Joy of Captaining....

lostinamerica · Feb 17, 2013

Is there a more thankless job? I have come to the conclusion it is better to captain a poor team. When you have a good team, there is far more whining. Eventually, you have to shorten the bench and those who don't make the final 8, think you are wrong. How do you other captains handle that. I haven' found a perfect way.

I just cut it to the players I think have the best chance at winning. Unfortunately, players who win only 2/3 of their matches think they are better than those who win them all. Also, I look to players who win big matches.

Yet, there are still players who second guess you. Also, players get mad when you play yourself.

Overdrive · Feb 17, 2013

After hearing all of the crap about leagues, I concluded that I would only play in singles tournaments.

It's too much of a hassle to be complaining about being the #3 seed when I can beat the #1 seed.

andyaycw · Feb 17, 2013

Just as a quick aside...seeds don't seem to matter much at the NTRP level.

Seems like every other tournament draw I look at that has more than 4 seeded players, sees at least half of them failing to reach the third round/Quarters (typically a draw of 32), and the remaining seeds failing to reach the Semis.

Seeding in the Open level draws seem to be much more telling..

Overdrive · Feb 17, 2013

andyaycw said:
Just as a quick aside...seeds don't seem to matter much at the NTRP level.

Seems like every other tournament draw I look at that has more than 4 seeded players, sees at least half of them failing to reach the third round/Quarters (typically a draw of 32), and the remaining seeds failing to reach the Semis.

Seeding in the Open level draws seem to be much more telling..

I know. A number doesn't designate whether they are good or not- I got the message.

I like to play Open level draws because it makes it more surprising and more of a challenge.

andyaycw · Feb 18, 2013

Yeah, I think it's a shame, really. It would be awesome if the seeds at the NTRP level actually meant something. When I see every other draw where even the top 1-2 seeds fail to reach the quarters or semis, with such a level of inconsistency, it seems almost pointless to have seeds at all for the NTRP draws.

J_R_B · Feb 18, 2013

andyaycw said:
Yeah, I think it's a shame, really. It would be awesome if the seeds at the NTRP level actually meant something. When I see every other draw where even the top 1-2 seeds fail to reach the quarters or semis, with such a level of inconsistency, it seems almost pointless to have seeds at all for the NTRP draws.

Seeding is usually done by ranking points. In NTRP especially (and sometimes in open as well), this merely signifies who plays more tournaments, not who is better.

mikeler · Feb 18, 2013

J_R_B said:
Seeding is usually done by ranking points. In NTRP especially (and sometimes in open as well), this merely signifies who plays more tournaments, not who is better.

This is exactly what happens. The one advantage the seeds get is a potential first round bye. In the Florida heat, this can be a big advantage the first day of the tournament having fresh legs going against somebody who has already played 2 or 3 sets.

omega4 · Feb 18, 2013

A good captain and leader gets the team to buy into his vision for the team, regardless of the team's personal desires and bias. It helps immensely if the captain doesn't play himself and offers up his spot to a teammate, as well as not regarding his teammates' concerns as "whining".

I take it you're not a good captain or leader then.

lostinamerica said:
Is there a more thankless job? I have come to the conclusion it is better to captain a poor team. When you have a good team, there is far more whining. Eventually, you have to shorten the bench and those who don't make the final 8, think you are wrong. How do you other captains handle that. I haven' found a perfect way.

I just cut it to the players I think have the best chance at winning. Unfortunately, players who win only 2/3 of their matches think they are better than those who win them all. Also, I look to players who win big matches.

Yet, there are still players who second guess you. Also, players get mad when you play yourself.

mikeler · Feb 18, 2013

omega4 said:
A good captain and leader gets the team to buy into his vision for the team, regardless of the team's personal desires and bias. It helps immensely if the captain doesn't play himself and offers up his spot to a teammate, as well as not regarding his teammates' concerns as "whining".

I take it you're not a good captain or leader then.

I think that criticism is a little harsh. The tennis players who sign up for leagues are usually highly competitive and have egos. I've seen it happen at our local club team where the guys who don't make the final cut get all persnickety.

Govnor · Feb 18, 2013

This is one of the reasons I think I would personally have a problem being on a team. If I'm on a team, I want to play. Tennis is not like your average team sport where everyone can be worked in to a game. It's a - you're playing or you're not playing situation. That actually sucks as a "team sport" concept. I'm sure that is not some amazing revelation to anyone here though.

J_R_B · Feb 18, 2013

omega4 said:
A good captain and leader gets the team to buy into his vision for the team, regardless of the team's personal desires and bias. It helps immensely if the captain doesn't play himself and offers up his spot to a teammate, as well as not regarding his teammates' concerns as "whining".

I take it you're not a good captain or leader then.

