Pushing serves.legit strategy?

dlam

Semi-Pro
I was playing the other day and serving normally, the pace of my serve usually hits close to the line and bounce and reach the back fence.
By the third set I was getting tired and double faulting.
So I took off a LOT of pace , by justing serving with arm motion and not letting my feet leave the ground or have any forward momentum.
Essentially I was pushing my serves and letting gravity fall the ball in the middle of the service court and barely bouncing it to the back line, no where close to my normal pace.
This seem to work really well.
My opponent usually feeds of the pace of my serve ,
This time he trouble and hit some returns into the net.
Now I thinking this might be a way to conserve energy and throw some unexpected change ups serves.
So I serve mostly weak slices, reverse slices, I even thought about underhanded serving
To mix it up, I served a few fast pace serves.
He couldnt hit a winner of the returns plus made a lot of unforced error into the net.

I never seen anyone do this.
Legit strategy?
 

Govnor

Professional
that is pretty extreme, but in long matches (at the typical recreational level), it's pretty standard to have serves slow up as it goes on.

what level are we talking about here?
 

NLBwell

Legend
Of course it is legit. In mixed doubles, men will often make more errors off the lower-level women's serves than the higher-level men's serves. They just aren't used to them. Some guys don't like to generate their own pace and struggle more off of slow balls.
Of course, if you used it all the time, your opponents would catch on and start beating you, but mixing in variety (as you did with putting in a few fast serves) is almost always a smart play. Find out what your specific opponent does or does not like.
You have learned an important lesson.
 

Mike Y

Rookie
I was playing the other day and serving normally, the pace of my serve usually hits close to the line and bounce and reach the back fence.
By the third set I was getting tired and double faulting.
So I took off a LOT of pace , by justing serving with arm motion and not letting my feet leave the ground or have any forward momentum.
Essentially I was pushing my serves and letting gravity fall the ball in the middle of the service court and barely bouncing it to the back line, no where close to my normal pace.
This seem to work really well.
My opponent usually feeds of the pace of my serve ,
This time he trouble and hit some returns into the net.
Now I thinking this might be a way to conserve energy and throw some unexpected change ups serves.
So I serve mostly weak slices, reverse slices, I even thought about underhanded serving
To mix it up, I served a few fast pace serves.
He couldnt hit a winner of the returns plus made a lot of unforced error into the net.

I never seen anyone do this.
Legit strategy?

Of course it is legit. First serve percentage is very important, and if you are hitting 110 mph serves, but it is going in 20-30 percent of the time, then it is useless. My first serve is usually flat, and fairly hard, but if I am missing it, I will take a little off just to make sure I get it in. I also will not go with the flat serve 100% of the time, even if it is going in. I'll throw in some kick serves and slice serve occasionally, all across the box just to keep them guessing. Sometimes, I will find that an opponent will be able to return my hard flat serve fairly easily, but when I hit spinny serves, they handle those much worse, and I will end up hitting 90% spinny serves for the rest of the match. Whatever works, wins!
 

Tennishacker

Professional
Is it legit, yes, but IMO not within the, "spirit of sportsmanship".

Sounds like your ability to control your serve places you in the 4-4.5 range, your opponent seems to be a lower rated player.

Your strategy will work against lower rated players, but will not work with 4.0 and higher rated players.

When I play matches (match pressure), I always try to play my best, always looking for ways to improve my game.
 

Turbo-87

G.O.A.T.
I think it is fine to play that way since you are just doing what you can to win points. I don't think I would go as extreme as you did, but that's me. I know my serve slows down as the match progresses, but I do not consciously slow it down ... fatigue does it for me. If I think too much about my serve, that's exactly when it fails me. The mind can do funny things. "Hey I haven't double faulted in this match yet. Ooops."
 

blakesq

Hall of Fame
Sounds like Tennishacker is saying if you vary your serve during a match, it is not sporting. I totally disagree. Hitting shots that your oponent cannot return, or force weak shots from your opponent is a GREAT TENNIS SHOT.

