1975 - does Orantes have a claim on the year end number 1?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by timnz, Feb 24, 2013.

  1. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    I know that Ashe won Wimbledon and the wct finals. But beyond that he didn't win any masters 1000 equivalents (only made 1 final in those tournaments) Orantes in contrast won roland garros. He won 3 masters 1000 equivalents. Overall he won 8 tournaments and reached 13 finals. Jimmy connors also won no masters 1000 equivalents and only made final of those tournaments.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
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  2. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    timnz,

    I think you mean Orantes won the 1975 US Open not Roland Garros which actually is more in Orantes' favor since I believe the US Open was stronger than the French that year. Problem I see with Orantes is that while he was very good on all surfaces, in 1975 he won tournaments only on clay.

    Yes I can see him with a claim for number one that year.
     
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  3. elegos7

    elegos7 New User

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    None of the tennis journalists considered Orantes No 1 for 1975, everyone went for Ashe.
    To decide which tournament can be considereded Masters equivalent is rather problematic in the 1970s.
     
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  4. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    He was the second best player, at pair with Borg.Had he won the 75 Masters instead of the 76 Masters, he could have a claim, but I think Ashe is still a step up.
     
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  5. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Oops

    Oops yes you are roght! Was just thinking about clay slam, forgetting that at that time forest hills was on cllay.
     
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  6. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    What happen to orantes at the french open?

    Why did he play was badly? Going out in the first round so quickly?
     
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  7. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Orantes did what at FO 75? I can´t remember.I know he lost to N grondella but was it in 75?
     
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  8. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    He lost in the first round to Antonio Zugarelli 6-3 6-0 .

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_French_Open_–_Men's_Singles

    For someone who reached 13 clay finals that year it is inexplicable. Was he injured?
     
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  9. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Orantes is one of the best players with most injuries, although I cannot recall if he was injuried coming up to RG 75.Zugarelli was a good cc specialist, he even reached the italian Open last match in 77.But, certainly, a straight sets lose with a baggel included is not normal.Orantes won, in 75, not just the USO, he also beat Connors at Indianapolis, Ashe at Boston...and lost the IO finals to Ramirez just a week or so before RG, which makes this early round lose more strange...
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2015
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  10. Xavier G

    Xavier G Semi-Pro

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    Orantes has a case for no.1 in 1975, had a good summer particularly, but I think Arthur Ashe just has a better case winning WCT Dallas and Wimbledon. Orantes and Arthur both had their best year in 1975. Ashe won on more varied surfaces than Orantes overall.
    It was a year no one person dominated.
    Jimbo got to three Slam finals and lost the lot. He was the most consistent player overall, but didn't win a major, so Ashe is no.1 for me.
     
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  11. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    On a subjective basis I think Connors was the best player in the world. If the top ten played a round robin on all surfaces I think Connors would have won easily.

    It's one of the those cases again in which the strongest player I believe wasn't number one. And he didn't deserve to be.
     
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  12. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Masters 1000 equivalents

    Not to take away from Ashe but other than the Wct finals and wimbledon, were his other wins in events of any consequence? Of the titles that are typically considered the masters 1000 equivalents - arthur didn't win any of them. In fact he only made one final of them. I consider these events to be masters 1000 equivalents that year. The are the top tournaments below the slams and season end finals level (wct finals and the masters)

    Washington
    Indianapolis
    Monte Carlo WCT
    Rome
    Toronto
    Boston
    Stockholm
    Philadelphia WCT
    Las Vegas
     
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  13. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    He was stuck in Paris traffic according to the newspaper reports and went into the match without warmup.
     
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  14. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    #2 is also where I'd put him. He and Ashe each won 8 (official) titles. One has Wimbledon, the other the USO. But Ashe also had Dallas.
     
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  15. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Is three Masters 1000 tournaments better than 1 WCT final?

    Is three Masters 1000 tournament equivalents better than 1 WCT final? If so Orantes should have the top position.
     
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  16. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Ashe won the entire WCT tour, with 4 titles, not including Dallas. And I've always understood that the WCT tour, in those days, featured the toughest competition.

