficulty providing a straightforward answer, including, but not limited to transsexuals who have not completed the sex change process) said online.

Seriously, isn't "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" something we tell our children, for Christ's sake? I mean, God's sake? I mean, Pete's sake? I mean, someone important's sake?
 
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FlamEnemY

Hall of Fame
There are probably in excess of 2 billion Chinese people in the world, including those living overseas and those living in Special Administrative Regions (SAR) like Hong Kong and Macau...

I agree. Maybe my attempt at sarcasm was not obvious enough.

Anyway, $2, 500 should not be too much for him.
 

FlashFlare11

Hall of Fame
Poor you! It's so HARD to be civilized!

Sorry, I don't know about you, but I'm not a huge fan of having my vocabulary shrunk by a bunch of high schoolers and college students who decide to make regular words obscene and then have them become an online sensation, and then, all of a sudden, become taboo. I'm not talking about words that have a history of being offensive, I'm talking about words that form everyday (and yes, I've had racial slurs thrown against me).
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
Sorry, I don't know about you, but I'm not a huge fan of having my vocabulary shrunk by a bunch of high schoolers and college students who decide to make regular words obscene and then have them become an online sensation, and then, all of a sudden, become taboo. I'm not talking about words that have a history of being offensive, I'm talking about words that form everyday (and yes, I've had racial slurs thrown against me).

Watch out, there's word that the cartoon "Tom & Jerry" are named after slang used to describe British and German soldiers in WWII...so yeah...watch out who you discuss your childhood cartoons with :p
 

FlashFlare11

Hall of Fame
Watch out, there's word that the cartoon "Tom & Jerry" are named after slang used to describe British and German soldiers in WWII...so yeah...watch out who you discuss your childhood cartoons with :p

I honestly can't tell whether you're being sarcastic or not.

Am I saying something really wrong here?
 
M

monfed

Guest
I'm Indian and I've been called an "Arab", "Osama bin Laden's cousin", "Saddam Hussein", etc. I got offended the first time, but didn't let the rest of them get to me. There's a lot of ignorance when it comes to race, no matter where you go.

I bet you probably giggled on some of them didn't you? Some of the things I've been called are downright funny(not sure If I can mention them here). But you're right about the ignorance bit.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
I happen to be a liberal, "yellow" male, so clearly you should take heed some of your own advice not make supposedly-offensive generalisations like assuming that all of us are conservative, white and male.

Sorry, but political-correctness is for most intents and purposes, a bad thing. Politeness however, is a good thing, and I think you have the two confused for the same thing, which they are not. Political-correctness is politeness taken too far.

Being polite involves obeying common courtesies and respect. Poltical-correctness is "tyranny with manners" (Charlton Heston) because it involves not being able to say anything that runs the risk of offending other people, which is a lot of things. That's why we're now stuck with having to say redundant things like "in my opinion, I believe" and "I personally believe", just so that nobody has to go crying to mommy (or should I say "parents"?) about some words that some random person (therefore male and/or female and including the possibility of those who may have difficulty providing a straightforward answer, including, but not limited to transsexuals who have not completed the sex change process) said online.

Seriously, isn't "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" something we tell our children, for Christ's sake? I mean, God's sake? I mean, Pete's sake? I mean, someone important's sake?

Ah, yea... thats why i said 'mainly' (context anyone)...

And again, i also said that I to sometimes find political corrctness to be irritating. However, P.C. is basically forced politeness; i get that its the 'forced' part that many (mostly conservatives, white males) find offensive. But taking offense to it, is basically ignoring or diminishing the cause for P.C. in the first place; the oppression (in its many forms) of minorites over the years In America (and often government enforced oppression).

So, to try and right that wrong, we have government and/or society enforced political correctness or affirmative action etc now... As we continue to progress there will be less and less need for such things.

Also P.C. does not stop anyone from saying anything; you just have to deal with the consequences of saying something out of bounds.
 
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