I suppose tennishacker thinks that a Major League Pitcher should only pitch one type of ball, because if he changes from a fastball to a curve ball, that would be unsportsmanlike, right?


Is it legit, yes, but IMO not within the, "spirit of sportsmanship".

Sounds like your ability to control your serve places you in the 4-4.5 range, your opponent seems to be a lower rated player.

Your strategy will work against lower rated players, but will not work with 4.0 and higher rated players.

When I play matches (match pressure), I always try to play my best, always looking for ways to improve my game.
 

blakesq

Hall of Fame
My problem is, if i change my stroke (slow my racket speed, don't jump during the serve) because of tiredness, I will make many more faults. What I try to do with serves is change the location, i.e. sometimes i go down the T, out wide, into the body. Other times, I might throw in a spinny second serve for a first serve.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
If it works at your level, 3-4.0, keep using it.
Once you get into strong 4.0's, they can attack your short serves by using an approach shot into your backhand corner, or dropshot when you cover that.
 

sundaypunch

Hall of Fame
Is it legit, yes, but IMO not within the, "spirit of sportsmanship".

Sounds like your ability to control your serve places you in the 4-4.5 range, your opponent seems to be a lower rated player.

Your strategy will work against lower rated players, but will not work with 4.0 and higher rated players.

When I play matches (match pressure), I always try to play my best, always looking for ways to improve my game.

For many people, "trying to play their best" means playing beyond their limits and losing. It feels great to hit hard with the idea that it will help improve your game. The reality is that this is why many people lose.

There is no shame in hitting a 50% serve that is more effective than your normal serve.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Isn't there always the question of, should we try to play our BEST tennis, or should we play what is winning?
Winning, we might push and play conservative, winning more, but never getting any better at tennis.
Best tennis, we will lose lots of matches, for sure, but we also learn to hit harder and heavier shots, learn where and when to hit them, and make the attempt to ADVANCE our level of tennis, not just winning where we already are.
Should I max out my winning percentages at 3.5-4.0?
Or should I hit like a 5.0, miss like a 3.0, and play like a hard hitting 4.0?
 

treblings

Hall of Fame
Isn't there always the question of, should we try to play our BEST tennis, or should we play what is winning? QUOTE]

no there isn´t. your best tennis is the one that gives you the best chance of winning. if that means pushing, so be it
 

blakesq

Hall of Fame
Sounds like playing your "best tennis" means losing to pushers, and complaining about how the pushers didn't play their best tennis, and thats why you lost.

Isn't there always the question of, should we try to play our BEST tennis, or should we play what is winning?
Winning, we might push and play conservative, winning more, but never getting any better at tennis.
Best tennis, we will lose lots of matches, for sure, but we also learn to hit harder and heavier shots, learn where and when to hit them, and make the attempt to ADVANCE our level of tennis, not just winning where we already are.
Should I max out my winning percentages at 3.5-4.0?
Or should I hit like a 5.0, miss like a 3.0, and play like a hard hitting 4.0?
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
You pushers ever wonder how and why can Fed, Nadal, and DJ hit like they do?
I mean, you guys pushing and dinking, them hitting heavy topspin hard shots and all that.
You don't wonder?
So you're happy being a pusher at 4.0 who wins lots of matches, and never hits any good shots.
 
Leave it Lee, some folks can never hit high level shots, so why not make the most of what they have to win?

OP, sure, why not? Until he starts hitting winners off 'em, go for it!
 

blakesq

Hall of Fame
It might have a little something to do with the fact they are 20 years younger than me. duh.

