If Federer had a winning H2H against everyone, would you consider him the GOAT?

Enigma_87 · Jul 31, 2012

borg number one said:
Pancho being right about what exactly? Also, why is the example of there not being constant progression in the NBA a "stupid analogy"? Jordan throws a big wrench in the constant progression theory. In addition, they play basketball "games" not "matches" in the NBA. Besides Jordan, look at centers like Ewing and Robinson. Are the centers of today better than them? Why not?

Laver was 5' 8''. Not to take away anything from him, but can you imagine playing serve and volley at Wimbledon today with the current technology and rackets?

Yes Laver is an all time great, but his physique wouldn't allow him to be dominant in the current field.

6-1 6-3 6-0 · Jul 31, 2012

Federer fans still have something to cheer about.

He could go for other personal records, such as reversing the 0-2 HC slam H2H he has with

Rafa

. (Though this is not likely.)

Zarfot Z · Jul 31, 2012

6-1 6-3 6-0 said:
Federer fans still have something to cheer about. He could go for other personal records, such as reversing the 0-2 HC slam H2H he has with Rafa . (Though this is not likely.)

Answer the question.

Povl Carstensen · Jul 31, 2012

smoledman said:
Federer will be remembered as the guy who couldn't beat Rafa on clay.

ledwix said:
Actually everyone will be remembered as that guy, since Nadal is the most dominant single surface player ever. But Fed will still go down as the greatest player overall when taking everything into account. That's what rankings are for, to show consistency in results over an 11 month season, something that Nadal has always struggled with, which is why his weeks at #1 are far closer to Djokovic than to Federer and will be even closer by the end of this season, regardless of whether Fed or Djoke comes out on top.

This sums it up pretty good.

nadal2012uso2013ao · Jul 31, 2012

The "GOAT" is Nadal's slam *****.

Povl Carstensen · Jul 31, 2012

On clay yes and so what.

nadal2012uso2013ao · Jul 31, 2012

Australian Open 2-0, ouch.

And Wimbledon 1-2, but Nadal had the last laugh, ouch.

Iron Man · Jul 31, 2012

false premise , Federer is already the GOAT with his losing H2H against Nadal

he's human after all and nobody's perfect

Povl Carstensen · Jul 31, 2012

Iron Man said:
false premise , Federer is already the GOAT with his losing H2H against Nadal

he's human after all and nobody's perfect

This and

nadal2012uso2013ao said:
Australian Open 2-0, ouch.

And Wimbledon 1-2, but Nadal had the last laugh, ouch.

Yes, 3-2 on other surfaces, totally pales against Federers other records.

primetennis · Jul 31, 2012

nadal2012uso2013ao said:
I think even Federer's fan base would admit that. Same thing would happen if Federer played prime Connors or Sampras. Even the guys who rarely won slams were much tougher mentally than today's top 10. Federer would struggle to win a slam in the 80s and 90s, because his talent would be overshadowed by his mental shortcomings (which would be exposed by men).

just because federer lost a few close matches you can't say that he is mentally weak..in fact roger is very strong mentally which is why he accomplished so much..he has won a few matches being 0-2 sets down..how many times has nadal done that??also people like you who think that only nadal is mentally strong are complete d***heads..

Russeljones · Jul 31, 2012

Mustard said:
Has he? Where's Federer's 200 tournament wins like Laver, or 8 years as the world's best player like Gonzales? And before you say "different era", the same applies with Gonzales who was banned from the mainstream majors (amateurs only) from age 21 to age 40.

As much as Federer has achieved, there are still other legends of tennis on the GOAT contender list.

When are we going to stop bringing up the achievements from the amateur era? That's like Romario counting the goals he scored in warm-up pre-season tournaments.

nadal2012uso2013ao · Jul 31, 2012

Povl Carstensen said:
This and
Yes, 3-2 on other surfaces, totally pales against Federers other records.

How does 2-8 look? That's Federer's record at the slams vs Nadal. The "GOAT" is Nadal's b1tch, on the grandest stage. I have no doubt it will be 3-0 at the Australian Open if they meet again. I hope we get to see a US Open meeting too, because that would give Nadal the Career Grand Slam vs Federer.

6-1 6-3 6-0 · Jul 31, 2012

Povl Carstensen said:
On clay yes

Rafa

is 8-2 against Federer in ALL slams. Only 5 of those 10 meetings were on clay. It's pointless taking away the 5-0 Roland Garros H2H, since not only does Nadal still lead 3-2, but you should also take away Federer's best surface as well, which people claim to be grass. H2H becomes 2-0 in favour of Nadal.