It depends on how good the captain is. If the captain is not one of the stronger players, then s/he shouldn't be in the lineup every match. I was 9-1 for the team I captained last year. No one had an issue with me playing every match.

lostinamerica · Feb 18, 2013

omega4 said:
A good captain and leader gets the team to buy into his vision for the team, regardless of the team's personal desires and bias. It helps immensely if the captain doesn't play himself and offers up his spot to a teammate, as well as not regarding his teammates' concerns as "whining".

I take it you're not a good captain or leader then.

Geez, were you born an A-hole or have you been working on it your whole life?

Maybe I am a bad captain. Although, it is kind of hard to justify pulling yourself from a playoff lineup when you are one of the top 3 players. I find that detrimental to the team. I am not a captain who makes a team so I have a place to play; I put teams to together to make a run at nationals. Teams like mine attract better players but at the same time bigger egos.

Everyone bought into my vision on getting to nationals; it is the irrational visions of their own games that cause friction. Some people think they will magically become mentally tough come playoffs when they choked matches in regular season matches.

I take it you are one of those who win 2/3rds of your matches but think you still deserve a playoff slot. This is not the first time you have attacked something I said. You don't like how I handle cheaters and now you don't like how I captain... Strangely, I doubt we have ever met; if we have, I can't imagine I liked you.

Overdrive · Feb 18, 2013

Govnor said:
This is one of the reasons I think I would personally have a problem being on a team. If I'm on a team, I want to play. Tennis is not like your average team sport where everyone can be worked in to a game. It's a - you're playing or you're not playing situation. That actually sucks as a "team sport" concept. I'm sure that is not some amazing revelation to anyone here though.

Here, here!

Yeah, but seriously there's too many weirdos in leagues.

I think I can play better as a freelancer and enjoy traveling alone and meeting people on my own time.

It eliminates any unnecessary stress..

spot · Feb 18, 2013

omega4 said:
A good captain and leader gets the team to buy into his vision for the team, regardless of the team's personal desires and bias. It helps immensely if the captain doesn't play himself and offers up his spot to a teammate, as well as not regarding his teammates' concerns as "whining".

I take it you're not a good captain or leader then.

I personally read this to mean that you haven't ever been captain.

I think the biggest thing about being captain is communicating up front what players should expect. If you want to be a team that is run very competitively then tell people that before the season and when they have the chance to find a new team. If you want to have a team more for game development and socializing then tell people that up front. But for competitive teams there are still going to be times when you hurt someone's feelings and you just have to be OK with that. People on tennis teams normally put their own desires first and are often a bit delusional about their own skill sets. When there are a limited spots in a playoff lineup then tough decisions need to be made and I think as captain the only thing you can do is use all the available information and be willing to express to your team why you made that choice. Be open to everyone's input but also keeping in mind that it is impossible to make everyone happy.

Mauvaise · Feb 18, 2013

Govnor said:
This is one of the reasons I think I would personally have a problem being on a team. If I'm on a team, I want to play. Tennis is not like your average team sport where everyone can be worked in to a game. It's a - you're playing or you're not playing situation. That actually sucks as a "team sport" concept. I'm sure that is not some amazing revelation to anyone here though.

That's why with the teams that I captain (thankfully only (1) this season), I try to put together 1) strong players, 2) good personalities and 3) just enough people to hopefully ensure I never have to default a court.

It's my philosophy that, as you said above, people join a team expecting to play. My goal is to play everyone equally and still be competitive. But I will sacrifice competition for equal play.

goober · Feb 18, 2013

Govnor said:
This is one of the reasons I think I would personally have a problem being on a team. If I'm on a team, I want to play. Tennis is not like your average team sport where everyone can be worked in to a game. It's a - you're playing or you're not playing situation. That actually sucks as a "team sport" concept. I'm sure that is not some amazing revelation to anyone here though.

Join a team where the philosophy is everybody gets to play and the team is kept at a small size so everyone does. My first year as captain we had 11 players, 2 of whom were part timers. So everyone expected to and got to play pretty much every match that they were available for.

spot · Feb 18, 2013

Mauvaise said:
That's why with the teams that I captain (thankfully only (1) this season), I try to put together 1) strong players, 2) good personalities and 3) just enough people to hopefully ensure I never have to default a court.

It's my philosophy that, as you said above, people join a team expecting to play. My goal is to play everyone equally and still be competitive. But I will sacrifice competition for equal play.

There are many different ways to successfully run a team. We had a team that was nicely balanced between social and competitive. Everyone on the team would play at least 3 times if they had good availability but in the biggest weeks and in playoffs we were going to put out the best lineup that we could. If we had space we would add the best players that we could that were also a social fit.

The problem was that the line 4 and 5 guys felt a bit squeezed as we added better players so our solution was to split the team and have an upper and lower team. The teams still practiced together and we basically just looked at it like we would play road matches at different spots but it doubled our lineup spots every week. The team split was wildly successful and everyone was much happier. It was so successful that we ended up splitting the team again so now we have 3 teams that operate and play together.

