What can be done to reduce the cheating?

Anyone4tennis? · Jan 22, 2013

SoCal10s said:
maybe this idea may help .record matches and review cheaters and mis-conduct who have a 'reputation'.. . with a small investment from the USTA and a little note to all parents and players participating in some tournaments ... something like this::

"" the USTA is doing and in house experiment trying to curb cheating "" we will be recording certain matches and will b reviewing them"" ""if anyone is found guilty of cheating,you will be suspended from future participation for 6 months ect. ect..::: --- (some of you better writers can elaborate on this)...

I think this would scare the crap out of some cheaters and straighten up a bit..

I think you are right. This is a great idea. However, instead of being experimental, it should be done permanently . . . ASAP. It also might be a good idea to have a few undercover officials floating around as well watching over matches.

Chemist · Jan 25, 2013

andfor said:
In junior tennis your idea 1 will never happen and idea 2 will never happen. Sounds good, but unrealistic.

One boy in our section got suspended for 3 months because of cheating. He was a lot better in the last sectional championship.

My son usually calls out the score before he serves; he often asks his opponent to confirm the score before receiving serves. I don't recall he has ever got cheated on the scores.

I watched 7-8 matches at the past winter nationals for B18, witnessed many playing out balls; saw only one bad call. Cheating was much worse when my son played 12s. So, kids usually are getting better as they get older.

SoCal10s · Jan 25, 2013

Anyone4tennis? said:
I think you are right. This is a great idea. However, instead of being experimental, it should be done permanently . . . ASAP. It also might be a good idea to have a few undercover officials floating around as well watching over matches.

undercover umpires still need tapes to show cheating when they go on trial.. I'm pretty sure the cheaters's parents will protest and raise hell .. electronics is so cheap now, hi-tech is everywhere..

andfor · Jan 25, 2013

SoCal10s said:
undercover umpires still need tapes to show cheating when they go on trial.. I'm pretty sure the cheaters's parents will protest and raise hell .. electronics is so cheap now, hi-tech is everywhere..

Agreed. This whole notion is polyanic. The USTA will never go to this length. The concept is Rediculous and ripe for law suits. All the *****ing about how bad the refs are and now folks are condoning the USTA add extra policing of junior tennis? Could you imaging the uproar when your kid has been secretly busted by Big Brother USTA?

Chemist said:
One boy in our section got suspended for 3 months because of cheating. He was a lot better in the last sectional championship.

My son usually calls out the score before he serves; he often asks his opponent to confirm the score before receiving serves. I don't recall he has ever got cheated on the scores.

I watched 7-8 matches at the past winter nationals for B18, witnessed many playing out balls; saw only one bad call. Cheating was much worse when my son played 12s. So, kids usually are getting better as they get older.

What was the exact nature of the kids suspension? Did you see the suspension letter? I'm not challenging you, this sounds like a typical code violation suspension associated with bad behavior. Would like to hear more details though if it was for cheating.

SoCal10s · Jan 25, 2013

USTA is like the NBA,NFL and all the other sports entity .. it's usually hands off from gov't .. they all police their own .. nothing like having a legal monopoly where you can do anything and get away with it..

andfor · Jan 25, 2013

^^^Yea, just have shot spot. If that's too expensive go with the secret cameras and judgement calls of those extra employees you have to hire reviewing those tapes in the secret USTA film basement. Anyone could be targeted. Just start sanctioning little kids all over the place. Guilty until proven innocent. Then when they protest and appear before the USTA cheater council, gather up all all those voluteers who want to step up and demonize little kids trying to learn the game for making questionable line calls.

This isn't a game, it's life, a business and the USTA plays for keeps.

chalkflewup · Jan 25, 2013

Three different profiles that junior tennis players fit into...
1. Those that cheat all the time.
2. Those that whine about cheating all the time.
3. The rest of the tennis population.

IMHO #3 represents 99% of the pie.

SoCal10s · Jan 25, 2013

^^^ you know it.. tennis is serious business ... that's why crazy parents turn their kids into cheater critters and fight with each other in the stands ... top tennis coaches getting close to $100/hour ... hey man it's not only tennis ,it's life .... haha

TCF · Jan 25, 2013

==========================

Chemist · Jan 25, 2013

andfor said:
What was the exact nature of the kids suspension? Did you see the suspension letter? I'm not challenging you, this sounds like a typical code violation suspension associated with bad behavior. Would like to hear more details though if it was for cheating.

The kid posted the letter of suspension on his Facebook. It said that it was due to the behavior of the kid and his coach, like you predicted. However, aside from making bad calls and getting reversed by umpires, the kid was not the worst on the court. So, probably, he also received point penalty for making repeated bad calls. In a national open semifinal match, the chair umpire overruled two bad calls on a boy in one game and he warned that the another overrule (the 3rd) would result in point penalty. I think a kid gets suspended after receiving 10 penalty points (in our section).

