2012 Year End Ratings

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by SuperLotto, Oct 28, 2011.

  1. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    Yes, the way the algorithm works, where you start the year is important, particularly if you play doubles. If if you were a new or lower rated 4.0 in 2010, your great 2011 season will have moved you to the upper range of a 4.0 and in 2012, you may have improved less than 2011 but enough to cross the threshold.
     
  2. colowhisper

    colowhisper Semi-Pro

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    How to see all the players in district or section?

     
  3. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Go to League Advanced search. You drill down and then you can view, for example, the ratings of all women who played in your section/district/league in 2012.
     
  4. Mike Y

    Mike Y Rookie

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    As expected, my rating did not change. From doing a quick scan, I don't see many rating changes at any level in my area, even for people who really deserved to get bumped up. 3 of my opponents in league play who beat me did get bumped up to 5.0, and deservedly so, so that is good for me.
     
  5. downs_chris

    downs_chris Professional

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    it looks like a lot of 4.0s got bumped up....
     
  6. shogun90

    shogun90 Rookie

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    7 of the 10 members of our Nationals team got bumped up to 3.5.
     
  7. TahoeTennis

    TahoeTennis Professional

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    I got bumped from 4.0 to 4.5 here in Norcal, now maybe I can take a game of McEnroe ;)

    Anyone in the Reno area want to hit?
     
  8. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    Really? Lots of ladies got moved up down here. Enough so that I already have emails for teams! My 6.5 womens combo is now almost entirely 7.5. 7.5 mixed combo is now almost entirely 8.5. Lots of movement for both men and women.
     
  9. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    what happened ? did you go undefeated ? and beat up on some 4.5 benchmark players ?
     
  10. bobbything

    bobbything New User

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    I used the drill down search feature, however when I looked up ratings from 2009, 2010, and 2011, there were players listed on there with their current rating, and not the year end rating for that particular year.

    For instance, one of my teammates is a 5.0 now. But back in 2010 and 2011, he was a 4.5. But it listed him as a 5.0 for both those years.

    Much like the rating system, their database seems to be screwed up.
     
  11. Alchemy-Z

    Alchemy-Z Hall of Fame

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    If you make it to 4.5 in my section you have played yourself out of the sport we now have 14 people in 4.5 lol
     
  12. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    We are not that bad here .... in my district we have about 50 4.5 men ... When you add in the aspiring 4.0's that gave us enough men to field 5 teams. But there are definitely reduced opportunities for 4.5s in league play.
     
  13. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    I tried this and it seems that tennislink only shows the NTRP rating of the players at the time they were playing in that league, not their current year-end rating.
     
  14. goober

    goober Legend

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    you actually need to do this in find a rating advanced search not league advanced search.
     
  15. bobbything

    bobbything New User

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    That's how it is with 5.0's here in my area. There are a relatively large number of 5.0's, but nobody plays in the 5.0 league. There are two teams. That's it.

    4.5 is probably the most well-represented for us. However, that consists of about 50% of the people being bumped up 4.0's from the year prior. The USTA seems to be trying to get people in our area to play 5.0 by bumping up 4.5's at a rapid rate.

    It's not working.
     
  16. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    USTA would be wise to make 5.0+ leagues 2/3 format like the rest and that would get more players, 1/2 format just does nothing to get interest, now you add in 5.5 players to the league and see participation going further down.
     
  17. Playtennis

    Playtennis New User

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    I got bumped down- 4.0 to 3.5 which makes no sense but it is what it is. My record had many many close matches. So my question is this..... Whats the quickest way to get bumped back up? Should i play 3.5 at all or play 4.0?
     
  18. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    If your only goal is to be a 4.0 then playing 4.0 exclusively likely will move you back up faster. However, embrace 3.5 .... figure out who the best 3.5 team is in your district and offer up your services. Enjoy being the best player at your level rather than being a weaker player at the next level.
     
  19. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    I commend you on your desire to get back up to 4.0 rather than legally sandbag at 3.5 :)

    Best way to get bumped up:
    1. Play only 4.0
    2. Play singles rather than doubles (assuming you are no less competitive at singles)
     
  20. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    It obviously depends on the specific opponents/partners and scores of matches, but there is in theory more opportunity to move back up by playing up at 4.0. You should have stronger competition which gives you the opportunity, but losing badly at 4.0 may be worse than winning at 3.5, so YMMV.
     
