15 greatest players of all time

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by capriatifanatic, Sep 11, 2006.

  1. jnd28

    jnd28 Rookie

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    I personally think that in rating the best players of all time one should include Singles and Doubles performance. Or are we talking about the best singles players of all time? Tennis includes both Singles and Doubles so the best tennis player should excel at both. If you buy my argument (and I cant think of how someone logically could not ;) ) Emmo would need to be included ( cant believe the lack of respect this 28 slam title holder gets) and it would be pretty much a slam dunk for Laver at number 1. Mac and Newk would move up the ranks as well.

    JND28
     
  2. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    http://www.tenniscorner.net/index.php?corner=w&action=headtohead&player1id=GRS001&player2id=NAM001

    Those numbers would beg to differ making head to head 9 even.

    I am sorry I don't see Borg doing anything that puts him so far ahead of Federer. Same goes for Sampras I feel the three fall on the same level.

    1. Pancho Gonzalez
    2. Rod Laver
    3. Don Budge
    4. Bjorn Borg
    5. Roger Federer
    6. Pete Sampras
    7. Ken Rosewell
    8. Bill Tilden
    9. Ivan Lendl
    10. John Mcenroe
    11. Jimmy Connors
    12. Mats Wilander
    13. Rene Lacoste
    14. Rafael Nadal
    15. Fred Perry

    Women
    1. Martina Navratilova
    2. Steffi Graf
    3. Margaret Court
    4. Chris Evert
    5. Wills Moddy
    6. Lenglen
    7. Billie Jean King
    8. Serena Williams
    9. Maureen Connolly
    10. Monica Seles
    11. Justine Henin
    12. Venus Williams
    13. Dorthea Chambers
    14. Evonne Goolagong
    15. Martina Hingis
     
  3. JoshDragon

    JoshDragon Hall of Fame

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    I don't really have a concrete top 15 but I would probably rank Federer, Sampras, and Nadal as the top 3.
     
  4. capriatifanatic

    capriatifanatic Banned

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    Seles and Henin were lucky in alot of their wins over Capriati where Jennifer outplayed them, like those 2 U.S Open semis I showed. Henin had most of her wins over Jennifer when Jennifer was past her prime. Seles had alot of hers over Jennifer when she was only 15 and 16 years old.
     
  5. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    Head to heads apparently mean nothing to capriati fanatic, so do slam titles, ranking or anything. Capriati would have destroyed everyone and was better apparently even though she lost. It is apparently not about who wins as Capriati was far better..oh yea and Federer beat Nadal on clay at Hamburg 07 does that make him far superior to Nadal on clay..I think not. Yet watch Capriatifanatic call that comparison ridiculous even though she has claimed Capriati to be better than Steffi because of her single win over her at the Olympics.
     
  6. capriatifanatic

    capriatifanatic Banned

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    Wow are you claiming those 2 U.S Open matches I showed where Seles and Henin at their near worst? They were both playing out of their minds and still were being outplayed by Jennifer, despite their lucky wins in those two matches.
     
  7. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    Well Capriati ruined her career with drugs...Henin's wins over Capriati 1 in 2001..Capriati won 2 slams that year, 1 in 2002, Capriati won a slam and 3 in 2003 qf and a sf in slam and a title and let alone she was still playing top tennis in 2004 before disappearing.

    Seles consistently beat Capriati throughout her whole career. In her youth and in her comeback.
     
  8. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    no I am talking the 2003 US Open Semi's between Justine & Jennifer and the 2-1 winning record Seles had over Capriati in 2001, Jennifer's best year, they were at their worst and Jenn playing her best couldn't beat them. Jennifer was not losing because of bad luck, she won because she got lucky. but since we so obviously disagree I am leaving it at that.
     