The following is from 2012 Friend at Court regarding making bad calls.

FAC Comment IV.D-15: What should an official do when a player has been overruled more than once during a match? At some point, an official may caution the player (or team) that future overrules will be penalized under the Point Penalty System as unsportsmanlike conduct. There is no hard and fast rule as to how many overrules is “too many.” An official should consider all factors including:
• the age and experience of the player;
• the closeness of the calls;
• the importance of the points on which the overrules have occurred;
• the factors that might have caused the player to miss the call (For example, a sudden gust of wind blew the ball in at the last minute versus apparent outright cheating or a retaliatory call); and
• the frequency with which the overrules occur.
An official should consider cautioning a player if there have been two overrules during the same set. Once an official cautions a player that subsequent overrules will be penalized under the Point Penalty System, the official must penalize subsequent overrules.

coaching32yrs · Jan 25, 2013

I have never whined about cheating, never accused a player, never filed a complaint and I never will do any of the these things. But to say 99% of the juniors do not cheat astonishes me, having watched 1000s of junior matches. Cheating is frequent and widespread, a part of the junior landscape. I have witnessed a parent advising his top 10 player to cheat. I have witnessed 2 top 10 players discuss and agree on a scheme for cheating. This is just the tip of the iceberg of everything I have witnessed. No sour grapes. Let them cheat. I and my players don't care. Maybe its because I'm old, harmless, laid back- kids and parents talk to me.

chalkflewup · Jan 25, 2013

coaching32yrs said:
I have never whined about cheating, never accused a player, never filed a complaint and I never will do any of the these things. But to say 99% of the juniors do not cheat astonishes me, having watched 1000s of junior matches. Cheating is frequent and widespread, a part of the junior landscape. I have witnessed a parent advising his top 10 player to cheat. I have witnessed 2 top 10 players discuss and agree on a scheme for cheating. This is just the tip of the iceberg of everything I have witnessed. No sour grapes. Let them cheat. I and my players don't care. Maybe its because I'm old, harmless, laid back- kids and parents talk to me.

OK coach, then give me a number. We all have cheating stories but each of those are hugely magnified. Anyway, toss out a number. What percentage of the kids cheat?

andfor · Jan 26, 2013

chalkflewup said:
OK coach, then give me a number. We all have cheating stories but each of those are hugely magnified. Anyway, toss out a number. What percentage of the kids cheat?

Can't wait for this answer. Not holding my breath though.

coaching32yrs said:
I have never whined about cheating, never accused a player, never filed a complaint and I never will do any of the these things. But to say 99% of the juniors do not cheat astonishes me, having watched 1000s of junior matches. Cheating is frequent and widespread, a part of the junior landscape. I have witnessed a parent advising his top 10 player to cheat. I have witnessed 2 top 10 players discuss and agree on a scheme for cheating. This is just the tip of the iceberg of everything I have witnessed. No sour grapes. Let them cheat. I and my players don't care. Maybe its because I'm old, harmless, laid back- kids and parents talk to me.

You know what's astonishing? Your freaking inability to do math. You have watched 1000's of matches and can only came up with 3 examples? Maybe in your fantasy world percentages figure differently. Based on the amount of kids who compete under USTA, even at the tip of your fantasy iceberg you have a long way to go to get past more than 1% of kids cheat. I defy you to come up with a number greater than 1% of tennis playing kids are premeditated cheaters.

coaching32yrs · Jan 26, 2013

Not going to argue with you. My comments are based on what I have observed. Lansdorp is a well respected coach who rarely speaks or writes publicly. He wrote an article about cheating in junior tennis being a major problem. Read or watch the speech by the pres of Univ of Virginia on cheating. It is very widespread among the current generation of young people, much more than among past generations. She explains the reasons why.

chalkflewup · Jan 26, 2013

coaching32yrs said:
Not going to argue with you. My comments are based on what I have observed. Lansdorp is a well respected coach who rarely speaks or writes publicly. He wrote an article about cheating in junior tennis being a major problem. Read or watch the speech by the pres of Univ of Virginia on cheating. It is very widespread among the current generation of young people, much more than among past generations. She explains the reasons why.

I'm not asking you to argue. Just give me a number not a few names. The Lansdorp article is dated. I am willing to bet that I have attended many more national junior tournaments than Lansdorp has in recent years. And I don't care what the Pres of the UVA has to say about cheating -- that's not junior tennis. I stand by my number.

coaching32yrs · Jan 26, 2013

chalkflewup said:
I'm not asking you to argue. Just give me a number not a few names. The Lansdorp article is dated. I am willing to bet that I have attended many more national junior tournaments than Lansdorp has in recent years. And I don't care what the Pres of the UVA has to say about cheating -- that's not junior tennis. I stand by my number.