    I haven't studied the fields of the various events in detail, but I've tracked how the top players did against the rest of the Top Ten throughout the year.

    Ashe: 13-9
    Orantes: 10-7
    Borg: 11-9
    Connors: 6-3

    The Top Ten competition that Ashe and Orantes faced was very similar, and in fact Ashe has more Top Ten wins than anyone else.

    So however the events may be defined in terms of masters equivalents, I would not say that Orantes faced tougher competition than Ashe. Their competition looks comparable.

    I agree with PC1, too, that it's a negative for Orantes to have won nothing outside of clay. Ashe's achievements were more diverse: 6 of his 8 titles were on carpet, another on hard and another on grass.
     
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  17. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    No Barcelona or Madrid? No Hamburg or MC? You should look at WCT tour as well
     
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  18. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Split year, but PC1 has a point with Connors who played 3 slam finals
    but lost them
    What regular tour titles Connors won in 75?
     
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  19. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Ashe did win his segment of the WCT tour, which were splitted into 3 groups. I think, Ashe played in his group with Borg and beat him most of the times. In late summer Ashe also won the LA event, which was big in those times. Connors won the important US clay court on har tru over Borg. I would rank Ashe over Connors with Orantes and Borg for third place.
     
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  20. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    This is good analysis. Though I would comment that ashe was wimning his non-dallas wct titles against only a 1/3 of the wct guys.
     
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  21. Xavier G

    Xavier G Semi-Pro

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    Connors lost all his big finals in 75, that's why I don't and can't give Jimbo the no.1 spot. Ashe just ahead of Orantes for me. I have Connors about no.3. Simple as that.
     
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  22. Vegito

    Vegito Professional

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    I heard about other player having a claim on the number 1 for 1975!
     
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  23. KG1965

    KG1965 Semi-Pro

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    Ashe number one 1975

    Most important title in 1975 are:
    Australian open, Newcombe - Connors
    Philadelphia, Riessen wins
    Tucson, Alexander wins
    Las Vegas, Tanner wins
    Dallas, Ashe
    Rome, Ramirez - Orantes
    Paris, Borg
    Wimbledon, Ashe - Connors
    North Conway, Connors
    Boston, Borg
    Indianapolis, Orantes
    Washington, Vilas
    Los Angeles, Ashe
    USO, Orantes - Connors
    San francisco, Ashe
    Stockholm, Panatta - Connors
    Masters GP, Nastase
    Wembley, Dibbs - Connors

    depends on the value attributed to the finals and the score of Salisbury, Denver and Hampton (Connors titles 75)

    For me:
    1) ASHE (San Francisco, Los Angeles, Wimbledon, Dallas, great titles)
    2) CONNORS (only North Conway, finalist 3 slam, Stockholm, Wembley)
    3) BORG
    4) ORANTES
    5) VILAS
     
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  24. KG1965

    KG1965 Semi-Pro

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    Connors placings 1975

    F Austalian open
    W Freeport (USLTA-Riordan, little)
    W Birmingham (USLTA-Riordan, little)
    W Salisbury (USLTA-Riordan, good)
    W Boca Raton (USLTA-Riordan, little)
    W Hampton (USLTA-Riordan, good)
    W Denver WCT, good tournament
    F New York (retire)
    S Chichester
    Q Nottingham
    F Wimbledon
    W North Conway
    Q South Orange
    F USO
    W Hamilton (little tournement)
    W Maui (little tournament)
    F Stockholm
    F Wembley

    18 placings
    9 wins (5 little titles)
    6 final (3 slam + 2 good)
    1 Semi
    2 Q
     
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  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Ramirez thumped him at the Davis Cup...
     
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  26. KG1965

    KG1965 Semi-Pro

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    That value attributed to finals

    The question is simple: if only count the titles the number one is ASHE, if also count the finals the number one is CONNORS.
     
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  27. Vegito

    Vegito Professional

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    A journalist that was saying some things he seems to know about the revision of the rankings said literally "The ATP eated 8 draws"(like they ignored 8 draws that they shouldn´t have ignored) I think he was talking only about 1975. Sometimes that journalist have bad memory-don´t explain well the things. I wish he would have given more details.