  21. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Thanks goober, that was much easier. I checked the winter league players in my area at my level (3.5) and fwiw there were 13 (7.2%) who were bumped down to 3.0, 146 (80.6%) who stayed at 3.5, and 22 (12.2%) who were bumped up (or in one case that I know of, DQed) to 4.0.
     
  22. Playtennis

    Playtennis New User

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    Thanks! I DEF don't want to stay 3.5 so I want to move as fast as possible. Is there any mid year movement possibility? I thought playing 3.5 as opposed ro 4.0 would be bad. Im gonna try and play just singles at 4.0.
     
  23. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    Would you then recommend to anyone that wants to be a level higher than they are to play at that level the following year?

    For instance, i really wanted to be bumped up to 3.5 this year, but didn't. Should I avoid 3.0 next year and only play 3.5?

    Also, what if I choose to play 3.5 and get my butt handed to me? Should I also play 3.0 just to keep some wins under my belt?

    Thanks
     
  24. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    This is the rub .... if you were outstanding compared to your 3.0 peers you likely would have been bumped. Since you likely are not outstanding compared to your peers, a team at the 3.5 level most likely wont give you a lot matches.

    With the way a running average (like the USTA algorithm) works you need to have many good matches against good opponents to get the bump. So are 3 competitive matches at 3.5 better than beating up on 10 opponents at 3.0? Maybe, maybe not.

    So if your only goal is to get a bump find a 3.5 team that will put you on line 1 singles every match next season. But I suspect a more reasonable approach would be to work on your game, play 3.0 and hope to pick up a couple matches on a 3.5 team that needs some singles help.
     
  25. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    In general, yes, assuming you can get a reasonable number of matches at the higher level - obviously, chances of moving up are not good if you only get to play 1 or 2 matches.

    But assuming a similar number of matches, it comes down to what DNTRP delta you can achieve/expect per match (the incremental dynamic rating increase/decrease you get following each match).

    If you are a top 3.5 playing 3.5, you are *expected* to beat most other 3.5s. USTA says 6-1 or even 6-0 sets are to be expected when a person at top of level plays a person at bottom of level. So basically, as a top 3.5, you don't get much incremental rating increase by beating up on weaker 3.5s, or even convincingly beating mid-level 3.5s - because that's already expected of you. You can get some increases by beating other top level 3.5s, but who's to say how many of those you are going to face. That's why you sometimes see players with great records and convincing wins still not get bumped up - because the wins did not come against opponents with high-enough dynamic ratings.

    On the other hand, when you play up, you are expected to get killed. So any scores that are better than a complete beat-down are going to increase your dynamic rating. So for example if you are a 3.5 playing average 4.0s, and you lose all your matches 3 & 3, that is likely to be enough to get you bumped up... because that would give you results similar to what would be expected of a low-level 4.0 vs mid-level 4.0s. And even against higher-level 4.0s, you can generally scrape together a few games (some stronger players will lose focus once it's clear they are going to win).

    Purely anecdotal, but in my experience the majority of players who get bumped up played some at the higher-level already in the year prior (usually in addition to their rated level). It's harder (but obviously not impossible) to get bumped up playing only at your rated level.

    BTW I am thinking mostly of singles. The same logic applies to dubs, but the waters are muddied because then your partner's rating also comes into play. In terms of bump-up odds, you're better off playing with a weaker partner (assuming you can carry him and still get results). Playing with a stronger partner increases the combined rating of your team which raises the bar of what results you are expected to get before you get any dynamic ratings increases.
     
  26. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    I am still 4.5 this year. but I understand your plight. it is very frustrating if there are so few guys in your level, you can't even have a competitive league. In that case, USTA should make a exception and let the 4.5 guys play in 4.0 leagues. but they must have a Lottery so that you can distribute the talent evenly throughout the league.
     