.

You don't care what I say, fair enough. You don't care what Landsdorp said in 2008 because it is "dated". Not fair. You don't care what a University president said about cheating by this generation, backed up by facts and statistics. Not fair. Here are Landsdorp's words for those of you who haven't seen them:
"So let me start by making a few comments about a topic no one ever talks about publicly: the enormous amount of cheating now going on in junior tennis. Maybe the most shocking thing is that it’s so prevalent in the younger divisions, the 14 and unders, and even the 12s.

I’m not talking about an occasional bad call here and there. I’m talking about a culture that almost sees cheating as part of the game, almost as a strategy to use at certain times to win matches. Somehow that is now ok."

I agree with Landsdorp. The culture goes beyond occasional bad line calls.
What Azarenka did against Stephens I would define as cheating. Others may not and believe it was within the rules.

Chemist · Jan 26, 2013

My son has already played almost 1,000 matches and I have watched additional 1,000 matches. He has played about 100 boys in our section.

4 are known cheaters that kids and parents are often talking about. Only 2 parents of these 4 kids are known to support cheating.

Another 10 (half of them are highly ranked) or so are seen to make 1-2 bad calls a match. Cheating back was often the excuse.

Only 4-5 boys have reputation of playing out balls and they win sportsmanship awards.

However, my son lost only three matches because of bad calls. One was last year's clay court super national in FL that stunk the most.

The statistics would vary from section to section. In my observation, the kids from Mid*West are generally the best. Umpires were on the court only during the tiebreaks.

Chemist · Jan 26, 2013

coaching32yrs said:
.

You don't care what I say, fair enough. You don't care what Landsdorp said in 2008 because it is "dated". Not fair. You don't care what a University president said about cheating by this generation, backed up by facts and statistics. Not fair. Here are Landsdorp's words for those of you who haven't seen them:
"So let me start by making a few comments about a topic no one ever talks about publicly: the enormous amount of cheating now going on in junior tennis. Maybe the most shocking thing is that it’s so prevalent in the younger divisions, the 14 and unders, and even the 12s.

I’m not talking about an occasional bad call here and there. I’m talking about a culture that almost sees cheating as part of the game, almost as a strategy to use at certain times to win matches. Somehow that is now ok."

I agree with Landsdorp. The culture goes beyond occasional bad line calls.
What Azarenka did against Stephens I would define as cheating. Others may not and believe it was within the rules.

Luckily, kids generally become better as they get older.

andfor · Jan 26, 2013

Chemist said:
My son has already played almost 1,000 matches and I have watched additional 1,000 matches. He has played about 100 boys in our section.

4 are known cheaters that kids and parents are often talking about. Only 2 parents of these 4 kids are known to support cheating.

Another 10 (half of them are highly ranked) or so are seen to make 1-2 bad calls a match. Cheating back was often the excuse.

Only 4-5 boys have reputation of playing out balls and they win sportsmanship awards.

However, my son lost only three matches because of bad calls. One was last year's clay court super national in FL that stunk the most.

The statistics would vary from section to section. In my observation, the kids from Mid*West are generally the best. Umpires were on the court only during the tiebreaks.

I was going to type a long post. Respectfully, this is wasted time and energy and totally counterproductive trying to figure out who's a cheater and who's not.

One bad call give them a second look and ask them if they are sure. Second bad call, tell them next bad one you are getting a line jude. Third bad call get a line judge. This is time tested and works. Players need to read and know the rules. They should also be coached that if anything out of the ordinary breaks up the flow of the match, get a line judge. Plain and simple.

Just play tennis. Leave the excuses behind. You'll be better tennis player in the long-run.

chalkflewup · Jan 26, 2013

Now it all makes sense. UVA has been recruiting cheaters, hence all the recent success!

andfor · Jan 26, 2013

chalkflewup said:
Now it all makes sense. UVA has been recruiting cheaters, hence all the recent success!

Along with Lansdorp and the UVA president I believe other factors such as teenage pregnancy, drug use, smoking, rap music, toilet paper rolling neighboors homes, use of false Internet aliases and poor driving habits correlate directly to cheating in tennis.

tennis5 · Jan 26, 2013

coaching32yrs said:
.

You don't care what I say, fair enough. You don't care what Landsdorp said in 2008 because it is "dated". Not fair. You don't care what a University president said about cheating by this generation, backed up by facts and statistics. Not fair. Here are Landsdorp's words for those of you who haven't seen them:
"So let me start by making a few comments about a topic no one ever talks about publicly: the enormous amount of cheating now going on in junior tennis. Maybe the most shocking thing is that it’s so prevalent in the younger divisions, the 14 and unders, and even the 12s.

