0/0 loss

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Playtennis, Apr 28, 2013.

  1. Playtennis

    Playtennis New User

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    Atrocious match. 0/0. I had heard that the algorythm doesnt use this for rating because system doesnt understand it. Anyone know?
     
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  2. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    Opinions vary.

    Most everyone agrees that that USTA used to not count them at all. But in the past year or so, there have been indications that perhaps they are counted now, although I don't know that this has been conclusively confirmed.

    In my opinion, they should be counted when they have valid meaning. What I mean by this is if the expected result of a match is closer than 0 & 0, it should count. But if the player's ratings were far enough apart that the expected result was 0 & 0 or "worse", then it shouldn't count as including it would only hurt the winning player which isn't equitable.

    This approach is what my Estimated Dynamic NTRP Reports use.
     
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  3. Playtennis

    Playtennis New User

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    Thanks. So in this case 3.5 plays 4.0 singles 3.5 loses 0/0 ( me). Expected result prob isnt 0/0 so prob counts?
     
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  4. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    If you are a high end 3.5 and you played a low to medium 4.0, then the expected result probably wasn't 0 & 0 so it would count if indeed 0 & 0 matches now count.
     
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  5. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    It should count. why would it hurt the higher rated player anyway ?
     
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  6. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    Say a 4.0 that has an actual dynamic rating of 3.9 plays a 3.5 with an actual dynamic rating of 3.1. This is a 0.8 difference that is over a full level (0.5) apart. If an 0 & 0 result gives the better player a match rating the opponent rating plus 0.5, this is going to be lower than his current rating and is new dynamic rating will go down. So yes, because there is no result that would give the better player a high enough match rating, his rating will be hurt.
     
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  7. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    what if the score was 7-6 7-6. why is this better ?
     
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  8. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    By winning any games at all, the lower rated player makes the match meaningful since he was expected to win no games.

    Basically, by winning 0 & 0, the better player has done everything he could and shouldn't be penalized.

    But if he wins 6 & 6, he is not as good as his rating indicated, the other player is better, or both, and so this match is meaningful and ratings can be updated based on it.
     
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  9. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    Yea but the better player will likely lower his rating for giving up so many games to lower player, much lower player. wouldn't this hurt the better player even more ?
     
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  10. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    ok so the other day, I was playing the 4.5 match against these two decent 4.0's. We were up 3-0 and I rolled my ankle. I had to be real careful since I wasn't sure how bad this injury was. and they took the 1st set 6-4. then my ankle warmed up and felt ok and we won the 2nd set 6-0. then we won the 3rd set Super tiebreaker, 10-4.

    So you are saying this is better than if we just blew them away 6-2, 6-0??
     
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  11. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    Yes, the 7-6,7-6 win will hurt the better player's rating more. But you aren't getting the point that a 6-0,6-0 match should not count in this scenario since there is no result that wouldn't hurt the better player's rating. If the better player wins 6-0,6-0, they have done everything they can and shouldn't (IMHO) be penalized simply because the opponent was so weak.
     
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  12. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    I had just this exact thing happen this weekend. I put up a double bagel in my first singles match of the season, but I was playing a guy who was just rated up from 3.0 to 3.5 then joined a 4.0 team. Once I figured out what was going on, I tried to be somewhat relentless because he really shouldn't be playing 4.0, and I wanted to "encourage" him to join a 3.5 team and pay his dues there...
     
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  13. Govnor

    Govnor Professional

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    Nothing wrong with this, people should pay their dues and not waste your time.
     
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  14. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    I totally understand the need for weaker teams to backfill their roster with players from the next level down and get experience playing up and all that, but they really should be players that are almost ready to move up anyway and can at least play competitively at the next level, not guys just moving into the lower level trying to skip up two levels at once. But whatever, it was a beautiful day to play tennis and our team started off the season with a 5-0 shut out, so it's all good. Plus, my team in NJ had a key match on Sunday against one of other contending teams in our league, so at least I didn't get all worn out on Saturday. LOL.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2013
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  15. Playtennis

    Playtennis New User

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    Schmke---
    When you do your report do you factor that 0-0 loss/ win in?
     