  27. SlapShot

    SlapShot Hall of Fame

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    Bah...well, I was a 4.5 for a few months I guess. Between grad school and some time off due to a bum shoulder, I don't think I played enough matches to keep my 4.5 rating. Odd that I literally played almost no matches between getting ESR'd to 4.5 and year-end bumping back down to 4.0.
     
  28. Playtennis

    Playtennis New User

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    question....i play on a try level team in mid states. i am now a 3.5 but have been playing 4.0 and was supposed to play 4.5 the next three matches. i know usta only allows a .5 play up so can i still play 4.5 this year?
     
  29. rainman007

    rainman007 Rookie

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    I was thinking no lottery. but if its a 4.0 league then the singles players would have to be 4.0 but the three doubles lines could choose to have 4.5/3.5 or 4.0/4.0 lines... that would be really helpful in increasing 4.5 and 5.0 leagues and on the lower half probably increase the 2.5 players participation as well.. if it where a 3.0 league the 3.0 player has to play singles but the dubs could be 3.5/2.5 etc..
     
  30. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    4.5/3.5, 3.5/2.5 guys match would not be that fun. weaker guy would get picked on all day long. It will become a match to hit to weaker guy at all times.
     
  31. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    There is already a rule in effect for next season that designates the highest available level for each league as a "+" league... for example, if there is a 4.5 level for a particular league season but not 5.0 level, then the 4.5 becomes 4.5+. The "+" league allows 2 players from the next highest level to be on the roster; they can only play at the #1 position (singles or dubs). So for example 4.5+ can have two 5.0s.
     
  32. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Whoops, sorry. You have to use Rating Search.
     
  33. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Ha, yes, but in that sense no different than Mixed. Actually mixed is worse; it's common to have a 4.5 guy and a 3.5 woman for example, and a 3.5 woman is weaker than a 3.5 guy, so the gap is even wider than with a 4.5/3.5 male combo.

    I personally stay far away from mixed for that very reason, but apparently it doesn't deter everyone since plenty of people play mixed.
     
  34. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Nooooooooooooo!

    Play 3.5. Work on your mental game and *crush* your opponents. Do not leak games or be satisfied with 6-4, 6-4 wins. That alone will be enough to move you to 4.0 if that is your goal.

    Play 3.5. Work on shots you do not now own. Perfect your net game, your overhead, your transition game, your topspin, your slice.

    Play 3.5. Consider it a victory lap and join the very top team(s). See how your game holds up at Districts/Sectionals/Nationals.

    Play 3.5. Take a long hard look in the mirror and be honest with yourself. What is it about your game that is holding you back? Fitness? Footwork? Some glaring weakness that is apparent to everyone but you? Now is the time to address it.

    Of course you should play 4.0 also. But I think being bumped down is a huge opportunity to fix whatever ails you.
     
  35. Douggo

    Douggo Semi-Pro

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    I think it was last year I got bumped back to 3.5 at ESR, was considered kryptonite to 4.0 team captains, played no matches and year-ended back at 4.0. Bottom line is you know you're on the cusp, and all you need to do is play more matches and you'll be there.
     
  36. SlapShot

    SlapShot Hall of Fame

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    What's confusing to me is the fact that I have almost exclusively played 4.5 in the last year and a half or so, and the one season I played at 4.0, I didn't lose a match.

    Either way, at this point I don't think I'm a steady 4.5 anyway because of this damned shoulder issue, but I still have a team of good guys and I'm enjoying playing, so whether I'm a 4.0 or 4.5 doesn't matter too much to me in the end.
     
  37. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Sorry, I don't agree at all.

    Often, there is no specific weakness holding a player back. Rather, it's that the players at the higher level just do everything better than you're used to, and it takes experience to adjust to that. They get more balls back on what you're used to being winners. They hit winners where you think they are going to be forced into a defensive shots. They give you less free points on errors. They force you into defensive positions. Etc.

    You're not going to address that by playing weaker players, even if you are dominating them.

    No doubt in my mind that you will improve most by playing at the higher level only, rather than splitting playing time between higher and current level.

    The only exception is if you have a fragile ego and need the confidence boost of still getting some wins at the lower level while you get your butt kicked at the higher level.
     
  38. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    This may depend to some extent on level.