  9. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Masters 9 finals in a row actually

     
  10. sanmazz

    sanmazz New User

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    Monica Seles

    Best ever
     
  11. crabgrass

    crabgrass Rookie

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    women

    15.hart
    14.henin
    13.venus
    12.bueno
    11.goolagong
    10.lenglen
    9.seles
    8.king
    7.serena
    6.wills moody
    5.connolly
    4.court
    3.evert
    2.navratilova
    1.graf

    this was more or less off the top of my head so there's a chance i may have overlooked someone altogether....but overall seems about right.
     
  12. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    Thats not a bad list. Your top 4 are spot on. Connolly at 5 is a bit of a gamble, but at the same time I can see why you did it, she had the potential in her and should have won a lot more if not for that accident, so I can understand it, the little time she had was a testiment to her talent.

    Serena at 7...ehhh. I would at least have King above Serena, if we judged Serena based on 2002-2003 alone, yeah she could be there, but on the whole I would place King higher, and Seles also. Although thats just a respectful difference of opinion. I would also switch Henin and Venus...in fact Venus on my list would be around 18 or 19. 5 Wimbledons is amazing, but Henin has a greater diversity in that she won 3 of the 4 slams and spent more weeks at number 1, unless you factored in Head to Head? Lenglen at 10 is also a bit of a shock...but again her competition was not the best so I can understand that one.
     
  13. grafrules

    grafrules Banned

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    I think Graf, Navratilova, Evert, and Court are really on their own little tier. You could argue those 4 to put in any order from #1 to #4 depending on your criteria and personal opinions. Lenglen, Wills Moody, Connoly really I have on a second tier of their own which could be argued from any order from #5 to #7. Seles, King, and Serena I am thinking are on a third tier from #8 to #10 that could be argued in any order. Goolagong, Henin, Bueno, Chambers, Marble I would probably put in the tier after that one. Then the tier below that I would have people like Brough, Osborne Du Pont, Venus, Hart, Gibson, maybe Fry. Venus I dont even have on the same tier as Henin, one tier lower than Henin and two lower than Serena. Her career is great in some ways, but very incomplete in many others unfortunately (and as far as being a fan I actually like Venus, alot more than Serena in fact).

    Breaking down some key areas between the BIG 4 this is how I would rank them:

    Consistency:

    1. Evert
    2. Graf
    3. Court
    4. Navratilova

    Longevity:

    1. Navratilova
    2. Court
    3. Evert
    4. Graf

    Dominance:

    1. Navratilova
    2. Graf
    3. Court
    4. Evert

    Versatility:

    1. Graf
    2. Evert
    3. Court
    4. Navratilova

    Funny adding up those #s it would come to:

    Evert- 10
    Navratilova- 10
    Graf- 9
    Court- 11

    Those are of course my own rankings in each of those categories though and there are other factors to consider not so easily quantifiable.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2009
  14. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    1. Laver
    2. Borg
    3. Gonzalez
    4. Sampras
    5. Rosewall
    6. Tilden
    7. Federer
    8. Budge
    9. Perry
    10. Lendl
    11. McEnroe
    12. Agassi
    13. Connors
    14. Kramer
    15. Wilander

    Interesting list. Lot of well-known, popular names here. You might squeeze in Vines, Cochet, Hoad, Lacoste, or Emerson.

    I would rate Rosewall higher for sheer longevity, and Tilden higher for his six-year run.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2009
  15. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Interesting way to look at it! Now I gotta do some thinking.
     
  16. crabgrass

    crabgrass Rookie

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    Serena,king and seles was the area i had the most problems seperating,
    i positioned serena ahead of the other 2 mostly based on the fact her career's still going and by the time she's done will most likely have surpassed billie jean in majors and put some distance between herself and seles.
    If she retired right now i might have her still slightly behind king and virtually level with seles.....henin and venus is one that could go either way, again i'm factoring in that venus is still around and may add a couple more slams to her resume while henin is done and dusted.
     
