2012 Year End Ratings

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by SuperLotto, Oct 28, 2011.

  1. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    It is misleading only if you interpret "4.0B" to mean "a player that achieved a benchmark playing at 4.0". You need to instead interpret it as "a player that advanced to playoffs last year and became benchmark for that reason that happened to have a year-end rating of 4.0".

    As has been noted before, being benchmark doesn't indicate anything about your level, it simply means you can be used as a benchmark due to having played in playoffs against teams from other areas/districts/sections.
     
  2. wrxinsc

    wrxinsc Professional

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    ^ well explained as usual.
     
  3. Mongolmike

    Mongolmike Professional

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    Thank you... and the benchmark rating is for one year (assuming the player does not advance the following year)?
     
  4. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    Correct.

    Now, to be complete, there are a few other ways to become benchmark, being DQ'd gives one a B rating I believe, but advancing to playoffs is the most common way to achieve one.
     
  5. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    Cindy, feels the same as when I played up the last two years. Only now I won't have to suffer through 7.0 mixed. Won't see as much 8.0 time, but after our run to sectionals last year, we will be kind of starting over anyway. I'll work on singles instead. Plus I'll be in the last semester of nursing school. I'll be fine thanks.

    As a 3.5 woman, I played two years of 8.0 with a 4.5 guy. I returned both 4.0 and 4.5 mens serves. Some of you need to get over yourself.
     
  6. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    3.5 Women cannot handle a 4.0 Male GOAT serve if he was playing at 100%. Especially tricky slice serves out wide. The 3.5 woman tends to panic and expose general weakness at the wicked 4.0 slice.

    Most 4.5 men drop 25% capacity/power when playing against low end 3.5 women. I don't know any 4.5 GOATs that serve at full speed in Mixed.

    When Fedace played Combo for our team he would serve at around 40% GOAT capacity.
     
  7. wrxinsc

    wrxinsc Professional

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    yes this is generally correct from personal experience. i was a solid high school #1 singles player at a strong New England team when i was young. had an opportunity as a walk on at a div 3 college with a strong team. couldn't make academics and sports work for me - so didn't play.

    took a 10 year hiatus from the sport, came back to the sport with a USTA evaluator rating me a 4.5. hung there based on speed and athleticism, and started a family. took another hiatus (this one 15 years and + 50lbs...) and played ok as a self rated 3.5. eventually dominated after a year or two and got bumped to 4.0 and now am finally getting to a point where i can deal with everything you mention in your post. the guys that beat me this year were all bumped to 4.5.

    spot on.
     
  8. wrxinsc

    wrxinsc Professional

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    this also correct form personal experience. i will not serve 100% to a 3.5 or lower lady in league match play. unless she is a major ringer. we had one of those at states last year and she handled everything anyone hit to her with patience. a clear indicator to me of an out of level lady.
     
  9. goober

    goober Legend

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    I think your first hint concerning the nature about JoelDali's post are the phrases "4.0 male GOAT" and "Fedace"
     
  10. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Fedace was the true 4.0 GOAT Mixed Combo legend. He is sorely missed by the 3.5 lady GOATs who he was so patient with.
     
  11. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    They can play with Nostradamus instead.
     
  12. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Luckily, the 100% level is only in the minds of these male 4.0 and 4.5 players. The reality is at the 40% level.
     
  13. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Most of my 4.5 players are 5.0 GOATs playing down .5 level to stay in contention for 4.5 Nationals.
     
  14. goober

    goober Legend

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    Obviously you have not encountered a 4.0 GOAT yet.
     
  15. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    And those are the ladies (out of level) that you will most likely find playing 8.0 with a 4.5 guy, especially at states and beyond. We had two on our team...and the other one was *leagues* better than me (and I was considered a pretty solid ringer...many believed I should have been moved up the year before).

    I've said it before, and will say it again...pure pace can be blocked. You start spinning that serve, and then I've got problems. Getting better at taking them early, but it is still a work in progress.
     
  16. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    A 4.0 can play 80% and still be a GOAT contender amongst his peers.

    A 4.5 frying pan serve at 75% capacity would crush a 3.5 female. It sad but true in my district. These chicks are more into drinking, free hot wings and making out than competitive tennis.
     
  17. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    Also, something else I"ve noticed since...well, yesterday...

    Many of my friends in my tennis group got bumped. I realized, many of them were recent self rates (as in the past few years) and had always enjoyed success at their level from the get go. For the first time, they are looking at a new level where they will win some matches, but also lose. And lots of them aren't used to losing.