I’m not talking about an occasional bad call here and there. I’m talking about a culture that almost sees cheating as part of the game, almost as a strategy to use at certain times to win matches. Somehow that is now ok."

I agree with Landsdorp. The culture goes beyond occasional bad line calls.
What Azarenka did against Stephens I would define as cheating. Others may not and believe it was within the rules.

The culture of cheating in this country today is abhorrent.
But, don't waste your time arguing with folks on this board.....
Most of them homeschool their kids and are not in a school setting.

When, I google culture, cheating, schools - it is across the country.

NY Times -
http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/...y-have-to-cheat-and-how-to-teach-them-not-to/

Not all of them — but pretty close. Varying surveys of both private and public high school students showed from 80 to 90 percent admitting to some form of cheating during the school year, from copying another student’s work to cheating on a test. Cheating has been the subject of many a worried headline, while cheating scandals have hit high schools from Stuyvesant in New York to Clear Lake in Houston.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/14/harvard-cheating-scandal-not-just-sports_n_1885597.html
Harvard Cheating Scandal Not Just A Sports Problem: President Drew Faust

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...d411ba8-f3de-11e1-adc6-87dfa8eff430_blog.html

The scandal at Harvard University in which authorities are investigating whether nearly half of a class of 279 students cheated on a take-home final exam raises a number of questions, including this: Does everybody cheat?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/16/atlanta-schools-created-c_n_900635.html
ATLANTA -- Teachers spent nights huddled in a back room, erasing wrong answers on students' test sheets and filling in the correct bubbles. At another school, struggling students were seated next to higher-performing classmates so they could copy answers.

Those and other confessions are contained in a new state report that reveals how far some Atlanta public schools went to raise test scores in the nation's largest-ever cheating scandal. Investigators concluded that nearly half the city's schools allowed the cheating to go unchecked for as long as a decade, beginning in 2001.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/17/opinion/la-oe-dorff-cheating-20120717
Education's cheating epidemic
Many kids today see dishonesty as a crucial part of any path to success.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...ating-breeding-in-schools-across-us/?page=all
Culture of cheating breeding in schools across U.S.

This is ten seconds of a google search..........

Then again, with readers here questioning Robert Landsdorp -
I am sure they would have a problem with the NY Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, etc......
Guess that is dated too....

tennis5 · Jan 26, 2013

andfor said:
Along with Lansdorp and the UVA president I believe other factors such as teenage pregnancy, drug use, smoking, rap music, toilet paper rolling neighboors homes, use of false Internet aliases and poor driving habits correlate directly to cheating in tennis.

Yeah, the rap music definitely correlates to the kids cursing out the ref or the TD.

tennis5 · Jan 26, 2013

andfor said:
I was going to type a long post. Respectfully, this is wasted time and energy and totally counterproductive trying to figure out who's a cheater and who's not.

One bad call give them a second look and ask them if they are sure. Second bad call, tell them next bad one you are getting a line jude. Third bad call get a line judge. This is time tested and works. Players need to read and know the rules. They should also be coached that if anything out of the ordinary breaks up the flow of the match, get a line judge. Plain and simple.

Just play tennis. Leave the excuses behind. You'll be better tennis player in the long-run.

Oh my...... Andfor, I am speechless.

And I will be respectful too

"get a line judge" .......

The problem with the internet is I don't know if you are joking or being ironic or serious.

That is the whole problem.

Many tournaments have one ref for 9 - 10 courts.

So, sure by the 3rd or 4th bad call, you get a ref, and the ref stays for two points, overules one of them, and then goes on to the next court.

Or the ref is eating lunch.

SoCal10s · Jan 27, 2013

http://www.tennisnews.com/exclusive.php?pID=26799

from Robert Lansdorp ...

andfor · Jan 27, 2013

tennis5 said:
Yeah, the rap music definitely correlates to the kids cursing out the ref or the TD.

Typical response although I'm suprised you don't just blame the parents.

BTW. Is cussing out the ref. cheating too?

chalkflewup · Jan 27, 2013

If a parent or kid tells me they lost because they got cheated, I change the subject with something positive like, "So who do you play next?" I just can't deal with whine & cheese. My kid knows better than to dump that stuff on me. In my opinion, Lansdorp should be teaching his players how to deal with questionable calls and share his ideas with the masses instead of jumping on the hook train. If the faucet is leaking, you don't buy a new house, you fix the leak. We're dealing with a leak here and not a structural problem.

andfor · Jan 27, 2013

chalkflewup said:
If a parent or kid tells me they lost because they got cheated, I change the subject with something positive like, "So who do you play next?" I just can't deal with whine & cheese. My kid knows better than to dump that stuff on me. In my opinion, Lansdorp should be teaching his players how to deal with questionable calls and share his ideas with the masses instead of jumping on the hook train. If the faucet is leaking, you don't buy a new house, you fix the leak. We're dealing with a leak here and not a structural problem.