  17. flying24

    flying24 Banned

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    Serena is almost certain to win atleast a couple more majors. I am not sure if Venus is a gaurantee. She is already getting older and is already past her prime IMO. She is hanging on on grass mostly since there are hardly any women left today who can play half a damn on it, other than her sister Serena. Her slam winning days are close to being extinct IMO and might be already.
     
  18. crabgrass

    crabgrass Rookie

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    Agree in terms of the top 4, could make a decent argument for all of them.
    steffi 22 majors, the golden slam, a record 377 weeks at no.1
    martina 18 majors, something like 170 carer titles, 342 weeks at no.1
    evert 18 majors, won about 90% of her career matches
    court a record 24 majors plus the grand slam in '70

    comes down to personal preference i guess,
    martina was probably the greatest grasscourter ever and evert most likely the greatest claycourter but taking into account all surfaces i'd say steffi was the greatest player overall.
     
  19. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    Ok I see where you are coming from now. It is possible Serena could pass King all time depending on how you look at things, I guess in the same way you see how she could add more slams, I take into account Serena's lack of real competition lately, especially at her last 2 major wins. Seles and King for me rate higher because they had more competition to deal with then Serena did. I mean Venus, Henin, Capriati and the rest of the current lot just don't rate with the cotemporaries of King and Seles in my opinion. But really, it is all how you look at things and what you value.

    As for Henin and Venus, yeah having the same number of slams makes it difficult. I guess I looked at it as a great variety in Henin's having 3 of the 4 slams plus more weeks at number, where you seemed to have taken having 5 of the most presitigious slam as making a bigger difference. I guess in terms of those 2 you can look at it either way. For me Henin just had a better career overall, whereas lately Venus has been largely relegated to Wimbledon which is the only slam I can see her adding another one of to her trophy case, and where she has had some luck in getting her 5.
     
  20. DMan

    DMan Professional

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    I am not sure if Capriati would rank in the top 15 of American players all-time. From this list, Capriati is #10 among Americans. And I think most experts would put Venus Williams (7 majors), Davenport (more weeks at #1 and better overall record) along with Althea Gibson, Louise Brough, Alice Marble, Doris Hart, and Shirley Fry (who all won more majors than Capriati) ahead of Jennifer.
     
  21. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    The 1991 slugfest she had with Jennifer at the US Open Semi was the hardest hitting woman's match of all time to that point. The look on Jennifer's face when she lost sticks out in my mind. She was never quite the same after that match.
     
  22. dataseviltwin

    dataseviltwin Rookie

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    ditto on thumbs down on Capriati. One one of her slams on crappy line calls. Biggest whiner (next to Hingis) EVER.
     
  23. thalivest

    thalivest Banned

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    Capriati really should only have 1 major title. The 2002 Australian Open title was a complete joke when Seles and Hingis were both playing much better tennis at that event but of course played each other in the semis than her amazing luck vs Hingis in the final (where anyway she should have already been defaulted by the end of the 2nd set for all her swearing and cussing repeatedly including to the umpire but amazingly never even got a warning). Of course Davenport and Serena (who both would have kicked her butt) were missing, and Venus was injured. Kim Clijsters also choked away the 1st set in the semis and should have won her place into the final over Jennifer in straight sets.

    She was lucky Seles and Davenport missed the 2001 French Open, that would have been Seles's time to win another major particularly when I could not imagine Capriati beating her on clay, and that would have been Davenport's best ever shot to win the French as she owned Jennifer even on clay. She was also lucky Kim choked in the final, and a young Justine who would have beaten her in the final (she even beat her on grass a month later) choked vs Kim in the semis.

    The 2001 Australian Open title was deserved, yeah she is lucky Davenport played her worst slam semi or final ever and Seles choked in the quarters, but she still legitimately beat a full field of everyone and won it. That should have been her only slam title though. Jennifer's record vs top 10 was .500 or worse in 2001-2002, she was overall owned by Venus and Davenport and was even with or trailing all of Seles, Henin, Mauresmo, Clijsters, Serena, and she only won 4 total tournaments those 2 years (including the 3 majors) yet still won 3 majors somehow? Probably the biggest fluke in history.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2009
  24. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    The Aussie Open is the least prestigious anyway as you see that the non greatest players of each generation seemed to win a title there or multiple titles. Up until pretty recently the Masters or Davis cup meant way more.
     