    Meanwhile, a few of us have moved up after spending a few years at other levels, and suffering those growing pains. My first year at 3.5 was absolutely terrible.

    I wonder if that will 'break' some of them...that aren't used to losing...if they will leave tennis and go find something else.

    Its really two different experiences, and in the end run, I think it is better to know what to expect of a new level and to have that realization that you're going to pay your dues, but it is worth it to play against better opponents.
     
  18. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Return of serve is my weakest shot. I have played 4.5 guys. I am sure there must be an instance on record where I actually got the 4.5 guy's serve into play, but I have no memory of it.

    If you are able to hit decent returns in 8.0 mixed, you are way better than me.

    Then again, that's not saying much -- everybody is way better than me in 8.0 mixed!
     
  19. purple-n-gold

    purple-n-gold Professional

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    true that. strangest thing I've seen in my few yrs playing usta league were some bump downs. played a fellow this past weekend whose a 4.5 teaching pro closer to 5.0+. now is 4.0 after playing only mixed last year.
     
  20. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    I played BH side, which I think helped for ROS. The only ones I never ever got back were high kickers to my BH.

    Maybe my experience is an anomaly, but my partner and I played together for two years, and didn't drop a match until the finals of districts this year. I saw plenty of big serves, from some guys who are now 5.0. I think the trick is to not try to do too much. Just get it back in play.

    And if the other guy does hold, fine...as long as we held and we broke the opposing female, then we were fine.

    My partner and I worked well together...both singles players, haha! He is super tall (ask AQ, she saw us play this year) and my job was to be consistent and keep the ball in play until he could put it away.
     
  21. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    The closest part of my game to the 4.5 level is the serve. I have noticed that if I am trying to win and place serves carefully with spin the ladies have very little chance ... however if I am determined to show everyone the size of my .... racket .... and hit hard flat serves the women have a very easy time blocking it back into play. This is almost the complete reverse of the men.
     
  22. Angle Queen

    Angle Queen Professional

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    This is (or should be) the mantra for successful mixed play, especially at the higher levels.

    Here to confirm. Topaz was Ms. Consistency and said-partner was The Closer, a net monster and monster server. On a side note, of the pair they played the time I watched them, the opposing female was bumped....up....to 4.5 (deservedly, in my opinion...not so much based on that day's play but her record in our area throughout the season).

    But seriously, it's hard to beat a 4.5M/3.5W at 8.0 Mixed. Invariably, they're both at the top of their class. It's part of the reason I am against "combo" play for mixed. The potential disparity is even more pronounced in true Combo (6.5, 7.5, 8.5) but I don't like it even in "8.0". I mean, why then, don't we have 8.0 Womens? We don't. It's 4.0W and 4.0M...where everyone on the court is 4.0 (or less). Fewer mismatches, generally better, more even "play" -- and isn't that what NTRP is supposed to be designed for?

    /another rant...over
     
  23. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    Getting bumped up has done this for me ... I know that I will not be playing for districts or sectionals anytime soon as there are about 1000 4.5's better than me in my section. Even if my team does happen to make it, I would never see the court.

    So this is going to open up time for me to work on my game ... not in league matches but rather I can work on those things in all the free evenings I am going to have for the next season or two until I get better or bumped back down.
     
  24. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    That's a good point AQ...8.0 women's could/should also be 3.5+4.5!! (and men's too, I suppose) Never thought of it that way.

    That match was not a good returning match for me, but again...at districts all I saw were kickers wide to my BH. Worst was at sectionals in our second match against DC...I was almost in the court next to us, and STILL not getting the serve back! (a match we won 4 and 4...let the guy hold, but not the girl!!!)

    That philosophy does put pressure on my own service games, but I know my best mixed partner is an aggressive net player...so as long I get my first serve and placed reasonably well, things usually are good to go.

    Combo mixed is kind of a joke at this point...most of the 7.5 teams are really 8.5! My main partner got bumped to 4.5, and one of my two remaining partners also got bumped. And same story on Downs' team. That's what happens with the last league of the year I suppose. I wonder if having ESR around here would help alleviate that, or not matter at all?

    She got bumped to 4.5? :) I remember she had *solid* groundies, and was much more comfy at the baseline. We picked up on that pretty quickly. We had a nice match...quite contrary to the court next to us, which I thought was going to go to fisticuffs at one point.
     