Our upper team is now at the highest level and they are very cut throat about playtime. Our lowest team keeps the roster small to try and make sure that everyone plays a ton. But even on the balanced team we still have an issue for the lower line guys who are feeling squeezed when it comes to playoffs because when we recruit we don't go out and try and add line 5 players. I don't think its possible to split the team yet again so at this point it is a situation for the lower guys to either deal with it, get better, or find a lower team where they can play a higher line. The balance has been that they will get their playtime in the regular season and if they are unhappy because they don't make the playoff roster then we just have to be OK with it.

J_R_B · Feb 18, 2013

goober said:
Join a team where the philosophy is everybody gets to play and the team is kept at a small size so everyone does. My first year as captain we had 11 players, 2 of whom were part timers. So everyone expected to and got to play pretty much every match that they were available for.

I agree. People who are afraid they're not going to play haven't played USTA tennis. Every captain needs every person on their roster. Obviously, some people play more than others, but everyone on my team who is available a reasonable number of weeks gets into at least 4 matches in a 10 match schedule.

Mauvaise · Feb 18, 2013

J_R_B said:
I agree. People who are afraid they're not going to play haven't played USTA tennis. Every captain needs every person on their roster. Obviously, some people play more than others, but everyone on my team who is available a reasonable number of weeks gets into at least 4 matches in a 10 match schedule.

In our current season, we have 15 matches and I have (12) people on the team. Everyone is playing at least 10 matches, except for 1 or 2 people whose travel schedules have turned out worse than they expected.

I have tried to arrange that the stronger people are always in the line up when we play the stronger teams in our flight and that certain people may have more singles play than others who requested singles, but that's about the extent of my "unfairness". Heck, I probably won't even play any singles this season (and I *like* singles) as I'm probably 4 or 5th on the list in terms of strength.

I will say, that planning the line up was a lot easier when I didn't really care about trying to make play-offs/sectionals

OrangePower · Feb 18, 2013

spot said:
There are many different ways to successfully run a team. We had a team that was nicely balanced between social and competitive. Everyone on the team would play at least 3 times if they had good availability but in the biggest weeks and in playoffs we were going to put out the best lineup that we could. If we had space we would add the best players that we could that were also a social fit.

^^^^ That's pretty much the approach I take as captain these days.

In the past I've captained 'social' teams where everyone got to play the same number of matches, regardless of strength. It was fun for a while but we were never competitive, and as a team we got tired of being bottom feeders.

I've also captained a 'mercenary' team, where the goal from the outset was clear - we were going to play the best available players every week. We did very well but never really bonded as a team.

These days I try for a balance. Better players will play a bit more, but I still try get everyone in the mix. I view this is as one of my goals as captain - to win as a team while getting everyone involved, and to give even the weaker players a chance to win some individual matches. Against the stronger teams, I put out our strongest lineup, but against weaker teams, I put in some of the weaker players on our team and try anticipate the oher team's lineup so as to create winnable matchups for my guys.

lobman · Feb 18, 2013

From the point of view of someone who has been a captain (often of several teams per season) for almost 20 years, a few observations:

Except from those who have been captains themselves, there aren't many pats on the back for being a captain.

Most players do, however, appreciate a captain they perceive as fair and knowledgeable (and having a winning phhilosophy).

Most players, even given the opportunity, don't want to captain a team. I had a mx. dbls. team that went to State a couple of years in a row and had good chemistry but when I had to step down as captain the following season, the team disbanded because no one would take the captain's job.

Because I have been a captain I think I am more understanding and less outwardly critical when I play for another captain but I also do my share of second-guessing him/her (to myself!).

Finally, I am sure there are a number of motivations for being a captain but I have seen two or three significant categories of captain over the years. There is the captain who takes the job to be certain he/she plays more than would be true if just a player. Then there is the control freak captain who has to be in charge. And there is the "I have to make everybody happy" captain who makes sure everybody plays the same amount as much as possible even if it means that he/she sits out most of the time and the best players may be out of the line up for the big match at the end of the season.

But when all is said and done, let's hear it for all the captains out there!!

Cindysphinx · Feb 18, 2013

I have captained both kinds of teams: Teams where the stated goal was to advance to playoffs, and teams where the stated goal was to play everyone equally.

Each has drawbacks. The trouble with playoff-bound teams is that no one wants to hear that so-and-so is stronger. And frankly, when you are talking about a group strong enough to win their flight, it becomes hard to know for sure who is stronger. Feelings are hurt.

If you have a team that plays everyone equally, the strongest players eventually start to complain. They don't like the weak partner they get. They get demoralized by all the losing. And most importantly, having a losing team makes it very hard to recruit, as even middling players don't want to be on a bottom-feeding team.