  25. JediMindTrick

    JediMindTrick Professional

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    So how come Borg is ahead of Sampras? And why is McEnroe ahead of Agassi? And then you have Federer at #7!? I mean, I love to see Nadal beat Federer as much as the next guy, but come on, Federer would crush everybody on that list, no?
     
  26. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    I that what being the GOAT is about: crushing?

    Fed keeps losing to some guy with less than half the number of majors than him. Someone with only six majors--a virtual Slam wimp.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2009
  27. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Borg is ahead of Sampras because Borg did a three-peat on going from really slow clay at RG to the fast grass of Wimbledon and beating the whole world in the process, and winning five Wimbledons in a row.

    It's not all about the mere quantity of majors.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2009
  28. Holdfast44ID

    Holdfast44ID Rookie

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    Best Player vs best career?

    It all comes down to opinion rather than records. This is especially true if you are trying to say who, in his prime vs anyone else in their prime, would win. Isn't that what what it really comes down to, rather than trying to use "records" to build a case? Yes, there are records, there are eras with different technologies in place, there are different talents, durations of success, etc. I think many of you probably also have different concepts of what "Best Player Ever" actually means. Best career? Greatest talent? Greatest longevity? Most titles? A combination of all of the above?

    Let's just say there was this fellow who came on the scene now, and he is, as far as talent goes, "The Best Player Ever." IE: He can walk on the court and beat Federer and Nadal and any other player on the pro tour 6-0, 6-0, 6-0 and does so in his first slam, winning every match without dropping a game. Everyone, even Nadal and Federer say this is the best player they have ever seen or played against. All the fans, commentators, old pros say "Wow. This guy is the best we have ever seen." Let's just say that no pro, past or present could beat this guy. The next week, the guy gets hit by a bus and his career is over. Could you agree that this guy was the best player ever, or does the fact that he doesn't have a record due to the career ended by injury? What does "Best" mean to you? Best career and best player to me are different things.

    Personally, if comparing records, I'd take into account the era of the players. I think crops of players are better in different eras. I seriously think today's top players in general are much better than those from previous eras. Yes, technology helps (although arguable when it comes to the racquet Feder and Sampras use, which is pretty much a 20+ year old design), just look at the old videos. Look at a Borg vs McEnroe Wimbledon final and compare that to the last Nadal vs Federer final. It's more than just the racquets... The game has evolved as playing styles and fitness have changed over time as well.

    I suppose, you can try to use past and present stats across multiple generations of pro players to try and arrive at your decision... I know, someone should just develop a computer program to do that (don't think that would work).
     
  29. anointedone

    anointedone Banned

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    Yes very fair to call someone with 6 majors at only 22 a virtual slam wimp. How many majors did Laver, Rosewall, Gonzales, Tilden, Federer, Sampras and a horde of other greats have at that age exactly. Yes Nadal wasnt able to start winning majors at only 15 or 16 so he would have more than a mere 6 at 22, so I guess he really sucks. :rolleyes:
     
  30. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    (I was being facetious.) Yea, I guess you're right.
     
  31. Leublu tennis

    Leublu tennis Legend

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    Borg ahead of Gonzalez, Tilden, and Budge?? Give me a break!
     
  32. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Me too.

    1. Laver
    2. Tilden
    3. Rosewall
    4. Budge
    5. Borg
    6. Gonzales
     
  33. jimbo333

    jimbo333 Hall of Fame

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    You're right mate, it's LAVER, without a doubt:)
     
  34. T1000

    T1000 Hall of Fame

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    donald young, nuff said
     
  35. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Did Tilden win everything for six years?