  25. NumbersGuy

    NumbersGuy Rookie

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    Correct, being DQed does give one a B rating. This might be a new feature, but YE12 ratings certainly reflect this.
     
  26. NumbersGuy

    NumbersGuy Rookie

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    I'm surprised nobody has suggested this approach:

    1. Practice
    2. Take lessons
    3. Practice

    I believe you'll find it to be most effective. Possibly not the quickest, but with more staying power.
     
  27. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    On the subject of mixed:

    I would agree that mixed 8.0 should be 4.0 players only (and 3.5s playing up with 4.0s). 7.0 should be 3.5 players only. And so on. I mean, rec tennis is supposed to be fun. How is it fun for anyone to have some 4.5 guy fire twist serves at me for me to whiff them? With a 4.0 guy, I have a decent shot at the serve.

    Interesting idea about the woman receiving on the ad side. I used to receive on the ad side, but I have switched. I found it was important to have the guy's FH overhead in the middle as much as possible.
     
  28. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    One of my partners was a lefty. The other preferred fh side. He still took the overheads in the middle. Running around wasn't an issue.
     
  29. Alchemy-Z

    Alchemy-Z Hall of Fame

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    Do retirements count at all?

    I was wonder because I have 3 people retire against me last season and I had an undefeated record with no bump...so wondering if that is where I got diluted

    I had already won the first set in all 3 matches
    one reitred beginning of the 2nd set
    one 2nd game of second set
    3rd retired in the 10 point match break
     
  30. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    Was told you need to play 7 games for it to have any affect on rating or to count as a match played.
     
  31. NumbersGuy

    NumbersGuy Rookie

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    I've been told you have to have played one complete set, so I don't think 4-3, retired (i.e. 7 games) would count. But then 6-0, retired probably wouldn't count either (just as 6-0, 6-0 does not unless you're an S, A, or T). So maybe it's at least one set and at least 7 games.
     
  32. Playtennis

    Playtennis New User

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    Year end ratings

    So if I play 4.0 with a strong 4.0 I'm doomed unless we win?
     
  33. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    You aren't doomed, but yes, playing with a stronger partner raises the bar on your expected result, but that may or may not be a win.

    If your opponents are also strong 4.0s you may still be expected to lose, perhaps fairly big, so a close loss could still improve your rating.

    But if your opponents are weaker 4.0s, even as a 3.5, when playing with a strong 4.0, you may be expected to win. For example, say you are a strong 3.5 (3.45) and you play with a strong 4.0 (3.95). Your combined rating is 7.4 or average is 3.7 which is close to an "average" 4.0. If you play two opponents that are a bit below average (3.65), you would be expected to win (or technically, to win more games than the opponents).

    But with the strong partner, you very well may win, and if you don't (or again, technically if you lose more games than the opponents), the computer takes it as an indication that you and your partner weren't as strong as thought and you'd be adjusted down.

    If you were to play this same match but with a weaker 4.0 (3.65), your average would be 3.55 and you'd be expected to lose so a win (or even losing very very close) may improve your rating.
     
  34. g4driver

    g4driver Hall of Fame

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    And what do you make of this:

    a strong 3.5 player beats two other strong 3.5 players in very close matches 6-4, 4-6, 11-9 TB and 6-4, 6-7, 11-9 TB

    these matches count toward their DNTRPS (both losers to this guy get bumped to 4.0), but not the winner of these matches. Ok

    But both players who lost to the 3.5, lost two singles matches and are bumped to 4.0

    The 3.5 not bumped goes 7-1, with only one loss at doubles 3&4 and stays at 3.5

    any thoughts? The 3.5 had a 4.0E last fall, but no bump at the end of 2011.

    My explanation: the 3.5 lost in doubles to a strong 3.5 / average 3.5 (who had played lost 5 matches with a very weak 3.5)

    The one loss to the strong 3.5 / avg 3.5 was like App St beating Michigan and the USTA expected result was easy win. The loss pummeled the 3.5 who went 5-0 in singles and only loss this match.
     
  35. tennisplayer3275

    tennisplayer3275 Rookie

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    The USTA NTRP ratings haven't made sense in years...probably never will. They like to keep us all guessing.
     
  36. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    Entirely possible. Without more info and the specific players involved in all matches, I can't really say, but yes, a loss to a weaker team could be the match rating that pulls the overall rating down. But even the other wins may not have been matches that were rated high enough if the opponents were weak and/or the partner was strong.
     