The hardest part for me is dealing with players whose tennis skills do not keep up as everyone else gets bumped, or players who for whatever reason (injury, family, financial) see their skills degrade.

I try not to kick anyone to the curb for poor performance (have only had to do this once since 2006 when no one would play with the lady), but I would sure appreciate it if these players recognized that I am being generous in keeping them on the roster. I mean, if you are losing losing losing and you only get to play three times that season and have a revolving door of partners, there could be a reason for this other than captain incompetence.

omega4 · Feb 18, 2013

mikeler said:
I think that criticism is a little harsh. The tennis players who sign up for leagues are usually highly competitive and have egos. I've seen it happen at our local club team where the guys who don't make the final cut get all persnickety.

Harsh perhaps, but completely honest.

The OP's situation is no different from work, where a group head is called to make decisions that aren't popular with everyone in the department, where highly competitive persons and egos abound.

Situations like this separate great leaders from good ones.

omega4 · Feb 18, 2013

J_R_B said:
It depends on how good the captain is. If the captain is not one of the stronger players, then s/he shouldn't be in the lineup every match. I was 9-1 for the team I captained last year. No one had an issue with me playing every match.

Perhaps. But if someone did have an issue and really wanted to play, would you be willing to step aside and let him?

Sometimes being a great leader calls for personal sacrifice. Of course, being a great team member calls for personal sacrifice for the betterment of the team as well.

That's the angle I would focus on when serving a team as its captain. Is a team member in it for the team or for himself?

omega4 · Feb 18, 2013

No, I've been working on it my whole life. But I must admit it takes a lot of practice to tell people what I think they need to hear, not what they want to hear.

If there's dissension in the ranks, despite the fact that everyone bought into your vision of getting to nationals, then you're failing as a leader. Some of the team has lost faith in your decision making and are responding accordingly. This isn't a personal knock against you. No one is perfect.

But your response to my post only serves as evidence that you tend to react emotionally and take things personally. You've mistaken my disagreeing with you in a previous thread (and this one) as an "attack" when I was simply stating my opinion (which you solicited from a public forum at large).

I don't think reacting emotionally and taking things personally are hallmark traits of great (or even good) captains and leaders. The ability to see things as they are and to take (and reject) criticism objectively without lashing out instinctively are just a couple of traits that great leaders share, among others.

No, we haven't met. But if we did, I wouldn't let our disagreement on forum topics stop me from having a beer with you or becoming your friend.

lostinamerica said:
Geez, were you born an A-hole or have you been working on it your whole life?

Maybe I am a bad captain. Although, it is kind of hard to justify pulling yourself from a playoff lineup when you are one of the top 3 players. I find that detrimental to the team. I am not a captain who makes a team so I have a place to play; I put teams to together to make a run at nationals. Teams like mine attract better players but at the same time bigger egos.

Everyone bought into my vision on getting to nationals; it is the irrational visions of their own games that cause friction. Some people think they will magically become mentally tough come playoffs when they choked matches in regular season matches.

I take it you are one of those who win 2/3rds of your matches but think you still deserve a playoff slot. This is not the first time you have attacked something I said. You don't like how I handle cheaters and now you don't like how I captain... Strangely, I doubt we have ever met; if we have, I can't imagine I liked you.

J_R_B · Feb 18, 2013

omega4 said:
Perhaps. But if someone did have an issue and really wanted to play, would you be willing to step aside and let him?

Sometimes being a great leader calls for personal sacrifice. Of course, being a great team member calls for personal sacrifice for the betterment of the team as well.

That's the angle I would focus on when serving a team as its captain. Is a team member in it for the team or for himself?

Depends on the match. I know which matches I have to play to have a chance and which matches we could have won with anyone off our roster. No one on my team didn't play a significant number of matches if they were available regularly.

omega4 · Feb 18, 2013

J_R_B said:
Depends on the match. I know which matches I have to play to have a chance and which matches we could have won with anyone off our roster. No one on my team didn't play a significant number of matches if they were available regularly.

Based on your mature responses and posts, I'd venture to say that you're a pretty good, if not great captain. I'd play on your team any time and fully support any decisions you made.

Maturity, knowledge, and wisdom are other attributes that great captains and leaders share (in my opinion).

spot · Feb 18, 2013

omega4 said:
If there's dissension in the ranks, despite the fact that everyone bought into your vision of getting to nationals, then you're failing as a leader.

Have you ever actually been a tennis captain? I seriously doubt it when you say stuff like this.

lostinamerica · Feb 18, 2013

omega4 said:
No, I've been working on it my whole life. But I must admit it takes a lot of practice to tell people what I think they need to hear, not what they want to hear.

