Players still make clean contact

FrisbeeFool · Jan 21, 2013

I guess I'll create a new topic for this since it seems to be a big misconception people have about tennis history.

Go back and watch videos of tennis in the 80's and 90's. The Forehand grips have become more extreme. With the semiwestern grip, players rotate more into, through and out of the modern forehand. They get the flat pace and the topspin to bring the ball up and down. Players today have higher takebacks with the racket head above their hitting hand. Many players were already hitting like this in the 80's and before.

If you're following internet advice to pull off your stroke, you are headed for distaster. Players today have long follow-throughs. Always have. Always will. They make solid contact and have repeatable clean strokes that rarely miss. If you're hitting with too much of a brushy glancing blow because that's what you perceive on tv, you aren't focusing on what is really happening in the stroke. Get a good coach who will teach the fundamentals in a clear way without the mystical ambiguous language.

luvforty · Jan 21, 2013

hold the horses -

who is saying glancing blow with a brush?

the difference is there, but you are the one going to the other extreme opposite to 'clean contact'.

sureshs · Jan 21, 2013

Clean contact is very important otherwise what you end up with is a club player who is neither here or there - cannot put a ball reliably in a certain area on demand with a simple stroke, nor can produce the massive top spin with power that the juniors do. Some flashy Fed-like actions, then comes back and posts here that he lost to an old pusher who got the balls back with slice.

the hack · Jan 21, 2013

sureshs said:
Clean contact is very important otherwise what you end up with is a club player who is neither here or there - cannot put a ball reliably in a certain area on demand with a simple stroke, nor can produce the massive top spin with power that the juniors do. Some flashy Fed-like actions, then comes back and posts here that he lost to an old pusher who got the balls back with slice.

I think the pro's racquet speed is so fast that most people don't understand the path the raquet is really taking. thank goodness for slow motion on you-tube.

sureshs · Jan 21, 2013

the hack said:
I think the pro's racquet speed is so fast that most people don't understand the path the raquet is really taking. thank goodness for slow motion on you-tube.

They miss the clean square contact and the extension before and after contact before the racket comes over. This was nicely pointed out by Peter Burwash, who used to be a pro player in his time.

Nikae · Mar 2, 2013

One of best posts on this forum. Let me clear whats OP trying to say, with a single link:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/topspin.php

Relinquis · Mar 2, 2013

isn't he OP the guy who said one shouldn't give advice without being able to demonstrate it (in relation to the single handed backhand thread)?

I believe "put up or shut up"... was how you had phrased it.

But to address the topic of this thread. yes, you should hit through the ball, with lost of volume through contact and have a full follow through.

WildVolley · Mar 2, 2013

Speak for yourself. Some of my heaviest spin shots are all frame!:twisted:

thecode · Mar 4, 2013

luvforty said:
hold the horses -

who is saying glancing blow with a brush?

good question. who is saying that or pull off the ball? I've never heard that advice anywhere. I have heard many say not to do those things.

rufus_smith · Mar 5, 2013

Nikae said:
One of best posts on this forum. Let me clear whats OP trying to say, with a single link:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/topspin.php

but op says :"If you're following internet advice to pull off your stroke, you are headed for distaster"

Povl Carstensen · Mar 5, 2013

I think most anyone agree in hitting through. What other factors go into the shot has been quite intensively debated though.
I would mention that more brushing activity can be seen for achieving short, sharp angles, trying to make the ball dip at a volleyers feet, and perhaps for getting low balls closer to the net up and down again on the other side.

TennisCJC · Mar 6, 2013

Nikae said:
One of best posts on this forum. Let me clear whats OP trying to say, with a single link:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/topspin.php

This ^^^ is good internet advice. My thought is wrist is relaxed and passive and the site above seems to show that - at least that is what I see. And, yes there is extension up and thru the impact zone.

But, I do disagree with the site that it is straight up the back off the ball. You are rotating your arm into contact with your core rotation hips and shoulders. The pattern of you hand and racket head is an eclipse if viewed from above. There is an element of across in the swing as the eclipse will begin to pull to the L for a right handed player around the impact zone. The has been discussed, debated, and argued too often here, but I think the correct thought is the racket head moves up, thru, and across with a passive wrist - no fancy brushing, no yanking back with hand, just a smooth stroke.