Can't say it any better. Thanks Chalk!

coaching32yrs · Jan 27, 2013

Tennis 5 said " The culture of cheating in this country today is abhorrent." So true. Tennis is not the problem, it is only a game.

SoCal10s · Jan 27, 2013

chalkflewup said:
If a parent or kid tells me they lost because they got cheated, I change the subject with something positive like, "So who do you play next?" I just can't deal with whine & cheese. My kid knows better than to dump that stuff on me. In my opinion, Lansdorp should be teaching his players how to deal with questionable calls and share his ideas with the masses instead of jumping on the hook train. If the faucet is leaking, you don't buy a new house, you fix the leak. We're dealing with a leak here and not a structural problem.

great advise to all... thanks...

Misterbill · Jan 27, 2013

tennis5 said:
Then again, with readers here questioning Robert Landsdorp -
I am sure they would have a problem with the NY Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, etc......
Guess that is dated too....

Often I disagree with the NY Times and Washington Post about their reporting and editorial positions. That means my opinion about cheating in junior tennis (whatever it is, I haven't revealed it here yet) is suspect?

Sounds like the epitome of mid-twentieth century establishment, private school haughtiness

Chemist · Jan 27, 2013

Back in September, my son lost a match 2-6/3-6 in a final and he blamed the loss to his opponent's 2 bad calls. I showed him the stats that his opponent hit 10 more winners and 20 less unforced errors than him. I told him you lost the match because your opponent played much better than you. Taking out 2 bad calls, your opponent would still hit 6 more winners and 16 less unforced errors and you probably would win one more game. BTW, he learned from that loss and beat the same kid 6-4/7-6 in November and 6-3/6-4 a week ago.

When my son plays a known cheater, I ask him before the match that he should call umpire after 2nd bad call. I also advise him try to aim a foot or so from the line and don't give his opponent many opportunities to make "close calls".

tball2day · Jan 28, 2013

andfor said:
Typical response although I'm suprised you don't just blame the parents.

BTW. Is cussing out the ref. cheating too?

Not cheating, but apparently cursing in English or Spanish will cost you the match...this Perez kid defaulted in FLA after letting a few colorful words fly.

From Zoo Tennis (I condensed link to full below):
At Salvadore Park, where the quarterfinals and semifinals were played today in the boys 18s and boys 14s division, top seed Christian Langmo got the most unusual win of his tennis career in the semifinals, when his opponent, unseeded Alfredo Perez, was defaulted from the match at 3-3 deuce in the third set.

Perez was defaulted for his third audible obscenity in the match, the first two coming in the last game of the first set when he was serving trailing 3-5.....At 3-5, 0-30, after a Langmo winner, Perez yelled out "he's playing out of his f***ing mind" and a roving umpire gave him a point penalty..........

The third set continued with both boys playing well and holding serve until, at 3-3, Perez let a 40-15 lead get away. When he failed to win a third game point, he shouted that he was playing like the Spanish word for excrement. The assistant referee checked with her Spanish-speaking colleague to make sure she had heard it correctly, and called both boys to the net, where she awarded the match to Langmo. Langmo shook Perez's hand, then Perez tossed his racquet in the direction of his bag and after a few seconds sat down and loudly said the same word again. Because he was defaulted for misconduct, the 15-year-old from Coral Gables was not allowed to play his doubles match later in the day.

Whole story is here:
http://tenniskalamazoo.blogspot.com/

andfor · Jan 28, 2013

tball2day said:
Not cheating, but apparently cursing in English or Spanish will cost you the match...this Perez kid defaulted in FLA after letting a few colorful words fly.

From Zoo Tennis (I condensed link to full below):
At Salvadore Park, where the quarterfinals and semifinals were played today in the boys 18s and boys 14s division, top seed Christian Langmo got the most unusual win of his tennis career in the semifinals, when his opponent, unseeded Alfredo Perez, was defaulted from the match at 3-3 deuce in the third set.

Perez was defaulted for his third audible obscenity in the match, the first two coming in the last game of the first set when he was serving trailing 3-5.....At 3-5, 0-30, after a Langmo winner, Perez yelled out "he's playing out of his f***ing mind" and a roving umpire gave him a point penalty..........

The third set continued with both boys playing well and holding serve until, at 3-3, Perez let a 40-15 lead get away. When he failed to win a third game point, he shouted that he was playing like the Spanish word for excrement. The assistant referee checked with her Spanish-speaking colleague to make sure she had heard it correctly, and called both boys to the net, where she awarded the match to Langmo. Langmo shook Perez's hand, then Perez tossed his racquet in the direction of his bag and after a few seconds sat down and loudly said the same word again. Because he was defaulted for misconduct, the 15-year-old from Coral Gables was not allowed to play his doubles match later in the day.