If there's dissension in the ranks, despite the fact that everyone bought into your vision of getting to nationals, then you're failing as a leader. Some of the team has lost faith in your decision making and are responding accordingly. This isn't a personal knock against you. No one is perfect.

But your response to my post only serves as evidence that you tend to react emotionally and take things personally. You've mistaken my disagreeing with you in a previous thread (and this one) as an "attack" when I was simply stating my opinion (which you solicited from a public forum at large).

I don't think reacting emotionally and taking things personally are hallmark traits of great (or even good) captains and leaders. The ability to see things as they are and to take (and reject) criticism objectively without lashing out instinctively are just a couple of traits that great leaders share, among others.

No, we haven't met. But if we did, I wouldn't let our disagreement on forum topics stop me from having a beer with you or becoming your friend.

Lol!!! You are a riot. Are you sure you are not one of the deluded people that lose important matches on my roster who then think given one more chance you can finally win one?

I read your drivel and wondered if you believe your own tripe. At first reading, I thought you were serious but then realized it was just meant to be funny. I appreciate the obvious sarcasm. I just can't believe I missed it at first reading.

Once again, thanks for the laugh.

omega4 · Feb 18, 2013

spot said:
Have you ever actually been a tennis captain? I seriously doubt it when you say stuff like this.

No, I've never been a tennis captain and probably wouldn't be a good one given my long absence from the game. But I have served in various leadership positions throughout my work career, whether it's managing departments comprised of multi-cultural persons or leading cross-functional teams.

While not exactly identical, I think there are some similarities when it comes to managing/coaching/developing/leading intelligent, ambitious persons (some with egos) towards achieving a common goal.

And if by some chance you actually believe that one can't comment on being a tennis captain unless one has actually served in that capacity, I think I don't need to drive a car off a cliff to know that doing so is probably a very bad idea.

omega4 · Feb 18, 2013

lostinamerica said:
Lol!!! You are a riot. Are you sure you are not one of the deluded people that lose important matches on my roster who then think given one more chance you can finally win one?

I read your drivel and wondered if you believe your own tripe. At first reading, I thought you were serious but then realized it was just meant to be funny. I appreciate the obvious sarcasm. I just can't believe I missed it at first reading.

Once again, thanks for the laugh.

Like I said, I think it takes maturity to be a great leader (or in this case, an effective tennis captain). Some, like JRB, have it. While others....

Venetian · Feb 18, 2013

omega4 said:
No, I've never been a tennis captain and probably wouldn't be a good one given my long absence from the game. But I have served in various leadership positions throughout my work career, whether it's managing departments comprised of multi-cultural persons or leading cross-functional teams.

While not exactly identical, I think there are some similarities when it comes to managing/coaching/developing/leading intelligent, ambitious persons (some with egos) towards achieving a common goal.

And if by some chance you actually believe that one can't comment on being a tennis captain unless one has actually served in that capacity, I think I don't need to drive a car off a cliff to know that doing so is probably a very bad idea.

Look out, execuspeak!

omega4 · Feb 18, 2013

Venetian said:
Look out, execuspeak!

LOL. Sorry about that!

ohplease · Feb 18, 2013

omega4 said:
No, I've never been a tennis captain and probably wouldn't be a good one given my long absence from the game. But I have served in various leadership positions throughout my work career, whether it's managing departments comprised of multi-cultural persons or leading cross-functional teams.

While not exactly identical, I think there are some similarities when it comes to managing/coaching/developing/leading intelligent, ambitious persons (some with egos) towards achieving a common goal.

And if by some chance you actually believe that one can't comment on being a tennis captain unless one has actually served in that capacity, I think I don't need to drive a car off a cliff to know that doing so is probably a very bad idea.

Workplace management has difference vs. captaining that are subtle in appearance - but HUGE in effect. For example: people have to deal with their managers until they leap the hurdle to go get a new job. People can (and will) flake out on rec league captains with near zero effort.

Just about all captains have played for another captain as a team member at some point in time. Very few team members have captained. Unless you've actually captained, at best you can comment as a team member. The value of your comments regarding how one should captain is vanishingly small.

omega4 · Feb 18, 2013

Well, as your own signature astutely suggests, no one paid for my opinions as well. I suppose the value of my opinions are inherently worth what one paid for them in the first place.

But I stand by my comments that I think part of being a great tennis captain involves attributes like maturity, objectiveness, and not taking things personally. The same could be said about being a great corporate manager and leader.

The OP's reaction to my comments doesn't inspire me from the perspective of those attributes. Something tells me that some of his team probably thinks the same.

ohplease said:
Workplace management has difference vs. captaining that are subtle in appearance - but HUGE in effect. For example: people have to deal with their managers until they leap the hurdle to go get a new job. People can (and will) flake out on rec league captains with near zero effort.