You pushers ever wonder how and why can Fed, Nadal, and DJ hit like they do?
I mean, you guys pushing and dinking, them hitting heavy topspin hard shots and all that.
You don't wonder?
So you're happy being a pusher at 4.0 who wins lots of matches, and never hits any good shots.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
AH, the famous defeatist attitude. I"m too old. I"m too injured. I can't see. I"m out of shape.
OK, all those are true with me too. OTOH, I can still hit my first serves as hard as I can. I can hit forehand winners given a 10' opening. I can hit any overhad for a winner if I"m near the service line. I can hit every single second serve IN, by swinging as fast as I can swing.
See the difference? I lose because I missed. YOU lost because you allowed your opponent to beat you. We both lost. Remember, I"m a 4.0, just like YOU. But I hit 5.0 level shots. You hit 3.5 level shots, but are more consistent than me.
A lion, or a sheep, your choice.
 

LuckyR

Legend
Isn't there always the question of, should we try to play our BEST tennis, or should we play what is winning?
Winning, we might push and play conservative, winning more, but never getting any better at tennis.
Best tennis, we will lose lots of matches, for sure, but we also learn to hit harder and heavier shots, learn where and when to hit them, and make the attempt to ADVANCE our level of tennis, not just winning where we already are.
Should I max out my winning percentages at 3.5-4.0?
Or should I hit like a 5.0, miss like a 3.0, and play like a hard hitting 4.0?

There is a difference between practicing drills and matchplay. The time to get better is in practice, not during a match. When it is match time, the goal is to win the match. If you do it by using what you practiced, great, if you do it another way... still great!

Many miss the point that learning to win by whatever means necessary is it's own skill and one you can't practice with drills, it can only be honed during matchplay, so work on it.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Learning to win, opposed by learning to play like a good player.
You can practice all day like a lion, then go out and push like a lamb....to win.
I'd rather practice like a lion, then play like a lion, hopefully winning a few to fuel the fire, of course.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Are we saying a 40 year old cannot hit shots like the pros? It sure isn't physical, so is it between the ears?
Yeah, you gotta get in some kind of shape. Yeah, you gotta try. What's stopping you?
I"m not saying to PLAY like DJ. I'm saying to hit shots like DJ. For sure, we can't hit every shot like them, but one in 3, for sure. Every other, possibly.
 

Avles

Hall of Fame
Learning to win, opposed by learning to play like a good player.
You can practice all day like a lion, then go out and push like a lamb....to win.
I'd rather practice like a lion, then play like a lion, hopefully winning a few to fuel the fire, of course.

Notice that the OP said that his opponent was feeding off the pace of his fast serves. He didn't turn to his slow-serve tactic out of cowardice or whatever-- he turned to it because his original tactic was proving ineffective.

I think that if my faster serves aren't good enough to trouble a given opponent, I need to practice and improve them, then bring the improved product back to match play. Insisting on hitting a shot that's lower-percentage and yet not particularly threatening doesn't seem like the way to go.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Someone pummelling your fast serves, you spin it into a corner, not dinkball 3.0 it into the court. You spin your second serve into the body, both sides, you kick it over their shoulders, then you go back and hit the corners with your first serve, or body shot the guy.
What you don't do is hit lazy serves into the court, wasting YOUR time and HIS time.
You wanna win, or you wanna get better at tennis? Getting better, you suffer early loses, then get better and pummel those low level guys that you USED to be.
Win, you stoop to the lowest denominator, win some now, and never ever get good at tennis.
 
There is a difference between practicing drills and matchplay. The time to get better is in practice, not during a match. When it is match time, the goal is to win the match. If you do it by using what you practiced, great, if you do it another way... still great!

Many miss the point that learning to win by whatever means necessary is it's own skill and one you can't practice with drills, it can only be honed during matchplay, so work on it.

well I disagree. of course overhitting is bad but I know a some guys that hit big in training but play fearful and pushing in matches. you need to practice good hitting in matches too or you wont be mentally able to pull it off consistently. that does not mean hit as hard as you can all the time but gradually increase your hitting power so that you gain confidence in matches.

if you play like a pro in practice but push in matches you will have a hard time translating this to matches. there are many "practice world champions".

what makes you win in the short run must not the best for winning in the future.