    Or was it just the biggies?
     
  36. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    1. Steffi Graf
    2. Monica Seles
    3. Martina Navratilova
    4. Chris Evert
    5. Serena Williams
    6. Margaret Court
    7. Billie Jean King
    8. Maureen Connoly
    9. Helen Wills Moody
    10. Suzanne Lenglen
    11. Evonne Goolagong
    12. Maria Bueno
    13. Justine Henin
    14. Venus Williams
    15. Aranxta Sanchez Vicario
     
  37. GameSampras

    GameSampras Banned

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    If Nadal were to retire today he would be no GOAT candidate. Not even a year of #1 yet. Only 6 slams while impressive at his age .. And only 22 years old with no proof of longevity yet
     
  38. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Agreed. Not in my top-ten at present. (Second-ten yes.)
     
  39. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

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    Several similar versions of this thread exist elsewhere and I repeat what I've already written about the men :

    I don't want to give a GOAT players' list because I've so much to study before giving that sort of list but I can give the following indications :
    In chronological order the best ever players are : William Charles Renshaw, Reginald Frank Doherty, Hugh Laurence (Lawrence) Doherty, William Tatem Tilden II, John Donald Budge, John Albert Kramer, Richard Alonso Gonzales, Kenneth Robert Rosewall, Rodney George Laver, Björn Rune Borg, Petros Sampras (I didn't know that Petros was his first name) and Roger Federer. At a lower level you have James Ernest Renshaw, Joshua Pim (very underrated), Malcolm Douglass Whitman (very underrated too), William Augustus Larned, Norman Everard Brookes, Anthony Frederick Wilding, William M. Johnston (if someone knows what "M." is in reality I would be glad) , Jean René Lacoste, Henri Jean Cochet, Henry Ellsworth Vines Jr., Frederick John Perry, Robert Larimore Riggs, James Scott Connors, John Patrick McEnroe Jr., Ivan Lendl, Andre Kirk Agassi. Below are the following great players : Wilfred Baddeley, Francisco Olegario Segura, Frank Arthur Sedgman, Lewis Alan Hoad (very overrated because many forget his innumerable injuries who prevented him from being better, the first quality of a sportsman is to be in good health), Mats Wilander, Stefan Bengt Edberg, Boris Franz Becker and Rafael Nadal Parera (he will possibly improve as his first Australian Open win can indicate). Finally John David Newcombe (a player who could have been very great but, as his autobiography shows, had many lacks of will : in 71-72 he wanted to retire and once again after Wimby 73 and he virtually retired after the 1975 Australian) and Ilie Năstase (another player who didn't fulfill his potential because he couldn't stand pressure : at Roland 70 and even 71 - Wimbledon 72, 73, 76 - Davis Cup 72 - US Open 73 - Masters 74, ... he could have won or at least made better).
    I've perhaps forgotten some players.

    All the lists in that forum completely underrate pre-WWI players (except HL Doherty) so they shouldn't be entitled
    "Greatest Tennis Player of All-Time" or "15 greatest players of all time" lists
    but "Greatest Tennis Player since the 1920's" lists.

    For instance George Whiteside Hillyard was adamant that R.F. Doherty when he wasn't too ill (it seemed that R.F. has never been in good health in his whole life) never lost once to his younger brother H.L., be it in official or private match. Hillyard even said that H.L. very seldom won a set against his elder. In fact R.F. owe 15 in each game to H.L.
    So though H.L. Doherty had the best tennis record of all the pre-WWI players, R.F. Doherty shouldn't be ignored in any GOAT discussion.
     
  40. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

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    Hello Hoodjem,
    of course Tilden didn't win everything but he won almost everything and not JUST the biggies.

