1993 Wimbledon Sampras vs Becker (SF) and Courier (F) stats

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by slice serve ace, Sep 17, 2011.

  1. slice serve ace

    slice serve ace Rookie

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    Sampras - Becker 7-6, 6-4, 6-4

    1st serve %

    sampras 61 ( 62, 58, 64 )
    becker...51 ( 60, 28, 64 )

    after making first 2 1st serves in the 2nd set, becker's 1st serve pct was healthy 61 %. than he missed 15 1st serves in a row:shock:
    that is the longest streak of missed 1st serves i ever saw (so far) ; mcenroe " boris is serving at what, 15 pct this set?...no, wait, it's 12.5 pct...i gave him too much credit there" :)
    after that, becker's pct to the end of the match was again 61 %. so he basically served 61 % minus that black hole of 15 missed serves

    one more thing - becker said before the match that sampras serves big, but not as big as stich, whom he played in qf...agassi basically said the same before their qf match, comparing sampras to krajicek (agassi beat krajicek round earlier)

    1st serve pts won %

    sampras 84 ( 96, 77, 78 )
    becker...92 ( 88, 100, 94)

    2nd serve pts won %

    sampras 60 ( 57, 50, 80 )
    becker...45 ( 47, 48, 33 )

    service pts won %

    sampras 75 ( 81, 66, 79 )
    becker...69 ( 71, 62, 72 )

    aces

    sampras 13 ( 7, 4, 2 )
    becker...14 ( 4, 4, 6 )

    double faults

    sampras 6 ( 2, 3, 1 )
    becker...12 ( 4, 5, 3 )

    this really hurt becker. he blamed it on his tired legs, after his epic match vs stich

    winners

    sampras 49 ( 20, 13, 16 ), 8 backhand winners
    becker...34 ( 13, 10, 11 )

    unreturned serves

    sampras 43 ( 20, 13, 10 )
    becker...43 ( 18, 10, 15 )

    unreturned serves %

    sampras 42 ( 54, 34, 36 )
    becker...45 ( 43, 34, 60 )

    break points

    sampras 2/4 ( 0/1, 1/2, 1/1 )
    becker...0/6 ( 0/0, 0/4, 0/2 )

    points won

    sampras 107 ( 42, 36, 29 )
    becker...92 ( 37, 31, 24 )
     
    #1
  2. slice serve ace

    slice serve ace Rookie

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    Sampras - Courier 7-6, 7-6, 3-6, 6-3

    Excellent match. Courier really couldn't played any better on grass. After great first 2 sets, Sampras looked to be out of fuel, but he found second wind, which will become one of his trademarks. Sampras groundgame on grass, which he rarely had opportunities to show, other than hitting returns and passing shots, was on display vs baseliner Courier, just as it was vs Agassi. Beautiful variety, cutting backhand slices, short or deep, mixed with topspin backhands and sharp penetrating forehands. Sampras enjoyed the bounce on the grass, and moved with cat-like effortlessnes. Really great, great player, a joy to watch.

    1st serve %

    sampras 62 ( 70, 50, 59, 67 )
    courier...54 ( 49, 54, 58, 59 )

    cbs, or whatever tv was it, showed sampras 1st serve pct for the tournament - it was 62 % untill the final. he had the same pct in the final, so it was his pct for the entire tournament

    1st serve pts won %

    sampras 82 ( 85, 100, 62, 78 )
    courier...77 ( 72, 78, 80, 77 )

    sampras won at one point 32 1st serve points in a row. that is the second longest streak that i know of. it ended with the 1st point on sampras serve in the 3rd set

    2nd serve pts won %

    sampras 67 ( 64, 76, 56, 67 )
    courier...58 ( 74, 57, 45, 44 )

    courier after the match "...i faced 2 first serves today..."