I have that pushing disease a little too. I hit big in training but I'm often a little afraid of errors in matches. I play my best against way superior opponents since then I really swing for the fences because I have nothing to lose.
 
I think the OP is talking about "spinning it in". Nothing wrong with this he said he was getting tired, better then quitting or risking form falling off so far, reaching for a bad toss and injuring a shoulder or an arm--and it works against players who can't produce their own pace lacking technique and feed off their opponent's pace. This works especially well in dubs where a big serve does not allow the server to come in and get set for the volley.

I have trouble reproducing the serve I hit for practice when there's someone on the other side of the net. Some how having a body even, if they're barely breathing over there, makes my biceps and triceps want to get involved, rather then maintaining a live arm motion, with no hitches, fully utilizing the almost infinite elements of the serve.

Just my 2 cents. (Am I the last one on Al Gore's internet to use the term "Just my 2 cents"?
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
I thought OP was pattycaking his serves in.
We are what we practice. You should hit practice serves with someone standing on the other side, racket in hand.
And we can never practice good tennis, then play push, and expect all of a sudden, we can play good tennis. Ain't gonna happen. You need to implement what your practice in your play.
 

chatt_town

Hall of Fame
I wouldn't underhand serve....but my serve most of the time hits top speeds of maybe 30 mph. There have been some days where I've served really well and hit 9 or 10 aces but that is maybe twice a year. Most of the guys I run across in 4.0 or even some 4.5 leagues have tried to murder the serve as opposed to putting me on defense. I have above average speed so they they have to hit a damn good shot to hit a clean winner even with the the serve being in the middle of the box. it also helps that i serve a lot of second serves right down the middle of the court to cut off the angles. So i think if you are smart you'd mixed these serves in from the beginning of the match. You'd be surprised how many free points you get.


I was playing the other day and serving normally, the pace of my serve usually hits close to the line and bounce and reach the back fence.
By the third set I was getting tired and double faulting.
So I took off a LOT of pace , by justing serving with arm motion and not letting my feet leave the ground or have any forward momentum.
Essentially I was pushing my serves and letting gravity fall the ball in the middle of the service court and barely bouncing it to the back line, no where close to my normal pace.
This seem to work really well.
My opponent usually feeds of the pace of my serve ,
This time he trouble and hit some returns into the net.
Now I thinking this might be a way to conserve energy and throw some unexpected change ups serves.
So I serve mostly weak slices, reverse slices, I even thought about underhanded serving
To mix it up, I served a few fast pace serves.
He couldnt hit a winner of the returns plus made a lot of unforced error into the net.

I never seen anyone do this.
Legit strategy?
 

LuckyR

Legend
Learning to win, opposed by learning to play like a good player.
You can practice all day like a lion, then go out and push like a lamb....to win.
I'd rather practice like a lion, then play like a lion, hopefully winning a few to fuel the fire, of course.

You oversimplify the game by proposing that tennis is a 2 dimensional game with "lion" and "lamb" (Low percentage and high percentage) on one axis and "win" and "lose" on the other.

You are going to get much farther in this game in the long haul, by learning to recognise opponents who have a low percentage game who will fall to a player (you) with a high percentage game.

In what universe is matching an opponent with a low percentage game with one of your own a good strategy for winning, be it at 2.5, 3.5 or 4.5?

If you played a guy with no backhand return, where would you go with your first serve on setpoint? To his backhand.

If you play a guy with no wheels and no volley, would you think about dropping him? You'd be an idiot not to.

Similarly if you play a guy who can hit at most 5 shots before shanking one into the net or long, would it be the right move to select shots that you only have a 66% chance of getting in? That is a recipe for disaster in a match you could easily win.

The ability to win matches is not a light switch than any ol' player can switch on and win at will. It also needs to be practiced. Playing "well" but losing matches that are winable is not improving your game, you are fooling yourself.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
And that's exactly why you are a 4.5, and will remain so, until the day you start your decline.
 