JCo872 · Apr 16, 2013

TennisCJC said:
This ^^^ is good internet advice. My thought is wrist is relaxed and passive and the site above seems to show that - at least that is what I see. And, yes there is extension up and thru the impact zone.

But, I do disagree with the site that it is straight up the back off the ball. You are rotating your arm into contact with your core rotation hips and shoulders. The pattern of you hand and racket head is an eclipse if viewed from above. There is an element of across in the swing as the eclipse will begin to pull to the L for a right handed player around the impact zone. The has been discussed, debated, and argued too often here, but I think the correct thought is the racket head moves up, thru, and across with a passive wrist - no fancy brushing, no yanking back with hand, just a smooth stroke.

If you look at the animations on the link the racket head does go straight up and forward for those two or three frames. You can see how the tip of the racket is not coming across at all but going straight up and forward.

Of course after those frames the arm does come across in the "windshield wiper" finish. But I think these few frames of animation are crucial because it shows how "clean contact" results from going through and straight up in that brief moment in time before coming across. Of course this is all completely invisible to the human eye when watching pros play. You really have to see the animations to believe it.

NLBwell · Apr 16, 2013

You can't see if the racket is going across the ball at impact, but you can see the spin and bounce of the ball - which will tell you how the racket impacted the ball.
Pro players can hit with either direction of sidespin or with none as they choose.

5263 · Apr 16, 2013

NLBwell said:
You can't see if the racket is going across the ball at impact, but you can see the spin and bounce of the ball - which will tell you how the racket impacted the ball.
Pro players can hit with either direction of sidespin or with none as they choose.

yep,
this like other examples we have used in the past, shows with the front view,
how the racket is moving across at impact and giving sidespin.
The camera angle only serves to lessen the impact, as it would be even more clear
if the camera were inline with the outgoing ball path.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AaK3aDw3M0

NLBwell · Apr 18, 2013

I can't see it clearly enough on my computer to pick up the spin of the ball.

mightyrick · Apr 18, 2013

WildVolley said:
Speak for yourself. Some of my heaviest spin shots are all frame!:twisted:

I agree with this.

I don't like to hit off-center just because it can be jarring to the arm/elbow/shoulder, but some of my nastiest topspin shots are hit at the lower-portion of the racquet head... hitting both strings and frame.

Most of these kinds of mis-hits occur when I go for too much low-to-high and too much racquet head speed. The result is usually a super-topspin heavy ball or a complete miss.

sureshs · Apr 18, 2013

^^^ Those can have unpredictable spin too, especially the ones which are all frame. I have almost twisted by back going the wrong way with some of those.

Povl Carstensen · Apr 18, 2013

NLBwell said:
I can't see it clearly enough on my computer to pick up the spin of the ball.

On the second shot I can clearly see the sidespin (top/sidespin that is).

NLBwell · Apr 18, 2013

Either my display isn't good enough or my eyes aren't good enough.

Povl Carstensen · Apr 18, 2013

You can up the quality to 480 and go full screen, but I guess you allready did that.

Povl Carstensen · Apr 18, 2013

TennisCJC said:
This ^^^ is good internet advice. My thought is wrist is relaxed and passive and the site above seems to show that - at least that is what I see. And, yes there is extension up and thru the impact zone.

But, I do disagree with the site that it is straight up the back off the ball. You are rotating your arm into contact with your core rotation hips and shoulders. The pattern of you hand and racket head is an eclipse if viewed from above. There is an element of across in the swing as the eclipse will begin to pull to the L for a right handed player around the impact zone. The has been discussed, debated, and argued too often here, but I think the correct thought is the racket head moves up, thru, and across with a passive wrist - no fancy brushing, no yanking back with hand, just a smooth stroke.

Pretty spot on imo. But of course there are different ways to hit the ball, from player to player, and situation to situation, and what specifically you are trying to do with the ball.
An example: To hit an inside out forhand, you hit earlier in the eclipse you mention (you delay the swing slightly), to get the inside out deflection, which then also creates inside out spin. To hit across (on an across shot), you hit later in the eclipse (swinging a bit earlier, meeting the ball later in the eclipse), but also more straight on, getting less sidespin, or maybe even spin in the opposite direction. Ofcourse this adjustment can also be made with the wrist, or as a combination.
And then of course there is the question about at what height the ball is hit. Hitting in knee height, it is normal to have some left to right racket head movement.
Just tossing something out...

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