Whole story is here:
http://tenniskalamazoo.blogspot.com/

Cheating and breaking The Code are two distinctly different things. I think you know that, but for some reason the two regarding suspension and how to handle cheating are being blurred together by a few here.

Regarding your example, did Perez chalk his cussing up to listening to rap music? Doubt it. Did kids ever get defaulted for cussing pre-rap music, of course.

tball2day · Jan 28, 2013

I saw the mention of cursing earlier so stuck it here. I thought the story was hilarious, especially the conferring with spanish speaking colleague. It gave me a morning chuckle. I can totally see this playing out in my mind...but I am not offended by cursing at all, just don't care about it on or off the court.

ga tennis · Jan 28, 2013

Cheating happens on every level. God only knows how many pro men are doping(ATP is full of Armstrongs) College coaches break the rules. College players make terrible calls(I watched Georgia play Ohio State last year and the calls were ridiculous) Cheating is gonna happen!!! One thing i tell my daughter is you never lose a match because the other girl cheated and NEVER use that excuse just bring your targets in.

TCF · Jan 28, 2013

ga tennis said:
Cheating happens on every level. God only knows how many pro men are doping(ATP is full of Armstrongs) College coaches break the rules. College players make terrible calls(I watched Georgia play Ohio State last year and the calls were ridiculous) Cheating is gonna happen!!! One thing i tell my daughter is you never lose a match because the other girl cheated and NEVER use that excuse just bring your targets in.

Same here GA. We played a tournament last weekend. My girl lost in the finals to a 12 year old who was hooking many close calls. She was also as good a pusher as you will ever see. Never seen a kid who can block ball after ball back, match after match, and never take a full swing at the ball!

Afterwards, no excuses.....we just go back to work learning how to deal with kids who cheat on the line calls and deal with pushers. In the end the experience will be helpful.

coaching32yrs · Jan 28, 2013

Ga: I saw the same thing in an Ivy match in the fall. Couldn't believe it. One coach went bonkers, screaming at other coach during match. Match was officiated, but player hooked on sideline opposite referee, so couldn't overrule. Ivy League smart.

barringer97 · Jan 28, 2013

When in doubt, call it out.

Chemist · Jan 28, 2013

ga tennis said:
Cheating happens on every level. God only knows how many pro men are doping(ATP is full of Armstrongs) College coaches break the rules. College players make terrible calls(I watched Georgia play Ohio State last year and the calls were ridiculous) Cheating is gonna happen!!! One thing i tell my daughter is you never lose a match because the other girl cheated and NEVER use that excuse just bring your targets in.

TCF said:
Same here GA. We played a tournament last weekend. My girl lost in the finals to a 12 year old who was hooking many close calls. She was also as good a pusher as you will ever see. Never seen a kid who can block ball after ball back, match after match, and never take a full swing at the ball!

Afterwards, no excuses.....we just go back to work learning how to deal with kids who cheat on the line calls and deal with pushers. In the end the experience will be helpful.

GA and TCF - This is exactly what parents or coaches should tell our kids! Cheaters wanted to use bad calls as an easy way to disrupt your rhythm, make you lose focus and get upset, and forget how to think and how to play your best.... Screaming, cursing, name calling, faking injury, taking long bathroom break, delaying game etc are the same tactics that cheaters use to get into your mind. So learning how to deal with cheaters is perhaps the most important aspect of improving mental toughness.

Chemist · Jan 28, 2013

coaching32yrs said:
Ga: I saw the same thing in an Ivy match in the fall. Couldn't believe it. One coach went bonkers, screaming at other coach during match. Match was officiated, but player hooked on sideline opposite referee, so couldn't overrule. Ivy League smart.

Would you please provide more details? Which Ivy team was bad in calls? My son wants to play for an Ivy team. We will try to stay away from coaches who supported cheating.

Also I am not sure if umpires are required to have annual version exam. I watched a match at a non-sanctioned $50,000 pro event. The umpire, in his 70s, did not overrule or confirm any of the calls that were questioned. At least half of these calls were clearly bad. Luckily most umpires I have seen are pretty good and fair.

justinmadison · Jan 28, 2013

ga tennis said:
Cheating happens on every level. God only knows how many pro men are doping(ATP is full of Armstrongs) College coaches break the rules. College players make terrible calls(I watched Georgia play Ohio State last year and the calls were ridiculous) Cheating is gonna happen!!! One thing i tell my daughter is you never lose a match because the other girl cheated and NEVER use that excuse just bring your targets in.