    I gave some AndrewTas's and Elegos's files to my French collegue Jema974 who listed all Tilden's KNOWN titles in the French site of Wikipedia :
    http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_T..._en_Simple_.281918-1939.29_.28130_au_moins.29

    Here is what AndrewTas wrote in that forum (I don't remember where) about Tilden's record in 1924/1925 :

    Tilden's 24/25 record
    This is what I have for Tilden between 1924 and 25.
    1924
    RU Buffalo Indoor lost Alonso 64 16 61 36 64
    Won South Atlantic Augusta d. Rice 61 63 64
    Won Middle States Clay d. Alonso 36 62 57 64 64
    Won Orange Club d. Mathey 46 75 36 60 62
    Eastern Pennsylvania met Chapin in final
    Won Rhode Island State d. Niles 60 64 61
    Won New England d. Niles 63 61 62
    Won Great Lakes Buffalo d. Chapin 36 75 61 46 86
    Won Western Championships d. Hennessey 62 61 62
    Won US Clay Court d. Snodgrass 62 61 61
    Won Illinois State d. Kinsey 61 06 64 63
    Won Southern California d. Chapin
    Won US Champs d. Johnston 61 97 62
    Hot Springs Virginia won 2 matches but unknown finish
    1925
    Won Heights Casino d. Mathey 62 61 68 75
    Won Buffalo Indoor d. Rice 60 64 62
    Won Palm Beach d. Alonso 63 79 61 64
    Won Jacksonville (Southeastern Champs) d. Richards 75 61 64
    Won Greenbrier TC (White Sulphur) d. Hunter 61 62 63
    Won Pennsylvania-Eastern States d. Williams 06 62 64 16 64
    RU Orange Tennis Club lost Richards 46 61 75 64
    Won New England d. Alonso 64 64 61
    Won NY Metropolitan Clay Court d. Richards 63 63 64
    Won Eastern New York State Champs d. Richards
    Won Nassau Invitational d. Chapin 64 60 60
    Won Rhode Island d. Jones 62 63 63
    Won US Clay Court d. Lott 36 63 26 62 86
    Won Illinois State d. Johnston 64 63 97
    Won Chevy Chase d. Chapin 57 61 75 60
    Won US Champs d. Johnston 46 119 63 46 63
    He lost at the start of 1924 to Alonso and if he won the Eastern Pennsylvanian and Hot Springs tournaments in 1924 (which I think he would have but I haven't confirmed yet) then he won 19 tournaments in a row up to the Richards loss at Orange. With an average of 4 to 5 matches per tournament then he would have won at least 95 matches in a row. Both the Eastern Pennsylvanian and Hot Springs tournaments may have been unfinished though .
    In 1930 Tilden had a 11 tournament winning streak with one divided between losing to Borotra in January and Cochet at the French in June. He would have had at least a 50 match streak.

    Here are some other remarks about Tilden in particular about 1921:
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=2838457&postcount=37

    To complete my post just above, there are the most important Tilden's 1921 results compiled by Elegos7 below (the 1920 Davis Cup challenge round is absent though it was played from January 1 to 3 because it counted for the 1920 season):