Just about all captains have played for another captain as a team member at some point in time. Very few team members have captained. Unless you've actually captained, at best you can comment as a team member. The value of your comments regarding how one should captain is vanishingly small.

lostinamerica · Feb 19, 2013

omega4 said:
Well, as your own signature astutely suggests, no one paid for my opinions as well. I suppose the value of my opinions are inherently worth what one paid for them in the first place.

But I stand by my comments that I think part of being a great tennis captain involves attributes like maturity, objectiveness, and not taking things personally. The same could be said about being a great corporate manager and leader.

The OP's reaction to my comments doesn't inspire me from the perspective of those attributes. Something tells me that some of his team probably thinks the same.

Fortunately, I don't have to inspire you. You appear to be pretty inspired with yourself.

When I saw one if your posts that you were between a 2.5 and 3.0 but used to be a 4.0, I realized I am dealing with someone who is either making a joke or just does not know enough about this to make an opinion. You really are funny. I've never read so many over the top unwarranted insults. This is fun reading your completely unqualified opinion.

A 4.0 lays off and comes back and will not be a 2.5. Many 4.0s are really pretty good players and a 2.5 is just hoping the ball goes back in the court. Even a long layoff does not make you a 2.5 to 3.0. There is a reason us captains always look for players who have laid off and might be rusty but can project them over a few months. I really don't think you can comprehend what I say. If you are that bad, then you were never a 4.0 and really cannot comprehend this whole USTA league game. Come back after captaining a team to at least sectionals and preferably to the big dance.

spot · Feb 19, 2013

No, I've never been a tennis captain and probably wouldn't be a good one given my long absence from the game. But I have served in various leadership positions throughout my work career

Just as I thought. First of all time off from the game has nothing at all to do with being a tennis captain. Many people who pick the game up late in life end up as tremendous tennis captains.

In work people are PAID to be there. They are PAID to put the goals of the company over their own selfish interests. They are specifically hired to have a certain skillset and if someone isn't performing adequately they can be replaced with no problem. You can make someone show up at a certain time and do something that they don't really want to do. If they have a problem with it you can pay them more or find someone else. If my league starts to give me funding to pay my players then I'll tell you that the job of captaining would get dramatically easier.

Being a tennis captain is taking a bunch of people who are volunteering their time because they enjoy playing tennis and then having to make it more like a job. Some teams the problem is convincing people to play when they may have other priorities that day. Some days its convincing players to play with someone they do not wish to. Sometimes it is putting out a lineup which makes the person realize that you do not think that they are as good as they KNOW they are. Sometimes its about splitting a pairing that has been successful simply because one person wants a new partner but doesn't want to tell the other person that. Sometimes its asking someone to wake up early and drive 45 minutes to play when they have the option of just sleeping in and playing on the free courts in their neighborhood instead. League tennis makes it so you have to ask volunteers to jump through hoops and to pay for the privilege of doing so.

To be honest the single biggest skill as a tennis captain is managing people's disappointment when you ask them to do something that they wouldn't choose if they were captain. It isn't a job or a college team- this is making a group of individuals volunteer to fulfill the structure and rules of a league. It is impossible to make everyone happy as a tennis captain because you have to have exactly the right number of people in the lineup every week.

And if by some chance you actually believe that one can't comment on being a tennis captain unless one has actually served in that capacity

I think you can comment on it, I just think that you make yourself look pretty foolish when you do because you obviously have no clue about how it actually works. At least you have the awareness you would be a lousy captain, normally players who complain about the captain think that the job is easy but don't want to do it themselves.

I think that every captain will tell you that the best teammates to have are the people that have been a captain themselves. There is simply no substitute for the experience of having to deal with all the behind the scenes stuff that goes along with being a good captain that the other people on the team are blissfully unaware of.

mikeler · Feb 19, 2013

omega4 said:
Harsh perhaps, but completely honest.

The OP's situation is no different from work, where a group head is called to make decisions that aren't popular with everyone in the department, where highly competitive persons and egos abound.

Situations like this separate great leaders from good ones.

Tennis is played for leisure. Work is done for money. Not a great comparison.

Cindysphinx · Feb 19, 2013

omega4 said:
Harsh perhaps, but completely honest.

The OP's situation is no different from work, where a group head is called to make decisions that aren't popular with everyone in the department, where highly competitive persons and egos abound.

Situations like this separate great leaders from good ones.

OP's situation is completely different from work-for-hire.

Leading workers and leading volunteers are two separate things. If you are leading paid workers, you do not have to spoon feed them information and beg them to show up. Paid workers have far less freedom to leave at the drop of a hat, for a variety of reasons I probably don't need to list.

I mean, think about it. Does the head nurse have to call the subordinate nurse to make sure she will be there on time for the heart bypass surgery? Does she have to give her the address and plead with her not to show up at the last second and allow time for traffic, and then thank her repeatedly for doing these basic things? I have to do all of these things.