Ronaldo

Bionic Poster
Watch the Luxembourg Final with Venus. She armed her serve in and won the title. Seved like a lamb, played like a Lioness. Plan Z, just win baby.
 

Rjtennis

Hall of Fame
I would use slow heavy topspin serves to change things up. Intentionally drastically lowering you racket head speed and changing your serving motion will end up hurting you if the match gets tight. You want to use the same motion just different serves. Serving really slow sitters also won't get you far at higher levels.
 

treblings

Hall of Fame
You oversimplify the game by proposing that tennis is a 2 dimensional game with "lion" and "lamb" (Low percentage and high percentage) on one axis and "win" and "lose" on the other.

You are going to get much farther in this game in the long haul, by learning to recognise opponents who have a low percentage game who will fall to a player (you) with a high percentage game.

In what universe is matching an opponent with a low percentage game with one of your own a good strategy for winning, be it at 2.5, 3.5 or 4.5?

If you played a guy with no backhand return, where would you go with your first serve on setpoint? To his backhand.

If you play a guy with no wheels and no volley, would you think about dropping him? You'd be an idiot not to.

Similarly if you play a guy who can hit at most 5 shots before shanking one into the net or long, would it be the right move to select shots that you only have a 66% chance of getting in? That is a recipe for disaster in a match you could easily win.

The ability to win matches is not a light switch than any ol' player can switch on and win at will. It also needs to be practiced. Playing "well" but losing matches that are winable is not improving your game, you are fooling yourself.

i second that 100%:)

there are good hitters and good matchplayers. some can be both, and that´s the recipe to improve and become your best.
tennis is after all a game, which includes tactics, the ability to read one´s opponents game, to evaluate a situation, and not just a ball-hitting contest
 

Big_Dangerous

Talk Tennis Guru
Is it legit, yes, but IMO not within the, "spirit of sportsmanship".

Sounds like your ability to control your serve places you in the 4-4.5 range, your opponent seems to be a lower rated player.

Your strategy will work against lower rated players, but will not work with 4.0 and higher rated players.

When I play matches (match pressure), I always try to play my best, always looking for ways to improve my game.

Isn't what we're all kind of taught about the serve, is that sometimes you just have to get it over the net and in the box.

I understand and even respect the fact that you want to play your best or play really well. I mean I think we all do and strive for that. However, hardly ever do we really and truly play our "best in match situations. And part of the game is figuring out how you are supposed to win a match or beat a guy when you aren't playing your best.
 

treblings

Hall of Fame
There´s an old tennis wisdom. i think it goes back to Pancho Gonzales but i could be wrong. that says, you don´t have to hit hard serves all of the time, just the threat that you could hit them is enough. and than you vary pace, depth, spin, slice,.... to throw of the returner
 

Magnetite

Professional
Do whatever your opponent is uncomfortable with.

If he can't hit a slow serve (no idea why this would be the case), hit slow serves.

If he can't hit faster serves, serve faster, as long as you don't double fault.

If your opponent has a weaker backhand return, serve to his backhand.

If you don't know, vary the speed, spin, trajectory and placement.
 

treblings

Hall of Fame
Do whatever your opponent is uncomfortable with.

If he can't hit a slow serve (no idea why this would be the case), hit slow serves.

sometimes players go for too much on a slow serve. players with extreme grips can´t get under the ball if it´s not only slow but also short
lots of times it´s the variation though
 

LuckyR

Legend
And that's exactly why you are a 4.5, and will remain so, until the day you start your decline.

No, the reason my game will not improve (which is a central issue on this topic) is that due to work and family pressure, I don't have the time to practice enough to increase my game. Matchplay is for winning, not working on your strokes. The practice court is for grooving your shots.