I am trying to follow your logic. College players make terrible calls, Cheating is gonna happen, etc.. Followed by “you never lose a match because the other girl cheated”. So from this train of thought … there are many people who cheat but it never makes a difference in who actually wins the match. So all cheating is ineffectual. The cheaters think it is helping them to win but never does. Is that your position?

ga tennis · Jan 28, 2013

justinmadison said:
I am trying to follow your logic. College players make terrible calls, Cheating is gonna happen, etc.. Followed by “you never lose a match because the other girl cheated”. So from this train of thought … there are many people who cheat but it never makes a difference in who actually wins the match. So all cheating is ineffectual. The cheaters think it is helping them to win but never does. Is that your position?

My position is people cheat on all levels. So what its part of life. Its not gonna change so deal with it and dont use it as an excuse if you lose. Do you understand my train of thought?

TCF · Jan 28, 2013

ga tennis said:
My position is people cheat on all levels. So what its part of life. Its not gonna change so deal with it and dont use it as an excuse if you lose. Do you understand my train of thought?

Like I said before, the number of parents and kids using it as an excuse vastly outweighs the actual cheating.

In our tournament, 3 girls lost to the 'cheater'. In my kid's match, she lost 3 points. In the other 2 girl's matches they lost what they said were 2-3 points.

Both the other girls and their parents went on and on about how the REASON they lost was cheating. My girl and I just politely listened.

On the way home we both talked about the real reasons she lost.....forgot to move in on the 2nd serve about half the time.....played a tall pusher with long arms and grew impatient and went for ridiculous winners too much....allowed the cheated points to bother her. She is now empowered to do better the next time.

I think the blatant cheating where a kid is literally robbed of a match is very rare. And in those cases, not much to do but keep asking for an official.

Chemist · Jan 28, 2013

justinmadison said:
I am trying to follow your logic. College players make terrible calls, Cheating is gonna happen, etc.. Followed by “you never lose a match because the other girl cheated”. So from this train of thought … there are many people who cheat but it never makes a difference in who actually wins the match. So all cheating is ineffectual. The cheaters think it is helping them to win but never does. Is that your position?

We would never forget the player who made a bad call on the match point. Even getting umpire over and confirmation by two dozens of the spectators would not get that point reversed. However, the worst consequence of being cheated during a match is that our kids would lose control, focus, and ability to think and stops making good judgment... Our kids can grow their games to another level after learning how to deal with cheaters. A win over a cheater is so much sweeter!

Anyone4tennis? · Jan 28, 2013

Given the fact that the world itself is already filled with cheating and other bad behaviors, should the tennis court be yet another place where we expose our children to this problem behavior so that our kids can learn how to handle it the right way when it happens in their personal lives outside the tennis court?

Shouldn't junior tournaments be a place where, during their formative years, ALL children will learn how to compete gracefully under the pressure of match play without compromising their integrity, without abandoning virtues of honesty and respect for others? Wouldn't this not only be good for our children, but also good for the sport? After all, no one is bigger than the sport itself, and I would think that all those involved in the sport would do their part in maintaining its integrity, its reputation. At the pro levels, we see a lot is being done to ensure that the image of tennis is not tarnished. The same must be done at the junior level, especially since we are dealing with children.

I write this because I love tennis and care for ALL children and the influence that they will have in the world later in their adult lives. Cheating, unsportsmanlike conduct, profanity, and any other vulgar behavior should have no place in tennis if we could help it. It will continue to happen, I know, despite our efforts, but we should make sure that we are doing everything we can to make sure it is minimized, if not permanently eradicated, in the sport of tennis.

Unfortunately, some parents believe that they can only get ahead in life by cheating. Maybe it is because they have never met successful people who have forged ahead without cheating and despite cheaters, so they teach their children what may have worked for them or what they wrongly believe to be the only way to success. Junior tournaments should be a place where the children of these parents learn otherwise.

Chemist · Jan 28, 2013

Anyone4tennis? said:
Given the fact that the world itself is already filled with cheating and other bad behaviors, should the tennis court be yet another place where we expose our children to this problem behavior so that our kids can learn how to handle it the right way when it happens in their personal lives outside the tennis court?

Shouldn't junior tournaments be a place where, during their formative years, ALL children will learn how to compete gracefully under the pressure of match play without compromising their integrity, without abandoning virtues of honesty and respect for others? Wouldn't this not only be good for our children, but also good for the sport? After all, no one is bigger than the sport itself, and I would think that all those involved in the sport would do their part in maintaining its integrity, its reputation. At the pro levels, we see a lot is being done to ensure that the image of tennis is not tarnished. The same must be done at the junior level, especially since we are dealing with children.

I write this because I love tennis and care for ALL children and the influence that they will have in the world later in their adult lives. Cheating, unsportsmanlike conduct, profanity, and any other vulgar behavior should have no place in tennis if we could help it. It will continue to happen, I know, despite our efforts, but we should make sure that we are doing everything we can to make sure it is minimized, if not permanently eradicated, in the sport of tennis.