When you're the boss in the workplace, your subordinates work for you. When you are the captain of a tennis team, you work for your teammates.

Also, it is naive to suggest that the captain give up her playing spot because a player gripes about not playing. The captain's loyalty should be to the team, not the squeaky wheel. And if it is doubles, you have to consider the preferences of the partner, who might not wish to play with Squeaky.

You probably have more workplace managerial experience than I do. I think if you were to try to lead a tennis team the way you would run a successful business, it would make for a great sit-com.

I can see it now: "Karen, you're playing No. 1 doubles with Missy, 9 pm, East Side Courts."

"WHAAAAT? Why am I Doubles 1? Becky and Sara should be Doubles 1! I didn't join this team to be sacrificed! Besides, I told you Missy and I don't do well because she's a head case! And no way am I playing a 9 pm match! I won't get home until midnight, and I have to get up with the baby in the middle of the night and get my kids off to school. Nah, that won't work for me."

Good luck with that.

omega4 · Feb 19, 2013

After your posts in this thread, I'm sure now that you've lost the confidence of some, if not most, of the team that your captaining.

Good luck with that.

lostinamerica said:
Fortunately, I don't have to inspire you. You appear to be pretty inspired with yourself.

When I saw one if your posts that you were between a 2.5 and 3.0 but used to be a 4.0, I realized I am dealing with someone who is either making a joke or just does not know enough about this to make an opinion. You really are funny. I've never read so many over the top unwarranted insults. This is fun reading your completely unqualified opinion.

A 4.0 lays off and comes back and will not be a 2.5. Many 4.0s are really pretty good players and a 2.5 is just hoping the ball goes back in the court. Even a long layoff does not make you a 2.5 to 3.0. There is a reason us captains always look for players who have laid off and might be rusty but can project them over a few months. I really don't think you can comprehend what I say. If you are that bad, then you were never a 4.0 and really cannot comprehend this whole USTA league game. Come back after captaining a team to at least sectionals and preferably to the big dance.

spot · Feb 19, 2013

omega- you already admitted that you haven't been a tennis captain. How long has it been since you have even played on a tennis team?

omega4 · Feb 19, 2013

Rather than address several members posts point by point, I'll just leave it at we can choose to agree to disagree.

I will say that based on many of your comments, it sounds like many tennis players on your teams in the leagues you're a part of (ALTA, USTA, etc.) probably should NOT be playing league tennis and may be better suited mentatlity-wise for tournaments, where they do not have to personally sacrifice for the good of the league team.

I'll also add that when a captain complains about captaining a team and views it as a chore, perhaps it's time for a captain to step down and pass on the reigns to someone with more zest and positivity for the job.

When I join a league team (ALTA, USTA, etc.) this year, my captain can be assured that I will do what he asks of me (short of compromising my principles, i.e. I will NOT intentionally cheat) for the betterment of the team.

spot · Feb 19, 2013

omega- you already admitted that you haven't been a tennis captain. How long has it been since you have even played on a tennis team?

lostinamerica · Feb 19, 2013

omega4 said:
After your posts in this thread, I'm sure now that you've lost the confidence of some, if not most, of the team that your captaining.

Good luck with that.

You are sure of something you know nothing about... Interesting...

You also said "when you join a team..." You have never even played team tennis and you are sure of anything? After reading your posts, I'm sure now that you have no idea what you are talking about. You are like a first year law school grad thinking you know more than the old curmudgeon down the hall.

omega4 · Feb 19, 2013

spot said:
omega- you already admitted that you haven't been a tennis captain. How long has it been since you have even played on a tennis team?

The last "formal" competitive tennis team I've played on was during high school (some 20+ years ago).

The last "informal" tennis team I've played on was during freshman year in college (Boston) some 20+ years ago, where I captained an intramural (IM) tennis team. As it was an informal tennis league among the various living groups at the University, I don't really consider it a "formal" tennis league.

And that was the last time that I've played tennis. Been playing golf ever since.

spot · Feb 19, 2013

omega4 said:
The last "formal" competitive tennis team I've played on was during high school (some 20+ years ago).

The last "informal" tennis team I've played on was during freshman year in college (Boston) some 20+ years ago, where I captained an intramural (IM) tennis team. As it was an informal tennis league among the various living groups at the University, I don't really consider it a "formal" tennis league.

And that was the last time that I've played tennis. Been playing golf ever since.

Ha. you should definitely send this thread to your first captain before the season starts. If he is going to have someone like you on the roster the very least you should do is give him the heads up before the season starts.

omega4 · Feb 19, 2013

spot said:
Ha. you should definitely send this thread to your first captain before the season starts. If he is going to have someone like you on the roster the very least you should do is give him the heads up before the season starts.

The heads up on what?