    service pts won %

    sampras 77 ( 78, 88, 59, 74 )
    courier...68 ( 73, 68, 65, 64 )

    aces

    sampras 22 ( 6, 8, 5, 3 ), 3 on a second serve
    courier...9 ( 2, 0, 5, 2 )

    double faults

    sampras 6 ( 2, 1, 2, 1 )
    courier...6 ( 4, 0, 2, 0 )

    winners

    sampras 53 ( 17, 18, 10, 8 )
    courier...37 ( 11, 12, 11, 3 )

    unreturned serves

    sampras 61 ( 18, 23, 8, 12 )
    courier...41 ( 11, 13, 11, 6 )

    unreturned serves %

    sampras 51 ( 49, 68, 36, 44 )
    courier...30 ( 30, 26, 42, 27 )

    sampras 51 %, but 68 % in a second set! and he almost lost it...

    break points

    sampras 2/5 ( 0/0, 0/2, 1/1, 1/2 )
    courier...2/2 ( 0/0, 0/0, 2/2, 0/0 )

    points won

    sampras 135 ( 39, 46, 22, 28 )
    courier...120 ( 35, 38, 26, 21 )
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2011
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  3. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Here's a boxscore published in The Independent (London).

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    MEN'S FINAL STATISTICS
    Sampras won 7-6, 7-6, 3-6, 6-3, in 2hr 58min.
    SAMPRAS COURIER
    62 per cent First serve in 54 per cent
    22 Aces 9
    6 Double faults 6
    77 per cent Points won on serve 68 per cent
    123mph 1st serve speed (max) 118mph
    110mph 1st serve speed (ave) 105mph
    32/55 Points won at net 19/32
    34/82 Points won at baseline 52/105

    53 per cent Total points won 47 per cent
    19/28 Game points won 19/29
    2/5 Break points won 2/2
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I never understood this boxscore before but now it adds up.

    Sampras wins 66 points either at net or at baseline. He also won 6 points from Courier's double-faults, and according to Slice Serve Ace he had 61 unreturned serves including aces. So in total that leaves him winning 133 points, very close to Slice Serve Ace's total of 135.

    Courier has 71 at net or baseline, 6 from Pete's doubles, and 41 unreturned serves: 118 in total, very close to SSA's total of 120.

    In any case the ATP has Sampras leading 163-135 in total points, but they've counted the aces and double-faults twice. If those are only counted once then Sampras leads by 135 to 120, in agreement with SSA's numbers.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2013
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  4. Devilito

    Devilito Hall of Fame

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    92 and 93 Wimbledons were awesome. Downhill after that point. Agassi in 92 and Courier in 93 made them great to watch
     
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  5. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Hard to believe his serve went so far off the rails. Makes his 100% winning rate on 1st serve in that set deceptive, since there were probably just a handful of good first serves.

    Becker missed 9 straight even when he beat Agassi in '95.

    Borg and Lendl each missed 10 in a row in USO finals, Borg in '80, Lendl in '88.

    As you know he never broke Sampras at Wimbledon. In '95 he didn't even earn a break point, and in '97 he went 0-for-3.

    (And talking about bad serving, NBC had him serving at 27% in the first set of that match.)

    Interesting! I haven't seen the match in forever, but I still remember how well Courier played, and how Sampras was just better in the end -- though he had to produce some very fine tennis to beat him.

    Incredible to think that 68% of his serves did not come back and he came so close to losing the set (had to win the tiebreak 8-6).
     
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  6. Carsomyr

    Carsomyr Hall of Fame

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    If you're talking about in terms of clashes of style, the Rafter-Agassi matches in 2000 and 2001 are classics, better than the Sampras-Agassi and Agassi-Ivanisevic matches in my opinion.
     
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  7. Devilito

    Devilito Hall of Fame

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    i was referring to the decline of the entertainment value of Wimbledon in the 90s after those years. 2000-2001 is almost another era in terms of following tennis. I wasn't trying to say from 93 until the present
     
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  8. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    I actually disagree completely, because I like the big game. But if it's baseliners you like, baseliners made it through to at least the quarters in every year: Agassi, Kiefer, Chang, Washington etc.