    Jan 9 1921
    New Zealand Championships, Auckland NZL (G): Bill Tilden (USA) – Watty Washburn (USA) ?
    Jun 5 1921
    World Hard Court Championships, Paris FRA (C):
    1: Manuel Alonso (ESP) - Jean Samazeuilh (FRA) 6-0 6-4 5-7 6-1
    2: William Laurentz (FRA) - Manuel Alonso (ESP) 6-4 6-4 2-6 5-7 6-4
    Q: Erik Tegner (DEN) - William Laurentz (FRA) 6-4 6-4 6-3
    S: Bill Tilden (USA) - Nicolae Misu (ROM) 6-3 6-3 6-2
    S: Jean Washer (BEL) - Erik Tegner (DEN) 7-5 4-6 6-1 6-4
    F: Bill Tilden (USA) - Jean Washer (BEL) 6-3 6-3 6-3
    D: A. Gobert (FRA) / W. Laurentz (FRA)
    S: Molla Bjurstedt Mallory (USA) - Marguerite Broquedis Billout (FRA) 8-6 6-4
    S: Suzanne Lenglen (FRA) - Irene Bowder Peacock (SAF) 6-1 6-0
    F: Suzanne Lenglen (FRA) - Molla Bjurstedt Mallory (USA) 6-2 6-3
    D: G. Golding (FRA) / S. Lenglen (FRA)
    Jul 3 1921
    The Lawn Tennis Championships, Wimbledon BRI (G):
    Q: Zenzo Shimidzu (JPN) - Randolph Lycett (BRI-G) 6-3 9-11 3-6 6-2 10-8
    Q: Manuel Alonso (ESP) - Algie Kingscote (BRI-G) 6-1 6-3 2-6 6-2
    S: Brian Norton (SAF) - Frank Hunter (USA) 6-0 6-3 5-7 5-7 6-2
    S: Manuel Alonso (ESP) - Zenzo Shimidzu (JPN) 3-6 7-5 3-6 6-4 8-6
    F: Brian Norton (SAF) - Manuel Alonso (ESP) 5-7 4-6 7-5 6-3 6-3
    C: Bill Tilden (USA) - Brian Norton (SAF) 4-6 2-6 6-1 6-0 7-5
    D: R. Lycett (BRI-G) / M. Woosnam (BRI-G)
    2: Mabel Davey Clayton (GBR) - Kitty McKane (GBR) 6-1 2-6 6-3
    Q: Elizabeth Ryan (USA) - Molla Bjurstedt Mallory (USA) 0-6 6-4 6-4
    S: Elizabeth Ryan (USA) – Irene Bowder Peacock (SAF) 8-6 6-4
    F: Elizabeth Ryan (USA) - Phyllis Carr Satterthwaite (BRI-G) 6-1 6-0
    C: Suzanne Lenglen (FRA) - Elizabeth Ryan (USA) 6-2 6-0
    D: S. Lenglen (FRA) / E. Ryan (USA)
    Jul 24 1921
    Rhode Island State Championships, Providence USA (G):
    Vinnie Richards (USA) - Bill Tilden (USA) 6-1 6-2 1-6 6-0
    Marion Zinderstein Jessup (USA) – Anne Sheafe Cole (USA) 6-3 6-4
    Aug 28 1921
    US Doubles Championship, Boston USA (G):
    D: V. Richards (USA) / B. Tilden (USA) – W. Washburn (USA) / D. Williams (USA) 13-11 12-10 6-1
    Sep 4 1921
    Davis Cup Challenge Round, USA-JPN 5-0, New York USA (G):
    Bill Johnston (USA) - Ichiya Kumagae (JPN) 6-2 6-4 6-2
    Bill Tilden (USA) - Zenzo Shimidzu (JPN) 5-7 4-6 7-5 6-2 6-1
    D: W. Washburn (USA) / D. Williams (USA)
    (Bill Tilden (USA) - Ichiya Kumagae (JPN) 9-7 6-4 6-1)
    (Bill Johnston (USA) - Zenzo Shimidzu (JPN) 6-3 5-7 6-2 6-4)
    Sep 18 1921
    US Championships (gentlemen), Philadelphia USA (G):
    3: Bill Johnston (USA) - Vinnie Richards (USA) 2-6 3-6 6-3 9-7 6-2
    3: Bill Tilden (USA) - Zenzo Shimidzu (JPN) 6-4 6-4 6-1
    4: Bill Tilden (USA) - Bill Johnston (USA) 4-6 7-5 6-4 6-3
    4: James Anderson (AUS) – Dick Williams (USA) 6-3 6-3 2-6 4-6 6-4
    S: Bill Tilden (USA) - Willis Davis (USA) 10-8 6-2 6-1
    S: Wallace Johnson (USA) - James Anderson (AUS) 6-4 3-6 8-6 6-3
    F: Bill Tilden (USA) - Wallace Johnson (USA) 6-1 6-3 6-1
    Sep 25 1921
    East-West tennis matches, Chicago (G):
    James Anderson (AUS) - Bill Tilden (USA) 3-6 6-4 6-1 1-6 19-17
     