But ultimately you are correct, my career will not be in tennis.
 

mmk

Hall of Fame
sometimes players go for too much on a slow serve. players with extreme grips can´t get under the ball if it´s not only slow but also short
lots of times it´s the variation though

It is amazing how many guys hit the back wall when returning a slow serve. I guess they get over-anxious.
 

robbo1970

Hall of Fame
I dont think it ever hurts to mix it up a bit. Playing someone with a predictable serve is actually a bad strategy on their part as you are likely to know where the ball will go and how it will bounce.

I have played many hard hitters and they often thrive off a hard hit serve by taking its force and thumping it back.

I would try and add a bit of spin to it though, just to take it away a bit, if you know what I mean. But you dont need to add more power. Its like golf really, if you let your swing do the work and by slowing it down you have more accuracy to hit the corners or lines then go for it.

I think against any opponent you need to be adaptable and able to mix things up if you need to and exploit their weeknesses.
 

mikeler

Moderator
Most players like a little pace to work with. Throwing in a slow spinny serve can trip up quite a few of my opponents. Others can slap it away for a winner. Depends on the day and/or opponent for me.
 

blakesq

Hall of Fame
Its great you take tennis so seriously. But, I don't think you are being completely realistic. John McEnroe is in his 50's. Do you think he is still trying to "improve"? Do you think the current John McEnroe could beat the McEnroe of 1983?

Are we saying a 40 year old cannot hit shots like the pros? It sure isn't physical, so is it between the ears?
Yeah, you gotta get in some kind of shape. Yeah, you gotta try. What's stopping you?
I"m not saying to PLAY like DJ. I'm saying to hit shots like DJ. For sure, we can't hit every shot like them, but one in 3, for sure. Every other, possibly.
 

tennis_ocd

Hall of Fame
John McEnroe is in his 50's. Do you think he is still trying to "improve"?
I'd guess that he is quite focused on being a better player than he was the day before.... But I'll confess that "improvement" is such an overwhelming strong personal motivator that I have trouble grasping the mindset of perhaps a majority of guys that simply enjoy playing were they currently are. I'm amazed that the VAST majority of guys I meet have simply no interest whatsoever in taking a lesson.
 
Its great you take tennis so seriously. But, I don't think you are being completely realistic. John McEnroe is in his 50's. Do you think he is still trying to "improve"? Do you think the current John McEnroe could beat the McEnroe of 1983?

John Mac's current head in his '83 body would definitely win today. He is fit, carrying no fat. He's been playing on the Outback Senior's tour since it started. Beat guys much younger like Philipousis. Played open doubles after retiring from singles. When he's in SoCal practices with the top college players. Much of his game is finesse, great hands, not requiring big power. He's still very competitive but much of the blustering today is for show because that's what the fans pay to see.
 
I'm amazed that the VAST majority of guys I meet have simply no interest whatsoever in taking a lesson.

For the majority it's about hanging out with the chums, getting away from the little woman, having some beers, liar's dice--four old farts trying to one up each other and cutting a deal once in a while.
 

blakesq

Hall of Fame
so the answer is no, Mcenroe of today couldn't beat Mcenroe of the 1980s. and obviously, Mcenroe is not continually improving, in fact he is getting worse.



John Mac's current head in his '83 body would definitely win today. He is fit, carrying no fat. He's been playing on the Outback Senior's tour since it started. Beat guys much younger like Philipousis. Played open doubles after retiring from singles. When he's in SoCal practices with the top college players. Much of his game is finesse, great hands, not requiring big power. He's still very competitive but much of the blustering today is for show because that's what the fans pay to see.
 
It is a legit strategy to change things up... esp. if you are a 4.0+ playing against those below your level. Against equal or better playesr I throw in 65% power with lots of spin just for the way it makes them rethink their return position... then I hit a 130mph 1st serve the next point. It works great.

Honestly, sometimes when I play a pick up doubles game I have trouble returning powderpuff serves at first (usually hitting the net) but I keep at it and by the second service game Im hitting return winners left and right (typical when a 4.5 or so hits with a 3.5). It forces me to stay sharp and forces them to develop a better second serve.
 
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