  37. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    I disagree. They make sense, there are just a boat load of dependencies (partner's rating, opponents rating, at the time of the match, score of the match) that make trying to understand them difficult, particularly when one focuses on the win-loss record. Mind you, it is natural to focus on win-loss record as we are programmed to do that from other sports and without a lot of work, there isn't a way to know the ratings of all the opponents to figure it all out.

    Any accurate rating system (not that the NTRP is perfect of course) is going to be pretty complex, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.
     
  38. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    NO, but the best way to ensure you get bumped is to play up and play well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2012
  39. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    The other component of getting a ratings bump that has not been mentioned is the weighting of the playoffs for your year end rating. My understanding is that the USTA somehow uses a weighted average of your playoff performance and your dynamic rating to get your year end rating. No playoffs ... and they just use your dynamic rating at year end.

    What this means is that players who are bumped usually fall into two distinct categories.

    1) Good players that play up .... discussed at length here

    and

    2) Good players on good playoff teams.... Because they play in the playoffs these players likely get better opponents and doing well against these good players has a more dramatic effect on their ratings. Essentially because these matches against good players occurred in the playoffs they count double which can help you more.

    I think I fall into the second category ... I was good relative to my 4.0 peers within my district but I do not think I would have been bumped had I not performed well in sectionals the last two years.
     
  40. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Based on my own experience I believe this to be the case, but in my situation I think I *didn't* get the bump because of my poor performance at state. I had a pretty good year in league and beat three players who got bumped up and lost in singles to players who were both bumped up (I lost one time to a player who was DQed so I technically won that one). I also had some dominant wins over poor to moderate players at my level (1/1, 0/2, 0/2) late in the season.

    However, I think the reason I didn't get the bump is that I had a pretty poor state tournament going 0-2 in singles and 1-2 in doubles with every match decided one way or the other by a tiebreak. One of my singles opponents at state also got the bump but overall I think my record there was a large part of why I am still at my current level next year.

    On the other hand, as the saying goes, if you torture the data long enough it will confess to anything. Where's my cattle prod?
     
  41. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    You piqued my interest so I took a look at your matches.

    I don't believe Combo is counted in the Southern section, so your regular season record (on the court) would have been 8-5. I believe the cut-off for matches is 10/31 so the 3 late-season wins you mentioned aren't counted (after 11/1). While the DQ loss on the court counts as a win in the team standings, I believe the 6-1,6-1 score is used as-is for rating purposes.

    So, an 8-5 record is good, but by itself is not indicative a bump is appropriate. Couple that with you playing a few self rated players and it is possible that some of what you thought were your better matches didn't actually generate match ratings. But ultimately, it really depends on the specific scores and opponents.

    To get bumped, the majority of your results would need to be very good to great. If you play several opponents playing up, like I think you did, it is very hard to generate good match results for those matches. And even if you lose to good players that get bumped at the end of the year, you need the matches to be close to help you and you lost 3 and 1, 1 and 1, and 0 and 3 in 3 of the losses. These aren't close enough to help and probably still hurt your rating unless the opponents are way into the next level above you.

    So, you may not have been as close to being bumped as you thought. Nevertheless, if you did poorly in playoffs, that certainly doesn't help either. But you say the matches were tight and these were likely against stronger competition so they might not have hurt as much as you think.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2012
  42. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for the analysis.
     
  43. g4driver

    g4driver Hall of Fame

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    Email sent to you.
     
  44. Mongolmike

    Mongolmike Professional

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    Schmke, I don't have a horse in this race, but still want to give you props for your many helpful posts like this one. Thank you for your contributions.
    -Mike
     
  45. storypeddler

    storypeddler Semi-Pro

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    Nothing against you personally, man, but wouldn't you agree that, overall, a player like you just described yourself---one who went to and did well at sectionals---would almost certainly be moving into the very top echelon of your respective level? I would think that those players who perform very strongly at the sectional level are probably playing at a level above 95% or more of all players at their level nationally. At least for that time period. If that is true, it seems sort of reasonable to me that they would be bumped up---or al least not at all unreasonable that they were.
     
  46. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    I am not sure why I should take this personally ... I agree.

    I was surprised when I was not bumped last year, but I understand the time it takes to raise a rating. I was getting frustrated that the only competitive league matches I would get would not happen until the postseason.
     
  47. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    Yeah. You should have been bumped last year. If so, we would have made districts, LOL.
     
  48. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    I will share a story about that one day with you. I almost shoved my racket up our friend's rear at sectionals. I will not play for him again.
     
  49. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Please take your kinky sex talk elsewhere.
     

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