    I do think the 93 Wimbledon had a spectacular collection of talent at the end....maybe the most formidable and exciting quarters/16 I remember ever...
     
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  9. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    According to the boxscore, Courier is only 5 mph behind Sampras on first serve (both maximum speed and average).
     
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  10. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    I was impressed that Jmac noticed this during the telecast...when Enberg asked him a typically stupid Enberg question eg. why would he be double faulting? Jmac opined something along the lines of: he doesn't seem to be getting up quite as well on the serve, maybe his legs are tired....
     
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  11. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    I found one more -- Sampras missed 15 in a row against Chesnokov in Davis Cup.

    It started at 3-all in the first set (which Sampras went on to lose 6-3) and ended in his opening service game of the second set.
     
    #11
  12. slice serve ace

    slice serve ace Rookie

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    yes, only 8 points. that is why it is always best to see total service pts percentage


    courier played suprising amount of serve&volley points on his 2nd serve. i didn't count, but it must have been around 8, maybe 10 times he did that. he was very unpredictable with it, and succesful too. won him some important points. he, or his coach, must have taken notes how pete's slice return troubled agassi, so he decided to suprise him with this tactic. he would get in real close and just punch away sliced return. i think sampras read him only twice or so, and returned with topspin for a winner.

    lost only 4 points on serve the entire set. that's the beauty of tennis scoring sistem



    thanks for that. there must be a reason why sampras served at such low percentage in 1995. his year pct must have been 8-10 % less than he normally does. his service motion and ball toss look the same as always. so one must wonder, what was the reason, balls, strings?
     
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  13. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    my winner counts

    sampras 54(18, 18, 10, 8)
    courier 38(11, 12, 11, 4)

    unreturned serves counts

    sampras 61(18, 23, 8, 12)
    coourier 41(11, 13, 11, 6)

    net stats

    67 of 97 for Sampras(69%)
    25 of 38 for Courier(66%)
    13 of 21 for Courier on S&V pts
     
    #13
  14. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    For the semifinal:

    Sampras made his first serve on 4 of 6 break points.

    Becker made no first serves on the 4 break points he faced, double-faulting on two of them.

    Each man made 4 of 6 first serves in the tiebreak.

    Prior to the semis Becker had 40 double-faults, Sampras 28 (per NBC).
     
    #14
  15. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Just wondering if this had anything to do with his coach being ill that year.
     
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  16. Laurie

    Laurie Professional

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    one more thing - becker said before the match that sampras serves big, but not as big as stich, whom he played in qf...agassi basically said the same before their qf match, comparing sampras to krajicek (agassi beat krajicek round earlier)

    Thanks for the interesting stats. Well to me that statement show two things:

    1. They could have been talking in terms of that particular tournament and the inflamed shoulder Sampras was suffering, he was getting a lot of treatment throughout that tournament and particularly against Agassi in the quarterfinal when the trainer came on a couple of times to administer treatment. The BBC commentators pointed out Sampras' injury right from the start of the match ( I think it was John Barrett and Bill Threllfall) that Sampras was serving around 100 to 110 mph where usually he would serve well over between 120 and 130 mph (unless he took the pace off to go wide to forehand on the deuce court).

    2. Even with Sampras' shoulder trouble, he outplayed Agassi for most of the match, winning the 1st two sets 6-2 6-2, and despite Agassi rallying won the 5th set 6-4 after 3 successive breaks. Then he really took care of Becker. So it shows that serving hard is not enough to beat the best players in the world, Sampras backed up his serve with good movement, good net play and good groundstrokes, that's why he won a lot more tournaments than other attacking players with big serves. That is often overlooked because a lot of people can only focus on one thing, his serve, and not acknowledge his other attributes. Not everyone but enough people to cause lots of discussions and arguments on internet forums!
     
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  17. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Just for reference, Stich served a 128 mph serve during his five-set loss to Becker in the quarterfinals. The next day it was reported in the press as the fastest serve of the tournament thus far.
     