    I think when you are a "developing" player, you need to play your level. When you are overmatched all the time, you can develop a lot of bad habits. If you are taking instruction, you can wind up abandoning technique under pressure. What is the point of spending 2 hours struggling to hit the ball the way you've been taught when you can barely reach the thing?

    There is certainly some benefit in playing up, of course. But I think it is overblown. I have seen players who always always always tried to play in the deep end of the pool. While the rest of us were making gradual but steady progress in developing our games, these players kept playing up and getting blown out.

    Most importantly, however, is that losing constantly makes you really good at losing. You have to learn how to close out matches, how not to let your game sink to the level of your weaker opponent, how not to choke or get conservative. These are important mental skills.

    Take me, for instance. I am working on a drop shot. My kick serve needs work. My slice is in its infancy. I can assure you that if I were bumped down to 3.5, I would play entire matches hitting nothing but kick serves, hitting drop shots, and slicing my head off. I cannot do these things in 4.0 matches because these shots still need work, and my partners would not stand for my developing my game in the middle of competitive matches.
     
  39. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    3.5 woman/4.5 man is actually quite a successful combo at 8.0 mixed. The trick is to have a 'ringer' or very strong 3.5.
     
  40. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Yup, I've watched enough mixed to know that... the 4.5 guy can take over against 4.0 man / 4.0 woman, as long as his 3.5 partner is not too much of a liability (e.g., she needs to be able to return the 4.0 guy's serve). But still that doesn't make it good tennis, at least by my definition, since much of the shot selection then revolves around specifically exploiting the weaker player and avoiding the stronger, rather than based on good percentage play.
     
  41. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    How does 4.0 feel to you, Topaz?
     
  42. goober

    goober Legend

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    One year I ran stats on mixed combos. A 4.5M/3.5F won about 80% of the time when they played a 4.0M/4.0F. If you looked closely at the 20% of losses, all of them involved 4.0 M that were really 4.5 level but computer ratings did not match their abilities. Also the 4.5 M tended to be mid to lower end of 4.5. A strong 4.5 M with a strong 3.5 F never lost to 4.0/4.0 combo.
     
  43. rainman007

    rainman007 Rookie

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    i agree if both players are out of level they will be sucessful regardless of gender a 35guy thats really a 40 with a 45 girl thats really 50 would do well and 2 40s thats really 45s would do good 2 i dont think gender is important just that each player wins against their own gender at their current level
     
  44. rainman007

    rainman007 Rookie

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    thats true but whatever your level is say 40 isnt one of the 2 always weaker or having a bad day so u exploit it or if ur playing singles and they dont have a backhand u dont exploit it....... thats usually the way it goes regardless that would provide playing opportunies 2 people where there arent enough players at their level to even field 1 team
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  45. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    I agree with this 100%. There is nothing helpful about playing at a "lower" level and working on different types of shots. All you are going to do is **** games away and make advancing to a higher level even more difficult.
     
  46. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Captain Tom Stacker got bumped down to 3.0. Epic USTA tears/sadness. Mixed Combo Tri Level apocalypse.
     
  47. duketennisgal

    duketennisgal Rookie

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    Question

    If a player is signed up to play one level in a tournament this weekend but has now been bumped up, can they still play that level or do they have to pull out?
     
  48. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    yes they can the new ratings take affect January 1
     
  49. Mongolmike

    Mongolmike Professional

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    A little off topic, but as regards a benchmark rating... how long does that last for you? One USTA year?

    Also, say you are a 3.5 and your team advances into the playoffs, you get benchmarked AND you get bumped to 4.0... you are now a 4.0b. I understand that a benchmark rating is sort of an indicator of equality across different regions... but the benchmark given was as a 3.5. You are no longer a 3.5, you are now a 4.0b, but you haven't played league against other 4.0s yet.... so you aren't really a benchmark 4.0, right?

    I know it doesn't really matter, but it seems misleading in a minor sort of way.
     
  50. goober

    goober Legend

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    Well I agree that gender isn't the deciding factor, the strongest combos I see are almost always 4.5M/3.5F. I haven't come across a 5.0F with a 4.5 rating playing 8.0 mixed. The very few females at that level seem to only play 9.0 or 10.0 mixed- around here at least.
     

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