6-1 6-3 6-0 · Jul 31, 2012

nadal2012uso2013ao said:
How does 2-8 look? That's Federer's record at the slams vs Nadal. The "GOAT" is Nadal's b1tch, on the grandest stage. I have no doubt it will be 3-0 at the Australian Open if they meet again. I hope we get to see a US Open meeting too, because that would give Nadal the Career Grand Slam vs Federer.

I hoped for it in 2010 and in 2011. But I'd prefer it to be in the final of the US Open. But I'm still happy with what we got in 2010 and 2011; more Nadal-Djokovic.

nadal2012uso2013ao · Jul 31, 2012

6-1 6-3 6-0 said:
I hoped for it in 2010 and in 2011. But I'd prefer it to be in the final of the US Open. But I'm still happy with what we got in 2010 and 2011; more Nadal-Djokovic.

I agree, Nadal-Djokovic is the true great rivalry.

6-1 6-3 6-0 · Jul 31, 2012

nadal2012uso2013ao said:
I agree, Nadal-Djokovic is the true great rivalry.

It'll get even greater come the 2012 US Open and 2013 Australian Open. If

Rafa

can grab those two slams, and pile on another Roland Garros, we could be set for another tense Nadal-Djokovic battle at Wimbledon 2013, much like we saw at Roland Garros 2012, which had one of the most tense 4th sets I'd ever seen.

Tennis_Hands · Jul 31, 2012

nadal2012uso2013ao said:
How does 2-8 look? That's Federer's record at the slams vs Nadal. The "GOAT" is Nadal's b1tch, on the grandest stage. I have no doubt it will be 3-0 at the Australian Open if they meet again. I hope we get to see a US Open meeting too, because that would give Nadal the Career Grand Slam vs Federer.

Hahaha.

*******s getting desperate.

What is next? You will hope that Federer is 40 and he meets some 25 year old player, to spank him at the WTF, to say, that he is beatable on relative fast surfaces too?

Your boy had to wait for Federer to be old enough and simultaneously the surfaces made slow enough for him to beat Federer outside RG. Deal with it.

nadal2012uso2013ao · Jul 31, 2012

6-1 6-3 6-0 said:
It'll get even greater come the 2012 US Open and 2013 Australian Open. If Rafa can grab those two slams, and pile on another Roland Garros, we could be set for another tense Nadal-Djokovic battle at Wimbledon 2013, much like we saw at Roland Garros 2012, which had one of the most tense 4th sets I'd ever seen.

Without doubt the most crucial set of 2012 (more crucial than the 2012 AO 5th set).

nadal2012uso2013ao · Jul 31, 2012

Tennis_Hands said:
Hahaha.

*******s getting desperate.

What is next? You will hope that Federer is 40 and he meets some 25 year old player, to spank him at the WTF, to say, that he is beatable on relative fast surfaces too?

Your boy had to wait for Federer to be old enough and simultaneously the surfaces made slow enough for him to beat Federer outside RG. Deal with it.

Federer is old? Isn't Nadal on the verge of retirement?

6-1 6-3 6-0 · Jul 31, 2012

nadal2012uso2013ao said:
Without doubt the most crucial set of 2012 (more crucial than the 2012 AO 5th set).

Agreed. Even on match point, you did not feel that it was over. Despite it being a 4-set victory, it was not far away from Wimbledon 2008 (which Nadal should have won in 4 sets).

nadal2012uso2013ao · Jul 31, 2012

6-1 6-3 6-0 said:
Agreed. Even on match point, you did not feel that it was over. Despite it being a 4-set victory, it was not far away from Wimbledon 2008 (which Nadal should have won in 4 sets).

True, I hope Nadal gets another shot at Federer at Wimbledon. 2008 was a win, but overall a frustrating match.

6-1 6-3 6-0 · Jul 31, 2012

nadal2012uso2013ao said:
True, I hope Nadal gets another shot at Federer at Wimbledon. 2008 was a win, but overall a frustrating match.

I think what's more frustrating is that they didn't meet again in 2009 due to

Rafa's

withdrawal. It was the best chance to even up the grass H2H to 2-2.