  41. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Messages:
    3,594
    I guess since I did a womens list I might as well do a mens list as well:

    1. Rod Laver
    2. Don Budge
    3. Pete Sampras
    4. Ken Rosewall
    5. Pancho Gonzales
    6. Bjorn Borg
    7. Roger Federer
    8. Bill Tilden
    9. Ivan Lendl
    10. John McEnroe
    11. Fred Perry
    12. Jack Kramer
    13. Henri Cochet
    14. Jimmy Connors
    15. Rafael Nadal

    Federer actually rates alot lower now for me than he would have even a year ago. Nadal's complete demolition of him while still in his prime diminishes him somewhat in my eyes. Sorry for those that feel I am being unfair, it is just how I feel.

    If any player curently playing will ever become the greatest mens player in history it will Be Nadal, not Federer IMO. I am not saying by any means I feel certain or even confident Nadal will reach this point. However he is the only current one who has a chance to ever do so I feel. Already too late for Federer realistically speaking it seems.
     
  42. GameSampras

    GameSampras Banned

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    I never would have thought we would be talking about Nadal being a possible GOAT candidate in the future. But he is certainly on the right track. No doubt about it. 6 slams by 22 years of age and now that his hardcourt game has developed and achieved something I never thought he would which was a HC slam, he is rapidly ascending the GOAT list, not to mention his complete and utter domination of Roger.

    That being said, will he keep it up? WHat happens once the wheels go? He doesnt really have a game to compensate for his court movement when it declines.
     
  43. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    I think it will come to down the decisions he makes in next couple years. Will he resist his well noted temptation and urge to play too many tournaments, even ones he doesnt need. Will he focus more on developing a bigger serve and a stronger volley. Of course he will never have one of the great serves or great volleys in tennis history, but if he can improve both enough to shorten some points and conserve energy it will help him greatly. Decisions such as these will go a long way to determining if he can.
     
  44. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

    Joined:
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    Location:
    L. Island, NY

    His Volleys looked darn good vs Murray the other day.
     
  45. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Nice list. I have most of the same names, but in a slightly different order.
    1. Laver
    2. Tilden
    3. Rosewall
    4. Budge
    5. Borg
    6. Gonzales
    7. Sampras
    8. Federer
    9. Lendl
    10. Perry
    11. Vines
    12. Connors
    13. Cochet
    14. Hoad
    15. Lacoste
     
  46. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Thanks for your list. It looks like you believe I underrated Tilden quite a bit though? Vines I thought had an amazing couple years then was overtaken quickly when his game got figured out, but maybe I am not as aware of what he did as a pro when he departed amateur competition.
     
  47. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    No, we just have different opinions. I rate him higher; you rate him lower. That's okay. Not an issue.
     
  48. Tennis_Maestro

    Tennis_Maestro Banned

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    Location:
    England London
    1. Lendl
    2. Federer
    3. Sampras
    4. Borg
    5. Laver
    5. Gonzales
    6. Connors
    7. Boris Becker
    8. John Mcenroe
    9. Aggasi
    10. Perry
    11. Vines
    12. Wilander
    13. Eddberg
    14. Nadal
    15. Lacoste
     
  49. clayman2000

    clayman2000 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
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    i hope you are either joking, or insanely bias to Lendl.

    How you have 4 guys ahead of Laver is beyond me. I love Boris Becker, but to place him above Mcenroe and Agassi is wrong. Nadal is better than both Edberg and Wilander

    No guys like Tilden, Budge, Rosewall, and as a side not on the whole thread, im surprised at the lack of Emerson
     
  50. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Ridiculousness personified. Lendl at #1?! Becker at #8!?!
     

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