Cindysphinx · Feb 19, 2013

omega4 said:
I'll also add that when a captain complains about captaining a team and views it as a chore, perhaps it's time for a captain to step down and pass on the reigns to someone with more zest and positivity for the job.

I view it as a chore because it IS a chore.

I am an unpaid volunteer. I put in a lot of hours to captain a team. There is no question that it is work. (One thing that makes the work more difficult is players who have never captained yet think they have all the anwers.)

Nevertheless, I keep doing captaining. Why? In my case, the main reason is so that I know I will be able to play on league tennis team that is run the way I think league tennis teams should be run. Then when I play on teams captained by others, I can be chill about it. I've no need to second-guess my captain, as my whole season is not invested in how they run their team.

The secondary reason is that I cannot be sure us friends could stay together if I stopped captaining. The team might split up, which would deprive all of us of playing opportunities, perhaps.

The final reason is that some folks are not cut out for captaining, but some folks are. I am a pretty organized person and can handle captaining, so I might as well do it since it doesn't take a toll on me the way it does for some other people who do not handle running the show very well.

There's some insight for you, should you ever decide to join a team or try to captain. FWIW, I decided to captain a team as a 2.5 beginner who had never played a tennis match before. Your long layoff does not disqualify you from captaining if you think you can handle it.

spot · Feb 19, 2013

omega4 said:
The heads up on what?

That you are the kind of player who has never played on a tennis team but think that you know how the team should be run. That you are the kind of person who thinks that because people are disappointed by a captain's decision that it means that the captain is doing a poor job. That you think that your job experience makes you qualified to know how tennis teams should be run. That you are the kind of person who thinks that because someone treats the job as captain as work that they should no longer be captain.

Send this thread to him and let him make his own decisions. Trust me- any captain would badly want to know about this thread before someone joined their team.

omega4 · Feb 19, 2013

There's no denying that being a tennis captain involves a lot of work and can be a thankless job. That's the nature of the "business", as most leadership positions whether at work or in sports involve lots of work and are thankless.

That's why I think it's imperative to have a zest for it and a positive attitude. Anything less will only negatively impact the captain/leader outlook, which in turn will be picked up on by the rest of the team.

Of course, it doesn't hurt if you have ulterior motives for serving as a tennis captain. That alone can serve as a powerful motivator to deal with all the work and that comes with being a tennis captain.

I agree that there are some who simply aren't cut out to be a tennis captain or for holding leadership positions. It's not a knock on them. Perhaps it just isn't their "time" to lead right now.

I don't think I'd make a very good tennis captain at the moment because I'm just starting to play tennis again. My tennis skills, knowledge of strategy/tactics are rusty at best. I'm also new to my area (Atlanta), so I'm not very familiar with the in's and outs' of the local tennis league (ALTA) or the national one (USTA) for that matter.

These "weaknessess" outweigh my "strengths" (motivation, positiveness, organization skills).

I think I'd be doing a tennis team a disservice by serving as its captain until I get my game back to speed and familiarize myself with how the tennis leagues "work".

Cindysphinx said:
I view it as a chore because it IS a chore.

I am an unpaid volunteer. I put in a lot of hours to captain a team. There is no question that it is work. (One thing that makes the work more difficult is players who have never captained yet think they have all the anwers.)

Nevertheless, I keep doing captaining. Why? In my case, the main reason is so that I know I will be able to play on league tennis team that is run the way I think league tennis teams should be run. Then when I play on teams captained by others, I can be chill about it. I've no need to second-guess my captain, as my whole season is not invested in how they run their team.

The secondary reason is that I cannot be sure us friends could stay together if I stopped captaining. The team might split up, which would deprive all of us of playing opportunities, perhaps.

The final reason is that some folks are not cut out for captaining, but some folks are. I am a pretty organized person and can handle captaining, so I might as well do it since it doesn't take a toll on me the way it does for some other people who do not handle running the show very well.

There's some insight for you, should you ever decide to join a team or try to captain. FWIW, I decided to captain a team as a 2.5 beginner who had never played a tennis match before. Your long layoff does not disqualify you from captaining if you think you can handle it.

Joy of Captaining....

Semi-Pro

Legend

New User

Legend

New User

Hall of Fame

Moderator

Rookie

Moderator

Professional

Hall of Fame

Semi-Pro

Legend

Hall of Fame

Rookie

Legend

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Rookie

Legend

Rookie

G.O.A.T.

Rookie

Rookie

Rookie

Hall of Fame

Rookie

Hall of Fame

Semi-Pro

Rookie

Rookie

Professional

Rookie

Professional

Rookie

Semi-Pro

Hall of Fame

Moderator

G.O.A.T.

Rookie

Hall of Fame

Rookie

Hall of Fame

Semi-Pro

Rookie

Hall of Fame

Rookie

G.O.A.T.

Hall of Fame

Rookie

Similar threads