Tennis_Hands · Jul 31, 2012

nadal2012uso2013ao said:
Federer is old? Isn't Nadal on the verge of retirement?

Could you give me a link with his presser on that matter, please?

:twisted:

6-1 6-3 6-0 · Jul 31, 2012

Tennis_Hands said:
Could you give me a link with his presser on that matter, please?

:twisted:

I think he was talking about the views of some posters on this forum (that Nadal should retire).

Feather · Jul 31, 2012

I am a big Roger Federer fan and I am more than happy with him being one of the greatest players of all time.

I think the title GOAT is a disservice to many players that played under different conditions facing different opponents. I think it's pointless to argue about hypothetical matches and claim one is the GOAT

Feather · Jul 31, 2012

nadal2012uso2013ao said:
True, I hope Nadal gets another shot at Federer at Wimbledon. 2008 was a win, but overall a frustrating match.

The new account here..

So in case Rafa doesn't win US 2012, I think it would be "rafawon2013" :wink:

The-Champ · Jul 31, 2012

6-1 6-3 6-0 said:
Federer fans still have something to cheer about. He could go for other personal records, such as reversing the 0-2 HC slam H2H he has with Rafa . (Though this is not likely.)

Do you think Rafa will eventually break Pete's record of winning at least a major in his teens, twenties and thirties? :shock: Do you think Rafa will beat Pete's record of winning at least a major for 8 consecutive years? :shock:

Talker · Jul 31, 2012

TMF said:
This is true in the Laver Forum.

Not only some of the members in their hide the negative facts, but exaggerate about the players achievements(eg Laver's gargantuan 200 titles).

I can't take those guys seriously, most of the arguments are a joke.

But at least the past greats have come foreward as I mentioned in an earlier post agreeing with the Fed followers, who can argue with them?

6-1 6-3 6-0 · Jul 31, 2012

The-Champ said:
Do you think Rafa will eventually break Pete's record of winning at least a major in his teens, twenties and thirties? :shock: Do you think Rafa will beat Pete's record of winning at least a major for 8 consecutive years? :shock:

I'm extremely confident of both of these things. Even if

Rafa

declines at the other slams, there is still no one to challenge him at Roland Garros. His 52-1 record there makes him the obvious favourite for 2013 and he can continue racking them up into his thirties. And, as you mentioned, he can break the Borg/Sampras/Nadal/Federer tie, and claim one of the most important longevity records.

Geology_Rocks! · Jul 31, 2012

Wow, this is taking trolling to a new level.

nadal2012uso2013ao · Jul 31, 2012

Feather said:
The new account here..

So in case Rafa doesn't win US 2012, I think it would be "rafawon2013" :wink:

I don't understand what you just said.

Povl Carstensen · Jul 31, 2012

Geology_Rocks! said:
Wow, this is taking trolling to a new level.

True. If Nadal was a contender for goat, the h2h could come into play, as it is, it doesn't. Live with it.

nadal2012uso2013ao · Jul 31, 2012

The only essential criteria for GOAT is the Calendar Year Grand Slam. You need at least one of them.

Deleted member 3771 · Jul 31, 2012

If Fed had a 6-2 record vs Nadal in slam finals he might be considered the best of this era instead of Nadal.

TMF · Jul 31, 2012

Talker said:
I can't take those guys seriously, most of the arguments are a joke.

But at least the past greats have come foreward as I mentioned in an earlier post agreeing with the Fed followers, who can argue with them?

None.

Not only the past great players have Fed #1, but many journalists like Steve Flink placed Fed at the top.

Mustard · Jul 31, 2012

Talker said:
I can't take those guys seriously, most of the arguments are a joke.

Care to explain why? Where are Federer's 200 titles like Laver or 8 years as the world's best player like Gonzales? You see, it would be false to say that Federer doesn't have challengers to the title of the Greatest of All Time. If you're going to talk about all time, then showing respect for past eras is paramount.

TMF said:
None.

Not only the past great players have Fed #1, but many journalists like Steve Flink placed Fed at the top.

I prefer to do the thinking for myself. A golden rule is never truly believe what you are told, only what you know.

Tennis_Hands · Jul 31, 2012

Mustard said:
I prefer to do the thinking for myself. A golden rule is never truly believe what you are told, only what you know.

:roll:

10agendaloadedthinkings

Povl Carstensen · Jul 31, 2012

nadal2012uso2013ao said:
The only essential criteria for GOAT is the Calendar Year Grand Slam. You need at least one of them.