Unfortunately, some parents believe that they can only get ahead in life by cheating. Maybe it is because they have never met successful people who have forged ahead without cheating and despite cheaters, so they teach their children what may have worked for them or what they wrongly believe to be the only way to success. Junior tournaments should be a place where the children of these parents learn otherwise.

100% agree! One way of improving the junior tournament experience may be to pay perhaps $10-20 extra to allow the tournament to hire more umpires. Majority of kids are very nice and fair especially after they get older.

TCF · Jan 28, 2013

Anyone4tennis? said:
Given the fact that the world itself is already filled with cheating and other bad behaviors, should the tennis court be yet another place where we expose our children to this problem behavior so that our kids can learn how to handle it the right way when it happens in their personal lives outside the tennis court?

Shouldn't junior tournaments be a place where, during their formative years, ALL children will learn how to compete gracefully under the pressure of match play without compromising their integrity, without abandoning virtues of honesty and respect for others? Wouldn't this not only be good for our children, but also good for the sport? After all, no one is bigger than the sport itself, and I would think that all those involved in the sport would do their part in maintaining its integrity, its reputation. At the pro levels, we see a lot is being done to ensure that the image of tennis is not tarnished. The same must be done at the junior level, especially since we are dealing with children.

I write this because I love tennis and care for ALL children and the influence that they will have in the world later in their adult lives. Cheating, unsportsmanlike conduct, profanity, and any other vulgar behavior should have no place in tennis if we could help it. It will continue to happen, I know, despite our efforts, but we should make sure that we are doing everything we can to make sure it is minimized, if not permanently eradicated, in the sport of tennis.

Unfortunately, some parents believe that they can only get ahead in life by cheating. Maybe it is because they have never met successful people who have forged ahead without cheating and despite cheaters, so they teach their children what may have worked for them or what they wrongly believe to be the only way to success. Junior tournaments should be a place where the children of these parents learn otherwise.

This is all fine....but, the other side of the coin is just as big a deal. Many, many times I have heard parents grumble that the other kid was cheating. I am standing right next to them and clearly see the call was correct.

Cheating is an issue but so is parents and kids imagining every close call is a giant problem and an excuse....or simply being dead wrong and the kid closest to the ball actually made the right call.

Frankly I think the excuse making and waiting for a close call to play the victim/excuse card is every bit or more of a problem long term than the actual cheating.

andfor · Jan 28, 2013

TCF said:
This is all fine....but, the other side of the coin is just as big a deal. Many, many times I have heard parents grumble that the other kid was cheating. I am standing right next to them and clearly see the call was correct.

Cheating is an issue but so is parents and kids imagining every close call is a giant problem and an excuse....or simply being dead wrong and the kid closest to the ball actually made the right call.

Frankly I think the excuse making and waiting for a close call to play the victim/excuse card is every bit or more of a problem long term than the actual cheating.

True. And when you are the parent you need to be very careful about judging your opponents calls. You will always be biased. Let the kids play. If there is a problem during the match don't interupt, make it a constructive learning experience post-match.

chalkflewup · Jan 29, 2013

tball2day said:
Not cheating, but apparently cursing in English or Spanish will cost you the match...this Perez kid defaulted in FLA after letting a few colorful words fly.

From Zoo Tennis (I condensed link to full below):
At Salvadore Park, where the quarterfinals and semifinals were played today in the boys 18s and boys 14s division, top seed Christian Langmo got the most unusual win of his tennis career in the semifinals, when his opponent, unseeded Alfredo Perez, was defaulted from the match at 3-3 deuce in the third set.

Perez was defaulted for his third audible obscenity in the match, the first two coming in the last game of the first set when he was serving trailing 3-5.....At 3-5, 0-30, after a Langmo winner, Perez yelled out "he's playing out of his f***ing mind" and a roving umpire gave him a point penalty..........

The third set continued with both boys playing well and holding serve until, at 3-3, Perez let a 40-15 lead get away. When he failed to win a third game point, he shouted that he was playing like the Spanish word for excrement. The assistant referee checked with her Spanish-speaking colleague to make sure she had heard it correctly, and called both boys to the net, where she awarded the match to Langmo. Langmo shook Perez's hand, then Perez tossed his racquet in the direction of his bag and after a few seconds sat down and loudly said the same word again. Because he was defaulted for misconduct, the 15-year-old from Coral Gables was not allowed to play his doubles match later in the day.

Whole story is here:
http://tenniskalamazoo.blogspot.com/

I heard he destroyed his racquet which I've seen him do before in matches. Talented kid but it's not the first time he's exploded on the court. Oddly enough, the tournament was hosted where Perez trains and his coach I believe was the TD.

What can be done to reduce the cheating?

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