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  18. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    In the second set of his quarterfinal with Stich, Becker was still at 100% on 1st serve points, according to a graphic onscreen, so I counted them: he won his first 24.

    Do you have any high numbers for Goran in this stat? I counted a streak of 22 against Agassi in their Wimbledon final but I don't have any others for him. What about in the '95 semi when he had that long service streak against Sampras, do you know what he did on 1st serve points?
     
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  19. slice serve ace

    slice serve ace Rookie

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    you are correct here, i posted changes in the second post
     
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  20. slice serve ace

    slice serve ace Rookie

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    i have around 10 or so goran's matches that i did the stats for, but that was few years back and i didn't pay much attention to anything other than my standard stats. i will check these matches again, maybe there are some big streaks. for example, in 1996 hannover match against sampras he was 54/57 on first serve points.
    but that doesn't guarantee uninterrupted streak. last match of his i did few months ago, vs martin in grand slam cup, he was 54/58, but the streaks would end after 15-20 points, and start again
     
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  21. slice serve ace

    slice serve ace Rookie

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    that's it, yes. sampras name has become synonym for the serve, not without the reason, but he had many other qualities. i often borrow my friends my dvds with his matches, and they are usually stunned how well he plays off the ground and how potent his return game is. serve, volley, they expect that. the usual comment is "wow, he plays so much like federer".

    i remember even my picture of him was distorted before i started getting lots of his matches, from all parts of his career. for example, i was stunned to see that he doesn't S&V on his 2nd serve almost at all, despite the quallity of it, even on a fast indoor carpets (before he changed style in his last years). also, that he rarely chip&charges, and doesn't really press the net as much as i remembered etc, etc
     
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  22. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    I wouldn't be surprised if Goran topped this category. However Sampras did have the better overall game and this stat is not just about the serve, but also about how well you back it up.

    Another one: Becker/Sampras '96 Hannover final, I got Becker's service stats for the first two sets. He had a streak of 22 in there, and had lost only 2 points on 1st serve after two sets were played.
     
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  23. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Another: Lendl won 26 straight against McEnroe during the 1985 USO final.

    These you may have seen in other threads:

    27 by Borg (1979 Wimbledon, Connors)
    26 by Agassi (1995 AO, Rafter)
     
    #23
  24. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    I was wondering if you could give the numbers behind these percentages, for these two matches, ie, Sampras won x of y points on first serve, etc. It would be great to have a look at the totals and do more analysis.

    I don't mean broken down by set, just looking for the full-match totals. Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2011
    #24
  25. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    my stats

    Sampras
    74-120(61%)
    1st serve pts 62-74(84%)
    2nd serve pts 31-46(67%)

    Courier
    74-136(54%)
    1st serve pts 60-74(81%)
    2nd serve pts 31-62(50%)
     
    #25
  26. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    I was checking out the end of the '96 USO final, and Mary Carillo was saying that Chang had not lost a point on first serve throughout the whole third set (which ended 7-6). So I did a quick check of Chang's games and it came out to 19 straight points, including one at the end of the second set. It was an unbroken streak; he won his last 19 points on first serve.

    It's not the longest streak but perhaps a little surprising coming from Chang.

    His overall success on first serve was actually higher than Pete's: 86% to 85%, according to a boxscore for the match. Again perhaps a little surprising.

    (The ATP has Chang way up at 89%, but that's incorrect because they've counted the aces twice in that category.)

    BTW thanks Moose for your numbers on Sampras-Courier; looking forward to more numbers on Pete's semi.
     