TheNatural said:
If Fed had a 6-2 record vs Nadal in slam finals he might be considered the best of this era instead of Nadal.

Funny stuff.

Gangsta · Jul 31, 2012

I already consider Federer the GOAT. But if he did have a winning H2H against Nadal, it would just make it that much clearer in my head. But, at the moment, that is not how it is. And if Nadal gets close to Federer's slam count, I would probably incline towards Nadal.

ZeroSkid · Jul 31, 2012

he needs to have a winning h2h against his rival rafa, that is it, especially when you consider nadal is in the GOAT debate as well

nadal2012uso2013ao · Jul 31, 2012

Laver has won the Calendar Year Grand Slam twice. If you want to contend with his all-time greatness, you need at least one Calendar Year Grand Slam. The reason I say this is because the Calendar Year Grand Slam is the most difficult feat in tennis, obviously.

Povl Carstensen · Jul 31, 2012

ZeroSkid said:
he needs to have a winning h2h against his rival rafa, that is it, especially when you consider nadal is in the GOAT debate as well

He is not really in the goat debate. Have you compared their respective records?

Povl Carstensen · Jul 31, 2012

nadal2012uso2013ao said:
Laver has won the Calendar Year Grand Slam twice. If you want to contend with his all-time greatness, you need at least one Calendar Year Grand Slam. The reason I say this is because the Calendar Year Grand Slam is the most difficult feat in tennis, obviously.

Federer has several records that are equally hard to obtain (if not, Nadal would probably have done it).

ZeroSkid · Jul 31, 2012

Povl Carstensen said:
He is not really in the goat debate. Have you compared their respective records?

tell that to Rod laver, Pete Sampras and Borg who all agree Rafa is in the debate, you just have to look at how young rafa still is, he would have 14 by now if not for nole.

Rippy · Jul 31, 2012

ZeroSkid said:
tell that to Rod laver, Pete Sampras and Borg who all agree Rafa is in the debate, you just have to look at how young rafa still is, he would have 14 by now if not for nole.

Nadal needs to have a positive H2H against Rosol to be included in the GOAT debate.

TennisBatman · Jul 31, 2012

In short, yes...

As a true Federer fan, I really had high hopes for him to show his mastery (over Nadal) in the time spanning mid 2008 to early 2009, which covered Wimbledon 2008, Olympics 2008, US Open 2008, and Australian Open 2009.

In hindsight, it was probably bad for Federer overall that he had a final against Andy Murray in 2008 US Open, as it denied him the chance to play Nadal there and redeem himself.

But fortunes swing both ways, and Federer got one benefit in US Open 2008 (the title) at the expense of perhaps one missed opportunity (the chance to play Nadal there).

His last stand in the rivalry with Nadal was in Australian Open 2009, and I believe at that point, the rivalry creaked against his favor (as the post-match ceremony revealed).

I was really pulling for Federer to show himself in that match...

cknobman · Jul 31, 2012

ZeroSkid said:
tell that to Rod laver, Pete Sampras and Borg who all agree Rafa is in the debate, you just have to look at how young rafa still is, he would have 14 by now if not for nole.

Weren't all 3 of those guys part of TTC 100 Greatest players special where Rafa was not in the top 3 of all time and Roger was voted #1?

I think they have spoken.

Of course like you said Rafa is young and time can change things but as of now Rafa is not in the debate for GOAT.

ZeroSkid · Jul 31, 2012

Rippy said:
Nadal needs to have a positive H2H against Rosol to be included in the GOAT debate.

except rosol in not a contender for GOAT or rafa`s main rival unlike rafa is to Fed

Povl Carstensen · Jul 31, 2012

ZeroSkid said:
tell that to Rod laver, Pete Sampras and Borg who all agree Rafa is in the debate, you just have to look at how young rafa still is, he would have 14 by now if not for nole.

Yes potentially he could become a goat contender, but for now he is not.

ZeroSkid · Jul 31, 2012

cknobman said:
Weren't all 3 of those guys part of TTC 100 Greatest players special where Rafa was not in the top 3 of all time and Roger was voted #1?

I think they have spoken.

Of course like you said Rafa is young and time can change things but as of now Rafa is not in the debate for GOAT.

Rafa is ahead of borg in that list and he is considered to be the greatest by many

If Federer had a winning H2H against everyone, would you consider him the GOAT?

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