    I read something key was the bonus points, for beating another player located between positions 1-8, or 9 to 16, or 17 to 25. And there was a particular think that year: "duplication of the bonus points for winning two tournaments in a row" And probably other things that I don´t know.
     
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  28. KG1965

    KG1965 Semi-Pro

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    8 draws

    It's unfair not counting Masters WCT and Masters GP, because to Dallas was played the 4° titles and to Ny the 6° up to Madison Square Garden, after 3° (exclused W and US OPen).

    Counting Masters WCt Ashe (or Borg, or Vilas) becomes number one, may be.

    Ashe w Dallas + semi to NY
    Borg two finals
    Vilas a semi to NY.

    1977 closed with two Masters won by Connors.
     
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  29. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Curiously enough, in 1975 Orantes won the Masters...at doubles.This was his best ever doubles win.I think he would have gladly switched the 1975 Masters at doubles for the 1976 Masters at singles...
     
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  30. Vegito

    Vegito Professional

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    Something about 1975.

    I know Grand Prix points and ATP points were different things. But that makes possible that Ashe had more points than Vilas(winner of the Grand Prix)?

    1 Jimmy Connors (USA) 769 42.72
    2 Guillermo Vilas (ARG) 893 42.52
    3 Björn Borg (SWE) 728 38.32
    4 Arthur Ashe (USA) 905 37.71
    5 Manuel Orantes (ESP) 887 35.48
     
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  31. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Interesting, so Connor's only truly deserved the top spot in 3/5 of his official YE #1's?

    It's fascinating for me to read the replies in this thread about the tour back then. We need more threads like this one.
     
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  32. elegos7

    elegos7 New User

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    Ashe has played a lot of WCT events that were not part of the Grand Prix, but carried ATP computer points.
     
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  33. Vegito

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    In 1976 Orantes won the "double spanish crown", winning in consecutive weeks Madrid and Barcelona. Same did Borg in 1977.
     
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  34. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Nastase in 1973 too, I think
     
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  35. Vegito

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    Apart from the issue of revision of the ranking. Do you think Vilas would have a claim of being number one if he had won the US Open in 1975?
     
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  36. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    What about Monte Carlo and Toronto? They were big tournaments - both won by Orantes
     
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  37. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Indeed.

    He won the wrong Masters.Had he won it in 75 instead of 76 he could have co shared number one with Ashe.
     
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  38. KG1965

    KG1965 Semi-Pro

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    My final ranking 1975

    1977 was difficult interpretation, as well as 1978 and 1982, but 1975 was the most complex.
    The reason is that while the other three were top - three years , 1975 was the year of the scarce open and was then the top players not emerging shortened the ranking .

    The group is made up of top Connors, Borg, Vilas, Ashe and Orantes, who do not have a lot of distance either on the group of the top 10 !!

    No one was in a state of grace in 1975 !!
    The two aliens were not in shape , Connors was taken from challenge matches , and especially by the case against ATP and the previous disqualification , Borg was not fully blossomed .

    To start making a serious analysis must be aware that the two Masters 8draws be excluded (unfairly in my opinion), the ATP finals lost to have a large value (for me unjustly) and that the majors have a few points most of the other major tournaments and tournaments WCT and IPA (Riordan) gave, perhaps, a few points.

    From my method exclude tournaments Philadelphia, Tucson and Las Vegas (all top 10) but the final sees two extra top 5 finalists, then no impact on the allocation of number 1.
    I exclude, for the time, being the two Masters.

    Usually divide the year into four "seasons": 1) indoor, 2) europe, 3) American summer 4) tournaments year-end.

    Up to Wimbledon apart from the majors in 1975 happened just as I try to divide the year into three parts

    It happened just because Connors prepared to challenge two brands of Las Vegas against Laver and Newcombe and participated in tournaments IPA / easy), who won the tournament the best is a good Denver WCT (but as we read on the internet was only in preparation for the challenge match against Newk !!)
    Borg and Ashe they divided the WCT circuit.
    Orantes and Vilas did not win nothing sensational.