    #26
  27. Tagg

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    becker just could not seem to get the better of sampras

    only time i remember him doing it on a major scale was the year end championships at hamburg in 1996

    from the matches that i remember at the time, and re-watching most of their matches on youtube...

    sampras moves better, no doubt

    he volleys better, his first serve % is higher, the 2nd serve % is higher, 2nd is also faster

    forehand is better on the run, slice is better

    becker has (had?) the better backhand i think

    basically, he does everything slightly better than becker. that's why their matches turned out the way they did

    i believe becker and sampras both alluded to this themselves
     
    #27
  28. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    MEN'S FINAL STATISTICS
    Sampras won 7-6, 7-6, 3-6, 6-3, in 2hr 58min.
    SAMPRAS COURIER
    62 per cent First serve in 54 per cent
    22 Aces 9
    6 Double faults 6
    77 per cent Points won on serve 68 per cent
    123mph 1st serve speed (max) 118mph
    110mph 1st serve speed (ave) 105mph
    32/55 Points won at net 19/32
    34/82 Points won at baseline 52/105

    53 per cent Total points won 47 per cent
    19/28 Game points won 19/29
    2/5 Break points won 2/2
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The net points in this boxscore do not include any unreturned serves, which was (and may still be) typical of how net points are judged are Wimbledon. As a rule unreturned serves are counted as service winners rather than as net points, even though a player coming in directly behind his serve is applying pressure on his opponent to make a good return. That pressure often results in a return error; but the point is nevertheless tabulated as a service winner rather than as a net point.

    Sampras' main way of getting to net was behind his serve, so this method depresses his net numbers significantly. In the boxscore he is reported to approach the net 55 times compared to Courier's 32, but the difference between the two men was far greater. Sampras came in on every first and second serve (he served 120 points), and he came in quite a bit in Courier's service games. Courier, per Moose, SV'd only 21 times, and he could not have made it to net very much or at all in Pete's service games since Pete was SVing on every point.

    This is how we know that the unreturned serves have been entirely excluded from the net stats:

    The bolded lines in the boxscore show each man playing 137 points "at net" or "at baseline." If you add these 137 points to the 12 double-faults served in the match, and you add the 102 unreturned serves (61 by Sampras, 41 by Courier) counted by SSA and Moose, you end up with 251 points played in the match -- very close to the 255 points counted by SSA.

    So we know that aces, double-faults and all other unreturned serves were not regarded as net points or as baseline points.

    Moose's net numbers make more sense. Obviously he counted net points that began with FH or BH approaches. But he also counted points that ended in unreturned serves -- with the exception of aces and any serves that he judged the receiver to have no chance to return (ie, service winners). Obviously, with aces or with the latter kind of serves, there is nothing the receiver can do and the server's movement toward net has nothing to do with winning the point.

    Moose's net stats:
    67 of 97 for Sampras (69%)
    25 of 38 for Courier (66%)

    Incidentally we know that certain American TV networks like NBC, at least, have counted net stats for Wimbledon matches the way Moose and I have done.
     
    #28
  29. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    By my count:

    Sampras made 5 of 12 first serves in the tiebreaks (42%). By tiebreak:

    4 of 5 (no mini-breaks of any kind)
    1 of 7

    Courier made 5 of 12 first serves in the tiebreaks (42%). By tiebreak:

    2 of 5 (he won 1 of the 2), missing his last three
    3 of 7 (he won all 3)

    In that second-set tiebreak Sampras played only one point on first serve, and won it, but he got by almost entirely on second serve, winning 5 of 6 such points. Three of his second serves were unreturned, and one was an ace.

    So Sampras lost only 1 service point in that tiebreak, and it was just enough, since Courier lost two -- both on second serves.

    It was a close match in one sense: each man won 21 service games. However Sampras took the two tiebreaks.
     
    #29
  30. tembolo1284

    tembolo1284 New User

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    Good lord I love this thread! Keep it coming everyone!
     
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  31. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Sampras was the better player in this match, but i remember that he had a dose of luck too. In the second set tiebreak at set point against him, he hit a forehand volley quite fat, it looked to go over the baseline, but no call came. Maybe it scratched the baseline by an inch. Sampras looked tired and spent since the third set, seemd to fall over when he was serving (not the only time in his matches with Courier), but i still don't know, if he played possum.
     
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