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  16. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    I factor 0/0 matches in only if they are meaningful. That is, if the match was supposed to be 0/0 or closer, it is counted as the result does tell you something, that the better player met or exceeded what he was supposed to do.

    But if the players are rated so far apart that the better player has no way of meeting or exceeding the expectation and their rating can only go down by including the result, the match is not included.
     
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  17. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    That's the sensible way to handle them from the winner's perspective imo. An 0-0 win should never make a player's rating go down but could possibly make it go up, based on the expected match outcome determined from the dynamic ratings of the participants before the match.
     
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  18. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    While I wrote the blurb from the winner's perspective, I think it makes sense for the loser too. A 0/0 loss should never make a player's rating go up.
     
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  19. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    I remember my only 0/0 loss.

    Was a 3.0 first year tennis player who got a big head in the fall and decided to play a 3.5 singles tournament.

    I was 25 my opponent over 60 and he spanked my young bottom!!
     
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  20. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Absolutely agree.
     
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  21. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Damn, I worked hard for some of those 0/0 losses :)
     
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  22. lostinamerica

    lostinamerica Semi-Pro

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    I've heard it counts and does not count. Our Section director over the NTRP ratings and I were talking but he would not give me a straight answer. He did make in unequivocally clear that 0&0 can be a strike for DQ but I am not sure if it is included in the year end ratings.

    I observed a person put an 0&0 beatdown on someone who was a computer rated player a level down. The winner got DQ'd in 3 matches verifying that was correct. Yet, 1 strike was against against a guy a level below. Another was against someone that belongs a level below and is doing what he can to get back down. His first strike (ala, match 1 was a close win (5&4) against a good but not great player at level).

    I've seen some might strange things. I have seen DQs that were not warranted and non-DQs that were. It is what it is...
     
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  23. coyote

    coyote Rookie

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  24. coyote

    coyote Rookie

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  25. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    Wow that guy sucked, how in the h3ll did he get dq'd?
     
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  26. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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  27. coyote

    coyote Rookie

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    Yeah, that one perplexing too. That guy is playing up and winning and beating everyone at his own level. If he were my player, I would have assumed he was gone by now.

    I do not always know what to think. I have wondered if some captains get a little less tolerance but I know the captain on this other guy is about as much a who cares captain as there would ever be. This is a group of guys that mostly should be in 3.0 and nobody that should have been DQ'd.
     
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  28. spinorama

    spinorama Rookie

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    I'm curious how I'm not DQ'd yet. I have been waiting for it.... Undefeated in #1 slot with many bagels for wins....playing in one of the most competitive regions in the country too. C'MON Usta, I'm ready to climb.
     
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  29. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    One question is if the Southern section and Alabama district use the Winter league results (sections have discretion over what leagues/seasons count for rating purposes). It is possible only the Spring league is used in which case he only has 4 matches, the first being a close loss. But that loss may be enough to have avoided an early strike.
     
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  30. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    I still haven't found a definitive answer to that Kevin and I have asked several captains who are old timers.

    The close loss, his only one, was playing up at 4.0 but he and his partner also had a straight set win playing up.
     
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  31. coyote

    coyote Rookie

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  32. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Yes he did, today in fact.
     
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  33. storypeddler

    storypeddler Semi-Pro

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    Yes---and think about it. If the better player struggled to escape with a 7-6, 7-6 victory, then his rating SHOULD be penalized to some degree. Either his opponent is better than the numbers indicate, or his own game is worse.
     
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  34. rainman007

    rainman007 Rookie

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    they dont count
     
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  35. Big_Dangerous

    Big_Dangerous Legend

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    Nothing like losing to some old guy that makes you feel like ****.
     
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  36. SunshineJS

    SunshineJS New User

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    False... they do. Towards DQs and year-ends. Know for an absolute fact.
     
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