    Most important title in 1975 are:
    Part 1) - The worst first half of the open era
    Australian open, Newcombe - Connors
    Rome, Ramirez - Orantes
    Paris, Borg - Vilas
    Wimbledon, Ashe - Connors
    1) Ashe 1W
    2) Borg 1W
    3) Connors 2F
    4) Vilas 1F
    5) Orantes 1F


    Part 2) - Summer Americana
    The summer tournaments have always proved decisive for the ranking but perhaps never been as interesting in 1975.
    North Conway, Connors
    Louisville, Vilas
    Boston, Borg
    Indianapolis Orantes - Ashe
    Washington, Vilas
    Canada, Orantes
    USO, Orantes - Connors

    At this point, for me,
    1) Orantes 3W + 1F
    2) Vilas 2w + 1F
    3) Borg 2W
    4) Connors 1W + 3F
    5) Ashe 1W + 1F

    Part 3) - The comeback of Ashe
    Los Angeles, Ashe
    San Francisco, Ashe
    Buenos Aries - Vilas
    Stockholm, Panatta - Connors
    Wembley, Dibbs - Connors

    1) Orantes 3W + 1F
    1) Ashe 3W + 1F
    3) Vilas 3w + 1F
    4) Borg 2W
    5) Connors 1W + 5F

    My ranking is even closer, as opposed to ATP because ATP ranking points to the finalists by many losers.

    The last part of the argument concerns the two Masters:
    Masters WCT, Ashe - Borg
    Masters GP, Nastase - Borg


    1) Ashe 4W + 1F
    2) Orantes 3W + 1F
    3) Vilas 3w + 1F
    4) Borg 2W + 2F
    5) Connors 1W + 5F

    Ashe to me first with a slight margin on the group.
    Then all close and conscious of the fact that Connors could not be the first but missed the finals are more weighed I put 3rd

    My ranking is then:
    1) ASHE
    2) ORANTES
    3) CONNORS
    4) BORG
    5) VILAS

    Last consideration: my ranking has nothing to do with the actual strength of 5. The best Connors was clearly that for a number of circumstances lost primacy.
    1) CONNORS
    2) ASHE
    3) BORG
    4) Orantes
    5) VILAS

    But that does not matter. Count the results not being the best !!! So first Ashe.
     
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  39. KG1965

    KG1965 Semi-Pro

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    Work in progress

    There is an error on my post, a major mistake: Vilas is also finalist to S. Francisco.

    So ...

    Part 3) - The comeback of Ashe
    Los Angeles, Ashe
    San Francisco, Ashe - VILAS
    Buenos Aries - Vilas
    Stockholm, Panatta - Connors
    Wembley, Dibbs - Connors


    1) Vilas 3w + 2F
    2) Orantes 3W + 1F
    2) Ashe 3W + 1F
    4) Borg 2W
    5) Connors 1W + 5F

    My ranking is even closer, as opposed to ATP Because ATP ranking points to the finalists by many losers.

    The last part of the argument Concerns the two Masters:
    Masters WCT, Ashe - Borg
    Masters GP, Nastase - Borg


    1) Ashe 4W + 1F
    2) Vilas 3w + 2F
    3) Orantes 3W + 1F
    4) Borg 2W + 2F
    5) Connors 1W + 5F

    Ashe to me first with a slight margin on the group.
    Then to close and conscious of the fact Connors That could not be the first but missed the finals are weighed Opinions more I put 3rd

    Another exception to Vilas, who is 2nd in the ATP rankings Because it has done well in the non -Major tournaments, but I prefer the Orantes (it felt stronger in Argentina's 75 and won the US Open) and Connors (Because not lost many finals allow him to claim the number one, but I think the podium is).

    My ranking is then:
    1) ASHE
    2) Orantes
    3) CONNORS
    4) VILAS
    5) BORG

    Last consideration: my ranking has nothing to do with the actual strength of 5. The best Connors Clearly That was for a number of Circumstances lost primacy.
    1) CONNORS
    2) ASHE
    3) BORG
    4) Orantes
    5) VILAS

    But That does not matter. Count the results not being the best !!! So first Ashe.
     
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